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The state of the OL - patience required.....

VaNtyLion

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Jul 11, 2001
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The program has never seen a situation where one position was so depleted and it’s pretty darn easy to blame someone, with Franklin, Donovan and Hand being primary targets here. However, look at the situation they were left with when coming on board in January of 2014 and how it projected to the ’14 and ’15 seasons when it comes to the OL.

Lets start from oldest to youngest.

Mangiro was recruited by Joe in the ’11 class yet he had not started a game until last season. He “should” be about as developed as he could be right now as a graduate student with senior eligibility. Yet even Donovan Smith could not carry this unit by himself.

In his 2 years as coach thanks to sanctions and how he addressed his program, OB signed just 6 offensive linemen.
  • One four star in Mahon
  • Two three stars in Gaia and Nelson (both with very average offer lists)
  • Three two stars in Dowery, Laurent and Hartman (who is no longer enrolled)
Stop and let that sink in.....

Now, Franklins first class should get a pass by reasonable people with him having less than a month to put it together and the program still under sanctions for the foreseeable future at the time. He brings in 4 three stars with the ’14 class with Beh, Bronson, Sorrell and Wright.

From ’12-’14, the only OL recruit we can point to with anything resembling a decent offer list from top schools is Mahon. The rest should be seen as projects…and oh yeah, half of 4 of those 10 guys mentioned here are redshirt freshman this season.

Looking ahead - In his first full recruiting cycle, Franklin pulled in Bates (4 star), Gonzalez and Jenkins (both of whom had offer lists infinitely better than any 3 star we had under BOB or Franklin’s first class), and we have verbals from Fries, Gellerstedt, McGovern and Menet (three 4-stars and a 3-star).


One of Paterno’s favorite sayings was it’s better to play a guy a game late than a game too early. There is much more talent in the lower class than the upper but can’t just snap your fingers and hope they wake up as seasoned vets. I believe Franklin when he says our best 5 guys right now are out there, but the problem is he has had very, very little to choose from when it comes to talented and experienced options and the others have zero college experience. That’s just reality.

The dominoes that put the OL in this condition were set into motion before anyone got here. Obviously this sucks for Hack since it’s hurting his own development. It sucks for game planning because there’s only so much you can do with a line in this condition. It’s a painful process but if we’re really tying to cast blame, you can’t be reasonable and put his on anyone in this program right now. That conclusion needs to be drawn another year or two down the line. Sure, everyone could do better, but how much? There’s a ceiling on this group that most have put unrealistically high and it's a simple matter of talent available…lest we forget how long it took the staff under Joe to put together a great OL given more talent - it was usually 3-4 year cycles with pretty painful retooling in between.
 
Don't understand how anyone can be making this a recruiting issue. There are 128 teams in FBS and 100 of them would love to have our talent problem. Most schools are able to produce a quality OL with minimal "high star" athletes.This is squarely about coaching, development, and strategy..and I mean lack thereof. There was not a D1 coach out there who would trade their OL for Penn State's. It was by far the worst performance of opening weekend and the proof is right here below. For amount of money that Franklin and staff are getting paid, this is inexcusable. We hate Urban Meyer but he is f-in brilliant at identifying talent, developing players quickly and building a team that maximizes its strengths. We got Rich Rod the 2nd. Big talker and there will be lots of talk about patience..but reality is he might not be good enough for Penn State and our expectations.

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/468/p3
 
The program has never seen a situation where one position was so depleted and it’s pretty darn easy to blame someone, with Franklin, Donovan and Hand being primary targets here. However, look at the situation they were left with when coming on board in January of 2014 and how it projected to the ’14 and ’15 seasons when it comes to the OL.

Lets start from oldest to youngest.

Mangiro was recruited by Joe in the ’11 class yet he had not started a game until last season. He “should” be about as developed as he could be right now as a graduate student with senior eligibility. Yet even Donovan Smith could not carry this unit by himself.

In his 2 years as coach thanks to sanctions and how he addressed his program, OB signed just 6 offensive linemen.
  • One four star in Mahon
  • Two three stars in Gaia and Nelson (both with very average offer lists)
  • Three two stars in Dowery, Laurent and Hartman (who is no longer enrolled)
Stop and let that sink in.....

Now, Franklins first class should get a pass by reasonable people with him having less than a month to put it together and the program still under sanctions for the foreseeable future at the time. He brings in 4 three stars with the ’14 class with Beh, Bronson, Sorrell and Wright.

From ’12-’14, the only OL recruit we can point to with anything resembling a decent offer list from top schools is Mahon. The rest should be seen as projects…and oh yeah, half of 4 of those 10 guys mentioned here are redshirt freshman this season.

Looking ahead - In his first full recruiting cycle, Franklin pulled in Bates (4 star), Gonzalez and Jenkins (both of whom had offer lists infinitely better than any 3 star we had under BOB or Franklin’s first class), and we have verbals from Fries, Gellerstedt, McGovern and Menet (three 4-stars and a 3-star).


One of Paterno’s favorite sayings was it’s better to play a guy a game late than a game too early. There is much more talent in the lower class than the upper but can’t just snap your fingers and hope they wake up as seasoned vets. I believe Franklin when he says our best 5 guys right now are out there, but the problem is he has had very, very little to choose from when it comes to talented and experienced options and the others have zero college experience. That’s just reality.

The dominoes that put the OL in this condition were set into motion before anyone got here. Obviously this sucks for Hack since it’s hurting his own development. It sucks for game planning because there’s only so much you can do with a line in this condition. It’s a painful process but if we’re really tying to cast blame, you can’t be reasonable and put his on anyone in this program right now. That conclusion needs to be drawn another year or two down the line. Sure, everyone could do better, but how much? There’s a ceiling on this group that most have put unrealistically high and it's a simple matter of talent available…lest we forget how long it took the staff under Joe to put together a great OL given more talent - it was usually 3-4 year cycles with pretty painful retooling in between.

Patience? Tell that to recruits who go elsewhere and players that transfer if Saturday's train wreck continues. Then what will you have in two or three years?
Exactly. Some people want to bench the amateur 20 year old QB after a bad game, but would give a $5M coach 5 years to "prove himself".
 
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Don't understand how anyone can be making this a recruiting issue. There are 128 teams in FBS and 100 of them would love to have our talent problem. Most schools are able to produce a quality OL with minimal "high star" athletes.This is squarely about coaching, development, and strategy..and I mean lack thereof. There was not a D1 coach out there who would trade their OL for Penn State's. It was by far the worst performance of opening weekend and the proof is right here below. For amount of money that Franklin and staff are getting paid, this is inexcusable. We hate Urban Meyer but he is f-in brilliant at identifying talent, developing players quickly and building a team that maximizes its strengths. We got Rich Rod the 2nd. Big talker and there will be lots of talk about patience..but reality is he might not be good enough for Penn State and our expectations.

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/468/p3
And here I thought it was HIT
 
The program has never seen a situation where one position was so depleted and it’s pretty darn easy to blame someone, with Franklin, Donovan and Hand being primary targets here. However, look at the situation they were left with when coming on board in January of 2014 and how it projected to the ’14 and ’15 seasons when it comes to the OL.

Lets start from oldest to youngest.

Mangiro was recruited by Joe in the ’11 class yet he had not started a game until last season. He “should” be about as developed as he could be right now as a graduate student with senior eligibility. Yet even Donovan Smith could not carry this unit by himself.

In his 2 years as coach thanks to sanctions and how he addressed his program, OB signed just 6 offensive linemen.
  • One four star in Mahon
  • Two three stars in Gaia and Nelson (both with very average offer lists)
  • Three two stars in Dowery, Laurent and Hartman (who is no longer enrolled)
Stop and let that sink in.....

Now, Franklins first class should get a pass by reasonable people with him having less than a month to put it together and the program still under sanctions for the foreseeable future at the time. He brings in 4 three stars with the ’14 class with Beh, Bronson, Sorrell and Wright.

From ’12-’14, the only OL recruit we can point to with anything resembling a decent offer list from top schools is Mahon. The rest should be seen as projects…and oh yeah, half of 4 of those 10 guys mentioned here are redshirt freshman this season.

Looking ahead - In his first full recruiting cycle, Franklin pulled in Bates (4 star), Gonzalez and Jenkins (both of whom had offer lists infinitely better than any 3 star we had under BOB or Franklin’s first class), and we have verbals from Fries, Gellerstedt, McGovern and Menet (three 4-stars and a 3-star).


One of Paterno’s favorite sayings was it’s better to play a guy a game late than a game too early. There is much more talent in the lower class than the upper but can’t just snap your fingers and hope they wake up as seasoned vets. I believe Franklin when he says our best 5 guys right now are out there, but the problem is he has had very, very little to choose from when it comes to talented and experienced options and the others have zero college experience. That’s just reality.

The dominoes that put the OL in this condition were set into motion before anyone got here. Obviously this sucks for Hack since it’s hurting his own development. It sucks for game planning because there’s only so much you can do with a line in this condition. It’s a painful process but if we’re really tying to cast blame, you can’t be reasonable and put his on anyone in this program right now. That conclusion needs to be drawn another year or two down the line. Sure, everyone could do better, but how much? There’s a ceiling on this group that most have put unrealistically high and it's a simple matter of talent available…lest we forget how long it took the staff under Joe to put together a great OL given more talent - it was usually 3-4 year cycles with pretty painful retooling in between.

Michigan is STILL paying for the sins of RichRod's ridiculous recruiting classes of 2010, 2011 (3 offensive line recruits - total - over two years). They are just now - FOUR YEARS LATER - getting to the point where they should have a solid offensive line.

PSU's problems had their genesis in 2013-2014. We are three years behind where Michigan is right now. No way this problem gets solved this year - probably not even next year.
It is what it is - whether people want to recognize it or not.

That said - Saturday's abortion was MUCH more than simply having an offensive line that is not D1 caliber (which would be bad enough in itself).....it also was compounded by a complete and utter lack of confidence by the OC and the QB.

THAT needs to be corrected pronto!! (if not, somebody has to be held accountable) But, even then, we are looking at having an offense that is maybe a 20 points per game offense against decent defenses - which, while it would be a whole lot better than what we saw on Saturday, would still be an offense that isn't going to win many games without a real strong defense.
 
Patience? Tell that to recruits who go elsewhere and players that transfer if Saturday's train wreck continues. Then what will you have in two or three years?

I'd wager to say recruits know perfectly well the depth situation on PSU thanks to what sanctions have done to the roster and recruiting. It's not like there's an expectation that this team was competing for a national title. Franklin made no secret last year about the OL's condition and what sanctions had done to the depth there.
 
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That said - Saturday's abortion was MUCH more than simply having an offensive line that is not D1 caliber (which would be bad enough in itself).....it also was compounded by a complete and utter lack of confidence by the OC and the QB.

THAT needs to be corrected pronto!! (if not, somebody has to be held accountable) But, even then, we are looking at having an offense that is maybe a 20 points per game offense against decent defenses - which, while it would be a whole lot better than what we saw on Saturday, would still be an offense that isn't going to win many games without a real strong defense.

You don't think the "not D1 caliber OL" is at least 99% responsible for a complete and utter lack of confidence by the OC and QB? So if Hack actually had time to pass consistently and a reliable running game we're still facing this confidence issue? I doubt that very much.
 
Gaia and dower u were d line recruits moved to offense
 
I'd wager to say recruits know perfectly well the depth situation on PSU thanks to what sanctions have done to the roster and recruiting. It's not like there's an expectation that this team was competing for a national title. Franklin made no secret last year about the OL's condition and what sanctions had done to the depth there.


I don't think they'll care. If they see sub-.500 PSU teams this year and next, more and more with opportunities to go to programs that achieve on the field will take them. Watch what happens to this class if Saturday's ineptitude is repeated throughout the season.
 
I don't think they'll care. If they see sub-.500 PSU teams this year and next, more and more with opportunities to go to programs that achieve on the field will take them. Watch what happens to this class if Saturday's ineptitude is repeated throughout the season.

The sky is falling? An unusually hysterical post by you, Art. Disappointing.
 
I'd wager to say recruits know perfectly well the depth situation on PSU thanks to what sanctions have done to the roster and recruiting. It's not like there's an expectation that this team was competing for a national title. Franklin made no secret last year about the OL's condition and what sanctions had done to the depth there.
Agree with VanityLion. OL is the single hardest unit to develop, and the sanctions hurt more than most people realized, I think. The lack of an experienced, effective OL is, IMO, compounded by the fact that Hack is a pocket style passer who simply has no foot speed. He cannot run away from sacks very well, and his speed running through his progressions also needs work. I expect the Lions to get better as the season goes along, but, as disappointed as I am, I know it's gonna take time.
 
a problem not really discussed is that the DEF cannot be depended on now. Temple was stuffed in their tracks before Wartman got hurt. The drop off was so bad the DEF was quite a bit weaker. add this to Bell being marginal for probably much of the season, and Haley evidently is out.

with all our DEF at full strength - Temple gets at MOST 10 pts and probably less. our DEF is now a couple TDs per game weaker until we see some gaps plugged. we will need 25pts per game to win 6. cannot depend on 10-14pt stalwart DEF.
 
It will take several years to develop a cohesive Offensive Line. It is what it is.[/QU
Several years? Ridiculous. This is not the NFL. They graduate faster than that. By that logic you can expect a good OL once every four years. And that is what they say every year. Sorry, this is not rocket science, its teaching big people to push others around or at least get in their way.
 
The sky is falling? An unusually hysterical post by you, Art. Disappointing.

Piss the **** off and learn to read. Nowhere have I said that the sky is falling and that things cannot change. What I have said is that Saturday's performance was disappointing across the board and cause for concern. Can that cause be erased over the course of the year? Of course it can...by winning. But if that doesn't happen, don't think that the people who count the most, players and recruits, won't notice. As someone who knows a whole lot more about football than anyone, or any combination of anyones, on this board once said "You are what your record says you are."
 
I think fatigue and the offense's inability to give the D any rest was a bigger factor to the defense melting in the 2nd half than the unit's talent. Can't afford any more injuries for sure though. The DL was pretty solid in penetration but tackling in the secondary was an issue much of the day
 
And once again...for good measure and to make me feel better...a big "thanks a lot ass-hat rod and your douchebag friends on the bot!!!" Because of your ineptness/corruptness/CYA-ness, we get to watch our boys get the holy shit beaten out of them by lesser programs. Where might we be now with no sanctions in our immediate past? I just can't let my anger/disgust for those sub-humans go!!!!
 
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Move Hack under center whereby he can go straight for 2 or more yards without taking a sack whenever there is a blitz. Establish a power running attack which can also thwart onslaught of blitzes. Mix in McSorley for a change, he is mobile.

Every team is going to blitz untill Hack can handle it and beat them.
 
The program has never seen a situation where one position was so depleted and it’s pretty darn easy to blame someone, with Franklin, Donovan and Hand being primary targets here. However, look at the situation they were left with when coming on board in January of 2014 and how it projected to the ’14 and ’15 seasons when it comes to the OL.

Lets start from oldest to youngest.

Mangiro was recruited by Joe in the ’11 class yet he had not started a game until last season. He “should” be about as developed as he could be right now as a graduate student with senior eligibility. Yet even Donovan Smith could not carry this unit by himself.

In his 2 years as coach thanks to sanctions and how he addressed his program, OB signed just 6 offensive linemen.
  • One four star in Mahon
  • Two three stars in Gaia and Nelson (both with very average offer lists)
  • Three two stars in Dowery, Laurent and Hartman (who is no longer enrolled)
Stop and let that sink in.....

Now, Franklins first class should get a pass by reasonable people with him having less than a month to put it together and the program still under sanctions for the foreseeable future at the time. He brings in 4 three stars with the ’14 class with Beh, Bronson, Sorrell and Wright.

From ’12-’14, the only OL recruit we can point to with anything resembling a decent offer list from top schools is Mahon. The rest should be seen as projects…and oh yeah, half of 4 of those 10 guys mentioned here are redshirt freshman this season.

Looking ahead - In his first full recruiting cycle, Franklin pulled in Bates (4 star), Gonzalez and Jenkins (both of whom had offer lists infinitely better than any 3 star we had under BOB or Franklin’s first class), and we have verbals from Fries, Gellerstedt, McGovern and Menet (three 4-stars and a 3-star).


One of Paterno’s favorite sayings was it’s better to play a guy a game late than a game too early. There is much more talent in the lower class than the upper but can’t just snap your fingers and hope they wake up as seasoned vets. I believe Franklin when he says our best 5 guys right now are out there, but the problem is he has had very, very little to choose from when it comes to talented and experienced options and the others have zero college experience. That’s just reality.

The dominoes that put the OL in this condition were set into motion before anyone got here. Obviously this sucks for Hack since it’s hurting his own development. It sucks for game planning because there’s only so much you can do with a line in this condition. It’s a painful process but if we’re really tying to cast blame, you can’t be reasonable and put his on anyone in this program right now. That conclusion needs to be drawn another year or two down the line. Sure, everyone could do better, but how much? There’s a ceiling on this group that most have put unrealistically high and it's a simple matter of talent available…lest we forget how long it took the staff under Joe to put together a great OL given more talent - it was usually 3-4 year cycles with pretty painful retooling in between.

I completely agree with you as to what the expectation of the offensive line should be. The sanctions are absolutely to blame for why there are so many issues with the line. So our minds are met there.

However, what did the staff do to take pressure off a problem we've now known about for 18 months? There are pretty basic things that high school coaches know to do when you're playing with a suspect offensive line, and this staff did absolutely NONE of those things.

To wit:
0 true RB screens.
0 blitz-countering draws
0 slants
0 quick hitches
0 bootlegs
1 bubble screen

What did we do? Ran the read option with a QB the opponent knows won't keep it and run (therefore NO misdirection). Ran slow developing routes. Ran route patterns that bunched players together instead of creating spacing.

So yeah, the OL expectations should be in check, as you said. But the staff doing absolutely NOTHING to account for that as best as possible and put them in a position to have a chance... Not even things the average high school coach knows....it's the most inexplicable thing I can remember seeing at this level of football.
 
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You don't think the "not D1 caliber OL" is at least 99% responsible for a complete and utter lack of confidence by the OC and QB? So if Hack actually had time to pass consistently and a reliable running game we're still facing this confidence issue? I doubt that very much.

Oh....I ABSOLUTELY think it is huge.....and when I said as much last week folks were shouting me down as some kind of pessimist.
I was saying LAST year at this time that the OL rebuild would take three years.

That said, there ARE things you can do to make this 10 point per game offense into a 20 point per game offense. I could write a book, but just a couple examples:

1 - PSU passed 35 times (well, TRIED to pass 35 times). 34 times the QB's launch point was 7 yards directly behind the center. PSU's staff HAD TO KNOW that pass protection was a huge issue. One thing you do - if you aren't coaching with your head up your ass - is relocate that launch point, so that the defense doesn't know exactly where they need to get to on every snap.
Slide the protection to one side. You only likely have 1/2 the field to work with, but at least you have time to get the throw off. Roll out Hackenberg if necessary, and run simple two man routes to the roll side.
PSU did NONE of that. Why? I haven't got a clue, but it was a HUGE coaching fail.

2 - One of the things I really liked about the hire of CJF and staff was their creativity with the run game at Vandy. Go back and watch those tapes - they were very creative in getting defenses out-manned at the point of attack - using "jumbo" formations where they put both OTs on one side, "counter trey" looks with both weak side offensive linemen pulling, pulling TE's into trap plays etc. I have not seen ANY of that in one year +. Our run game playbook looks like it could fit onto a post-it-note. Why? I haven't got a clue, but it was a HUGE coaching fail.

3 - Four and five wide sets - which I can understand not using last year, since we really only had two legit wideouts to start the year, until the true freshmen started to get involved later. But this year the WR corps is deep and experienced. You can run a lot of stuff out of 4 and 5 wide where you only need 1 - 1.5 seconds until release. That is absent from the playbook. Why? I haven't got a clue, but it was a HUGE coaching fail.

I could go on and on, but the point is clear. There are huge issues to overcome wrt the offensive line, and this OL isn't going to be "good" for a while.....but that doesn't excuse the staff simply throwing in the towel without making the adjustments that a junior high staff would be prepared to implement.

Right now, they have put themselves and this team into a situation where they have a HUGE issue to deal with - and it is primarily from the neck up. The confidence/mojo/swagger - whatever you want to call it - of this offense is absolutely pathetic. The offense isn't an I formation, or Spread offense, or wishbone or wing-T...........it is a FETAL POSITION offense right now.
Someone needs to step up big time......I don't know who its going to be.

IMHO
 
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The program has never seen a situation where one position was so depleted and it’s pretty darn easy to blame someone, with Franklin, Donovan and Hand being primary targets here. However, look at the situation they were left with when coming on board in January of 2014 and how it projected to the ’14 and ’15 seasons when it comes to the OL.

Lets start from oldest to youngest.

Mangiro was recruited by Joe in the ’11 class yet he had not started a game until last season. He “should” be about as developed as he could be right now as a graduate student with senior eligibility. Yet even Donovan Smith could not carry this unit by himself.

In his 2 years as coach thanks to sanctions and how he addressed his program, OB signed just 6 offensive linemen.
  • One four star in Mahon
  • Two three stars in Gaia and Nelson (both with very average offer lists)
  • Three two stars in Dowery, Laurent and Hartman (who is no longer enrolled)
Stop and let that sink in.....

Now, Franklins first class should get a pass by reasonable people with him having less than a month to put it together and the program still under sanctions for the foreseeable future at the time. He brings in 4 three stars with the ’14 class with Beh, Bronson, Sorrell and Wright.

From ’12-’14, the only OL recruit we can point to with anything resembling a decent offer list from top schools is Mahon. The rest should be seen as projects…and oh yeah, half of 4 of those 10 guys mentioned here are redshirt freshman this season.

Looking ahead - In his first full recruiting cycle, Franklin pulled in Bates (4 star), Gonzalez and Jenkins (both of whom had offer lists infinitely better than any 3 star we had under BOB or Franklin’s first class), and we have verbals from Fries, Gellerstedt, McGovern and Menet (three 4-stars and a 3-star).


One of Paterno’s favorite sayings was it’s better to play a guy a game late than a game too early. There is much more talent in the lower class than the upper but can’t just snap your fingers and hope they wake up as seasoned vets. I believe Franklin when he says our best 5 guys right now are out there, but the problem is he has had very, very little to choose from when it comes to talented and experienced options and the others have zero college experience. That’s just reality.

The dominoes that put the OL in this condition were set into motion before anyone got here. Obviously this sucks for Hack since it’s hurting his own development. It sucks for game planning because there’s only so much you can do with a line in this condition. It’s a painful process but if we’re really tying to cast blame, you can’t be reasonable and put his on anyone in this program right now. That conclusion needs to be drawn another year or two down the line. Sure, everyone could do better, but how much? There’s a ceiling on this group that most have put unrealistically high and it's a simple matter of talent available…lest we forget how long it took the staff under Joe to put together a great OL given more talent - it was usually 3-4 year cycles with pretty painful retooling in between.
Great post
 
Piss the **** off and learn to read. Nowhere have I said that the sky is falling and that things cannot change. What I have said is that Saturday's performance was disappointing across the board and cause for concern. Can that cause be erased over the course of the year? Of course it can...by winning. But if that doesn't happen, don't think that the people who count the most, players and recruits, won't notice. As someone who knows a whole lot more about football than anyone, or any combination of anyones, on this board once said "You are what your record says you are."

I think the record is 0-1. A bit early to talk about the impact on recruiting of two losing seasons.

But thanks for your additional comments. Looks like you give out criticism a whole lot better than you take it.
 
Agree with VanityLion. OL is the single hardest unit to develop, and the sanctions hurt more than most people realized, I think. The lack of an experienced, effective OL is, IMO, compounded by the fact that Hack is a pocket style passer who simply has no foot speed. He cannot run away from sacks very well, and his speed running through his progressions also needs work. I expect the Lions to get better as the season goes along, but, as disappointed as I am, I know it's gonna take time.

I don't have any idea if it is the hardest unit to develop.

I know that at Penn State, it seems to have always been the hardest unit to develop. Some other schools have difficulty with that unit as well.

But, most schools do not at all seem to have the continuous and repetitive difficulty with the offensive line that we have seen since years before there were any sanctions. Don't talk to me about sanctions. Sanctions is a tired excuse for what we have seen year in and year out for what seems like forever.

I think we are being self-defeating if we simply decide to accept that O line is hard. I personally just do not care how hard it is. Get. It. Done.
 
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