The art of stealing a time out
- Thread starter PearlSUJam
- Start date
It wasn't his first time.
Mike Vrabel took a penalty to work the clock late in Titans' win over Jets
NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- With 2:28 remaining in the game and facing a second-and-2 from the Jets at the New York 30-yard line, the Titans swallowed a 12-men on the field penalty.The odds were the Jets would get the 2 yards in two downs.The Tita
www.paulkuharsky.com
I don’t understand. There was like 3:25 on the game clock and :23 on the play clock. And after the penalty the game clock was stopped at 3:05 and the opponent got 5 yards. I’m not following how it saved the flaming T’s 40 seconds.
It was 2nd & 1. He assumed that HOU would get a first down on either the 2nd or 3rd down play. Assuming they stayed in bounds, that would have used up at least :40. Then, HOU would have started another set of downs.
Instead, with the penalty, they started their 1st down play at 3:05.
NFL owners and officials are meeting on a new rule change in 3,2,1.
They could have. But there is also the possibility that a turnover is committed or major a penalty called that made scoring much more difficult.
it was a smart play by Titans. I remember watching a college game several years back with something in the less than 30 seconds left in the game and 4th down with the team winning having to punt the ball. So essentially the team behind had a punt return and maybe a couple of plays. the team punting literally put 15 people on the field to ensure they didn't give up a punt return. The receiving team had to decline the penalty otherwise the play clock would have been about 8 seconds less time and the punting team would have just kept punting the ball with 15 players until eventually the clock ran out.
Good question. It would take some major stones to decline in that situation.
"Johnathan Joseph gives Vrabel the “WTF” look when Kalu comes on and Vrabel assures him it’s okay and then makes a show of trying to get him back off to make sure the ref sees it and — crucially — to keep Romeo Crennel from suspecting something is up and declining the penalty."
Another ingenious tactic is the one Rich Rid employed against Penn State in 2009 at Michigan.
1. Penn State its leading 19-7 with 44 seconds remaining in 1st half.
2. UM has the ball 1st-and-goal at the 8 ... but has no timeouts left.
3. 1st down is a RUN ... UM back is tackled in bounds at the 2 yard line
4. REF STOPS THE CLOCK ... even Sean McD (the guy from Syracuse who announces with Millen) states that the ref should not have stopped the clock ... JoePa is going nuts on the sideline and finally gets the ref to start the clock again
5. Michigan is able to have time to kick a FG on 4th down thanks to the stopped clock after the 1st down run. The FG cut the lead to 19-10. Fortunately, Penn State won the game handily in the 2nd half, negating the impact of the referee timeout.
The referee crew that game? John O'Neill and Friends. And this game was 2 years before his infamous "Shut up; you're lucky to be playing" quote to Devon Still against Wisconsin in 2011. That's some serious bias with Mr. O'Neill.
1. Penn State its leading 19-7 with 44 seconds remaining in 1st half.
2. UM has the ball 1st-and-goal at the 8 ... but has no timeouts left.
3. 1st down is a RUN ... UM back is tackled in bounds at the 2 yard line
4. REF STOPS THE CLOCK ... even Sean McD (the guy from Syracuse who announces with Millen) states that the ref should not have stopped the clock ... JoePa is going nuts on the sideline and finally gets the ref to start the clock again
5. Michigan is able to have time to kick a FG on 4th down thanks to the stopped clock after the 1st down run. The FG cut the lead to 19-10. Fortunately, Penn State won the game handily in the 2nd half, negating the impact of the referee timeout.
The referee crew that game? John O'Neill and Friends. And this game was 2 years before his infamous "Shut up; you're lucky to be playing" quote to Devon Still against Wisconsin in 2011. That's some serious bias with Mr. O'Neill.
I haven't verified, but I read that Rich Gannon was doing color comm. for both games. He criticized Vrabel for a bad penalty both times. He apparently still doesn't understand that he did it on purpose. Fool me once....It wasn't his first time.
Mike Vrabel took a penalty to work the clock late in Titans' win over Jets
NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- With 2:28 remaining in the game and facing a second-and-2 from the Jets at the New York 30-yard line, the Titans swallowed a 12-men on the field penalty.The odds were the Jets would get the 2 yards in two downs.The Tita
I did see Gannon chiding the teams about 2 pt conversions and holding up his little 2pt conv card from 1987, touting as the bible. Not a big analytics guys. Go figure.
Wandering Spectator
Well-Known Member
I remember when Bret Bielema found a loophole to burn the clock after they scored. Fine line between being smart and cheating. Clearly, Vrabel’s wasn’t as obvious but I lost any respect I had (if I had any to start) for Bielema after that.
i think beilema went offsides on the kick-off such that PSU could not return the kick-off (as wiscy kick-off team was 10 yards downfield before the kicker even kicked the ball).
The side judge stopped the clock, not O’Neill. Plus, we probably should have been using time outs there, not allowing the clock to run.
Looking at it, the clock stopped for 11 seconds . They kicked the FG with 13 seconds remaining.
First, I didn't say it was O'Neill himself who stoped the clock. I stated that it was O'Neill and Friends who officiated the game. I don't know the names of every Big Ten official.
Second, why would Penn State use its timeouts with 44 seconds left in the half while Michigan had a 1st and goal at the PSU 8 with no timeouts of its own?
You said “that’s some serious bias with Mr. O’Neill”...the side judge blowing the clock dead when he shouldn’t doesn’t seem like “serious bias with Mr. O’Neill”.
As for the clock...the odds of Michigan running out of time seem very remote (reason they were at all close was the bad snap on 2nd down). With 3 time outs left, I’m calling TO to get another shot at the ball.
The problem with declining the penalty: say for some reason they don't make the first down or score in the next three plays. Maybe a fumble, penalty sets them back, or just gets stuffed. they end up losing and the fans and the media 'experts' would go crazy all the next week excoriating the coach for declining and getting a sure first down five yards closer.
Fair enough response for me. Although I disagree, my opinion has no more merit than yours. Plus, I am unabashedly biased against John O'Neill.
In my mens division 2 and 3 rugby leagues, the refs were prone to penalizing you for being dishonest or being dickheads. You talked back,, 10 meter penalty. You skirted the rules....10 meters or yellow card...Anyways,I have also heard that the NFL has rules that give officials more runway to flag teams for being bad sports, but I've never seen it enforced. Other than the 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, there are not any Joe Wests or Angel Hernandez's in the NFL that I can tell.
Exactly. You decline and don't get the first down or score....you'd be skewered.
So public opinion figures into coaching decisions?
Typically what’s good for one team is bad for the other. In this case if Tennessee would benefit from the penalty then Houston should decline it — assuming both sides have equal information. My point is it wasn’t unambiguously favorable for Tennessee to do this intentionally.
Actually, Malcolm Gladwell did a podcast on this and concluded yes in some cases. The example he used was hockey. If you are down by, say 2 goals, there are strong analytics that say pull your goalie a lot earlier than most do. Coaches don't necessarily take the choice that gives them the best chance to win because of fear of getting roasted by the fanbase if they lose.
I think you can apply this to football coaches going for it on 4th down. Before it became widely accepted to go for it in unusual situations, coaches would punt/kick FGs in situations that diminished their chances of victory.
Bielema exploited a stupid rule to run time off the clock. The NCAA was too dumb to realize the loophole and Bielema exposed it to them. I believe they changed the rule for the following season. The rule at the time was the clock started running the moment the kicker's foot touched the ball, a change from the usual rule of starting the clock when the returner touches it. Wisky kicked off and the clock ran until the returner was tackled, then the penalty was enforced and they kicked off again Of course some time elapsed between the kick and the tackle, eliminating the chance for PSU to get the ball back with time on the clock. I don't view stuff like this as cheating at all, it's smart coaching even if it works against us as it did in that game.
The officials should have called a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. So it is on them.
LdN
That would have done very little to affect the final result, which was to work the clock down to zero. If you have to kick off from the 5 yard line, just pooch it 15 yards to limit potential for a return.
I agree that the officials failed to enforce sportsmanship and that was a wrong, but it was the second wrong, and it does not negate the first. The officials failed to recognize an unprecedented situation and failed to take action to correct it. Bielema conceived the idea in advance and chose to implement an unsportsmanlike act in the game. Beilema’s act was an overt choice. The official’s failure does not take ownership of Bielema’s unsportsmanship. That still rests with Bielema and it is his integrity flaw.
Clock was already being stopped from the penalties they were taking on every kick.
I would have zero issues with being known as the person that did it if I were in such a position. I don't know how playing by the rules that you've been given could be considered for an unsportsmanlike penalty, although I'm not familiar with all of the conditions for such penalties in the rulebook. If there's some rule about intentionally taking penalties for ulterior motives then maybe I'd reconsider, but I doubt such a rule exists. I can pretty much guarantee that If PSU had done this to some other team this board would be full of people praising our coaches for being smart enough to exploit the rules.
You want to call unsportsmanlike before the play even starts? They haven't done anything wrong until the ball is kicked.
Have you seen the play? Having a guy run deliberately 10 yards ahead of the kicking line is before the play.
They call plenty of penalties before plays. False start for example before the ball is hiked.
Offsides running unabated to the QB.
LdN
I watched it live.
They were offsides and the ref still didn't blow it dead because they don't do that on kickoffs. You certainly can't call an unsportsmanlike for something that could be about to happen. You are trying to retroactively change the rule book.
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