Starting DL needs to play more....

[BullrunLion]

I am aware of the philosophy of having those guys fresh for the 4th quarter, but there is also a noticeable difference between the first and second string guys. We are ahead 13-0, and I don't know if you noticed, but all 4 starting DL were out during that long drive. They were never put back in. They just had halftime and played only a couple of plays in the second half, do there was no reason to be tired. But IMO, having them out gave Army momentum. For the record, go look at the Temple game. When we had them pinned back at the goal line and were ahead 10-0, our starting DL was taken out. Result, long drive and momentum switch. Starters are starters because they are better and they should play as much as possible.

 

[NittanyDave]

It is obvious this coaching staff is playing for next year and beyond.

 

[bjf1984]

It is obvious this coaching staff is playing for next year and beyond.

They have always done this

If you watch.....EVERY game they sub out the starting D Line on the third series - regardless of whether the opposition has started with 2 3 and outs, or two long dries.

(Pet peeve of mine since 2014.......last year against Michigan it may very well have cost us the game - I won't go through all the details, but you can go back and review that game if you want to REALLY get POed about this substitution pattern)

 

[GregPSU]

I am aware of the philosophy of having those guys fresh for the 4th quarter, but there is also a noticeable difference between the first and second string guys. We are ahead 13-0, and I don't know if you noticed, but all 4 starting DL were out during that long drive. They were never put back in. They just had halftime and played only a couple of plays in the second half, do there was no reason to be tired. But IMO, having them out gave Army momentum. For the record, go look at the Temple game. When we had them pinned back at the goal line and were ahead 10-0, our starting DL was taken out. Result, long drive and momentum switch. Starters are starters because they are better and they should play as much as possible.

2nd TD was scored against the 2nd DL and 2nd LB's. Actually some of those players were 3rd string starting the season but are now twos due to injuries. They need to start subbing in one or two at a time, not the complete unit

 

[hagberg]

2nd TD was scored against the 2nd DL and 2nd LB's. Actually some of those players were 3rd string starting the season but are now twos due to injuries. They need to start subbing in one or two at a time, not the complete unit

The Army QB scored because our starting safety still refuses to employ basic tackling technique, i.e., wrap your arms around the guy you're trying to tackle. Lucas was coming on an angle, but Haley was gaining from behind and actually had a better shot at making the tackle and perhaps even stripping the ball, considering the way the Army QB was carrying it. Instead, Lucas tried to hit the QB with his shoulder to knock him out of bounds. Not only did it not work, he also knocked Haley out of the play.

 

[psuro]

2nd TD was scored against the 2nd DL and 2nd LB's. Actually some of those players were 3rd string starting the season but are now twos due to injuries. They need to start subbing in one or two at a time, not the complete unit

Both TDs were scored against the 2nd team DL.

 

[21Guns]

Nearly every score this defense has given up this year, has come against the #2 DL unit. In fact, it is NOT common for teams to sub in their #2's NEARLY as much as Franklin does it. I saw Ohio State's 2nd DL unit, on the field ONE time in 4 quarters against Indiana.


One time. Go watch the game again and you'll see the same thing.

 

[Ranger Dan]

It is wise/good coaching to rotate other players in games, especially in games where we can afford to give meaningful minutes as opposed to mop up time. Similarly, I have a hunch that some of the injured starters would have played this week if we were playing a more physically talented team. Taking the cautious route give more time for healing while giving the other guys more experience. This is a win win, and the only benefit for the OOC schedule that we have.

 

[BBrown]

The Army QB scored because our starting safety still refuses to employ basic tackling technique, i.e., wrap your arms around the guy you're trying to tackle. Lucas was coming on an angle, but Haley was gaining from behind and actually had a better shot at making the tackle and perhaps even stripping the ball, considering the way the Army QB was carrying it. Instead, Lucas tried to hit the QB with his shoulder to knock him out of bounds. Not only did it not work, he also knocked Haley out of the play.

I think the problem with Lucas is that he's hurt.

 

[bjf1984]

It is wise/good coaching to rotate other players in games, especially in games where we can afford to give meaningful minutes as opposed to mop up time. Similarly, I have a hunch that some of the injured starters would have played this week if we were playing a more physically talented team. Taking the cautious route give more time for healing while giving the other guys more experience. This is a win win, and the only benefit for the OOC schedule that we have.

Building depth is certainly a good thing.
I mentioned in a thread a couple weeks ago that one of the benefits to the defense was the utilization of a large number of guys getting quality minutes.

That said....completely scripted rotations.....regardless of the game situations......has (and will) cost this team victories.

Substitutions should be done with a consideration to the game conditions.

The Michigan situation I referenced in the earlier post:

PSU opened with an 11-play, 5 1/2 minute offensive drive (FG)
Michigan had a 6 play drive that ended with a TD (the play where Keiser mis-played the deep ball allowing for a long TD pass)
PSU answered with ANOTHER 11 play, minute drive (FG)
On the next possession, Zettel picked off a Michigan pass, and set PSU up with good field position, the PSU offense capitalized with a 4 play TD drive.
__________________

At that point:

- PSU was up 13-7
- The PSU offense was rolling to a degree it had not all year (and never would again) 3 Possessions, 3 Scores, 26 Plays, 13 1/2 minutes TOP
- We were 3 minutes into the 2nd quarter (about an hour of elapsed "real" time since the start of the game)
- During that hour, the PSU defense had been on the field for a TOTAL of 4:45 of the 18:02 of elapsed time
- The Michigan defense, on the other hand, was already gassed

PSU subbed out the starting defensive front on the next possession. Why? Because it was he third possession, and that was the script.
Michigan then - against the 2nd team - put together an 11 play, 7 minute drive.....completely negating all of the benefits PSU had accrued in dominating the TOP for the first 18 minutes


Penn State would not score again the rest of the game.....and lost 18-13.


_______________________________

Maryland game was almost a carbon copy:

- 1st 2 possessions, UMd had the ball for a total of 3:26
- PSU offense, which would be sluggish all day, did manage an early FG and a 3-0 lead
- Third possession.....in comes the 2nd team (after ANOTHER shanked punt set up UMd at midfield). Was the D tired after playing for three minutes on a cool, damp day?
- UMd then puts together an 8 play TD drive (their only drive of the game, until the had a 20 yard TD drive in the 4th Q after PSU fumbled a kickoff)

UMd wins 20-19

 

[CappyToCJF]

I am aware of the philosophy of having those guys fresh for the 4th quarter, but there is also a noticeable difference between the first and second string guys. We are ahead 13-0, and I don't know if you noticed, but all 4 starting DL were out during that long drive. They were never put back in. They just had halftime and played only a couple of plays in the second half, do there was no reason to be tired. But IMO, having them out gave Army momentum. For the record, go look at the Temple game. When we had them pinned back at the goal line and were ahead 10-0, our starting DL was taken out. Result, long drive and momentum switch. Starters are starters because they are better and they should play as much as possible.

No they don't.

It is common knowledge that a DL expends much more energy fighting to get thru and around the OL in chasing RB's and QB's, requiring substitution in order to maintain effective DL play.

They were relatively fresh for the last Army drive and stopped that drive to win the game.

 

[bjf1984]

No they don't.

It is common knowledge that a DL expends much more energy fighting to get thru and around the OL in chasing RB's and QB's, requiring substitution in order to maintain effective DL play.

They were relatively fresh for the last Army drive and stopped that drive to win the game.

Uh....lets be honest.

If Army doesn't fumble that snap and get themselves "behind the sticks", they likely continue that drive right down the field.

Prior to the fumbled snap, that Army drive against our "rested" defense was 6 straight runs of:
8, 4, 3, 6, 2, and 14 yards

Driving the ball right down the field from their own 15, to a first and 10 on the PSU side of the 50.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Yeah, I think has this defense thing down.

 

[bvillebaron]

I think the problem with Lucas is that he's hurt.

I agree, he played like a beast in the Rutgers game.

 

[hagberg]

I think the problem with Lucas is that he's hurt.

You're right that he's coming off an injury, but he's been doing the same thing all season. Somewhere along the line, he developed the habit of trying to knock people down instead of tackling them. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Too many other times, IMO. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that Lucas sucks by any means. Just that he could be much better with sounder fundamentals, and that in this case I think it cost a TD. And who knows, Army may have still scored.

 

[hagberg]

Uh....lets be honest.

If Army doesn't fumble that snap and get themselves "behind the sticks", they likely continue that drive right down the field.

Prior to the fumbled snap, that Army drive against our "rested" defense was 6 straight runs of:
8, 4, 3, 6, 2, and 14 yards

Driving the ball right down the field from their own 15, to a first and 10 on the PSU side of the 50.

You're focusing on the "bend" instead of the "don't break".....

 

[bvillebaron]

Uh....lets be honest.

If Army doesn't fumble that snap and get themselves "behind the sticks", they likely continue that drive right down the field.

Prior to the fumbled snap, that Army drive against our "rested" defense was 6 straight runs of:
8, 4, 3, 6, 2, and 14 yards

Driving the ball right down the field from their own 15, to a first and 10 on the PSU side of the 50.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, what a great Christmas we would all have, right. The facts are that (1) Army did fumble that snap and PSU's defense stopped them on 4th down to seal the game; and (2) both of Army's TDs were scored with the second DL and several back up LBs on the field. Some of these comments remind me of the exchange I had yesterday with a guy at church who walked in and said to someone standing near me "Wow, how about Notre Dame" and I said "they lost, right?". Maybe I am mistaken but PSU won the game on Saturday, right?

 

[lbujoe33]

The defensive line said they were winded.

 

[BBG65]

I've certainly noticed the substitution pattern on the defensive front. We knew right from the time Franklin and staff came here that was their philosophy. Apparently, they feel there are long term benefits from this practice, but it has definitely hurt them in the games to this point. Opponents have been much more successful against the 2nd units. Because of weak recruiting from the sanction/scandal years, there is a big drop-off in talent going to the 2nd unit on the DL and LB.

 

[novaclassof90]

No problem with rotating guys in first 3 qtrs. But come the 4th qtr in a tight game, you MUST have the 1st teamers out there. Isn't that the entire reason you rotate early, so those guys are fresh in the 4th?????

 

[21Guns]

Again. Check Ohio State, Michigan, and Michigan State.

Just watched their games again. Total average of each teams 2nd units on the field? One possession per game. One.

 

[GregInPitt]

Again. Check Ohio State, Michigan, and Michigan State.

Just watched their games again. Total average of each teams 2nd units on the field? One possession per game. One.

I don't believe you watch oh-high-ya st closely. They have a deep DL and LJ's coaching pattern is to substitute liberally to keep his DL fresh. He may not execute the wholesale unit substitutions that we are seeing at PSU, but he always substitutes. It's one of his selling points to recruits as well - that when you come in you get on the field if you are talented.

I look for PSU to play the starting DL much more against the better teams. We really do need the backup DL (DT's especially since both will likely be gone next year as well as Barney) to get some real experience to build for 2016. It looks to be paying off to me with White. He is starting to make plays and him and Cothren will likely be starting next year and be backed up by redshirt and true freshmen.

 

[shak66_psu]

I am aware of the philosophy of having those guys fresh for the 4th quarter, but there is also a noticeable difference between the first and second string guys. We are ahead 13-0, and I don't know if you noticed, but all 4 starting DL were out during that long drive. They were never put back in. They just had halftime and played only a couple of plays in the second half, do there was no reason to be tired. But IMO, having them out gave Army momentum. For the record, go look at the Temple game. When we had them pinned back at the goal line and were ahead 10-0, our starting DL was taken out. Result, long drive and momentum switch. Starters are starters because they are better and they should play as much as possible.

Very good post and very good topic. And I couldn't agree more... do you really have to sub all 4 as a unit? Makes no sense.. do you really have to sub without game considerations? Makes even less sense... but what do we know?

 

[BullrunLion]

Again, I am not against some substitution, but why all 4 at once, and why do we have to have a rotation without any consideration of the game situation. Another thing for me is because the linebackers and secondary are banged up to say the least, it is more important to have our best DL in the game as much as possible, because we don't have our best LBs and DBs.

 

[leftcoastdoug]

Lou Holtz (love or or hate him), said he hated playing the week after Navy because they were a cut block team. Army was dropping at the knees when they ran outside. Both are option squads. I think these coaches are smarter then you give them credit for. They were saving these guys for a difficult test against Indiana.

 

[joeparules]

2nd TD was scored against the 2nd DL and 2nd LB's. Actually some of those players were 3rd string starting the season but are now twos due to injuries. They need to start subbing in one or two at a time, not the complete unit

The two players at the point of attack that had a chance to stop that long QB run from developing were Antoine White (3rd string) and Ben Kline (3rd string). Army blocked that play to perfection so I'm not saying first stringers would have stopped it, but ...

 

[mmp121]

http://www.blackshoediaries.com/201...-test-penn-state-nittany-lions-james-franklin

Per BSD,

The starting DL played 63% of the time (36 of 57 snaps).

I think that's about the right balance (2/3 of the game).

I'm sure the coaches are probably aiming for a 67 / 33 split in terms of snaps played.