ADVERTISEMENT

Seven Years Ago Today

One of the key false narratives in this case that the OAG has sold the public is that v2 is unknown. I say hogwash. AM is v2. There is no doubt in my mind. If anyone ever did a real investigation it would be crystal clear.

If I think a kid may have been abused and I don’t know who the kid is I am certainly not going to go ask the perpetrator for the name of the kid he may or may not have been abusing. That’s illogical.
Further, you say protective services could have found the kid if they wanted. That implies that you don’t think they wanted to find a potentially abused child. I have worked with them on many, many cases over the years. I have dealt with some investigators that I did not feel did their job well. I’ve dealt with some that I felt were burnt out. I’ve dealt with some that I believe completely missed clear cases of abuse right in front of their faces. Not one time have I ever felt that they made a conscious decision to not find the truth. Again, I have believed they have missed some cases but not because they did not want to find out.
 
I am friends with Gary Schultz and he has let me know that he doesn't believe that Sandusky is guilty of the charges that he was convicted of. Gary has recorded an interview with John Ziegler that I believe will be released as soon as Gary if off of probation, which I believe will be in July. Ziegler has said it is one of the best, if not the best interview that he has done. He said that Gary explains why he knows that Sandusky is innocent. Part of the reason is that he knows that the v2 incident happened on Dec. 29, 2000. I can't wait for this interview to be released.

John Ziegler has stated that Spanier told him that he believes that Sandusky is innocent.

I am not aware of any comments that Tim Curley has stated publicly or privately one way or the other whether he currently believes that Sandusky is guilty or not. On advice of counsel, Curley refused to discuss the particulars in his interview with Snedden for Spanier's security clearance renewals unlike both Schultz and Spanier who did. That being said, it is clear that Curely did not believe that Sandusky was a pedophile in 2001 and I don't believe there has been anything that has come to light since then that would have changed his opinion. I am fairly certain that if Curley speaks on the subject in the future, he will not say anything that will contradict Schultz or Spanier.

Schultz stated his opinion on the pages of Snedden's report. I have included some snippets from that report where Schultz explains his opinion.

Source (Schultz) stands by everthing he said in his grand jury testimony. (page 86)

Curley, Source (Schultz), and Subject (Spanier) jointly felt that it (the 2000 incident that McQueary reported) was not appropriate, but not criminal. (page 87)

The information reported was not appropriate behavior for Jerry Sandusky but, it was not criminal. No one said it was criminal. (page 87)

McQueary told source (Schultz) and Curley that he saw Jerry Sandusky in the shower with a kid involved in horseplay and wrestling and they were in the shower in the evening and they were alone or something to that effect. McQueary said it was inappropriate that Jerry Sandusky was there alone with a kid.

McQueary did not say anything of a sexual nature took place. McQueary did not say anything indicative of a serious sexual nature. (page 88).

I can understand why Gary, Graham, and Tim could believe they are innocent based on what they were told or how they handled the 1998 and 2001 incidents. But how the heck could they know anything about Jerry's behavior or actions involving any other child and claim Jerry's complete innocence? I am not even sure they could say Jerry is innocent in the 1998 or 2001 incidents.
 
I can understand why Gary, Graham, and Tim could believe they are innocent based on what they were told or how they handled the 1998 and 2001 incidents. But how the heck could they know anything about Jerry's behavior or actions involving any other child and claim Jerry's complete innocence? I am not even sure they could say Jerry is innocent in the 1998 or 2001 incidents.
1. Why drag 1998 in to this at all? C&S were not involved. Recall that the Centre County DA, and CYS, and the Police were involved in an investigation and came up empty in so far as criminal activity was concerned.
2. You're statement "I am not even sure they could say Jerry is innocent in the 1998 or 2001 incidents." suggests you abide by the 'guilty until proven innocent' section of the constitution.
 
  • Like
Reactions: francofan
You make a lot of leaps in that one Franco.
Yes he does, he did shed light on why Curley and Schultz pled guilty and Spanier was convicted without a definitive victim. Those three's trouble did not occur because they abused a child, it occurred because a report of possible child sex abuse was reported to them (or became aware of it in Spanier's case) and did nothing with it.

Courtney's file was labled "Possible Child Abuse" and he advised that they report the incident. They did not report the incident to any LE agency or State reporting agency. We also know from AM's deposition with Amendola (if AM is to be believed), that he said nothing happened however someone did see them in the shower and reported to PSU admin that they were having sex. The latter is what gets PSU admin in trouble.
 
If I think a kid may have been abused and I don’t know who the kid is I am certainly not going to go ask the perpetrator for the name of the kid he may or may not have been abusing. That’s illogical.
Further, you say protective services could have found the kid if they wanted. That implies that you don’t think they wanted to find a potentially abused child. I have worked with them on many, many cases over the years. I have dealt with some investigators that I did not feel did their job well. I’ve dealt with some that I felt were burnt out. I’ve dealt with some that I believe completely missed clear cases of abuse right in front of their faces. Not one time have I ever felt that they made a conscious decision to not find the truth. Again, I have believed they have missed some cases but not because they did not want to find out.

The thing is that Curley and Schultz didn’t think a kid had been abused. I think the report to CYS probably said that there was an inappropriate shower with a kid that included horsing around but nothing about it being potentially sexual. CYS probably had no suspicion about it being potentially sexual.

If you don’t think that Sandusky did anything criminal, what is wrong with asking him who the kid was?

If you want to know who the kid is you aren’t going to get any good information from Mike McQueary. The only person you are going to get good information from is Sandusky. Sandusky knew the March 2002 was wrong. He also knew the February 2001 date just wasn’t right. He is the one who provided critical information to confirm the Dec. 29,2000 date was right.
 
The thing is that Curley and Schultz didn’t think a kid had been abused. I think the report to CYS probably said that there was an inappropriate shower with a kid that included horsing around but nothing about it being potentially sexual. CYS probably had no suspicion about it being potentially sexual.

If you don’t think that Sandusky did anything criminal, what is wrong with asking him who the kid was?

If you want to know who the kid is you aren’t going to get any good information from Mike McQueary. The only person you are going to get good information from is Sandusky. Sandusky knew the March 2002 was wrong. He also knew the February 2001 date just wasn’t right. He is the one who provided critical information to confirm the Dec. 29,2000 date was right.

If you didn’t think Sandusky did anything wrong you wouldn’t talk to him at all. If you think he may have done something wrong (why else would you speak to the board attorney about it if you didn’t have some suspicions about it being wrong?) he would not be the source I would want to be getting information from before making a call.
 
I can understand why Gary, Graham, and Tim could believe they are innocent based on what they were told or how they handled the 1998 and 2001 incidents. But how the heck could they know anything about Jerry's behavior or actions involving any other child and claim Jerry's complete innocence? I am not even sure they could say Jerry is innocent in the 1998 or 2001 incidents.

I will let Gary speak for himself. We should be hearing from him soon when he is off of probation.

My suspicion is that Gary, Graham, and Tim have followed events very closely. They are well aware of the prosecutorial misconduct on behalf of Corbett and the OAG and the lengths that they went to manufacture evidence. They are aware of the Freeh Report farce. They have probably read Snedden’s 110 page redacted report and Mark Pendergrast’s “The Most Hated Man in America.” The are also probably aware of the $100 million question of which of the 36 claimants have provided credible evidence that Sandusky committed CSA. If they conclude that there aren’t any, then they are concluding that Sandusky is innocent. They are all intelligent men. They can see the writing on the wall.
 
Ultimately, francofan etc... believe what they do because:

  • They don't accept the concept of PoC offenders, particularly not Male offenders with male victims.
That's really all it covers down to. They start with a belief in their core that strong men, athletes, coaches would never be abusers, especially of males. They further project their views onto the victims, making the argument that these dudes would have fought off any predator, or be compelled to immediately report.

Fundamentally, they completely discount the concept of Male-Male PoCs, of grooming, and all the other characteristics.

And that's how PoCs get away with it for so long.
 
Those three's trouble did not occur because they abused a child, it occurred because a report of possible child sex abuse was reported to them (or became aware of it in Spanier's case) and did nothing with it.
Should be the same for McQ Senior and Dranov as they were the first to be told of CSA...or were they told something nondescript and inconclusive?


They did not report the incident to any LE agency or State reporting agency.

Incorrect. Dr Jack indicated that he was informed of the situation. He was an appropriate avenue to report. He stated so in testimony. He should have taken action.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bob78 and francofan
If you didn’t think Sandusky did anything wrong you wouldn’t talk to him at all. If you think he may have done something wrong (why else would you speak to the board attorney about it if you didn’t have some suspicions about it being wrong?) he would not be the source I would want to be getting information from before making a call.

Sandusky absolutely did something wrong. He had inappropriate showers with kids that were not criminal. He used extremely poor judgment. He was putting Penn State at risk that one day a kid would file a lawsuit. History has already confirmed that his behavior was inappropriate, bad judgment, risky and very costly.

If you wanted to get information on what happened and McQueary wasn’t able to provide many details and there was no other place to go, why wouldn’t you go to Sandusky?

In 1998, CYS interviewed Sandusky as part of their investigation. As a result of that investigation, CYS did not indicate Sandusky and law enforcement authorities didn’t file any criminal charges.
 
Yes he does, he did shed light on why Curley and Schultz pled guilty and Spanier was convicted without a definitive victim. Those three's trouble did not occur because they abused a child, it occurred because a report of possible child sex abuse was reported to them (or became aware of it in Spanier's case) and did nothing with it.

Courtney's file was labled "Possible Child Abuse" and he advised that they report the incident. They did not report the incident to any LE agency or State reporting agency. We also know from AM's deposition with Amendola (if AM is to be believed), that he said nothing happened however someone did see them in the shower and reported to PSU admin that they were having sex. The latter is what gets PSU admin in trouble.

McQueary did not report they were possibly having sex until 10 years later and the OAG had leverage on him for college football gambling and cell phone pictures. None of the 5 people he told contemporaneously in 2000/2001 have said that he reported anything sexual. McQueary is not a credible witness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: indynittany
Yes he does, he did shed light on why Curley and Schultz pled guilty and Spanier was convicted without a definitive victim. Those three's trouble did not occur because they abused a child, it occurred because a report of possible child sex abuse was reported to them (or became aware of it in Spanier's case) and did nothing with it.

Courtney's file was labled "Possible Child Abuse" and he advised that they report the incident. They did not report the incident to any LE agency or State reporting agency. We also know from AM's deposition with Amendola (if AM is to be believed), that he said nothing happened however someone did see them in the shower and reported to PSU admin that they were having sex. The latter is what gets PSU admin in trouble.

They didn't do nothing with it. They revoked Jerry's guest privileges and they informed the head of TSM, who was responsible for both Jerry and the boy....and who, unlike C/S/S, was a mandatory reporter.

AM's deposition occurred following the release of the grand jury presentment. Context matters here.

Spanier wrote, "The only downside for us is if our message is not "heard" and acted upon...." In other words, his "only" concern was that a subsequent incident could make them look bad. If they had been alerted to the possible sexual abuse of a child, the possibility of that child going to the authorities on his own (like in '98) would have been the elephant in the room.

They did not respond as though a report of possible CSA had occurred. They did respond as though another potential he said/he said situation could leave them (PSU) "vulnerable" to a civil suit. This was about prevention. Period!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bob78 and francofan
Sandusky absolutely did something wrong. He had inappropriate showers with kids that were not criminal. He used extremely poor judgment. He was putting Penn State at risk that one day a kid would file a lawsuit. History has already confirmed that his behavior was inappropriate, bad judgment, risky and very costly.

If you wanted to get information on what happened and McQueary wasn’t able to provide many details and there was no other place to go, why wouldn’t you go to Sandusky?

In 1998, CYS interviewed Sandusky as part of their investigation. As a result of that investigation, CYS did not indicate Sandusky and law enforcement authorities didn’t file any criminal charges.

You answered your own question Franco. Schultz and Curley were college administrators. Their task was not to determine whether or not abuse occurred or to what degree it occurred. Their responsibility was to decide whether or not to call authorities (CYS, police). CYS has the responsibility to determine whether or not the report meets criteria to open an investigation. If they determine it meets criteria it is up to them speak to the people involved.
The administrators decided to not call any other investigative agency. Their decision to not do so had disastrous effects. It was disastrous for them, for the school, for Sandusky (if you are correct about him not being guilty of sexually abusing children), for the later victims (if the courts got it right and he is a child sexual abuser).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lyons212
You are welcome to your own opinion. My opinion is that a miscarriage of justice has occurred and I would like the facts of story to become evident.

What is your agenda?


His agenda is being an uninformed turd, ie a troll, under yet another new nic.
 
You answered your own question Franco. Schultz and Curley were college administrators. Their task was not to determine whether or not abuse occurred or to what degree it occurred. Their responsibility was to decide whether or not to call authorities (CYS, police). CYS has the responsibility to determine whether or not the report meets criteria to open an investigation. If they determine it meets criteria it is up to them speak to the people involved.
The administrators decided to not call any other investigative agency. Their decision to not do so had disastrous effects. It was disastrous for them, for the school, for Sandusky (if you are correct about him not being guilty of sexually abusing children), for the later victims (if the courts got it right and he is a child sexual abuser).


They were not required to contact them. You're really dense.
 
Ultimately, francofan etc... believe what they do because:

  • They don't accept the concept of PoC offenders, particularly not Male offenders with male victims.
That's really all it covers down to. They start with a belief in their core that strong men, athletes, coaches would never be abusers, especially of males. They further project their views onto the victims, making the argument that these dudes would have fought off any predator, or be compelled to immediately report.

Fundamentally, they completely discount the concept of Male-Male PoCs, of grooming, and all the other characteristics.

And that's how PoCs get away with it for so long.

Wrong.

I accept the concept of POC offenders. I understand the concept of grooming and realize that victims did not always immediately report their abuse (but sometimes they do).

I believe that Larry Nassar and Dennis Hassert actually abused kids.

On the other hand, I think that there is very little or no credible evidence that Sandusky actually abused kids.
 
  • Like
Reactions: denniskembala
Yes he does, he did shed light on why Curley and Schultz pled guilty and Spanier was convicted without a definitive victim. Those three's trouble did not occur because they abused a child, it occurred because a report of possible child sex abuse was reported to them (or became aware of it in Spanier's case) and did nothing with it.

Courtney's file was labled "Possible Child Abuse" and he advised that they report the incident. They did not report the incident to any LE agency or State reporting agency. We also know from AM's deposition with Amendola (if AM is to be believed), that he said nothing happened however someone did see them in the shower and reported to PSU admin that they were having sex. The latter is what gets PSU admin in trouble.

It was essential to the "Story" that the OAG concocted that PSU's C/S/S be "convicted" of SOMETHING (I believe Criminal Jay-walking was their fall back charge if all else failed!!) because the FACTUAL evidence which SHOULD have been part of all of this was being "managed" by the abuse of PA State legal powers. How was all of this done?????

FIRST - the OAG needed to "strong-arm" desired testimonies from key observers That takes time to obtain the "incentives" which are needed to manufacture core testimonies which could be morphed into "what could have happened". After all, this entire matter is based on supposition and assumption of guilt - NOT facts.

SECOND - it was tampering with the testimonies that were obtained - changing the content of the testimonies by selectively modifying what was said into what was needed to support the "Story". All of this was media broadcasted incessantly so that the public would be sold on the Criminality of PSU "Story".

THIRD - the illegal use of the Grand Jury allowed the OAG to withhold and secure any information that would "...ruin their case..." because no one had access to that information at a time where it would have effectively exposed the insanity of the State's LEGAL case. Remember it took 3 years to put this all together - it takes time to "engineer" a case when the core of the case can not be LEGALLY supported without significant management of the facts!

FOURTH
- You need complicit "insiders" to provide key components of the OAG fiction - With 3 years, the Corbett-driven political "Hit" had the time to assembled the needed "insiders'. These "insiders" provided "testimonies" which allowed the OAG to "reasonably conclude" that their "Story" could be publicly and media supported. Essential to this was "convicting" C/S/S by using illegal "Miss Daisy" statements to allow CRIMINAL issues to be flimsily alleged.
Also - two other "insiders" were required - they were Louis "the Liar for Hire" (Good buddy of Tommy Corbett and others) and the infamous OGBOT who controlled the money and public "PSU image of Guilt" necessary for this scam to work!

C/S/S took an approach that in 2000-2001 time frame (the time of PSU's "linkage" crime in the shower that Sandusky was just unaware of the POTENTIAL legal issues that his shower habits created (refer to 1997's incident - remember these were disadvantaged youth and "distortions" of an event was always a potential for Sandusky).

The C/S/S approach was AT THE TIME 100% reasonable and LEGAL in how it reacted to a vague report given by MM. It was their reasonable conclusion that, without any evidence of criminal activity by Sandusky, a report was not only not necessary, but a potential legal threat - not from a "victim", but Sandusky. If Sandusky (a publicly image of a "Saint" at this time) was scarred with a legal allegation which had NO KNOWN criminality PSU's threat from litigation was most likely with Sandusky's potential injury - not anything else. That is why Curley created a file "POTENTIAL Child abuse" - because CSA was not believed to have occurred based on MM testimony. With CSA REASONABLY out of the picture, PSU only did a checkbox "due diligence" on the applicable legal requirements of a CSA event which COULD have applied based on the MM event reported.

Remember....No one in 2001 reported that what MM saw required reporting anything to police or child welfare agencies (but who knows....that MAY have happened). It was the OAG that pushed the need to report all of this to the State and this "requirement" was based on an illegal 2007 version of a law which DID NOT APPLY in 2000-2001. All of the C/S/S convictions came based on applying a law that did not LEGALLY exist at the time of the "conviction" incident. This is the 100% factual ENGINEERED POLITIAL HIT certification!!

Here's more evidence of the "engineering" of this "Story" - The state of PA KNEW that even PSU officially reported all of this to State Agencies, 10 years later the evidence that PSU conformed to the 2007 law would be wiped clean by PA standard data procedures. You see the need to report was core to this case and it was "managed" by the OAG so that concrete proof that PSU handled this single (linkage) event properly.

So your statement "...it occurred because a report of possible child sex abuse was reported to them (NOTE: This is NOT what anyone in 2001 testified as MM's observations (again this is what would apply only if you use the "modified testimony of MM stated in the presentment: "RAPE" - rational for this testimony version from MM - see #1 & 2 above) (or became aware of it in Spanier's case) and did nothing with it..."


Your statement is only valid if you believe the 2007 LEGAL requirements apply - THEY DO NOT. Since the judge CONVICTED & coerced "Plea Deals" by applying this 2007 law - it is actually a criminal act by the State and the Judge - NOT C/S/S!!!


Face it - The "Story" is just that - a LEGAL fiction - the Trials are a consistent and continuous abuse of the PA Judicial system and C/S/S conformed (actually OVER conformed) to the applicable laws at the time!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: francofan
In fairness to Jack, he was receiving third hand information.
Your point about a report possibly producing no results is a fair point. But purely from the CYA perspective as far as Penn State goes, if a call had been made and been documented it would have likely saved a lot of trouble and money. It may not have stopped Sandusky at all, but it would have protected Penn State.
You lost me when you defend Raykovitz. He was trained and it was his job. Just because others are nuts doesn’t make you sane
 
You lost me when you defend Raykovitz. He was trained and it was his job. Just because others are nuts doesn’t make you sane

I’m not defending him. I’m just pointing out that by time a report got him it had gone from McQueary to Schultz/Curley to him. He absolutely failed in his responsibility. There is no question about that.
 
Raykovitz would be severely conflicted in any investigation of Sandusky. TSM investigates its founder and face of the organization for possible child sex abuse. If they find the accusation credible, TSM is most likely out of business. If they do not find the accusation credible then everyone else see their conflict of interest. PSU Admin would know this.

The fact that they did not contact an investigative agency is telling. They were afraid of what might be discovered.
 
Their task was not to determine whether or not abuse occurred or to what degree it occurred. Their responsibility was to decide whether or not to call authorities (CYS, police). CYS has the responsibility to determine whether or not the report meets criteria to open an investigation. If they determine it meets criteria it is up to them speak to the people involved.
The administrators decided to not call any other investigative agency. Their decision to not do so had disastrous effects.

Who said they were required to contact them?

You are falling just short of saying they were required by suggesting that not contacting CYS was disastrous.

But a few things: First, it's possible (remotely, but Schultz said he thought they were contacted. I think Curley said they were not contacted though) they were contacted. There wouldn't be any record left by the time proof was needed, so it's impossible to say for sure one way or the other.

Second, they did contact TSM for sure. Thinking logically through all of this..... if I'm not trained in any of this, and I'm informed of a possible issue involving a POC, I'm likely handing it off to TSM too. Jack was supposed to know what to do and do the right thing. (I think the conversation with the lawyer is overblown. I believe they simply wanted to know what they were required to do. If the lawyer's file said possible child abuse, then that's how it was heard by the lawyer, not how it was heard by C & S. Was the lawyer called before or after Curley and Schultz talked to Mike McQ? I thought it was before.)

Third, maybe (I'm not taking either side of this, just offering a possibility) Jerry is innocent and nothing the admins did or could have done would have made a bit of difference. In the end, even though '98 was investigated and cleared, PSU still paid dearly for that. Who's to say '01 (or '00 if that's the actual year) wouldn't have turned out the same?
 
  • Like
Reactions: francofan
I’m not defending him. I’m just pointing out that by time a report got him it had gone from McQueary to Schultz/Curley to him. He absolutely failed in his responsibility. There is no question about that.

When your staement is:
"In fairness to Jack, he was receiving third hand information."

You are insinuating it was unfair. I think your bias is showing.You have a higher standard for PSU Administrators than you do for Raykovitz. Sad
 
  • Like
Reactions: francofan
You are falling just short of saying they were required by suggesting that not contacting CYS was disastrous.

But a few things: First, it's possible (remotely, but Schultz said he thought they were contacted. I think Curley said they were not contacted though) they were contacted. There wouldn't be any record left by the time proof was needed, so it's impossible to say for sure one way or the other.

Second, they did contact TSM for sure. Thinking logically through all of this..... if I'm not trained in any of this, and I'm informed of a possible issue involving a POC, I'm likely handing it off to TSM too. Jack was supposed to know what to do and do the right thing. (I think the conversation with the lawyer is overblown. I believe they simply wanted to know what they were required to do. If the lawyer's file said possible child abuse, then that's how it was heard by the lawyer, not how it was heard by C & S. Was the lawyer called before or after Curley and Schultz talked to Mike McQ? I thought it was before.)

Third, maybe (I'm not taking either side of this, just offering a possibility) Jerry is innocent and nothing the admins did or could have done would have made a bit of difference. In the end, even though '98 was investigated and cleared, PSU still paid dearly for that. Who's to say '01 (or '00 if that's the actual year) wouldn't have turned out the same?

I’m really not saying the should have called an agency (really, it would have been the police for them as they did not have the name of a victim). I don’t know what they were told. If they had any reason to believe a child may be getting harmed-and for me personally, saying that a grown man was alone in a shower with an underage boy would lead me to believe that was a possibility- they should have contacted the police or protective services (if contacting them would have any effect without the name of the child).
What I am saying about them not contacting an agency and documenting that contact is that it had disastrous consequences. I don’t really even think that is debatable. The fact is that they didn’t contact an agency and/or didn’t document having done so. They also spoke to the board attorney, who did document the contact with them and labeled it as possible child abuse.
The fact that they contacted the attorney at all points to some level of seriousness about what McQueary reported to them. I would think that if somebody reported something to me about a grown man and an underage boy in a shower that I thought was serious enough to speak to an attorney about, I would probably report it to an agency.
 
When your staement is:
"In fairness to Jack, he was receiving third hand information."

You are insinuating it was unfair. I think your bias is showing.You have a higher standard for PSU Administrators than you do for Raykovitz. Sad

Not true. It was really just a wisecrack. Raykovitz definitely failed in his responsibilities.
Let me be clear. I am somewhat ambivalent towards the administrators. I still don’t know exactly what they were told. I still don’t know the reasons they did not initiate an investigation. I still don’t know exactly what they said to Courtney. My best guess is that they acted in good faith. I would bet if you gave them a time machine, they would make and document a call to an investigative agency. Sadly for them, that’s not an option.
 
What I am saying about them not contacting an agency and documenting that contact is that it had disastrous consequences.

I agree with this and wasn't contradicting you. Though I'll suggest they did report it to an "agency". They reported it to TSM. I can't understand why this is disregarded and considered not enough by some of you.

Turned out to be not enough (if Jerry is truly guilty) because Jack didn't do anything about it. But should have been considered enough both legally and morally by anyone who understands how sensitive this stuff can be for the accuser and the accused (if falsely accused). And would have been enough if Jack had taken steps to make sure Jerry wasn't alone with these boys going forward (two reports of showering alone wasn't enough for him???).

As for C & S, you don't just go around making allegations about a POC based on a few quick glances of what was described as horsing around in the shower. Especially when multiple other highly respected individuals didn't consider the situation serious enough to call the police right away.

Remember, C & S are hearing this much later, there is no victim identified, they are being told horseplay, they are university admins (they deal with adults, not children), they aren't trained to handle this type of matter. If they dropped the ball, fine. But they didn't bury it in the sand and pray it would go away. They told TSM about it. TSM was trained to handle it.

To me, they handled PSU business properly, or at least as well as a reasonable person, given what was known to them at that time should expect. They told Jerry no more kids alone with him on PSU property. Based on what they were likely told, I think I likely would have done the same.

All these opinions are like Joe said -- "with the benefit of hindsight.....".

The fact that they contacted the attorney at all points to some level of seriousness about what McQueary reported to them.

Again, I thought they contacted the attorney PRIOR to discussing the situation with Mike McQ. I could be wrong. But if I'm correct, that could easily explain why the attorney's file suggested something more serious than what Curley and Schultz have claimed they were told.
 
Narrative: Joe Paterno protected sandusky to protect his (Paterno's) reputation and the football program.

This would be humorous if it weren't so pathetic. Let's put aside for a moment the fact that Joe and jerry weren't close friends. Let's just look at Paterno. For decades, Joe Paterno's reputation was:

  • Winning football coach who always stressed character, academics, and personal growth and development above winning games.
  • Not one to hide in the football building. Was active in the Penn State community. Loved academics and loved the school.
  • Ran a clean football program. No ncaa issues, high graduation rates, decades of players who went on to be successful off the field.
  • Husband, married to one woman. Never cited for infidelity.
  • Father. Loved by all of his children.
  • Grandfather
  • Family man. Close family. No one estranged.
  • Benefactor (library, academic scholarships, Special Olympics, THON)
  • Law-abiding. Joe never had legal issues. (He was never charged with a crime after being thrown under the sandusky bus. He was even commended by the Office of the Attorney General.)
  • Humble, modest. Didn't like to talk about himself or his success. Talked about those who helped him, talked about his philosophies, but not himself.
I'm sure I missed other great things that Joe was known for. Joe wasn't known for these things because Joe talked about them. As stated above, he was humble. He shied away from attention as much as anyone in his position realistically could. He was recognized for these qualities by the people who knew him well and by the way he carried himself for decades. You never heard someone say, "He projects this, but he's really just that when you get to know him." What you saw is what you got with Joe.

Given all of this, some people actually believe that Joe would knowingly, intentionally protect a pedophile. And, he would do it to protect his reputation and that of the football program. It doesn't occur to these people that, had Joe known details about jerry, that turning him in would have actually elevated his (Paterno's) reputation and that of the football program. "He learned about the sick transgressions of his legendary defensive coordinator and turned him in. Wow!"

All of this addresses the false narrative that still lives today that Joe either coordinated or actively participated in a cover-up. Of course, we all know that Joe, having received a vague story from mike mcqueary, did what the law allowed someone in his position to do in 2001 -- report it to his superiors. What Joe did in 2001 also complies with today's ncaa guidelines, published after the sandusky scandal.

It is reprehensible to hold Joe responsible in any way for sandusky. Remember Joe's own words in 2011. With the benefit of hindsight, he wishes he had done more. With the benefit of hindsight. Joe did all that he was allowed to do by law based on what he knew in 2001. He still did more than Drs. McQueary and Dranov, who learned of the shower incident within an hour after it happened and some 12 hours or so before Joe learned of it.

It is reprehensible to hold onto the false narrative about Joe with all that we knew about Joe and have learned in nearly eight years since sandusky was indicted.
 
Narrative: Joe Paterno protected sandusky to protect his (Paterno's) reputation and the football program.

This would be humorous if it weren't so pathetic. Let's put aside for a moment the fact that Joe and jerry weren't close friends. Let's just look at Paterno. For decades, Joe Paterno's reputation was:

  • Winning football coach who always stressed character, academics, and personal growth and development above winning games.
  • Not one to hide in the football building. Was active in the Penn State community. Loved academics and loved the school.
  • Ran a clean football program. No ncaa issues, high graduation rates, decades of players who went on to be successful off the field.
  • Husband, married to one woman. Never cited for infidelity.
  • Father. Loved by all of his children.
  • Grandfather
  • Family man. Close family. No one estranged.
  • Benefactor (library, academic scholarships, Special Olympics, THON)
  • Law-abiding. Joe never had legal issues. (He was never charged with a crime after being thrown under the sandusky bus. He was even commended by the Office of the Attorney General.)
  • Humble, modest. Didn't like to talk about himself or his success. Talked about those who helped him, talked about his philosophies, but not himself.
Bad joke time: Sounds like JoePa was a POC Coach who preyed upon us football fans for his own deviant thrills. Snowed us all. Who woulda thunk?
 
  • Like
Reactions: indynittany
I agree with this and wasn't contradicting you. Though I'll suggest they did report it to an "agency". They reported it to TSM. I can't understand why this is disregarded and considered not enough by some of you.

Turned out to be not enough (if Jerry is truly guilty) because Jack didn't do anything about it. But should have been considered enough both legally and morally by anyone who understands how sensitive this stuff can be for the accuser and the accused (if falsely accused). And would have been enough if Jack had taken steps to make sure Jerry wasn't alone with these boys going forward (two reports of showering alone wasn't enough for him???).

As for C & S, you don't just go around making allegations about a POC based on a few quick glances of what was described as horsing around in the shower. Especially when multiple other highly respected individuals didn't consider the situation serious enough to call the police right away.

Remember, C & S are hearing this much later, there is no victim identified, they are being told horseplay, they are university admins (they deal with adults, not children), they aren't trained to handle this type of matter. If they dropped the ball, fine. But they didn't bury it in the sand and pray it would go away. They told TSM about it. TSM was trained to handle it.

To me, they handled PSU business properly, or at least as well as a reasonable person, given what was known to them at that time should expect. They told Jerry no more kids alone with him on PSU property. Based on what they were likely told, I think I likely would have done the same.

All these opinions are like Joe said -- "with the benefit of hindsight.....".



Again, I thought they contacted the attorney PRIOR to discussing the situation with Mike McQ. I could be wrong. But if I'm correct, that could easily explain why the attorney's file suggested something more serious than what Curley and Schultz have claimed they were told.

I don’t think contacting TSM is disregarded. But TSM is not an investigative agency. Contacting TSM may or may not have been appropriate, but if you believe there is a child being abused or neglected you also have the responsibility to report it. Again, in this situation you don’t know the child so the report should probably go to the police.
Your last point may be correct. If they contacted Courtney before McQueary that may have been in anticipation of what they were expecting to hear. What McQueary said to them may have dissuaded them from doing that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MJG-90
I’m not defending him. I’m just pointing out that by time a report got him it had gone from McQueary to Schultz/Curley to him. He absolutely failed in his responsibility. There is no question about that.

Did he? What could Tim have told him that would make him counter with having Jerry wear swim trunks while showering with kids? What could Tim have told him that would lead Bruce Heim to offer up the use of the Hilton Garden Inn as an alternative facility; a facility in which he was part owner?

None of these people were concerned that Jerry might abuse a child or that a child had been abused. But they were concerned with avoiding a repeat of '98.

If C/S/S thought for a minute that JS had abused that boy, don't you think they would have thrown him under the bus? We can argue about what MM reported, and we should ascertain whether or not Mike waited over a month before going to Joe. But it's ludicrous to think that those three administrators would have overlooked the possible abuse of a child. That would have been completely out of character, and it would have exposed PSU. The benefit of turning the other way was minimal when compared to the risk of being named an accessory to CSA.

To me, the most egregious miscarriage of justice in this mess is that Spanier was convicted of a crime while Raykovitz was not even charged with one. That suggests to me that this whole thing was rigged. However, what if Jerry's behavior was believed to be more of a danger to himself, and by extension, PSU and TSM because of the risk of a false accusation than he ever was to any of these kids? What if Sandusky is more like Joe Biden than Dr. Nassar?
 
  • Like
Reactions: francofan
Narrative: Joe Paterno protected sandusky to protect his (Paterno's) reputation and the football program.

This would be humorous if it weren't so pathetic. Let's put aside for a moment the fact that Joe and jerry weren't close friends. Let's just look at Paterno. For decades, Joe Paterno's reputation was:

  • Winning football coach who always stressed character, academics, and personal growth and development above winning games.
  • Not one to hide in the football building. Was active in the Penn State community. Loved academics and loved the school.
  • Ran a clean football program. No ncaa issues, high graduation rates, decades of players who went on to be successful off the field.
  • Husband, married to one woman. Never cited for infidelity.
  • Father. Loved by all of his children.
  • Grandfather
  • Family man. Close family. No one estranged.
  • Benefactor (library, academic scholarships, Special Olympics, THON)
  • Law-abiding. Joe never had legal issues. (He was never charged with a crime after being thrown under the sandusky bus. He was even commended by the Office of the Attorney General.)
  • Humble, modest. Didn't like to talk about himself or his success. Talked about those who helped him, talked about his philosophies, but not himself.
I'm sure I missed other great things that Joe was known for. Joe wasn't known for these things because Joe talked about them. As stated above, he was humble. He shied away from attention as much as anyone in his position realistically could. He was recognized for these qualities by the people who knew him well and by the way he carried himself for decades. You never heard someone say, "He projects this, but he's really just that when you get to know him." What you saw is what you got with Joe.

Given all of this, some people actually believe that Joe would knowingly, intentionally protect a pedophile. And, he would do it to protect his reputation and that of the football program. It doesn't occur to these people that, had Joe known details about jerry, that turning him in would have actually elevated his (Paterno's) reputation and that of the football program. "He learned about the sick transgressions of his legendary defensive coordinator and turned him in. Wow!"

All of this addresses the false narrative that still lives today that Joe either coordinated or actively participated in a cover-up. Of course, we all know that Joe, having received a vague story from mike mcqueary, did what the law allowed someone in his position to do in 2001 -- report it to his superiors. What Joe did in 2001 also complies with today's ncaa guidelines, published after the sandusky scandal.

It is reprehensible to hold Joe responsible in any way for sandusky. Remember Joe's own words in 2011. With the benefit of hindsight, he wishes he had done more. With the benefit of hindsight. Joe did all that he was allowed to do by law based on what he knew in 2001. He still did more than Drs. McQueary and Dranov, who learned of the shower incident within an hour after it happened and some 12 hours or so before Joe learned of it.

It is reprehensible to hold onto the false narrative about Joe with all that we knew about Joe and have learned in nearly eight years since sandusky was indicted.

One of the many failures in this saga is that JVP, because he was never charged, had no official channel through which to clear his name. What prompted Frank Noonan to act so unprofessionally? And why didn't Tom Corbett fire him on the spot?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bob78 and francofan
Did he? What could Tim have told him that would make him counter with having Jerry wear swim trunks while showering with kids? What could Tim have told him that would lead Bruce Heim to offer up the use of the Hilton Garden Inn as an alternative facility; a facility in which he was part owner?

None of these people were concerned that Jerry might abuse a child or that a child had been abused. But they were concerned with avoiding a repeat of '98.

If C/S/S thought for a minute that JS had abused that boy, don't you think they would have thrown him under the bus? We can argue about what MM reported, and we should ascertain whether or not Mike waited over a month before going to Joe. But it's ludicrous to think that those three administrators would have overlooked the possible abuse of a child. That would have been completely out of character, and it would have exposed PSU. The benefit of turning the other way was minimal when compared to the risk of being named an accessory to CSA.

To me, the most egregious miscarriage of justice in this mess is that Spanier was convicted of a crime while Raykovitz was not even charged with one. That suggests to me that this whole thing was rigged. However, what if Jerry's behavior was believed to be more of a danger to himself, and by extension, PSU and TSM because of the risk of a false accusation than he ever was to any of these kids? What if Sandusky is more like Joe Biden than Dr. Nassar?

Joe Biden showers alone with underage boys and had physical contact with them? If that’s true it will likely cost him the presidential nomination.
It’s tough to discuss this with you Indy because you go way off track.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IIVI and thetruth82
Joe Biden showers alone with underage boys and had physical contact with them? If that’s true it will likely cost him the presidential nomination.
It’s tough to discuss this with you Indy because you go way off track.
I'm not off track. Joe Biden's behavior is more than a bit creepy. What if that's all Jerry's is too?

How do you explain the reactions of Raykovitz and Heim to what Curley shared with Jack? How could it have been serious enough for Tim to alter the terms of Jerry's retirement plan, but not serious enough for Jack to fulfill his duty to that boy or that of being a mandatory reporter? There has to be an answer.
 
Last edited:
Contacting TSM may or may not have been appropriate, but if you believe there is a child being abused or neglected you also have the responsibility to report it.

And that's where all of the gray area resides. What did they believe happened? They all said horseplay. And I think there is enough evidence to suggest Mike McQ may have changed his story some between 2001 and 2011. And that the prosecution enhanced his story as well. Since none of us were there, we are all just speculating. I prefer to believe C, S, S, JoePa, and even Jack were good people who simply were either duped or worse, were actually victims of a corrupt government.

I do want to thank you for your even keel responses. You, unlike many others, provide reasonable, level headed, and respectful replies. This is a hard discussion to have and many go off the rails making it even more difficult.
 
And that's where all of the gray area resides. What did they believe happened? They all said horseplay. And I think there is enough evidence to suggest Mike McQ may have changed his story some between 2001 and 2011. And that the prosecution enhanced his story as well. Since none of us were there, we are all just speculating. I prefer to believe C, S, S, JoePa, and even Jack were good people who simply were either duped or worse, were actually victims of a corrupt government.

I do want to thank you for your even keel responses. You, unlike many others, provide reasonable, level headed, and respectful replies. This is a hard discussion to have and many go off the rails making it even more difficult.

I appreciate the compliment.
What they believed is really the crux. From the actions of all involved (including the witness himself) it certainly seems they did not know what they were dealing with.
I think this chapter of the discussion on here has been based on the comment I made that if they had reported it and documented having done so, it would have saved a ton of damage. It was not a comment that I believe that they should have because I just don’t know what they heard. It was just the simple statement that it would have prevented a lot of the damage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MJG-90
....What they believed is really the crux. From the actions of all involved (including the witness himself) it certainly seems they did not know what they were dealing with.....

What if they did know what they were dealing with? What if Clemente got it wrong?
 
  • Like
Reactions: francofan
...but if you believe there is a child being abused or neglected you also have the responsibility to report it.
Nobody believed a child was being abused or neglected! That is the crux of the matter. Nobody. The actions of the day confirm it.


That is... at least until McQ was coerced in to believing it 10 years after the fact. But even McQ didn't believe in 2001 because all he did was slammed a locker and left the scene in less than a minute. That is as proof-positive as it gets.
 
One of the many failures in this saga is that JVP, because he was never charged, had no official channel through which to clear his name. What prompted Frank Noonan to act so unprofessionally? And why didn't Tom Corbett fire him on the spot?

It's sad that Penn State canceled Joe's press conference in November 2011 when he planned to talk openly about the sandusky matter. It's tragic that Joe passed away before he had a chance to clear his name in the court of public opinion.
 
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT