Raise it!!!! The game...., the fight...., ..... 3-0 good guys.......

[GregInPitt]

The Reds guy that was hit was a lot braver once his team took the field. Watson was staring right at him after hitting him and the Red just stood there.

Pretty ugly for a while.

Agree completely with the Pirates announcers that the Reds could have rationally retaliated last night. By waiting until the 8th today to plunk Cutch it was proper for the Pirates to plunk another Red. Would have been better had it been Byrd again.

3-0 , good guys. With all the trouble the Bucco's have had with the Reds, getting a split of the series at Cincy is a win.

 

[nits74]

The Reds guy that was hit was a lot braver once his team took the field. Watson was staring right at him after hitting him and the Red just stood there.

Pretty ugly for a while.

Agree completely with the Pirates announcers that the Reds could have rationally retaliated last night. By waiting until the 8th today to plunk Cutch it was proper for the Pirates to plunk another Red. Would have been better had it been Byrd again.

3-0 , good guys. With all the trouble the Bucco's have had with the Reds, getting a split of the series at Cincy is a win.

I like Brandon, but he's a bit of a drama queen. Throwing out Melancon was perhaps the stupidest thing I've seen an umpire do in a long time (and that is saying something).
Huge win. Love it when Charlie pitches that way.

 

[michnittlion]

The Reds guy that was hit was a lot braver once his team took the field. Watson was staring right at him after hitting him and the Red just stood there.

Pretty ugly for a while.

Agree completely with the Pirates announcers that the Reds could have rationally retaliated last night. By waiting until the 8th today to plunk Cutch it was proper for the Pirates to plunk another Red. Would have been better had it been Byrd again.

3-0 , good guys. With all the trouble the Bucco's have had with the Reds, getting a split of the series at Cincy is a win.

What?!?!?!? "Rationally retaliate" in the 9th Inning of a 2-run game? That is what you are advocating for if you wanted a "rational retaliation" on Saturday night. Byrd got freaking hit (up near the HEAD) in the bottom of the 8th Inning last night!

Cutch gets hit with a breaking-ball today. Big deal. But everything is a big deal to the Pirates, who have led all of Major League Baseball in hits batsman (DO-ing the hitting) in each of 2013, 2014, and 2015. But fair enough. Pittsburgh definitely has a chip on their shoulder and evidently wants to be in bean-ball brawls with one team or another at all times.

 

[TheGLOV]

FLAG!

No video!!

 

[nits74]

What?!?!?!? "Rationally retaliate" in the 9th Inning of a 2-run game? That is what you are advocating for if you wanted a "rational retaliation" on Saturday night. Byrd got freaking hit (up near the HEAD) in the bottom of the 8th Inning last night!

Cutch gets hit with a breaking-ball today. Big deal. But everything is a big deal to the Pirates, who have led all of Major League Baseball in hits batsman in each of 2013, 2014, and 2015. But fair enough. Pittsburgh definitely has a chip on their shoulder and evidently wants to be in bean-ball brawls with one team or another at all times.

Now it's my turn, Mich. You're better than that! First, the Reds always, always target Cutch. They had to wait until a situation when they would have wanted to put him on late in the following game, then throw at his upper body. No one threw at Byrd on purpose and you know it. This is the Reds way of doing things going back to Baker. And by the way, the Pirates lead baseball in hit batsmen.

 

[TheGLOV]

Now it's my turn, Mich. You're better than that! First, the Reds always, always target Cutch. They had to wait until a situation when they would have wanted to put him on late in the following game, then throw at his upper body. No one threw at Byrd on purpose and you know it. This is the Reds way of doing things going back to Baker. And by the way, the Pirates lead baseball in hit batsmen.

Baker and Dallas Green = MLB jack-asses!!

 

[GregInPitt]

What?!?!?!? "Rationally retaliate" in the 9th Inning of a 2-run game? That is what you are advocating for if you wanted a "rational retaliation" on Saturday night. Byrd got freaking hit (up near the HEAD) in the bottom of the 8th Inning last night!

Cutch gets hit with a breaking-ball today. Big deal. But everything is a big deal to the Pirates, who have led all of Major League Baseball in hits batsman (DO-ing the hitting) in each of 2013, 2014, and 2015. But fair enough. Pittsburgh definitely has a chip on their shoulder and evidently wants to be in bean-ball brawls with one team or another at all times.

What!?!?!?!?

Buy a clue. You retaliate in the game of the incident, or at the latest at the BEGINNING of the next game. If the Reds were afraid to retaliate last night because they were afraid to lose the game, then yes they were afraid. If they didn't want to retaliate last night they could have just moved on as they did win last night. Byrd is a dramma queen and if he thinks him getting hit is equal to lining up the Pirates MVP Cutch, he is clueless as well. It's almost funny because Byrd was on the Pirates, what, 2 years ago for the stretch run? The Pirates have and will continue to take exception to teams singling out Cutch for retaliation. Too bad Byrd was already thrown out or the Bucco's could have hit him again.

 

[nits74]

What!?!?!?!?

Buy a clue. You retaliate in the game of the incident, or at the latest at the BEGINNING of the next game. If the Reds were afraid to retaliate last night because they were afraid to lose the game, then yes they were afraid. If they didn't want to retaliate last night they could have just moved on as they did win last night. Byrd is a dramma queen and if he thinks him getting hit is equal to lining up the Pirates MVP Cutch, he is clueless as well. It's almost funny because Byrd was on the Pirates, what, 2 years ago for the stretch run? The Pirates have and will continue to take exception to teams singling out Cutch for retaliation. Too bad Byrd was already thrown out or the Bucco's could have hit him again.

My only regret is that he didn't get to fight Rodriguez. From the look of things, I don't think SR is someone to fool with.

 

[michnittlion]

Now it's my turn, Mich. You're better than that! First, the Reds always, always target Cutch. They had to wait until a situation when they would have wanted to put him on late in the following game, then throw at his upper body. No one threw at Byrd on purpose and you know it. This is the Reds way of doing things going back to Baker. And by the way, the Pirates lead baseball in hit batsmen.

Yep, the Reds threw at Cutch today. Breaking-ball. Wasn't a fastball like with the D-Backs exactly 52 Sundays ago. It hurts, but it's not going to kill him. Sure the Reds target Cutch: he's the Pirates best player.

Blanton could have killed Byrd last night --- doesn't matter it if was intentional or not, Blanton (and his unfortunate teammates) needs to be taught to be less reckless.

 

[michnittlion]

What!?!?!?!?

Buy a clue. You retaliate in the game of the incident, or at the latest at the BEGINNING of the next game. If the Reds were afraid to retaliate last night because they were afraid to lose the game, then yes they were afraid. If they didn't want to retaliate last night they could have just moved on as they did win last night. Byrd is a dramma queen and if he thinks him getting hit is equal to lining up the Pirates MVP Cutch, he is clueless as well. It's almost funny because Byrd was on the Pirates, what, 2 years ago for the stretch run? The Pirates have and will continue to take exception to teams singling out Cutch for retaliation. Too bad Byrd was already thrown out or the Bucco's could have hit him again.

Yeah, right ---- the Pirates want the Reds to retaliate on Saturday evening. Sorry, the Reds aren't playing that game. The Pirates will have to improve their 4-9 season record against the Reds by earning it, as opposed to getting Cincinnati off their game.

 

[psualt]

What?!?!?!? "Rationally retaliate" in the 9th Inning of a 2-run game? That is what you are advocating for if you wanted a "rational retaliation" on Saturday night. Byrd got freaking hit (up near the HEAD) in the bottom of the 8th Inning last night!

Cutch gets hit with a breaking-ball today. Big deal. But everything is a big deal to the Pirates, who have led all of Major League Baseball in hits batsman (DO-ing the hitting) in each of 2013, 2014, and 2015. But fair enough. Pittsburgh definitely has a chip on their shoulder and evidently wants to be in bean-ball brawls with one team or another at all times.

91 mph curveball???

 

[nits74]

Yep, the Reds threw at Cutch today. Breaking-ball. Wasn't a fastball like with the D-Backs exactly 52 Sundays ago. It hurts, but it's not going to kill him. Sure the Reds target Cutch: he's the Pirates best player.

Blanton could have killed Byrd last night --- doesn't matter it if was intentional or not, Blanton (and his unfortunate teammates) needs to be taught to be less reckless.

Blanton's pitch clearly just got away. Like your rationalization, this was not a situation where the Pirates wanted to put someone on. Game was still close. And no, you don't intentionally target a team's best player. You've been around Dusty Baker too long. Most teams don't do that.
By the way, Phillips post game interview was very measured and classy. He's a good guy.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Reds have thrown at Cutch for years, and often at his head. And with 102 MPH fastballs. Its about time the Bucs defended him. Shoulda done this two years ago, maybe it would be over by now.

Pirate pitching hit a lot of batters but it is almost always by pitching tight and in the lower body. The Reds go high at Cutch almost once a game. Most times he gets out of the way so those don't show up in any stats. Would love to see how many times Red pitches have been at Cutch high in the last couple years.

Six more games between these teams....gonna be wild. But this is what happens when the league doesn't do anything to stop it.

 

[PennStateNate]

I see steroid Byrd was out there causing problems.

 

[Norm Petersin]

Nice win with only 3 hits. Let's go Bucs

 

[nits74]

Blanton's pitch clearly just got away. Like your rationalization, this was not a situation where the Pirates wanted to put someone on. Game was still close. And no, you don't intentionally target a team's best player. You've been around Dusty Baker too long. Most teams don't do that.
By the way, Phillips post game interview was very measured and classy. He's a good guy.

Reds have thrown at Cutch for years, and often at his head. And with 102 MPH fastballs. Its about time the Bucs defended him. Shoulda done this two years ago, maybe it would be over by now.

Pirate pitching hit a lot of batters but it is almost always by pitching tight and in the lower body. The Reds go high at Cutch almost once a game. Most times he gets out of the way so those don't show up in any stats. Would love to see how many times Red pitches have been at Cutch high in the last couple years.

Six ore games between these teams....gonna be wild. But this is what happens when the league doesn't do anything to stop it.

Good point on Chapman. If there is any pitcher that goes out there with attempt to injure, he is it.

 

[michnittlion]

Good point on Chapman. If there is any pitcher that goes out there with attempt to injure, he is it.

Gerrit Cole, who is obviously a great pitcher with great control, has a higher HBP rate (20 HBP in his career over 1591 batters faced: 1.26%) than Aroldis Chapman (13 over 1186: 1.10%).

For reference, Cole has walked 95 guys unintentionally over his career (5.97% rate), vs. Chapman walking 145 (12.22% rate).

Hmmm.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colege01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/chapmar01.shtml

 

[michnittlion]

Reds have thrown at Cutch for years, and often at his head. And with 102 MPH fastballs. Its about time the Bucs defended him. Shoulda done this two years ago, maybe it would be over by now.

Pirate pitching hit a lot of batters but it is almost always by pitching tight and in the lower body. The Reds go high at Cutch almost once a game. Most times he gets out of the way so those don't show up in any stats. Would love to see how many times Red pitches have been at Cutch high in the last couple years.

Six more games between these teams....gonna be wild. But this is what happens when the league doesn't do anything to stop it.

Yep --- Chapman did throw at McCutchen in that game in August 2012. No doubt about it. It was a Friday night game and the Reds were in 1st and the Pirates were right behind in 2nd and it was a crucial series and the Reds were trying to put some fear in Pittsburgh.

It obviously worked. Pittsburgh was 16 games over .500 and 3 games back entering the game. They never again were 16 games over .500 and finished 18 games back.

 

[nits74]

Gerrit Cole, who is obviously a great pitcher with great control, has a higher HBP rate (20 HBP in his career over 1591 batters faced: 1.26%) than Aroldis Chapman (13 over 1186: 1.10%).

For reference, Cole has walked 95 guys unintentionally over his career (5.97% rate), vs. Chapman walking 145 (12.22% rate).

Hmmm.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colege01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/chapmar01.shtml

Statistics are meaningless in this discussion. When Chapman wants to headhunt, he throws at the head with the intention of injuring.

 

[nits74]

Yep --- Chapman did throw at McCutchen in that game in August 2012. No doubt about it. It was a Friday night game and the Reds were in 1st and the Pirates were right behind in 2nd and it was a crucial series and the Reds were trying to put some fear in Pittsburgh.

It obviously worked. Pittsburgh was 16 games over .500 and 3 games back entering the game. They never again were 16 games over .500 and finished 18 games back.

So let's assume you're right about this "working." If I have this straight, you're saying it's OK when the Reds do it in that situation, but when Blanton does it last night (clearly unintended) it's an egregious action. And oh my God, he could have killed poor Byrd. OK, got it.

 

[GregInPitt]

Blanton's pitch clearly just got away. Like your rationalization, this was not a situation where the Pirates wanted to put someone on. Game was still close. And no, you don't intentionally target a team's best player. You've been around Dusty Baker too long. Most teams don't do that.
By the way, Phillips post game interview was very measured and classy. He's a good guy.

Yes, Phillips did conduct a good interview. And his description of the plan forward, "to win the game first.... remember everything...." indicates the stupidity will continue.

The Reds manager was more realistic in describing how both teams pitch inside and that their pitching staffs are successful because of it. And that when you pitch inside as often as they do some batters will get hit. He said all the right things, but didn't say that he would or could move on, as he obviously ordered the hit on Cutch........

 

[michnittlion]

So let's assume you're right about this "working." If I have this straight, you're saying it's OK when the Reds do it in that situation, but when Blanton does it last night (clearly unintended) it's an egregious action. And oh my God, he could have killed poor Byrd. OK, got it.

I'm saying it's alright for a team to respond to hits batsman. Cincinnati responded to Blanton's lack-of-control Saturday night by throwing a breaking-ball at McCutchen today.

I don't know why Pittsburgh didn't do anything back in 2012. They should have.

 

[GregInPitt]

Statistics are meaningless in this discussion. When Chapman wants to headhunt, he throws at the head with the intention of injuring.

Exactly.

And not all pitchers are statistically consistent. By that I mean that walk ratios are not directly correlatable to how often a pitcher tries to overthrow, or misgrips, or bails out of his mechanics on a single pitch and it flys inside or outside.....

The Reds batter that Melancin hit in the 9th was crowding the plate and leaning in trying to get on base. No one with half a brain would believe that a Pitcher would risk his save and the team's win by hitting someone intentionally to put the tying run at the plate. The umps call to throw him out was a joke. The other HBP's were intentional. Statistics mean nothing in this case.

 

[GregInPitt]

Yeah, right ---- the Pirates want the Reds to retaliate on Saturday evening. Sorry, the Reds aren't playing that game. The Pirates will have to improve their 4-9 season record against the Reds by earning it, as opposed to getting Cincinnati off their game.

Looks like the Bucco's improve the record today. Also looks like the Bucco's are 13.5 games ahead of the Reds so they must be doing a few things right. Don't know what game the Reds ARE playing.....

 

[fairgambit]

 

[The Spin Meister]

Gerrit Cole, who is obviously a great pitcher with great control, has a higher HBP rate (20 HBP in his career over 1591 batters faced: 1.26%) than Aroldis Chapman (13 over 1186: 1.10%).

For reference, Cole has walked 95 guys unintentionally over his career (5.97% rate), vs. Chapman walking 145 (12.22% rate).

Hmmm.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colege01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/chapmar01.shtml

-----
First, you can't accurately compare a starter to a relief pitcher, especially a closer. Starters pitch 5-8 innings vs maybe 4 batters for a closer. A lot more time for errant pitches, breaks in concentration, frustration over bad calls or defensive lapses. And in the late innings starters get tired and lose some control. Its why they rarely finish a game.

Chapman rarely faces more than four batters, pitches one inning, and is done. Why not compare Chippy to Melancon who has hit only two batters all year, counting today's hit batsman.

And Chapman is a coward, throwing deadly 100+ MPH at a guy's head knowing he will never step into a batter's box and put himself at risk. I think next time he throws at Cutch, the Bucs should pinch hit with a lousy batter and have him throw the bat at Chippy on the first pitch.....oops, it slipped!!!!

 

[TheGLOV]

The Reds guy that was hit was a lot braver once his team took the field. Watson was staring right at him after hitting him and the Red just stood there.

Pretty ugly for a while.

Agree completely with the Pirates announcers that the Reds could have rationally retaliated last night. By waiting until the 8th today to plunk Cutch it was proper for the Pirates to plunk another Red. Would have been better had it been Byrd again.

3-0 , good guys. With all the trouble the Bucco's have had with the Reds, getting a split of the series at Cincy is a win.

Here is a NON-biased view by somebody who covers the Reds:

http://www.redreporter.com/2015/8/2/9086991/benches-clear-as-reds-fall-to-pirates-3-0

What a major league piece of sh*t this guy is!!

His Reds have done it, on purpose, for years by throwing at Cutch.

F---U you panty waist reporter!!

 

[The Spin Meister]

-----
First, you can't accurately compare a starter to a relief pitcher, especially a closer. Starters pitch 5-8 innings vs maybe 4 batters for a closer. A lot more time for errant pitches, breaks in concentration, frustration over bad calls or defensive lapses. And in the late innings starters get tired and lose some control. Its why they rarely finish a game.

Chapman rarely faces more than four batters, pitches one inning, and is done. Why not compare Chippy to Melancon who has hit only two batters all year, counting today's hit batsman.

And Chapman is a coward, throwing deadly 100+ MPH at a guy's head knowing he will never step into a batter's box and put himself at risk. I think next time he throws at Cutch, the Bucs should pinch hit with a lousy batter and have him throw the bat at Chippy on the first pitch.....oops, it slipped!!!!

---

Oh and again How many of Cole's were on the arm, hands, legs vs the shoulder/head shots of Chippy Chapman.

 

[michnittlion]

-----
First, you can't accurately compare a starter to a relief pitcher, especially a closer. Starters pitch 5-8 innings vs maybe 4 batters for a closer. A lot more time for errant pitches, breaks in concentration, frustration over bad calls or defensive lapses. And in the late innings starters get tired and lose some control. Its why they rarely finish a game.

Chapman rarely faces more than four batters, pitches one inning, and is done. Why not compare Chippy to Melancon who has hit only two batters all year, counting today's hit batsman.

And Chapman is a coward, throwing deadly 100+ MPH at a guy's head knowing he will never step into a batter's box and put himself at risk. I think next time he throws at Cutch, the Bucs should pinch hit with a lousy batter and have him throw the bat at Chippy on the first pitch.....oops, it slipped!!!!

Sure, I'll compare Melancon to Chapman ...

Melancon's career walk rate = 86 in 1415 batters faced (6.08%). Considerably lower than Chapman.
Mealcnon's career HBP rate = 16 in 1415 batters faced (1.13%) Higher than Chapman.

 

[psu7113]

What?!?!?!? "Rationally retaliate" in the 9th Inning of a 2-run game? That is what you are advocating for if you wanted a "rational retaliation" on Saturday night. Byrd got freaking hit (up near the HEAD) in the bottom of the 8th Inning last night!

Cutch gets hit with a breaking-ball today. Big deal. But everything is a big deal to the Pirates, who have led all of Major League Baseball in hits batsman (DO-ing the hitting) in each of 2013, 2014, and 2015. But fair enough. Pittsburgh definitely has a chip on their shoulder and evidently wants to be in bean-ball brawls with one team or another at all times.

Their is a difference between intentionally pitching inside and intentionally HITTING an opposing batter. Apparently, like many easy to understand concepts, you don't get this one.

 

[michnittlion]

Exactly.

And not all pitchers are statistically consistent. By that I mean that walk ratios are not directly correlatable to how often a pitcher tries to overthrow, or misgrips, or bails out of his mechanics on a single pitch and it flys inside or outside.....

The Reds batter that Melancin hit in the 9th was crowding the plate and leaning in trying to get on base. No one with half a brain would believe that a Pitcher would risk his save and the team's win by hitting someone intentionally to put the tying run at the plate. The umps call to throw him out was a joke. The other HBP's were intentional. Statistics mean nothing in this case.

Wait .... you were advocating earlier that the only appropriate time for the Reds to retaliate for Byrd was Saturday night - in a situation "where a pitcher would risk his save and the team's win by hitting someone intentionally to put the tying run at the plate." Exact same thing.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Sure, I'll compare Melancon to Chapman ...

Melancon's career walk rate = 86 in 1415 batters faced (6.08%). Considerably lower than Chapman.
Mealcnon's career HBP rate = 16 in 1415 batters faced (1.13%) Higher than Chapman.

------

Wow, what a huge difference 1.10% vs 1.13%. 16 in 1415 (Melancon) vs 13 in 1186.(Chippy) Statistically even, like I thought. And again how many of Melancon's are at the head/shoulders vs Chippy's?

 

[nits74]

I'm saying it's alright for a team to respond to hits batsman. Cincinnati responded to Blanton's lack-of-control Saturday night by throwing a breaking-ball at McCutchen today.

I don't know why Pittsburgh didn't do anything back in 2012. They should have.

Because it was at the end of the game and they couldn't. The next day the umps warned both teams prior to the game and as a result the Pirates could do nothing without getting their pitcher thrown out. Very Dusty Baker like strategy. Hope that clears it up.

 

[psualt]

Not a curveball. In 2014, his fb averaged 92.8. Cutter a bit less. Slider and changeup mid 80s.

 

[michnittlion]

Because it was at the end of the game and they couldn't. The next day the umps warned both teams prior to the game and as a result the Pirates could do nothing without getting their pitcher thrown out. Very Dusty Baker like strategy. Hope that clears it up.

Well, Mike Leake hit Josh Harrison in the 2nd Inning of the game the very next night. Then Leake actually barked at Harrison to hustle his butt over to 1st base. Only one guy got thrown out in the ensuing kerfuffle (there were not warnings issued prior to the game, FWIW): Clint Hurdle. Then the Reds hit 2 more Pirates on Sunday afternoon.

Let's be honest --- that was the series in 2012 in which Cincinnati took off (eventually winning the NL Central by about 10 games), and when Pittsburgh began their long-slow crumble. Criticize Dusty if you will (I wasn't a big fan of Dusty overall), but he got the better of Pittsburgh on that one.

 

[nits74]

Well, Mike Leake hit Josh Harrison in the 2nd Inning of the game the very next night. Then Leake actually barked at Harrison to hustle his butt over to 1st base. Only one guy got thrown out in the ensuing kerfuffle (there were not warnings issued prior to the game, FWIW): Clint Hurdle. Then the Reds hit 2 more Pirates on Sunday afternoon.

Let's be honest --- that was the series in 2012 in which Cincinnati took off (eventually winning the NL Central by about 10 games), and when Pittsburgh began their long-slow crumble. Criticize Dusty if you will (I wasn't a big fan of Dusty overall), but he got the better of Pittsburgh on that one.

We may be thinking of different series (clearly remember the reporting that there had been clubhouse warnings), but in any case I doubt that was why they crumbled. They just weren't as good or ready in 2012. Cincy had a very good team in 2012. Amazing how fast things have gone south for them. Baseball is the hardest sport to project.

 

[GregInPitt]

Wait .... you were advocating earlier that the only appropriate time for the Reds to retaliate for Byrd was Saturday night - in a situation "where a pitcher would risk his save and the team's win by hitting someone intentionally to put the tying run at the plate." Exact same thing.

The Reds didn't do it did they? Or to start today's game. The Reds hit Cutch every series. And they got it back today. I don't think Melancin hit the batter on purpose. You apparently do.

 

[bison13]

As long as Ray searage has been the Pirates pitching coach they have gone to more 2 seam fastball pitching. What does a 2 seam FB from a RHP do to a RHB? It runs inside, its a philosophy that has helped Morton, Burnett and others. Burnett and Liriano have always been wild, consider how many HBP occurred above the ribs on FB, thats the only way to compare.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Chapman is not a headhunter. I have probably watched more Reds games over the course of his career than anybody on this board and I think my opinion is pretty unbiased. Shocked to see people accusing him of such. However, he does occadionaly have control issues.
Missed today's game. Will have to check out a replay later on.

 

[Mixolydian]

I'm saying it's alright for a team to respond to hits batsman. Cincinnati responded to Blanton's lack-of-control Saturday night by throwing a breaking-ball at McCutchen today.

I don't know why Pittsburgh didn't do anything back in 2012. They should have.

It wasn't a breaking ball you dolt. Are you ever right about anything for chrissakes???