OT: In no surprise Dustin Johnson chases Saudi cash

Marylovesthelions

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This issue has me perplexed. Don't we get tons of golfers from around the world playing on the PGA tour? don't they often play in the Euro tour? Why is the Saudi tour any different?

I was shocked at the ferociousness of the attack the Golf Channel took on Michelson. Of course, as soon as somebody doesn't do their bidding, they are suddenly hooked on coke and gambling. Why didn't they expose that back when they were doing the PGA's bidding? Seems odd that they'd suddenly get virtuous. Why is a player playing out his contract with the Guardians and taking a huge payday from the Red Sox or Yankees OK if an independent PGA player not be allowed to play in another tour?

Good reading on Vijay Sing's issues with the PGA tour. The PGA publicly hammered him until it was proven he did nothing wrong. Then, the PGA figures "ah what the hell, no problem ruining his chances to get endorsements. We are the effing PGA dammit!".

time for the PGA to get taken down a few notches, IMHO>
You would have to know the word each of their contracts to find out if there are forbidden playing in any other league. If not this may have the trappings of anti-trust for the PGA. Penn state fans, the home of the greedy, money grabbing head coach with a mediocre record. has validity complaining about athletes seeking more money.
 

roswelllion

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The problem with LIV aside from the real dirty cash, dirtier than most other cash, is that nobody cares. I know a lot about golf, I've been in and around the business for 25+ years. Nobody gives a crap about a LIV tournament. And yes, a LIV event is a tournament, not a championship and there is a huge difference. If you asked when LIV last played, where they played, who played and who won, I couldn't give you a decent answer except I did catch a headline that I think Charl Schwatzel won one of the tourneys but that's all I know. This will eventually be it's demise. If it can't capture the imagination of those who love to play and watch golf, it is inventible it will die. If the golf population at large doesn't pickup more interest it just won't work.
Many of the players will come away set for life, if they weren't already, but at what cost to overall health of high level championship golf and did it really change their life? These guys already travel to the best spots on a private jet with a team of support people, how is LIV changing that? Let's face it LIV isn't a series of championship competitions, it's a small invitational skins game, like casino's put on for high rollers at Shadow Creek or Cascata. Sorry just not interesting, not my fault, their fault for lack of imagination.
Greg Norman would sell his first born if meant a new branding opportunity.
If it was all about watching who won the money the most important stroke would be the guy who has a 4 footer to determine if he gets 2nd place money of falls back into the 4 way tie for 3rd, but that's not how this works, even though that uninteresting final putt was worth 280 thousand dollars. The trophy is the draw for public at large, not the big fake check at the end. They handed Cam Smith the Claret Jug not the big fake check and that's why everyone was watching.
"They handed Cam Smith the Claret Jug not a big fake check". Well that didn't wear well did it
 
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Relayer

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This really waters down the President's Cup. Half of the International team is now on the Liv Tour. Feel bad for those who bought tickets for a watered down event. They sold all 120,000 tix for the 3 days.

 

Obliviax

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This really waters down the President's Cup. Half of the International team is now on the Liv Tour. Feel bad for those who bought tickets for a watered down event. They sold all 120,000 tix for the 3 days.

Wow. Some of those are not a surprise (Cam Smith) but others are. Really guts the IT team, as you stated. It is going to be interesting to see where this goes. I mean, I am not buying a ticket to watch Marc Leishman and Cameron Tringale. And I think there is a valid argument to be made that the only LIV players got there by using the PGA tour. So if you are an up-and-comer, can you get there on LIV? At the same time, are you going to command the endorsement money? Is anyone going to remember Harold Varner III when he only makes a handful of starts in the USA? Can LIV sustain these kinds of payouts until they get some kind of return?

I mean, how long would it take you to forget TJ Watt if he goes to the Canadian Football Leauge and would you watch?
 

Relayer

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The DP World Tour is having their flagship event at Wentworth in a couple weeks. 18 Liv players have entered. This could be a must watch tournament, especially after what Rory said. Considering the recent alliance between the DP Tour and PGA Tour, one is banning Liv guys and the other is allowing them?

 

roswelllion

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Wow. Some of those are not a surprise (Cam Smith) but others are. Really guts the IT team, as you stated. It is going to be interesting to see where this goes. I mean, I am not buying a ticket to watch Marc Leishman and Cameron Tringale. And I think there is a valid argument to be made that the only LIV players got there by using the PGA tour. So if you are an up-and-comer, can you get there on LIV? At the same time, are you going to command the endorsement money? Is anyone going to remember Harold Varner III when he only makes a handful of starts in the USA? Can LIV sustain these kinds of payouts until they get some kind of return?

I mean, how long would it take you to forget TJ Watt if he goes to the Canadian Football Leauge and would you watch?
Couple thoughts:
. What about the up and comer. As long as LIV is alive, will they make a lot more money. Yes
. If the LIV folds will the PGA welcome them back, - Yes
. The PGA tour made any player or made the LIV - True but only because it was the only game in town not due to anything they did. In truth it has always een the players that make the tour and not the opposite. Arnold and Jack, Trevino and Watson, Tiger and Phil etc. What happens to golf ratings when they don't have one or two superstars. Back to Harold Varner or Tringale what does the PGA tour to promote them? Nothing Unless they are leading they get zero coverage. Except for the 2-3 leaders each week all the coverage is on 5-6 on the big names.
. Regardless of the tour the majors, the Ryder cup, and maybe 2-3 other events are the only things that the big names care about and that is driven by a combination of the event and the course. [Pebble Beach, TPC the Memorial]
. I take the view that the PGA has ridden the backs of famous golfers.
 

Obliviax

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Couple thoughts:
. What about the up and comer. As long as LIV is alive, will they make a lot more money. Yes
. If the LIV folds will the PGA welcome them back, - Yes
. The PGA tour made any player or made the LIV - True but only because it was the only game in town not due to anything they did. In truth it has always een the players that make the tour and not the opposite. Arnold and Jack, Trevino and Watson, Tiger and Phil etc. What happens to golf ratings when they don't have one or two superstars. Back to Harold Varner or Tringale what does the PGA tour to promote them? Nothing Unless they are leading they get zero coverage. Except for the 2-3 leaders each week all the coverage is on 5-6 on the big names.
. Regardless of the tour the majors, the Ryder cup, and maybe 2-3 other events are the only things that the big names care about and that is driven by a combination of the event and the course. [Pebble Beach, TPC the Memorial]
. I take the view that the PGA has ridden the backs of famous golfers.
fair enough....my only comment is that it will be a long time until LIV tour events are must-see TV, especially given the time zone differences. It is going to be hard for a player to make, or maintain, their presence in that environment. of course, if they win a major or two that is a different story.

But that does make me wonder, with the few LIV events, will they be tourny ready for the majors?

LIV events this year:

1Centurion ClubHertfordshire, EnglandJune 9-11
2Pumpkin RidgePortland, OregonJune 30 - July 2
3Trump National Golf Club BedminsterBedminster, New JerseyJuly 29-31
4The InternationalBoston, MassachusettsSeptember 2-4
5Rich Harvest FarmsChicago, IllinoisSeptember 16-18
6StonehillBangkok, ThailandOctober 7-9
7Royal Greens Golf & Country ClubJeddah, Saudi ArabiaOctober 14-16
8Trump National Golf Club DoralMiami, FloridaOctober 27-30
 
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NoBareFeet

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This really waters down the President's Cup. Half of the International team is now on the Liv Tour. Feel bad for those who bought tickets for a watered down event. They sold all 120,000 tix for the 3 days.

That's surprising about the ticket sales. I consider myself a huge golf fan, but even I don't care about the Presidents Cup.
 

roswelllion

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There are still 3 events left and in the first 4 Pat Perez has earned $3.7 million. in his 21 year career his best year was $4.1 million in over 20 events. He needs one good round out of three to contribute to the 4 Aces team. Anyone still wondering why anyone would join?
 

richie83

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Not wondering why anyone would join, but it confirms its a JV league with him winning that much.
 

Obliviax

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"First, Greg Norman has to go." Helluva statement from Tiger given Tiger is such a huge historian of PGA golf and holds many great players in very high esteem.

 
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lowhandicapper

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"First, Greg Norman has to go." Helluva statement from Tiger given Tiger is such a huge historian of PGA golf and holds many great players in very high esteem.
The thing that Norman doesn't get and why LIV & the PGA Tour are now both struggling is that viewers are not compelled by just watching people play for money. It's much deeper than that. Viewers want to watch people play for the Green Jacket or the Claret Jug, not just money. Norman only understands his point of view, which is the love of playing for money. He has had a hard beef with the PGA Tour since an article he penned in 1982.
If people were compelled to watch people play for big bucks they could fly to Vegas and watch a couple chops play for a million at Shadow Creek or Cascata on any given day, which happens regularly.
I saw Mickelson is the highest paid male athlete of 2022 at 133 million, but at what cost? What has he cost the game that gave him everything? My opinion is it is a lot. LIV will never compel golf fans because the only thing they are playing for is money and that's not how this works. Money is a means for the "players" of any sport to thrive and survive however it's the drive of a competitors to compete for a championship that compels its audience.
 

Obliviax

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The thing that Norman doesn't get and why LIV & the PGA Tour are now both struggling is that viewers are not compelled by just watching people play for money. It's much deeper than that. Viewers want to watch people play for the Green Jacket or the Claret Jug, not just money. Norman only understands his point of view, which is the love of playing for money. He has had a hard beef with the PGA Tour since an article he penned in 1982.
If people were compelled to watch people play for big bucks they could fly to Vegas and watch a couple chops play for a million at Shadow Creek or Cascata on any given day, which happens regularly.
I saw Mickelson is the highest paid male athlete of 2022 at 133 million, but at what cost? What has he cost the game that gave him everything? My opinion is it is a lot. LIV will never compel golf fans because the only thing they are playing for is money and that's not how this works. Money is a means for the "players" of any sport to thrive and survive however it's the drive of a competitors to compete for a championship that compels its audience.
All good points. But we also have to remember that the PGA tour is synonymous with the USA. Norman isn't American and has zero allegiance to the USA. He's a globalist who thinks globally. If he can make money and develop a market backed by VERY deep pockets, why not? It'll all settle out soon enough.
 
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Obliviax

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Because the concept is backward with him...
Norman: Money will make things important.
Reality: Important things bring in the money.
You can't manufacture certain things, though many have put that theory to the test over the years in many a thing.
well put. I think there is value in more international golf. I get that they are poaching "names" to get people to watch. I don't think it is sustainable. To me, it is like watching people buy stock in Tesla. It is very promising and revolutionary. But there is no way it was worth what people were paying for it. But it is Saudi Arabia. I know people in Vegas have some unreal stories about when the sultans role into town, rent a 15,000 sq foot house and hire a couple dozen strippers to adorn each room for the length of their stay with plates of drugs on every coffee table. I think it is good that they spend the money. Hopefully, lefty and team will invest it back in the states.
 
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lowhandicapper

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well put. I think there is value in more international golf. I get that they are poaching "names" to get people to watch. I don't think it is sustainable. To me, it is like watching people buy stock in Tesla. It is very promising and revolutionary. But there is no way it was worth what people were paying for it. But it is Saudi Arabia. I know people in Vegas have some unreal stories about when the sultans role into town, rent a 15,000 sq foot house and hire a couple dozen strippers to adorn each room for the length of their stay with plates of drugs on every coffee table. I think it is good that they spend the money. Hopefully, lefty and team will invest it back in the states.
Golf has always been an international game...Always. LIV isn't finding a new equation for pi. International stars have always been a big part of golf be it Vardon, Locke, Player, Monty, Seve, Norman, Els, Faldo, Rory, Rahm, etc.
Nothing is new here....except a shitpile of free money that is trying to buy something. What that is, nobody knows for sure but I can assure you Saudi's aren't doing it for pay equality in professional golf, as sometimes contended. I'm relativity confident that the Saudi's don't care about any type of equality.
 

The Spin Meister

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The thing that Norman doesn't get and why LIV & the PGA Tour are now both struggling is that viewers are not compelled by just watching people play for money. It's much deeper than that. Viewers want to watch people play for the Green Jacket or the Claret Jug, not just money. Norman only understands his point of view, which is the love of playing for money. He has had a hard beef with the PGA Tour since an article he penned in 1982.
If people were compelled to watch people play for big bucks they could fly to Vegas and watch a couple chops play for a million at Shadow Creek or Cascata on any given day, which happens regularly.
I saw Mickelson is the highest paid male athlete of 2022 at 133 million, but at what cost? What has he cost the game that gave him everything? My opinion is it is a lot. LIV will never compel golf fans because the only thing they are playing for is money and that's not how this works. Money is a means for the "players" of any sport to thrive and survive however it's the drive of a competitors to compete for a championship that compels its audience.
People watch more to see the best play against the best than because of traditions. Don’t get me wrong here, watching the Masters is huge because of tradition. But if it becomes a tournament of second tier players it will decline in importance and viewership.

And that is the biggest problem with LIV. It will decide the top players and both leagues will not be playing the best golf possible. That may end up hurting both.

What could happen five or ten years down the road is that the two agree to have a year ending tournament with the top ten of each league in a Super Bowl of Golf like the NFL-AFL did some sixty years ago.
 
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lowhandicapper

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People watch more to see the best play against the best than because of traditions. Don’t get me wrong here, watching the Masters is huge because of tradition. But if it becomes a tournament of second tier players it will decline in importance and viewership.
That's exactly right. The reason the Green Jacket is so prestigious is that you have to beat all the best players in the world that week, even though the Masters is the smallest and weakest field of the majors due to being an invitational. People don't care, they want to see the best players play each other on the best golf courses. Nobody is ever gonna care that the tournament has a 30 million dollar purse because that ONLY matters to the players, not the viewers. LIV wants to hurt the PGA Tour by reducing eyeballs which reduces sponsor interest and money, because money is of no consequence for LIV....at the moment....Even the wealthiest of the wealthy get tired of throwing money at things with no return. LIV has much weaker players than the PGA Tour currently and that's gonna be a problem for them at some point.
 

roswelllion

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The thing that Norman doesn't get and why LIV & the PGA Tour are now both struggling is that viewers are not compelled by just watching people play for money. It's much deeper than that. Viewers want to watch people play for the Green Jacket or the Claret Jug, not just money. Norman only understands his point of view, which is the love of playing for money. He has had a hard beef with the PGA Tour since an article he penned in 1982.
If people were compelled to watch people play for big bucks they could fly to Vegas and watch a couple chops play for a million at Shadow Creek or Cascata on any given day, which happens regularly.
I saw Mickelson is the highest paid male athlete of 2022 at 133 million, but at what cost? What has he cost the game that gave him everything? My opinion is it is a lot. LIV will never compel golf fans because the only thing they are playing for is money and that's not how this works. Money is a means for the "players" of any sport to thrive and survive however it's the drive of a competitors to compete for a championship that compels its audience.
You realize you are describing 4.5 events. US Open, The Open, Masters, PGA 1/2, just because it doesn't stir the emotions like the other 3 and the the Ryder Cup. I'll give you another 1/2 point for the Player's championship. Every other event is FOR THE MONEY.
I think people watch golf because they enjoy watching the best in the world compete. Who cares which tour it is on.
I played golf yesterday with a complete stranger. Turns out he was a really good golfer [2 handicap] and tuned into the golf scene. His son is in the PGA apprenticeship program and works in Myrtle Beach at the Fazio course in Barefoot landing and will get his club pro status within 12 months. Out of the blue he asked me about LIV. We chatted and he said he loves it [surprised me a little] and he had gone down to the LIV team championship in Miami. He said it was a ball and fun to watch.. He also said he thinks Rory and JT are starting to come across as pompous a-holes. his point was hey if they don't like LIV fine stay away, but why are they the definitive spokespeople for other pros.

Now about the money. You are right fans don't care about the money which accounts for 95% of all the events in either tour. Who does care about the money? The guys making a living playing golf. For all but maybe the top 10 players in the world it is about the money. Why do we care if they play and get paid unbelievable amounts of money as long as we get to watch them play.

Regarding Norman. I don't know his history with the PGA but I think he went from being a likable "Shark" to a jerk after Faldo beat him coming from 6 back in the Masters. After that some folks talked about his choking and it seems he had a case of butt hurt ever since then.

One final note. Dustin Johnson between signing bonus and the $35 mil he earned playing in 6 events earned DOUBLE in 2022 what he earned in a very successful 14 year PGA career. Why not?
This LIV tour is like winning the lotto for these guys. Is it sustainable? It shouldn't be, but with oil above $70/barrel a couple billion dollars is a drop in the proverbial bucket [or should we say the barrel]
 
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Obliviax

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That's exactly right. The reason the Green Jacket is so prestigious is that you have to beat all the best players in the world that week, even though the Masters is the smallest and weakest field of the majors due to being an invitational. People don't care, they want to see the best players play each other on the best golf courses. Nobody is ever gonna care that the tournament has a 30 million dollar purse because that ONLY matters to the players, not the viewers. LIV wants to hurt the PGA Tour by reducing eyeballs which reduces sponsor interest and money, because money is of no consequence for LIV....at the moment....Even the wealthiest of the wealthy get tired of throwing money at things with no return. LIV has much weaker players than the PGA Tour currently and that's gonna be a problem for them at some point.
I think people are conflating several issues. The Masters and Open have nothing to do with the PGA. I don't believe that the US Open does either (its an "open"). If McNittany were here he'd correct me.

The PGA tour is really a group of secondary events. The best of which is the The PLAYERS Championship and The Memorial (Jacks tourny). They also do the season champion, the president's cup and the Ryder Cup.

The LIV players will all play the four majors and that is where players make their mark.

 
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The Spin Meister

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You realize you are describing 4.5 events. US Open, The Open, Masters, PGA 1/2, just because it doesn't stir the emotions like the other 3 and the the Ryder Cup. I'll give you another 1/2 point for the Player's championship. Every other event is FOR THE MONEY.
I think people watch golf because they enjoy watching the best in the world compete. Who cares which tour it is on.
I played golf yesterday with a complete stranger. Turns out he was a really good golfer [2 handicap] and tuned into the golf scene. His son is in the PGA apprenticeship program and works in Myrtle Beach at the Fazio course in Barefoot landing and will get his club pro status within 12 months. Out of the blue he asked me about LIV. We chatted and he said he loves it [surprised me a little] and he had gone down to the LIV team championship in Miami. He said it was a ball and fun to watch.. He also said he thinks Rory and JT are starting to come across as pompous a-holes. his point was hey if they don't like LIV fine stay away, but why are they the definitive spokespeople for other pros.

Now about the money. You are right fans don't care about the money which accounts for 95% of all the events in either tour. Who does care about the money? The guys making a living playing golf. For all but maybe the top 10 players in the world it is about the money. Why do we care if they play and get paid unbelievable amounts of money as long as we get to watch them play.

Regarding Norman. I don't know his history with the PGA but I think he went from being a likable "Shark" to a jerk after Faldo beat him coming from 6 back in the Masters. After that some folks talked about his choking and it seems he had a case of butt hurt ever since then.

One final note. Dustin Johnson between signing bonus and the $35 mil he earned playing in 6 events earned DOUBLE in 2022 what he earned in a very successful 14 year PGA career. Why not?
This LIV tour is like winning the lotto for these guys. Is it sustainable? It shouldn't be, but with oil above $70/barrel a couple billion dollars is a drop in the proverbial bucket [or should we say the barrel]
Yep, it’s all about the money. And it is money that caused this clusterball. There are too many events on the PGA without time off….because of the money. Could have had three day tournaments instead of four but they don’t ….for the money. The season is too long….for the money.

Players complained for years to no avail. Now they have options….because of the money. So the PGA shouldn’t hate on the Saudis. Or blame the Saudis. They just need to go find a mirror.
 

lowhandicapper

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I think people are conflating several issues. The Masters and Open have nothing to do with the PGA. I don't believe that the US Open does either (its an "open"). If McNittany were here he'd correct me.

The PGA tour is really a group of secondary events. The best of which is the The PLAYERS Championship and The Memorial (Jacks tourny). They also do the season champion, the president's cup and the Ryder Cup.

The LIV players will all play the four majors and that is where players make their mark.

None of the majors are part of the PGA Tour. They are simply PGA Tour sanctioned events run by the USGA, Augusta National, The R&A and the PGA of America, not to be confused with the PGA Tour.
 

lowhandicapper

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Yep, it’s all about the money. And it is money that caused this clusterball. There are too many events on the PGA without time off….because of the money. Could have had three day tournaments instead of four but they don’t ….for the money. The season is too long….for the money.

Players complained for years to no avail. Now they have options….because of the money. So the PGA shouldn’t hate on the Saudis. Or blame the Saudis. They just need to go find a mirror.
Lets not let cause, effect and result become unclear.
Players play for the money, viewers watch for the competition and trophy.
Nobody ever said, "Hey, I'm gonna head over to the local PGA Tour event to see wins the most money."
They go to watch people play golf or compete on the course or to see the course itself. The bigger (more prestigious) the championship itself is, the finer the players and play will be, which is what people come to watch.
It's really that simple.
 

roswelllion

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That's exactly right. The reason the Green Jacket is so prestigious is that you have to beat all the best players in the world that week, even though the Masters is the smallest and weakest field of the majors due to being an invitational. People don't care, they want to see the best players play each other on the best golf courses. Nobody is ever gonna care that the tournament has a 30 million dollar purse because that ONLY matters to the players, not the viewers. LIV wants to hurt the PGA Tour by reducing eyeballs which reduces sponsor interest and money, because money is of no consequence for LIV....at the moment....Even the wealthiest of the wealthy get tired of throwing money at things with no return. LIV has much weaker players than the PGA Tour currently and that's gonna be a problem for them at some point.
Well it better happen soon if it is going to happen. LIV has an appeal to 3 different groups of players.
1. Players in the bottom half of the top 125. Always "on the bubble" of losing their card. As a result forced to play every event they can which is a pretty tiring schedule. LIV equals easily more money, less work and guaranteed money.
2. Big name players on the long end of their career. See above more money, less work, [Sergio, Westwood etc]
3. Super big names who get offered a huge signing bonus. Cam Smith, DJ, Brooks K, Dechambeau [?]

If the LIV wants to expand all they need are 10-15 from group 1, 3-4 from group 2 and 1 or 2 from group one and the tours are at parity.

For any but the most ardent fans, who are the big name draws on the PGA tour not named Thomas, Rory [only on the tour half the time] or Spieth?
 

roswelllion

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I think people are conflating several issues. The Masters and Open have nothing to do with the PGA. I don't believe that the US Open does either (its an "open"). If McNittany were here he'd correct me.

The PGA tour is really a group of secondary events. The best of which is the The PLAYERS Championship and The Memorial (Jacks tourny). They also do the season champion, the president's cup and the Ryder Cup.

The LIV players will all play the four majors and that is where players make their mark.

Spot on. Ironic lowhandicapper is focusing on non PGA events as the reason to defend the PGA.
 

roswelllion

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Yeah for the players. Not for the viewing public. Which is what ultimately generates the money. Things don't get interesting because people are playing for the money, the money is a result of other factors.
You are correct. So what does the Texas Valero Open or any of the other 20 not name events have to offer to the viewer that the LIV doesn't. The field isn't better. I would argue LIV offers the team concept [it's popularity will continue to grow], the shotgun start lets us view all golfers and all 18 holes rather than just the last 8 holes for the top groups.
 

Obliviax

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You are correct. So what does the Texas Valero Open or any of the other 20 not name events have to offer to the viewer that the LIV doesn't. The field isn't better. I would argue LIV offers the team concept [it's popularity will continue to grow], the shotgun start lets us view all golfers and all 18 holes rather than just the last 8 holes for the top groups.
Well, to me, the PGA has an entire program. For example, the events are throughout the USA, there are over two dozen, there are the Ryder/President's Cups, The Golf Channel (IDK if the PGA has any rights but the channel has been VERY angry over LIV), and FedEx Cup. there is also the senior tour. It will also be interesting to see how much sponsorship money the LIV players can drive with far less TV exposure.

LIV is a threat but has a LONG way to go.
 
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lowhandicapper

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You are correct. So what does the Texas Valero Open or any of the other 20 not name events have to offer to the viewer that the LIV doesn't. The field isn't better. I would argue LIV offers the team concept [it's popularity will continue to grow], the shotgun start lets us view all golfers and all 18 holes rather than just the last 8 holes for the top groups.
Because tradition matters. Its literally why college football has blue blood programs....Because tradition matters.

Shotgun starts are for corporate outings.
 

roswelllion

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Aug 18, 2003
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Because tradition matters. Its literally why college football has blue blood programs....Because tradition matters.

Shotgun starts are for corporate outings.
Tradition matters- Again you are conflating the big 4 and Ryder Cup with the other 25 events. Tradition at the Houston Open?
Shotgun starts are for corporate outings, AND players playing under the same conditions, AND viewers getting to watch and entire course and an entire field AND players not having to get up at 4:00 in the morning for an 8:00 a,m tee time after finishing at 7:00pm the day before.
My sense is you were against the AFL [if you are old enough] the FEDEX cup with no tradition and only about the money, NIL, Transfer portal, overtime instead of ties etc.
I am not crazy about some of those but all were a result of the same thing. Greedy overlords [NCAA, PGA] and expanding opportunity [LIV AFL]
 

lowhandicapper

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Aug 24, 2021
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Tradition matters- Again you are conflating the big 4 and Ryder Cup with the other 25 events. Tradition at the Houston Open?
Shotgun starts are for corporate outings, AND players playing under the same conditions, AND viewers getting to watch and entire course and an entire field AND players not having to get up at 4:00 in the morning for an 8:00 a,m tee time after finishing at 7:00pm the day before.
My sense is you were against the AFL [if you are old enough] the FEDEX cup with no tradition and only about the money, NIL, Transfer portal, overtime instead of ties etc.
I am not crazy about some of those but all were a result of the same thing. Greedy overlords [NCAA, PGA] and expanding opportunity [LIV AFL]
I'm not old enough.
There is definitely a sense of tradition at all the "regular" tour stops. The same charities and organizations and people have volunteered to assist them annually and the same dad takes his same kids to the Greater Hartford Open every year when a handful of the best players show up. The John Deere has a tremendous amount of local tradition that ties the "fan" to the event. Hometown support, volunteering, gathering community. You're heavily undervaluing these things with regard to these events. Its a real big thing locally even for the weakest of field PGA Tour event.
A regular season NFL game has less interest than an NFL playoff game which has less interest that the super bowl. Such is just normal sports politics nationally or internationally but locally its the huge deal.
I know a lot of guys that can hit a 600 yard par 5 in 2 with a short iron like Rory, I don't know a lot of them that could do it under tournament pressure.
 

lowhandicapper

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There is definitely a sense of tradition at all the "regular" tour stops. The same charities and organizations and people have volunteered to assist them annually and the same dad takes his same kids to the Greater Hartford Open every year when a handful of the best players show up. The John Deere has a tremendous amount of local tradition that ties the "fan" to the event. Hometown support, volunteering, gathering community. You're heavily undervaluing these things with regard to these events. Its a real big thing locally even for the weakest of field PGA Tour event.
LIV has stolen from those things by weakening those fields for that Dad and his kids in order to enrich the players only, not the fans (let's be clear about that) guys who were already riding around the country in private jets, playing the best golf courses in the world for money. The PGA Tour was a good product for the fan, it has been diminished by LIV and for what? So the players can live a more lavish lifestyle? LIV isn't meant to replace but to break. The fans are the one who lose.
Geez when does it end?
 

The Spin Meister

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An altered state
Lets not let cause, effect and result become unclear.
Players play for the money, viewers watch for the competition and trophy.
Nobody ever said, "Hey, I'm gonna head over to the local PGA Tour event to see wins the most money."
They go to watch people play golf or compete on the course or to see the course itself. The bigger (more prestigious) the championship itself is, the finer the players and play will be, which is what people come to watch.
It's really that simple.
But it wasn’t fans that caused LIV to exist or for many top players to go there. It was money that drove the PGA to over expand. Money for networks. Money for sponsors. And money that invented LIV.
 
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lowhandicapper

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But it wasn’t fans that caused LIV to exist or for many top players to go there. It was money that drove the PGA to over expand. Money for networks. Money for sponsors. And money that invented LIV.
Exactly and that's why it's unsustainable. By breaking apart the sport you choke the money as you outlined it. Money from a nation is expansive, because they can literally print it in some ways. But that foundation is weak for sport. That foundation is solid in the business world because that's what business is made of but in sport, it can only be taken so far. Sports are solidly based in work ethic, teamwork, tradition and integrity. They can exist successfully without money, however the same can't be said in reverse. The purity of sport can only cleanse the lust for money so much.
 

Obliviax

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It is a business. If he can make more money , all power to him. If you had his talent I' m sure you would do the same.
I agree Walleye. Frankly, I don't care about LIV or the PGA. It is clear that many PGA players have been unhappy for a long time. Competition works, its great, everything improves or dies on the vine. PGA had an exclusive country club and pushed people around as a result. No more!

The road may be bumpy, progress may not be linear, but it will be better for all fans in the long run.
 
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Still in State College

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LIV was smart to engage the super casual fan by signing a bunch of guys that people know and think are still at the top of the game but haven't been for a while. Mickelson, Westwood, Sergio, Poulter, etc. Couple that with guys still playing at a reasonable level like Johnson and the guys that may be too injured to contend anymore like Koepka and DeChambeau and it gives you a compelling roster from 30,000 feet. The truth is the only guy in LIV that was contending week in, and week out is Smith, but it looks good. It makes people think that LIV has all the good players.

The money sounds good but some of the information from the injunction that came out is that some guys are playing against their bonus. LIV attorneys said it in court then denied it afterward. So there is a lot of sketchiness to the whole thing.

The other thing with LIV is all the Saudis have to do is get bored for a minute and it is all gone.

Good luck to Chase Koepka, Pat Perez, Charles Howell III, and others that got to cash checks that they never would have earned otherwise.
 

lowhandicapper

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It is a business. If he can make more money , all power to him. If you had his talent I' m sure you would do the same.
It's not. It's a sport, which isn't a business. Which like other sports is constantly and tirelessly tried over and over to turn into a business by non-sports sycophants. It often works monetarily and momentarily but what you end up with is irrevocably broken cycle of bullshit for everyone who actually loves and supports that particular sport.