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OT. Buying house from family

meanmiJ01

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2003
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My wife and I are looking to buy my grandmothers house that is now moved into an assisted living facility. Will be dealing with my mom and aunt to make this all happen. My parents are in very good financial position whereas my aunt is not in the same. My mom isn't concerned in the least with the monetary aspect of it where the vibes the aunt has put of is everything will have a price.

The wife and I are taking them out to dinner to get a game plan set but I was hoping for some input on any other questions we should be asking. The key points that we need to know is.
Who do you want to come up with price?(other than me)
When can we get to closing?
Time frame you can clean out house?

This is where we are looking for input after those two main points.

Have a contractor ready to do the remodeling we want and financially with the bank we are good to go. Another curve ball is the wife is due with number 2 in mid June.

Any and all help and advise would be greatly appreciated.
 
some thoughts...
  • get a real estate agent to appraise it. That can be the home price.
  • consider buying the home from her in payments instead of getting a mortgage loan. That may be better for her, financially. But you'd have to get an attorney and draw up a contract. It is not unusual but the guidelines have to be clear.
  • if you go the purchase route, you may be able to get a local realtor to handle the transaction but at a much lower commission. (anyone in the family or a family friend of a realtor?). This is a much more common transaction and the mortgage processor will see it as a standard (less risk) which should allow you to close on it quicker.
 
The big problem is grandma's status as a Medicaid recipient. If she is getting Medicaid now, unlikely since she still owns a house, she would lose it the day your purchase $$ hits her bank account. Unless your aunt and Mom own some of the house, it is no business of theirs how much you pay. At some point Medicaid is going to review the amount you paid to be sure there was not some sort of lowball sale. Grandma's Medicare will pay 80% of her costs and then the Assisted living facility will take he other 20% from her bank acct until it is all gone. THEN, G'ma is eligible for Medicaid.

Get a lawyer who specializes in elder law. Then do what s/he says.
 
My wife and I are looking to buy my grandmothers house that is now moved into an assisted living facility. Will be dealing with my mom and aunt to make this all happen. My parents are in very good financial position whereas my aunt is not in the same. My mom isn't concerned in the least with the monetary aspect of it where the vibes the aunt has put of is everything will have a price.

The wife and I are taking them out to dinner to get a game plan set but I was hoping for some input on any other questions we should be asking. The key points that we need to know is.
Who do you want to come up with price?(other than me)
When can we get to closing?
Time frame you can clean out house?

This is where we are looking for input after those two main points.

Have a contractor ready to do the remodeling we want and financially with the bank we are good to go. Another curve ball is the wife is due with number 2 in mid June.

Any and all help and advise would be greatly appreciated.

In addition to all of the above......don't just buy it because it's grandma's house. Often it's easy to overlook all the work that needs to be done, or overlook other aspects of the house that you don't like.
 
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Get a lawyer who specializes in elder law. Then do what s/he says.

That's a 10-4 Dem.....
nice.jpg
 
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That's a 10-4 Dem.....
nice.jpg
At the end of life, all but the wealthiest Americans who go to nursing homes will face the Medicaid issue I described. If you are old and you have lotsa assets, AND you feel you might be headed to a nursing home for 10 years, start planning now to give stuff away. Your elder law specialist is the ticket.
 
At the end of life, all but the wealthiest Americans who go to nursing homes will face the Medicaid issue I described. If you are old and you have lotsa assets, AND you feel you might be headed to a nursing home for 10 years, start planning now to give stuff away. Your elder law specialist is the ticket.
image.jpg
 
Since you say your grandmom is currently in assisted living, I assume your focus is on the actual execution of the real estate sale as opposed to you asking on how to structure for purposes of medical assistance. If the question is also directed from a medical assistance standpoint, you are likely aware that any consideration for county aid will ask for any transfers of property within a 60 month period of your application for assistance. So, any sale of property for less than fair market value will come under scrutiny. So, let's say the property is sold to you for a dollar and then your grandmother spends the dollar and applies for assistance. You obviously know this won't be respected. If you sell the property and she uses those funds for assisted living, then she would have to extinguish those funds before she can apply and get assistance.

The sale of the real estate is more straightforward and routine. An appraisal will help to determine value and the procedural aspects of selling the property can be handled by a party of your choosing.

If the property is at bargain, be aware and read through the gift tax considerations.
 
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The big problem is grandma's status as a Medicaid recipient. If she is getting Medicaid now, unlikely since she still owns a house, she would lose it the day your purchase $$ hits her bank account. Unless your aunt and Mom own some of the house, it is no business of theirs how much you pay. At some point Medicaid is going to review the amount you paid to be sure there was not some sort of lowball sale. Grandma's Medicare will pay 80% of her costs and then the Assisted living facility will take he other 20% from her bank acct until it is all gone. THEN, G'ma is eligible for Medicaid.

Get a lawyer who specializes in elder law. Then do what s/he says.

I don't know how the Medicaid program (a federal program that is administered in each state by a state agency) works in West Virginia, but Medicare and Medicaid are two different programs. Medicare is supposed to pay for medical care expenses, NOT for the cost of living in an assisted living facility or skilled nursing facility. Medicaid, on the other hand, WILL pay for the cost of living in an assisted living facility or skilled nursing facility IF the facility in question is not a strictly "private pay" facility. But in order to qualify for Medicaid benefits, a person seeking those benefits has to satisfy applicable eligibility requirements both with respect to his or her assets and with respect to his or her income. Frequently, the person must first "spend down" his or her assets before becoming eligible.

However, as Dem's post suggested (without saying so explicitly), a person's primary residence is typically an exempt asset, meaning that it is not counted for purposes of determining whether he or she has assets with an aggregate value below the maximum allowable for Medicaid eligibility. In order to ensure that his or her principal residence is treated as an exempt asset for Medicaid eligibility purposes, a person entering an assisted living facility typically fills out and signs (at the outset), a "Statement of Intent to Return" to his or her principal residence, even if it is objectively certain that no such return will ever occur. Did your Grandma do this? How long has she been in the assisted living facility? You should ask one of the administrators there. If the facility is not a "private pay only" facility, someone there will be up to speed on issues like this.

if your Grandma is seeking to at some point qualify for Medicaid eligibility, then selling her principal residence (i.e., converting it to cash, which is not an exempt asset) is probably not the best way to go. But the asset eligibility maximum for Medicaid is low enough that many people will never qualify, so Medicaid eligibility planning may be a non-factor for your Grandma in any event.

From my perspective as an estate planning attorney, the issue that is likely to be more relevant is the capital gain issue. Specifically, whether your Grandma should consider holding onto her home and passing it on to her heirs via postmortem gift, rather than selling it to you while she is still alive. This depends on what her current tax basis in the home is, what her age is, whether she has other assets upon which to live, and (if not) whether your parents and your aunt might be able and willing to loan her money.

If your Grandma has owned her home for an appreciable period of time, it has probably appreciated considerably in value, which would mean its current fair market value is considerably higher than her tax basis in the home, meaning she will be facing capital gains taxation as a result of its sale. She can exclude $250,000 of capital gain under IRC Section 121, but if her gain would be more than that, perhaps you can structure things so that the home passes by inheritance rather than sale. This would allow her to avoid the capital gains hit, and also allow her heirs to get a "stepped up basis" in the property under IRC Section 1014 (i.e., a basis equal to whatever its value is on the date she dies). If they get a stepped up basis, they could in turn sell it to you with zero capital gain. But that takes some tax planning.

Bottom line: You should consult with an estate planning attorney first and foremost. A lot of them have at least some working knowledge of Medicaid planning rules.
 
Yep, have been going through this with my 90 year old mother the last decade. Transferred all the assets of house sale and stocks with the exception of a couple thousand. Six years ago my brother & I started gifting the remainder to us and wives, also to two children we can trust.

With the stroke of a pen and no veto, congress can upset the medicaid wagon and the majority of US citizens will be f__ked if needed term care.
 
Figure out what price you want. State that to the aunt. If she wants more, either negotiate, or move on.
You aunt/mom can either sell the house to you, keep it, or sell it to someone else.
If you are trying to "lowball" then just be prepared for the aunt to balk. If she does balk at your offer, say ok, we will only pay X, and you will only accept Y. if you need any help getting the house ready to sell on open market, what can I do to help.
 
Yep, have been going through this with my 90 year old mother the last decade. Transferred all the assets of house sale and stocks with the exception of a couple thousand. Six years ago my brother & I started gifting the remainder to us and wives, also to two children we can trust.

With the stroke of a pen and no veto, congress can upset the medicaid wagon and the majority of US citizens will be f__ked if needed term care.
Step: Glad to hear you report that these transfers took place some time ago (six years?), since, as mrtailgate noted in his post, there IS in fact a five year (i.e., 60 month) lookback period with respect to transfers made by Medicaid applicants.

OTOH, the negative aspect of those lifetime transfers is that, if they were made for no consideration (i.e., as gifts), the donees (you and your brother?) did not get a "stepped up basis" in any of those assets. Rather, you got a "carryover basis," meaning the same basis your mother had in those assets when they were gifted to you.
 
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Step: Glad to hear you report that these transfers took place some time ago (six years?), since, as mrtailgate noted in his post, there IS in fact a five year (i.e., 60 month) lookback period with respect to transfers made by Medicaid applicants.

Thanks Bear…also happy birthday…. We transferred her house sale and stocks 10 years ago, and she still had another 80k which my brother was handling. Knowing her age at the time and look back window, although hear health was great, we decided to start gifting. That window may be 7 years shortly if not already.
 
At the end of life, all but the wealthiest Americans who go to nursing homes will face the Medicaid issue I described. If you are old and you have lotsa assets, AND you feel you might be headed to a nursing home for 10 years, start planning now to give stuff away. Your elder law specialist is the ticket.

We went through this when my father passed away. He had been in a state VA home in a Medicaid bed for four years, then my Mom passed away. She had put off putting the house in her name only, so money from the eventual sale went to three places, none of which involved our family: lawyers, Medicaid and the nursing home. We children were fine, as none of us needed any kind of inheritance. However, I felt bad for the VA home (especially them, because they took care of my father pretty well) and Medicaid, as the lawyers dragged things out for so long their fees ate up a large portion of the proceeds from selling the house.

No apologies to lawyers on this board; in my experience -- encompassing the deaths of both parents, two aunts and one uncle -- this is what lawyers do.
 
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1. Don't screw around with the assets of someone who is going into an assisted living facility if you are also going to be involving assistance programs such as Medicaid or Medicare for that person. They'll make you regret it.
2. Speak to a lawyer and probably an accountant and get ready to pay them or the government; the loop holes and exceptions will almost never apply to you and nothing is free.
3. End of life planning is poorly explained and never really gets national attention in this country. When most people realize they need to do something about it, it's too late and an individual's lifetime of earnings and acquisitions goes right into the pockets of the nursing homes. Most of the time, it's the middle class who have some assets at the end, but not enough during their lifetime to warrant the cost of asset hiding and movement of acquisitions by an army of lawyers and accountants, who get hit the hardest.
4. Good luck.
 
some thoughts...
  • get a real estate agent to appraise it. That can be the home price.
  • consider buying the home from her in payments instead of getting a mortgage loan. That may be better for her, financially. But you'd have to get an attorney and draw up a contract. It is not unusual but the guidelines have to be clear.
  • if you go the purchase route, you may be able to get a local realtor to handle the transaction but at a much lower commission. (anyone in the family or a family friend of a realtor?). This is a much more common transaction and the mortgage processor will see it as a standard (less risk) which should allow you to close on it quicker.

I see absolutely no reason to pay a real estate commission.
 
After reading through most of this I guess there should be some update to this. She is 92 and on no meds but her mind is mostly gone majority of the time. Ask her what street she grew up on you are fine. Ask her my name and she doesn't have a clue.

The financial advice is all appreciated but everything was pretty set from my grandfather before he died 10 years ago. The only thing that never was accounted for was the house from anything I have been privy to. She has a substantial asset base but that is all in a trust of some sort. I do believe that my mother and aunt screwed the pooch some not having this transferred when things started becoming noticeable, but at this point no turning back.

In reality, I guess other than everything that I have done with other real estate purchases ( home inspection and such) there isn't anything other than timing and not insulting my aunt that I have to worry about.
 
Advice;

1. DO NOT get a realtor involved AT ALL !!

2. You will need a lawyer - try to find one willing to close both sides.

3. Do your own comps, it's not hard.

4. If you must borrow....go 15 years, never 30. Go fixed, not variable.

5. Give your Aunt a fair market price...after you do your due diligence. (Research comps)
 
meanm: If your Grandma is 92, her life expectancy cannot be all that long. Meaning someone is gonna inherit that home fairly soon if it is not sold now, before her death. If she has owned it a long time and there is a lot of appreciation in it, capital gains planning militates in favor of waiting until after her death to do any sale. If she has substantial assets in a trust and that trust is either revocable by her (as most living trusts are) or irrevocable but established within the last five years, forget about Medicaid eligibility. She won't qualify.
 
My wife and I are looking to buy my grandmothers house that is now moved into an assisted living facility. Will be dealing with my mom and aunt to make this all happen. My parents are in very good financial position whereas my aunt is not in the same. My mom isn't concerned in the least with the monetary aspect of it where the vibes the aunt has put of is everything will have a price.

The wife and I are taking them out to dinner to get a game plan set but I was hoping for some input on any other questions we should be asking. The key points that we need to know is.
Who do you want to come up with price?(other than me)
When can we get to closing?
Time frame you can clean out house?

This is where we are looking for input after those two main points.

Have a contractor ready to do the remodeling we want and financially with the bank we are good to go. Another curve ball is the wife is due with number 2 in mid June.

Any and all help and advise would be greatly appreciated.

While you may have a sentimental attachment, my advice as someone who went through a similar situation is that the family should put the house on the open market. That will put the onus on them to engage an agent, who will put an educated value on the property. If a period has passed without a deal closing, then you can offer them the asking price, or perhaps even agree to a "family discount", as they will have a better picture of their options. During that time interested buyers might uncover some considerations/question which you failed to see, and you could even end up with some inspection reports, that might guide your thinking.

Things can get really sticky when it comes to family and money, especially if someone feels like they were ripped off/taken advantage of.
 
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