On this date in 1863, Lee rolled the dice and lost.

[We Are . . .]

Is it true more Americans died in 3 days of battle at GBurg than in the entire Vietnam War?....amazing.

The official record of the war list approximately 7,000 dead (from both sides) at Gettysburg. IIRC more than 50,000 Americans died in Nam. I think the confusion comes from the reported 50,000 or so casualties at Gettysburg, which includes killed, wounded, and missing.

 

[rohrmd9]

I'm no expert on 19th century infantry tactics, but I've walked the battlefield, and I cannot understand how anybody who did know anything about it could look at that ground and think that an infantry charge could possibly succeed.

Same. Been there many times and every time I look across that field from Seminary Ridge to Cemetery Hill I say to myself..."What the hell was he thinking?!?!"

 

[fairgambit]

The Army of the Potomac, but not the entire Army. Funny, before I started studying this or even having any interest in it b/c of family research, I really had no idea that the whole thing didn't take place in the Eastern US. Yikes.

But you know now which is the important thing.

 

[Tweedbear]

I have a cousin in law who is a retired General. He says the military is always prepared to fight the last war not this war.
By and large the tactics of the civil war were the same as Napoleon in his time.
Napoleon called artillery the queen of war.
Just learned this year in the civil war go the first time the infantry rifle outraged the artillery. Change in tactics needed but not there.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

....They lost the war? Then why is the north...Midwest and far west still subsidizing the economy of the south 150 years later? Why does the south still get more than 1 man 1 vote through the electoral college 150 years later. Perhaps we, in historical perspective that strips the romantic notion that winning wars is actually always winning all the time, should look again. Who actually won and why are they still winning? Lol

Happy 4th from Tellico Plains Tn..
.You All !

 

[Ian]

The rebs were on a roll and were after Harrisburg but stopped in Gettysburg for supplies and some rest. Hartisburg was the center of the Union and from there they could threaten NY, Philly, DC equally.

They wanted the railroad and the emotional impact seizing a major northern town would have on the union psyche. Scouts got to the banks of the west shore but got no further. Union had blown up the bridges there, too.

Lee had lost Jackson (his guts), didn't know where Stuart (his eyes) was, and didn't listen to Longstreet (his brains). And he failed to seize the moment on day 1 when the union was ill equipped to prevent the rebs from their objective.

Why Lee is so revered in the south is still puzzling! He lost the war at Gburg. Longstreet should have taken over.... the south never recovered.

 

[PSU87]

One of my great, great, great grandfathers died on day 2 at the wheat field/peach orchard. His name is on the PA memorial.
I would love to read more about this aspect of the battle. If anyone has any recommendations I would apoeciate it.

Ned, Gettysburg's Bloody Wheatfield by Jay Jorgensen. As the title implies, deals entirely with the Wheatfield area/aspect of the battle. Good read, but one of those highly "technical" books in that its not telling a story, its detailing a battle with unit designations etc. Lots of pictures and maps though so easy to understand and follow. Only about 140 pages with appendices......

 

[heb65]

Ned, Gettysburg's Bloody Wheatfield by Jay Jorgensen. As the title implies, deals entirely with the Wheatfield area/aspect of the battle. Good read, but one of those highly "technical" books in that its not telling a story, its detailing a battle with unit designations etc. Lots of pictures and maps though so easy to understand and follow. Only about 140 pages with appendices......

 

[heb65]

Some say the Cavalry Battle at Gettysburg was fully important as the repulse by the Federal infantry of Pickett's charge. J.E.B. Stuart and his 5,000 cavalry men tried to get behind the Union line when Pickett's men were charging, but Gen. David Gregg and his 3,000 cavalry men repulsed charge and counter charge and Stuart and his men did not succeed in getting behind the Union line, which could have been disastrous to the Union.
My G-Grand father's name is on the PA Memorial (3rd Penna Cavalry). Also Gen. David Gregg statue is on the Memorial. He fought under Gen. Gregg, but was captured on Nov 21, 1863 and was a prisoner in Andersonville until the war ended.
Survived the prison and died in 1916.

 

[buats]

Pickett's charge. The South never fully recovered, although the war would drag on for nearly 2 more years.

And on this date in 1963, I played Taps at the Gettysburg Cemetery Centennial celebration - 1963 was a good year to be a citizen in and around the town of Gettysburg.....

 

[fairgambit]

And on this date in 1963, I played Taps at the Gettysburg Cemetery Centennial celebration - 1963 was a good year to be a citizen in and around the town of Gettysburg.....

Very cool.

 

[BOSCO2]

What regiment was your g-g-g-grandfather in, Ned?

Bad stutter you have there. Get some therapy.

 

[BOSCO2]

It should not be forgotten that General George Custer played a major role in the battle on July 3rd when he led the Michigan cavalry and stopped Stuart getting in the rear of the Union army at the East Cavalry Field.

I've always thought this specific initiative taken by Custer is way overlooked...

Just finished "This Hallowed Ground" which covers the war from start to finish and Custer's name appears nowhere in that book. It really surprised me as I've read books on Custer and I knew he had a role at Gettysburg.

 

[sluggo72]

Just finished "This Hallowed Ground" which covers the war from start to finish and Custer's name appears nowhere in that book. It really surprised me as I've read books on Custer and I knew he had a role at Gettysburg.

From wiki
he East Cavalry Field fighting was an attempt by Maj. Gen.J.E.B. Stuart's Confederate cavalry to get into the Federal rear and exploit any success that Pickett's Charge may have generated. Union cavalry under Brig. Gens.David McM. Gregg and George Armstrong Custer repulsed the Confederate advances.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

From wiki
he East Cavalry Field fighting was an attempt by Maj. Gen.J.E.B. Stuart's Confederate cavalry to get into the Federal rear and exploit any success that Pickett's Charge may have generated. Union cavalry under Brig. Gens.David McM. Gregg and George Armstrong Custer repulsed the Confederate advances.

General Custer was rash and impetuous (as was seen 13 years later). But he had courage and aggressiveness oozing out of his pores, which is a damn fine thing to have in battle.

 

[We Are . . .]

Bad stutter you have there. Get some therapy.

Rye whiskey is my therapy.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Followed shortly by the Confederate surrender of Vicksburg on July 4, a very happy Independence Day for President Lincoln and the Union.

So glad you mentioned Vicksburg. Exceptionally important battle which led to finally kicking the Confederates out of Tennessee, the capture of Atlanta, the March to the Sea, Savannah, and curtains for the Rebels.

Jeff Davis, a terrible wartime leader, should have sued for peace then - his goose was cooked.

Vicksburg was made possible by the outstanding cooperation of the Triple Threat - Grant, Sherman, and Admiral David Dixon Porter. That was 'joint operations' 140 years before anybody in the Pentagon ever dreamed it up.

 

[royboy]

So glad you mentioned Vicksburg. Exceptionally important battle which led to finally kicking the Confederates out of Tennessee, the capture of Atlanta, the March to the Sea, Savannah, and curtains for the Rebels.

Jeff Davis, a terrible wartime leader, should have sued for peace then - his goose was cooked.

Vicksburg was made possible by the outstanding cooperation of the Triple Threat - Grant, Sherman, and Admiral David Dixon Porter. That was 'joint operations' 140 years before anybody in the Pentagon ever dreamed it up.

Yes. Lincoln recognized the importance of the fall of Vicksburg and control of the length of the Mississippi River, with this classic quote:

“The signs look better. The Father of Waters [the Mississippi River] again goes unvexed to the sea.”
―Abraham Lincoln
Source/Notes:
Letter to James C. Conkling, 26 August 1863

 

[TheGLOV]

The merits of Grant as a military commander are subject to debate, but he won the war and that speaks for itself.

Nope.

He was a bad ass who knew how to fight.

 

[TheGLOV]

Indeed, if Stuart's cavalry were able to attack the union from the rear, Pickett's charge may very well have a completely different history.

Didn't gen. George Armstrong Custer have something to do with that??

 

[LionJim]

Whether Jackson would have made a difference at Gettysburg is another hotly debated topic. I believe he would have, but I'm not sure it would have been enough to give Lee a victory.

Ewell, replacing Jackson, was very slow on Day 1. Would it have made a difference? Yes. Enough to change the results? I doubt it.

 

[LionJim]

Very cool.

Yes, just try to beat that.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Ewell, replacing Jackson, was very slow on Day 1. Would it have made a difference? Yes. Enough to change the results? I doubt it.

The guy who absolutely made the difference on Day 2 was Joshua Chamberlain on the Little Round Top. The fightingest college professor who ever drew a breath.

Now through the years there has been a lot of 'enhancements' to the combat performance of Chamberlain and the 20th Maine, but the truth is quite enough. The Rebs capture the high ground and they bring artillery to bear on the Union center, and it's all over. Colonel Chamberlain had different ideas.

Of his desire to serve in the War, he wrote to Maine's Governor Israel Washburn, Jr., "I fear, this war, so costly of blood and treasure, will not cease until men of the North are willing to leave good positions, and sacrifice the dearest personal interests, to rescue our country from desolation, and defend the national existence against treachery."

 

[Obliviax]

Lee sorely missed his best general, Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson, who died a month or so earlier.

he also didn't have his calvary who inexplicably disappeared before and during the first part of the battle.

 

[Obliviax]

Interestingly...Grant had nothing to little to do with Gettysburg. Some posts seem to imply differently.

Lee knew he was going to lose if the war kept on much longer. Gettysburg was the south's invasion of the north, hoping to get them to negotiate an end to the war. It was a calculated risk.

With all of that, the South came precariously close to routing the North at Little Round Top and during Pickett's charge.

The north, having every conceivable advantage, would have been in deep trouble had Lee won and continued on to split the Union.

Grant didn't do anything special, IMHO, other than be willing to do anything to win. Again, he had every advantage by the time he took control of the entire army. His greatest value is that he was ruthless. And I don't mean that negatively, he had the guts to press the war against guys that were, not long ago, friends and allies.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

he also didn't have his calvary who inexplicably disappeared before and during the first part of the battle.

JEB Stewart was fooling around on a wild goose chase in Carlisle. Attacked the town on the evening of July 1, but it's a hard ride back down to Gettysburg.

Really like your profile pic!

 

[Obliviax]

JEB Stewart was fooling around on a wild goose chase in Carlisle. Attacked the town on the evening of July 1, but it's a hard ride back down to Gettysburg.

Really like your profile pic!

Thanks...forgot where he was and was too lazy to look it up. Lee was all about speed; and that was in flanking maneuvers and using the Calvary to get into (and fight). Without them, he was really handicapped. Little Round Top and Cemetery ridge made flanking difficult, but it really almost worked at Little Round Top. We'd all be eating BBQ Brisket (oh wait, we are!).

 

[PSU87]

Ewell, replacing Jackson, was very slow on Day 1. Would it have made a difference? Yes. Enough to change the results? I doubt it.

Probably so, but I read an interesting take on that recently....
Jackson was lost because the Confederates were pushing an advantage in dying light, disorganized, after a day of great gains. In other words, precisely the situation they had at the end of the first day at Gettysburg.

 

[LionJim]

Excellent observation. Very well done.

 

[10 Years After]

With all of that, the South came precariously close to routing the North at Little Round Top and during Pickett's charge.

The 2nd day on the Confederate right was close. Not so much the 3rd day against Cemetery Ridge. That was sheer suicide and most of the Confederate troops involved knew it. That's why only a small portion ever crossed the Emmitsburg Road. Those that did though were incredibly brave. They marched into another Malvern Hill (another Lee mistake) and a Union Fredericksburg. You think by summer 1863 that the commanders would have adapted.

 

[lj4heisman1]

Is it true more Americans died in 3 days of battle at GBurg than in the entire Vietnam War?....amazing.

not true, not even close

7,000 gettysburg

about 60,000 us dead in vietnam

 

[royboy]

not true, not even close

7,000 gettysburg

about 60,000 us dead in vietnam

true dat, but compare that 60,000 in Vietnam to a total of 600,000+ dead in the US Civil War (often see the figure 620,000 and some recent estimates exceed 700,000). In round numbers, 2% of the US population (estimated at 31 Million) died as a result of the Civil War, and tragically many of them due to disease and wounds that worsened.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

true dat, but compare that 60,000 in Vietnam to a total of 600,000+ dead in the US Civil War (often see the figure 620,000 and some recent estimates exceed 700,000). In round numbers, 2% of the US population (estimated at 31 Million) died as a result of the Civil War, and tragically many of them due to disease and wounds that worsened.

That's no kidding there. Combat medicine in those times was just brutal.

Thank God for guys like Lister, Pasteur and Fleming among many others. Garfield and McKinley survive easily today. Lincoln and JFK never had a chance in any era.

 

[royboy]

That's no kidding there. Combat medicine in those times was just brutal.

Thank God for guys like Lister, Pasteur and Fleming among many others. Garfield and McKinley survive easily today. Lincoln and JFK never had a chance in any era.

Very interesting read on Garfield. His medical treatment was disgraceful.

 

[Nitt1300]

The Civil War is probably the exception to the old saw that “the winners write the history”. Southern writers managed to cast Lee and Jackson as heroes and Grant and Sherman as bloodthirsty brutes.

Lee and Jackson were traitors, not heroes.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Very interesting read on Garfield. His medical treatment was disgraceful.

Excellent! Goes directly to the reading list along with Dreamland by Sam Quinones. @demlion

 

[ram511]

The guy who absolutely made the difference on Day 2 was Joshua Chamberlain on the Little Round Top. The fightingest college professor who ever drew a breath.

Now through the years there has been a lot of 'enhancements' to the combat performance of Chamberlain and the 20th Maine, but the truth is quite enough. The Rebs capture the high ground and they bring artillery to bear on the Union center, and it's all over. Colonel Chamberlain had different ideas.

Of his desire to serve in the War, he wrote to Maine's Governor Israel Washburn, Jr., "I fear, this war, so costly of blood and treasure, will not cease until men of the North are willing to leave good positions, and sacrifice the dearest personal interests, to rescue our country from desolation, and defend the national existence against treachery."

I think General Warren made the difference on Day 2. He recognized Sickles major error and the entire flank was exposed. If Longstreet let Hood swing around the right, they would have taken Little Roundtop before Chamberlain even got there.

 

[fairgambit]

I think General Warren made the difference on Day 2. He recognized Sickles major error and the entire flank was exposed. If Longstreet let Hood swing around the right, they would have taken Little Roundtop before Chamberlain even got there.

I am heartened to learn so many here have an interest in, and knowledge about, the Civil War and specifically Gettysburg.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I think General Warren made the difference on Day 2. He recognized Sickles major error and the entire flank was exposed. If Longstreet let Hood swing around the right, they would have taken Little Roundtop before Chamberlain even got there.

See I like to think I have a good idea of the strategies and tactics at Gettysburg, but obviously I still have a lot of details to learn, so I looked it up. Warren absolutely recognized the Federals were in an extreme vulnerable position. Strong Vincent moved his troops into position without waiting around for orders from General Barnes.

This is the kind of martial spirit that has made American forces so effective - subordinate commanders recognize the situation, improvise as needed and take the initiative.

 

[fairgambit]

See I like to think I have a good idea of the strategies and tactics at Gettysburg, but obviously I still have a lot of details to learn, so I looked it up. Warren absolutely recognized the Federals were in an extreme vulnerable position. Strong Vincent moved his troops into position without waiting around for orders from General Barnes.

This is the kind of martial spirit that has made American forces so effective - subordinate commanders recognize the situation, improvise as needed and take the initiative.

Exactly right. I've read a lot books about WWII and you see it happen again and again.