Next year and beyond - 1st 4 weight classes (Long)

[dicemen99]

A restful day here on Easter Sunday, and thought I would post some thoughts on next year, since this one is done. I still have a couple of weeks until we round out the ETR field for next year which will then occupy a lot of my wrestling writing time and felt like staying busy today. Some of the kids below I am more knowledgeable about then others, so I may be off base on some and miss a couple of others. Some is just conjecture, some with some knowledge. As always, JMO, so take it for what it's worth. Would like to get some good discussion going from some of our more "inside" guys on the college guys and those of you around the state on the HS gusy. I'll take a crack at the rest of the weights as the week proceeds.

125
2016/17 Starter: Suriano, FR. Projecting true frosh is always a bit of a crapshoot and much will depend on the progress Suriano makes when he gets on campus this summer. But 125 is not a bad weight to have a 1st year guy at, and only NATO, Gilman and Micic seem to be beyond reach at this time. It has been opined – on other boards – that Nick will not have any neutral offense in college but evidently they don't watch tape. He certainly has been able to get to legs and finish on high quality opponents rather easily. Karam - one of the most sound defensive HS wrestlers you will ever see - he methodically picked apart, something Daton Fix nor anyone else has been able to do. He'll probably need more diversity to his neutral offense to win a NC, but what HS wrestler doesn't? And his head/hands defense is elite. His style may be decidedly more Zain-like than Nolf-like, he is a dominant rider on top and excellent on the bottom. Will transition well and progress in the room will dictate what he achieves as a true frosh. He is as ready as Nico was coming out, but that doesn't mean he will be in the finals. We will be more than fine here. The best part about this kid is his attitude. Have seen him going back to his days as a youth wrestler and what sets him apart is his will to dominate.


Backups: Yankovich-rsSO, Stossel-rsSO, Higgins-rsFR, Schnupp-FR, Friery-FR. Right now we do not have a backup capable of qualifying for NCAAs – which is the same for most teams. Yankovich is probably the most capable and would be much more ready than any of the other two freshman coming in this year in Schnupp and Friery. I've always liked Schnupp – the kid seems to know how to win. Was injured this year and didn't have quite the season he is capable of. Maybe some potential a couple years down the road.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Obviously, Lee is the plan in El Jefe's plan for world domination. And although it would be great to add him, I'm drifting into the camp of “I don't really care.” Another kid that I've seen since 6th grade and super talented. But I just don't see him ending up at PSU. I could be way off on this but Mark Hall's interview the other day just really hit home with me. Paraphrasing, but “Coach Slay and Coach Sanderson are my family now and will have a plan for me. And that plan will be in my best interests.” I just don't see a comment like this coming out of the Lee camp. And I'll reserve judgment on the 4 national championships until he comes up to 126/132 and continues to dominate the elite kids, although I understand the enthusiasm. If I had to bet, I would guess he ends up at tOSU and he will do fine. And PSU will still be more than fine. If no Lee, at least one more year of Suriano at 125, then Teasdale comes in, or perhaps Murin after a redshirt (no idea of his growth here). Or maybe Suriano spends more years than one might think at 125 and Schnupp develops.


133
Starter: Jered Cortez-rsSO. Cortez was a great add and will slide right in at 133. A hammer on top, I do have some concerns about him in neutral and that will be dictate how successful he is. AA capable, but not sure if he has the neutral offense at this point to have a higher ceiling than Conaway this coming year. Didn't see a ton of him this year, looking forward to seeing him in the offseason.


Backups: George Carpenter-rsSO, Mason Lindemuth-FR. Much like 125, our main backup here, Carpenter, is a capable D1 wrestler but would be much more at home battling for a starting position at a lower tier program. Tristan Law wrestled at 141 during his redshirt season, but if he could make 133 I think he would be a nice candidate here and would be a real nice insurance policy if he continues to develop.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Cortez for sure as a JR and then possibly Suriano – depending on how we recruit 125. We will get one or two name recruits like the ones mentioned above over the next two recruiting classes.


141
Starter: Jimmy Gulibon-rsSR. Jimmy should be better this year, but I'm wary on predicting it. Maybe he's hit a plateau mentally – who knows? He's not the greatest scrambler, which I think limits his upside at a lower weight class. He needs to get there through strength and technique – which has always been his go-tos even in high school. Stick him in a room with Gorilla tank for 6 months and see what happens, that is his path to success, JMO.


Backups: Kade Moss-rsJR, Gary Dinmore-rsFR, Tristan Law-rsFR, Dom Giannangelli-rsFR, Luke Gardner-FR. Serious talent here behind Jimmy, if both Moss and Dinmore continue to develop they could step right in and PSU may not miss a beat. It would not surprise me to see one or both seriously challenge Gulibon for the starting position. Law, as pointed out above, also has talent. Giannangelli is a talented project at least a couple years away and I like Gardner coming in. All of these guys could be D1 starters and two of them (Moss and Dinmore) are top 25 program guys right now.


2018 and beyond/recruiting: Dinmore/Moss for 2017/18, then it gets murky depending on 125/133. Nick Lee is committed for 2017 class and will likely redshirt and who knows what weight he will be in 2018/19. Either way, he is extremely talented and I've written before that he is somewhat under the radar with our recruiting efforts. IMO he is a top 10 recruit in 2017 and should be as heralded as Suriano/Marinelli type. Doubtful we are spending any more money in the next class on someone who projects at 141/149. Of the 2 kids I think would be candidates – Zack Trampe won't end up here and Verkleeren, who I've heard nothing about, I think would have been smoke already if he was coming. I think it's Nick Lee and we're good.


149
Starter: Zain Retherford-rsJR. Zain is going to win 2 more championships at 149, enough said. He may get beat once during the next two years, but hopefully that will not come in the NCAA finals. Barring injury of course. He takes over the mantle from Dieringer.


Backups: The guys mentioned above, primarily Moss, Dinmore and Gardner eventually. Manville, when he comes in, is a possibility here also – despite what LemonPie posts. I don't see Manville as ever being more than a 157 in college, but that is a more likely weight for him to land at considering Nolf may move up. But if he doesn't, I would fully expect Manville to head here to compete for a starting spot.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Zain in 2017/18 and then Nick Lee, Dinmore or Manville. Maybe, maybe a recruit from the 2018 class who projects here. Sasso would be a top candidate, but I doubt he comes here – although that could change. Shane Griffith would be another candidate, but no idea on that and remember we have Joe Lee coming in and no idea on what weight he would project to by 2019/20.

 

[NittanyLion84]

A restful day here on Easter Sunday, and thought I would post some thoughts on next year, since this one is done. I still have a couple of weeks until we round out the ETR field for next year which will then occupy a lot of my wrestling writing time and felt like staying busy today. Some of the kids below I am more knowledgeable about then others, so I may be off base on some and miss a couple of others. Some is just conjecture, some with some knowledge. As always, JMO, so take it for what it's worth. Would like to get some good discussion going from some of our more "inside" guys on the college guys and those of you around the state on the HS gusy. I'll take a crack at the rest of the weights as the week proceeds.

125
2016/17 Starter: Suriano, FR. Projecting true frosh is always a bit of a crapshoot and much will depend on the progress Suriano makes when he gets on campus this summer. But 125 is not a bad weight to have a 1st year guy at, and only NATO, Gilman and Micic seem to be beyond reach at this time. It has been opined – on other boards – that Nick will not have any neutral offense in college but evidently they don't watch tape. He certainly has been able to get to legs and finish on high quality opponents rather easily. Karam - one of the most sound defensive HS wrestlers you will ever see - he methodically picked apart, something Daton Fix nor anyone else has been able to do. He'll probably need more diversity to his neutral offense to win a NC, but what HS wrestler doesn't? And his head/hands defense is elite. His style may be decidedly more Zain-like than Nolf-like, he is a dominant rider on top and excellent on the bottom. Will transition well and progress in the room will dictate what he achieves as a true frosh. He is as ready as Nico was coming out, but that doesn't mean he will be in the finals. We will be more than fine here. The best part about this kid is his attitude. Have seen him going back to his days as a youth wrestler and what sets him apart is his will to dominate.


Backups: Yankovich-rsSO, Stossel-rsSO, Higgins-rsFR, Schnupp-FR, Friery-FR. Right now we do not have a backup capable of qualifying for NCAAs – which is the same for most teams. Yankovich is probably the most capable and would be much more ready than any of the other two freshman coming in this year in Schnupp and Friery. I've always liked Schnupp – the kid seems to know how to win. Was injured this year and didn't have quite the season he is capable of. Maybe some potential a couple years down the road.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Obviously, Lee is the plan in El Jefe's plan for world domination. And although it would be great to add him, I'm drifting into the camp of “I don't really care.” Another kid that I've seen since 6th grade and super talented. But I just don't see him ending up at PSU. I could be way off on this but Mark Hall's interview the other day just really hit home with me. Paraphrasing, but “Coach Slay and Coach Sanderson are my family now and will have a plan for me. And that plan will be in my best interests.” I just don't see a comment like this coming out of the Lee camp. And I'll reserve judgment on the 4 national championships until he comes up to 126/132 and continues to dominate the elite kids, although I understand the enthusiasm. If I had to bet, I would guess he ends up at tOSU and he will do fine. And PSU will still be more than fine. If no Lee, at least one more year of Suriano at 125, then Teasdale comes in, or perhaps Murin after a redshirt (no idea of his growth here). Or maybe Suriano spends more years than one might think at 125 and Schnupp develops.


133
Starter: Jered Cortez-rsSO. Cortez was a great add and will slide right in at 133. A hammer on top, I do have some concerns about him in neutral and that will be dictate how successful he is. AA capable, but not sure if he has the neutral offense at this point to have a higher ceiling than Conaway this coming year. Didn't see a ton of him this year, looking forward to seeing him in the offseason.


Backups: George Carpenter-rsSO, Mason Lindemuth-FR. Much like 125, our main backup here, Carpenter, is a capable D1 wrestler but would be much more at home battling for a starting position at a lower tier program. Tristan Law wrestled at 141 during his redshirt season, but if he could make 133 I think he would be a nice candidate here and would be a real nice insurance policy if he continues to develop.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Cortez for sure as a JR and then possibly Suriano – depending on how we recruit 125. We will get one or two name recruits like the ones mentioned above over the next two recruiting classes.


141
Starter: Jimmy Gulibon-rsSR. Jimmy should be better this year, but I'm wary on predicting it. Maybe he's hit a plateau mentally – who knows? He's not the greatest scrambler, which I think limits his upside at a lower weight class. He needs to get there through strength and technique – which has always been his go-tos even in high school. Stick him in a room with Gorilla tank for 6 months and see what happens, that is his path to success, JMO.


Backups: Kade Moss-rsJR, Gary Dinmore-rsFR, Tristan Law-rsFR, Dom Giannangelli-rsFR, Luke Gardner-FR. Serious talent here behind Jimmy, if both Moss and Dinmore continue to develop they could step right in and PSU may not miss a beat. It would not surprise me to see one or both seriously challenge Gulibon for the starting position. Law, as pointed out above, also has talent. Giannangelli is a talented project at least a couple years away and I like Gardner coming in. All of these guys could be D1 starters and two of them (Moss and Dinmore) are top 25 program guys right now.


2018 and beyond/recruiting: Dinmore/Moss for 2017/18, then it gets murky depending on 125/133. Nick Lee is committed for 2017 class and will likely redshirt and who knows what weight he will be in 2018/19. Either way, he is extremely talented and I've written before that he is somewhat under the radar with our recruiting efforts. IMO he is a top 10 recruit in 2017 and should be as heralded as Suriano/Marinelli type. Doubtful we are spending any more money in the next class on someone who projects at 141/149. Of the 2 kids I think would be candidates – Zack Trampe won't end up here and Verkleeren, who I've heard nothing about, I think would have been smoke already if he was coming. I think it's Nick Lee and we're good.


149
Starter: Zain Retherford-rsJR. Zain is going to win 2 more championships at 149, enough said. He may get beat once during the next two years, but hopefully that will not come in the NCAA finals. Barring injury of course. He takes over the mantle from Dieringer.


Backups: The guys mentioned above, primarily Moss, Dinmore and Gardner eventually. Manville, when he comes in, is a possibility here also – despite what LemonPie posts. I don't see Manville as ever being more than a 157 in college, but that is a more likely weight for him to land at considering Nolf may move up. But if he doesn't, I would fully expect Manville to head here to compete for a starting spot.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Zain in 2017/18 and then Nick Lee, Dinmore or Manville. Maybe, maybe a recruit from the 2018 class who projects here. Sasso would be a top candidate, but I doubt he comes here – although that could change. Shane Griffith would be another candidate, but no idea on that and remember we have Joe Lee coming in and no idea on what weight he would project to by 2019/20.

Excellent work Dice.

 

[Ja1339]

Interesting comments about Spencer Lee. I hope you're wrong, I would certainly love to see us keep the top talent in state. Do you think he'll decide tOSU is a better fit, or are you suggesting Cael will decide he's not a good fit?

Also, you think there's any chance Jimmy moves back to 33?

 

[dicemen99]

Interesting comments about Spencer Lee. I hope you're wrong, I would certainly love to see us keep the top talent in state. Do it think he'll decide tOSU is a better fit, or are you suggesting Cael will decide he's not a good fit?

Also, you think there's any chance Jimmy moves back to 33?

No, of course Cael would love to have him here. And maybe I'm wrong, just a feeling I get - mostly from comparing the "feel" of the recruits we've been adding lately. Certainly is not an informed opinion - pure conjecture. I'll be as happy as anyone if he commits here.

I don't think there is any chance Jimmy goes back to 133. 141 is his weight and I have no doubt he can be successful there. Whether he is or not is another question. Technique wise, he's good. I think he needs to dominate physically - which is what he is used to doing - and mentally. It can be done.

 

[Ja1339]

Thanks, I enjoyed reading your thread, very informative.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Thanks for some meat on a slow day. A couple things in response:

• First, I am definitely NOT in the "I don't really care" camp in regards to Spencer Lee. He is a hugely important recruit IMO, and Lee going to tOSU is probably the worst thing that could happen from PSU's perspective.
• I have no clue what Lee might decide (except for Spyker's insight ), and he is pretty clearly playing it close to the vest. But getting a vibe about Lee from something that Mark Hall said, well ...
• Until I see anything different, I expect Jimmy Gulibon's senior season to be pretty much like his junior season.

 

[21Guns]

Need Jimmy in the weight room this year, along with Nick Nevills and Mouse. I think those are the main three who could really benefit from an off season of strength gains.

 

[dicemen99]

Thanks for some meat on a slow day. A couple things in response:

• First, I am definitely NOT in the "I don't really care" camp in regards to Spencer Lee. He is a hugely important recruit IMO, and Lee going to tOSU is probably the worst thing that could happen from PSU's perspective.
• I have no clue what Lee might decide (except for Spyker's insight ), and he is pretty clearly playing it close to the vest. But getting a vibe about Lee from something that Mark Hall said, well ...
• Until I see anything different, I expect Jimmy Gulibon's senior season to be pretty much like his junior season.

1. No recruit is a "hugely important recruit" at this time. Despite what others might say our title this year came from an across the board incredible amount of talent in the room, along with a tremendous staff. The fact of the matter is that everything did NOT go right this year. Gulibon's struggles, Morelli was a split second away from scoring more points, Rasheed struggling with weight, Cutch and Nevills injuries. If everything went right, we could have put up 30 more points at least. The fact that at every weight, if things broke right this year there was a legitimate AA threat along with multiple title threats, gave this team all the room it needed for things not to go right and still win by 25 points. Yes, if Spencer goes elsewhere AND recruiting falls off, then we will dip. I don't see recruiting falling off. Spencer, like Mark Hall, would be great, but is not vital.
2. I agree that going to tOSU would hurt. They are accumulating talent at a rate nearly equal to us and will be our biggest threat over the next few years. I would also include OK State in that, but they have a couple more question marks in my mind. Iowa will always be a challenge, but they don't have as much talent and with the holes they have, EVERYTHING has to break right for them to win it and everything breaks right for anyone almost never.
3. I think you slightly misinterpreted my post about Hall's statement. It was more so the general feel I get about Lee's statements in public in comparison to Hall's and most of our latest recruits, but again, I could be way off base about that because who knows what is going on in private.

 

[grappler6]

In the interviews I have seen of Lee I get such an Iowa vibe. Not sure if I mean that as a compliment or insult though. I too wonder if he would have the right "feel" at a PSU or tOSU. Super talent and will have success wherever. I hope he goes to PSU as I feel it increases MN's chances at acquiring another PA light weight.

 

[El-Jefe]

Nice job, Dice. I agree that Ohio State is the biggest threat for Lee and that we'll be OK if we don't get him, but I won't go as far as to say he's going there or that I'm indifferent about it.

A couple other questions:
1. Who do you think can beat Zain in the next 2 years? Or is this a catch-all in case of the flu, a long bus ride, and average officials?
2. I agree that Trampe is not coming here, but where do you see him going?
3. I'm less sure about Sasso. Do you see him as unlikely due to lineup fit, or do you think he''s leaning somewhere already? To where?

 

[jschrantz]

Nice job, Dice. I agree that Ohio State is the biggest threat for Lee and that we'll be OK if we don't get him, but I won't go as far as to say he's going there or that I'm indifferent about it.

A couple other questions:
1. Who do you think can beat Zain in the next 2 years? Or is this a catch-all in case of the flu, a long bus ride, and average officials?
2. I agree that Trampe is not coming here, but where do you see him going?
3. I'm less sure about Sasso. Do you see him as unlikely due to lineup fit, or do you think he''s leaning somewhere already? To where?

1. BJ Clagon is a matchup nightmare ;-)

 

[clucas]

Really appreciate the analysis, dice! I do, however, believe Lee is a very important target for Penn State and here's why:

1. He will be at a weight of need for Penn State moving forward. In other words, there is no Nico Megaludis to come in and contend with for a few years while he "waits his turn." I understand Suriano will be there, but he seems a likely candidate to move up to 133 in the near future. Not sure Spencer waits his turn anywhere and OSU and Iowa will be in the same position of having openings at 125 within the next year. Winning this battle over the other heavyweights in the country for a kid that is a PA kid is what I would consider "hugely important." It has implications far beyond just Spencer coming to Penn State...it makes an impact for future recruits.

2. He represents the reason Cael came to Penn State...being able to dominate the the recruitment of homegrown PA talent and build a national power. Regardless of how well he continues to recruit nation-wide for the wrestlers that best fit the Penn State model, a an important thing will continue to be keeping the best PA high school wrestlers in state. Spencer Lee is the type of kid Penn State needs to get in my opinion. Will they be ok not getting him....sure. Put it this way, I'd rather Penn State have him than have to wrestle against him during his career, especially considering the other two likely players are B10 schools.

 

[dicemen99]

Nice job, Dice. I agree that Ohio State is the biggest threat for Lee and that we'll be OK if we don't get him, but I won't go as far as to say he's going there or that I'm indifferent about it.

A couple other questions:
1. Who do you think can beat Zain in the next 2 years? Or is this a catch-all in case of the flu, a long bus ride, and average officials?
2. I agree that Trampe is not coming here, but where do you see him going?
3. I'm less sure about Sasso. Do you see him as unlikely due to lineup fit, or do you think he''s leaning somewhere already? To where?

1. It's a catch-all. Just so hard to not take a loss, although I wouldn't put it past him. Maybe a Clagon-like match somewhere in there.
2. I know where he wants to go, but would rather not be public with that. He still has a ton of other options which he needs to explore - right now he is focused on one which would be a great choice, but there is more to picking a school than just them wanting you and you wanting them. Best I'll do is that right now I would see him leaning very local and to a very good wrestling school, but there is a long way to go.
3. I think it's very early for Sasso, I think he had a favorite growing up that wasn't PSU, but I also know that PSU presents some things that are hard to turn down and that's why I hedged with "could change." Probably will depend on how hard we pursue him if we get in the game and that will depend on lineup, money, etc.

 

[dicemen99]

Really appreciate the analysis, dice! I do, however, believe Lee is a very important target for Penn State and here's why:

1. He will be at a weight of need for Penn State moving forward. In other words, there is no Nico Megaludis to come in and contend with for a few years while he "waits his turn." I understand Suriano will be there, but he seems a likely candidate to move up to 133 in the near future. Not sure Spencer waits his turn anywhere and OSU and Iowa will be in the same position of having openings at 125 within the next year. Winning this battle over the other heavyweights in the country for a kid that is a PA kid is what I would consider "hugely important." It has implications far beyond just Spencer coming to Penn State...it makes an impact for future recruits.

2. He represents the reason Cael came to Penn State...being able to dominate the the recruitment of homegrown PA talent and build a national power. Regardless of how well he continues to recruit nation-wide for the wrestlers that best fit the Penn State model, a an important thing will continue to be keeping the best PA high school wrestlers in state. Spencer Lee is the type of kid Penn State needs to get in my opinion. Will they be ok not getting him....sure. Put it this way, I'd rather Penn State have him than have to wrestle against him during his career, especially considering the other two likely players are B10 schools.

Like I posted above, I don't think the Lee sweepstakes will have any effect on future recruiting. Just like the Marstellar recruitment it stands on it's own. Future recruiting will be at the top of the heap and we will continue to dominate PA for the foreseeable future. There may be a blip or two, but I don't see anything changing any time soon in regards to recruiting with the current staff.

 

[ejb25]

I don't agree with Lee going to tOSU would standalone. tOSU opening a pipeline to Wester PA would be a very bad thing. Distance wise, it's not that much farther than state college and tOSU is a good program and offers very similar things we do. And letting them get such a high profile recruit could open up doors we don't want.

 

[dicemen99]

I don't agree with Lee going to tOSU would standalone. tOSU opening a pipeline to Wester PA would be a very bad thing. Distance wise, it's not that much farther than state college and tOSU is a good program and offers very similar things we do. And letting them get such a high profile recruit could open up doors we don't want.

I disagree. tOSU is already a viable option for Western PA kids whether they get Lee or not. Like it or not, they are a formidable presence already and likely to be a thorn in our side for at least the next 5 years. Things like PSU high instate tuition, PSU mediocre financial aid, and tOSU academic scholly program for the general student body have a much bigger impact on a possible "pipeline" than a possible Spencer Lee signing. Superstars are a one off - each case to it's own. It's not football recruiting.

The doors are already open, but we will be fine anyway.

 

[dunkej01]

In the interviews I have seen of Lee I get such an Iowa vibe. Not sure if I mean that as a compliment or insult though. I too wonder if he would have the right "feel" at a PSU or tOSU. Super talent and will have success wherever. I hope he goes to PSU as I feel it increases MN's chances at acquiring another PA light weight.

You think he has worked on his face mush? Seriously, though he will be uber successful where ever he goes. Personally as much as I want him to be in blue and white, it would be better for wrestling if he went to non-power 5 school.

 

[El-Jefe]

You think he has worked on his face mush? Seriously, though he will be uber successful where ever he goes. Personally as much as I want him to be in blue and white, it would be better for wrestling if he went to non-power 5 school.

Tim Flynn on line 1...

 

[jack66]

" Paraphrasing, but “Coach Slay and Coach Sanderson are my family now and will have a plan for me. And that plan will be in my best interests.” I just don't see a comment like this coming out of the Lee camp."

Thanks for the write-up. I have a question though about your statement above: Were there comments like this coming from the Hall camp before he committed?

 

[Dogwelder]

... tOSU is already a viable option for Western PA kids ... Things like PSU high instate tuition, PSU mediocre financial aid, and tOSU academic scholly program for the general student body ...

And, to be a smartass about it, tOSU has the "Sport Industry" major ... ;-)

 

[dicemen99]

" Paraphrasing, but “Coach Slay and Coach Sanderson are my family now and will have a plan for me. And that plan will be in my best interests.” I just don't see a comment like this coming out of the Lee camp."

Thanks for the write-up. I have a question though about your statement above: Were there comments like this coming from the Hall camp before he committed?

No. You guys are way too anal about Spencer. My point is the thought process. Admittedly, this is only conjecture and based off a very limited glimpse of him in public. JMO. If you are of the opinion that Lee is the perfect fit with this team, coaching staff and his future teammates then have at it. He just may well be, my guess is that they will decide what option fits best into their plans and head there. As they should. And again, my main point is that although it would be great to have him, I'll be just as happy if we don't land him and we continue to pull in the type of kids that we have been pulling in for the past 5 years. We will still be winning a bunch of NCs with or without him.

 

[ggcpsu]

No inside info but I'd be very shocked if Spencer Lee did not choose PSU.

 

[jschrantz]

No. You guys are way too anal about Spencer. My point is the thought process. Admittedly, this is only conjecture and based off a very limited glimpse of him in public. JMO. If you are of the opinion that Lee is the perfect fit with this team, coaching staff and his future teammates then have at it. He just may well be, my guess is that they will decide what option fits best into their plans and head there. As they should. And again, my main point is that although it would be great to have him, I'll be just as happy if we don't land him and we continue to pull in the type of kids that we have been pulling in for the past 5 years. We will still be winning a bunch of NCs with or without him.

Agreed,Also there is no bigger Psu high school fan than Gavin.

 

[TangSoo]

Just a few years removed from not adding Marstellar (and Haines) to the team, it's hard to see a "sky is falling" scenario if we don't get Spencer. Having said that, and of course hindsight is 20/20, Spencer seems like more of a sure thing to me. Other than a shoulder injury, it's hard to find any red flags with this kid. He seems like a really good, focused kid. I think he is a strong willed kid who knows what he wants and has a plan to get there. I just don't by any means see that as incompatible with Cael.

 

[dicemen99]

Don't take this the wrong way for those of you that posted, but there is a long post above with 4 weights discussed, 2 new starters for next year both of which give cause for enthusiasm, an intriguing situation at 141, and great situation at 149 with a couple of top 10 recruit possibilities in a year or two - but the majority of responses deal with a JMO on Spencer Lee - a kid who has yet to compete at a college weight and who faces great odds to score as many points at Nationals over his career as one of the guys (Zain) and I can certainly pick 2 together who will outscore him.

Which really is my point on the whole thing...

We certainly LOVE our 4 timers here. All of them - I'm sure there are plenty of PA guys who would scrap the whole lineup still for a chance to see Lee, Marstellar and Haines compete in the B&W.

 

[21Guns]

Don't take this the wrong way for those of you that posted, but there is a long post above with 4 weights discussed, 2 new starters for next year both of which give cause for enthusiasm, an intriguing situation at 141, and great situation at 149 with a couple of top 10 recruit possibilities in a year or two - but the majority of responses deal with a JMO on Spencer Lee - a kid who has yet to compete at a college weight and who faces great odds to score as many points at Nationals over his career as one of the guys (Zain) and I can certainly pick 2 together who will outscore him.

Which really is my point on the whole thing...

We certainly LOVE our 4 timers here. All of them - I'm sure there are plenty of PA guys who would scrap the whole lineup still for a chance to see Lee, Marstellar and Haines compete in the B&W.

I still say it's not out of the question for Jimmy to go down to 133.

 

[dicemen99]

I still say it's not out of the question for Jimmy to go down to 133.

I don't see the point. He's competing at 141 and while I agree he needs to get more physically dominant, there are other aspects to it to. No guarantees that he goes to 133 and does any better.

Lock him in a room with the Tank, I'll say again.

 

[dms87]

I still say it's not out of the question for Jimmy to go down to 133.

I will bite. Why? Who goes 141 in his place then? It does not seem to be what is best for the team, IMO.

Do you think Cael, who I have no doubt has a loyalty to seniors that have worked hard in his program, would consider what is best for Jimmy over what is best for the team? I think it has to make perfect sense for both (Jimmy and the team) to make that change. Jimmy wrestled the top guys this year tough but his window for success, meaning he has to do more with his scoring opportunities than others because he creates less opportunities, is not going to change. He will not suddenly be Nolf like in his shot attempts and turns attempts per match at 133. At age 22 (or whatever he will be) he is who he is, bad, good or great.

Jimmy is not a bonus point guy. He rarely turns people off his ride but he will ride them to enough to get his riding time point a decent amount. He is poised to win his matches by 3-4 points. At 133 is he going to be better from the bottom? Will his tank be okay after adding some bulk for a year? Is the assumption that he will be stronger at 133? Is he better than a top 5 guy at 133?

I have no doubt this year left a bad taste in his mouth. Nickal, Nolf, Nevis, Mouse, Jimmy, and Rasheed are all already thinking about next year and their challenges, personally and as a team. I suspect no one is more clear than themselves about them not meeting their goals. Most of these guys lost more this year than they ever have and it has to be humbling.

I think Jimmy at 141 makes the most sense. 21Guns-just my 2 cents though.

 

[RandyL]

Whats wrong with you guys...when did your aspirations fall so low?
Has even El-Jefe forgotten what constitutes world domination?

We dont want to be ok or fine.
We dont to be a contender every year for the NC.
We dont even want to simply win the NC every year.

The reason Lee is so important is that what we want is for the race to be between Penn State winning the NC - and Penn State winning the NC while breaking every conceivable record in doing so.

 

[21Guns]

I don't see the point. He's competing at 141 and while I agree he needs to get more physically dominant, there are other aspects to it to. No guarantees that he goes to 133 and does any better.

Lock him in a room with the Tank, I'll say again.

No question the Gorilla Hulk will make him stronger next year, agreed.

 

[21Guns]

I still say it's not out of the question for Jimmy to go down to 133.

I will bite. Why? Who goes 141 in his place then? It does not seem to be what is best for the team, IMO.

Do you think Cael, who I have no doubt has a loyalty to seniors that have worked hard in his program, would consider what is best for Jimmy over what is best for the team? I think it has to make perfect sense for both (Jimmy and the team) to make that change. Jimmy wrestled the top guys this year tough but his window for success, meaning he has to do more with his scoring opportunities than others because he creates less opportunities, is not going to change. He will not suddenly be Nolf like in his shot attempts and turns attempts per match at 133. At age 22 (or whatever he will be) he is who he is, bad, good or great.

Jimmy is not a bonus point guy. He rarely turns people off his ride but he will ride them to enough to get his riding time point a decent amount. He is poised to win his matches by 3-4 points. At 133 is he going to be better from the bottom? Will his tank be okay after adding some bulk for a year? Is the assumption that he will be stronger at 133? Is he better than a top 5 guy at 133?

I have no doubt this year left a bad taste in his mouth. Nickal, Nolf, Nevis, Mouse, Jimmy, and Rasheed are all already thinking about next year and their challenges, personally and as a team. I suspect no one is more clear than themselves about them not meeting their goals. Most of these guys lost more this year than they ever have and it has to be humbling.

I think Jimmy at 141 makes the most sense. 21Guns-just my 2 cents though.

I'm just throwing it out there. I think Jimmy has his best year, either way.

 

[NittanyLion84]

I'm just throwing it out there. I think Jimmy has his best year, either way.

I hope you are right, that would really help for next year.

 

[nitlion6]

Six years ago as the Lions were getting ready for the Scuffle, with a really strong Cornell waiting, the feeling was you can't really expect the freshman to dominate and Cornell is so good this year.

Six years ago as the Lions were getting ready for Big10s the feeling on Penn State discussion boards was well maybe if we wrestle really well and this happens and that happens maybe there might be an outside shot, but you know it is all about getting the qualifiers through.

Six years ago even after the Scuffle and Big10 championships, there was that ever present pessimistic feeling about the chances Penn State could possibly really compete for a championship.

Last year, I read more than one or two comments about gee I wish Hall would make a choice, I am tired of waiting to hear, I don't care where he goes.

You know when you are riding a roller coaster and every muscle is clinched tight as you try to maintain some sort of control and you finally reach that point where you can not clinch anymore and you reluctantly relax that clinch and all of a sudden you get to enjoy the thrill of the ride.

Unclinch. Everything will be OK.

Whether or not Spencer chooses Penn State, Ohio State, Iowa or North Carolina it will be OK. The other thing, the kid is this year's most sought after stud and it is still March. Nobody can even offer him anything. This choice impacts the rest of the kid's life and everybody on here is upset because he hasn't told us he loves us yet. He doesn't even know financially what the choices are.

Anybody know who the last really big get that this staff wanted and reasonably expected to get but whiffed on was?

I really want Spencer wearing blue and white, I expect Spencer will be wearing blue and white and if he doesn't I will wish him well and things will be OK.

 

[El-Jefe]

I still say it's not out of the question for Jimmy to go down to 133.

Be prepared for a full season of threads contending that he's cutting too much weight, etc. Like we had last year.

 

[El-Jefe]

Whats wrong with you guys...when did your aspirations fall so low?
Has even El-Jefe forgotten what constitutes world domination?

We dont want to be ok or fine.
We dont to be a contender every year for the NC.
We dont even want to simply win the NC every year.

The reason Lee is so important is that what we want is for the race to be between Penn State winning the NC - and Penn State winning the NC while breaking every conceivable record in doing so.

I want Lee as much as any fan.

That said, I'm not sweating over one teenager's decisions. Cael will get his share + Pitt's share. If he lands (hypothetically) Teasdale, Busiello, Sasso, Beard, Hoffman, and Snacks to go along with Suriano, Hall, The Anvil, and the Lee brothers... that's still dominant.

I'm sure we'd all prefer Carl gets his share + Ryan's share, but we'll live.

(Damn phone auto-correct ... Carl.)

 

[lionlover]

I want Lee as much as any fan.

That said, I'm not sweating over one teenager's decisions. Cael will get his share + Pitt's share. If he lands (hypothetically) Teasdale, Busiello, Sasso, Beard, Hoffman, and Snacks to go along with Suriano, Hall, The Anvil, and the Lee brothers... that's still dominant.

I'm sure we'd all prefer Carl gets his share + Ryan's share, but we'll live.

Thanks for...sharing!

 

[Real-Lion]

A restful day here on Easter Sunday, and thought I would post some thoughts on next year, since this one is done. I still have a couple of weeks until we round out the ETR field for next year which will then occupy a lot of my wrestling writing time and felt like staying busy today. Some of the kids below I am more knowledgeable about then others, so I may be off base on some and miss a couple of others. Some is just conjecture, some with some knowledge. As always, JMO, so take it for what it's worth. Would like to get some good discussion going from some of our more "inside" guys on the college guys and those of you around the state on the HS gusy. I'll take a crack at the rest of the weights as the week proceeds.

125
2016/17 Starter: Suriano, FR. Projecting true frosh is always a bit of a crapshoot and much will depend on the progress Suriano makes when he gets on campus this summer. But 125 is not a bad weight to have a 1st year guy at, and only NATO, Gilman and Micic seem to be beyond reach at this time. It has been opined – on other boards – that Nick will not have any neutral offense in college but evidently they don't watch tape. He certainly has been able to get to legs and finish on high quality opponents rather easily. Karam - one of the most sound defensive HS wrestlers you will ever see - he methodically picked apart, something Daton Fix nor anyone else has been able to do. He'll probably need more diversity to his neutral offense to win a NC, but what HS wrestler doesn't? And his head/hands defense is elite. His style may be decidedly more Zain-like than Nolf-like, he is a dominant rider on top and excellent on the bottom. Will transition well and progress in the room will dictate what he achieves as a true frosh. He is as ready as Nico was coming out, but that doesn't mean he will be in the finals. We will be more than fine here. The best part about this kid is his attitude. Have seen him going back to his days as a youth wrestler and what sets him apart is his will to dominate.


Backups: Yankovich-rsSO, Stossel-rsSO, Higgins-rsFR, Schnupp-FR, Friery-FR. Right now we do not have a backup capable of qualifying for NCAAs – which is the same for most teams. Yankovich is probably the most capable and would be much more ready than any of the other two freshman coming in this year in Schnupp and Friery. I've always liked Schnupp – the kid seems to know how to win. Was injured this year and didn't have quite the season he is capable of. Maybe some potential a couple years down the road.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Obviously, Lee is the plan in El Jefe's plan for world domination. And although it would be great to add him, I'm drifting into the camp of “I don't really care.” Another kid that I've seen since 6th grade and super talented. But I just don't see him ending up at PSU. I could be way off on this but Mark Hall's interview the other day just really hit home with me. Paraphrasing, but “Coach Slay and Coach Sanderson are my family now and will have a plan for me. And that plan will be in my best interests.” I just don't see a comment like this coming out of the Lee camp. And I'll reserve judgment on the 4 national championships until he comes up to 126/132 and continues to dominate the elite kids, although I understand the enthusiasm. If I had to bet, I would guess he ends up at tOSU and he will do fine. And PSU will still be more than fine. If no Lee, at least one more year of Suriano at 125, then Teasdale comes in, or perhaps Murin after a redshirt (no idea of his growth here). Or maybe Suriano spends more years than one might think at 125 and Schnupp develops.


133
Starter: Jered Cortez-rsSO. Cortez was a great add and will slide right in at 133. A hammer on top, I do have some concerns about him in neutral and that will be dictate how successful he is. AA capable, but not sure if he has the neutral offense at this point to have a higher ceiling than Conaway this coming year. Didn't see a ton of him this year, looking forward to seeing him in the offseason.


Backups: George Carpenter-rsSO, Mason Lindemuth-FR. Much like 125, our main backup here, Carpenter, is a capable D1 wrestler but would be much more at home battling for a starting position at a lower tier program. Tristan Law wrestled at 141 during his redshirt season, but if he could make 133 I think he would be a nice candidate here and would be a real nice insurance policy if he continues to develop.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Cortez for sure as a JR and then possibly Suriano – depending on how we recruit 125. We will get one or two name recruits like the ones mentioned above over the next two recruiting classes.


141
Starter: Jimmy Gulibon-rsSR. Jimmy should be better this year, but I'm wary on predicting it. Maybe he's hit a plateau mentally – who knows? He's not the greatest scrambler, which I think limits his upside at a lower weight class. He needs to get there through strength and technique – which has always been his go-tos even in high school. Stick him in a room with Gorilla tank for 6 months and see what happens, that is his path to success, JMO.


Backups: Kade Moss-rsJR, Gary Dinmore-rsFR, Tristan Law-rsFR, Dom Giannangelli-rsFR, Luke Gardner-FR. Serious talent here behind Jimmy, if both Moss and Dinmore continue to develop they could step right in and PSU may not miss a beat. It would not surprise me to see one or both seriously challenge Gulibon for the starting position. Law, as pointed out above, also has talent. Giannangelli is a talented project at least a couple years away and I like Gardner coming in. All of these guys could be D1 starters and two of them (Moss and Dinmore) are top 25 program guys right now.


2018 and beyond/recruiting: Dinmore/Moss for 2017/18, then it gets murky depending on 125/133. Nick Lee is committed for 2017 class and will likely redshirt and who knows what weight he will be in 2018/19. Either way, he is extremely talented and I've written before that he is somewhat under the radar with our recruiting efforts. IMO he is a top 10 recruit in 2017 and should be as heralded as Suriano/Marinelli type. Doubtful we are spending any more money in the next class on someone who projects at 141/149. Of the 2 kids I think would be candidates – Zack Trampe won't end up here and Verkleeren, who I've heard nothing about, I think would have been smoke already if he was coming. I think it's Nick Lee and we're good.


149
Starter: Zain Retherford-rsJR. Zain is going to win 2 more championships at 149, enough said. He may get beat once during the next two years, but hopefully that will not come in the NCAA finals. Barring injury of course. He takes over the mantle from Dieringer.


Backups: The guys mentioned above, primarily Moss, Dinmore and Gardner eventually. Manville, when he comes in, is a possibility here also – despite what LemonPie posts. I don't see Manville as ever being more than a 157 in college, but that is a more likely weight for him to land at considering Nolf may move up. But if he doesn't, I would fully expect Manville to head here to compete for a starting spot.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Zain in 2017/18 and then Nick Lee, Dinmore or Manville. Maybe, maybe a recruit from the 2018 class who projects here. Sasso would be a top candidate, but I doubt he comes here – although that could change. Shane Griffith would be another candidate, but no idea on that and remember we have Joe Lee coming in and no idea on what weight he would project to by 2019/20.

Lee will be at PSU...He wants in that room to be a time National Champ and well as win 4 team titles. In addition he knows how well prepared he will be for an Oly gold training at NLWC with Gomez, Nico, and many others.... He is a smart kid and so is his Dad....Who would not want to contribute to this team ang get a lot better themselves. Plus NOONE does it like Cael...The man is just unreal on and off the mat !!!!

 

[jack66]

No. You guys are way too anal about Spencer. My point is the thought process. Admittedly, this is only conjecture and based off a very limited glimpse of him in public. JMO. If you are of the opinion that Lee is the perfect fit with this team, coaching staff and his future teammates then have at it. He just may well be, my guess is that they will decide what option fits best into their plans and head there. As they should. And again, my main point is that although it would be great to have him, I'll be just as happy if we don't land him and we continue to pull in the type of kids that we have been pulling in for the past 5 years. We will still be winning a bunch of NCs with or without him.

To be clear, I have no horse in the race for Lee. Probably haven't made a single comment on his recruitment before now.

But since you brought up the issue, I thought it odd that a comment recently made by Hall would in anyway sway your opinion on Lee. Like you I feel we will survive with or without Lee. I was just looking for clarity.

Like I said before, I appreciate the write-up, and pretty much agree with everything you wrote.

 

[21Guns]

I do find the idea of Jason moving up to 65 and Cenzo at 57, very very interesting. For instance, If Jason goes up to 65, does Imar also go up? Two schools of thought on Imar, those that think he pulled all year and can't do it anymore, and those that think he's pulling even more for trials, so he'll be staying there.

The thing that interests me though, is if Jason moves up to 65, does Ryan still pull White's shirt? How would that affect Marinelli's shirt? I have to believe if Jason and/or Imar go up to 65, then Brands holds form and shirt's Marinelli. Also, what happens with VT and McFadden? What do the pokes do?

 

[El-Jefe]

I do find the idea of Jason moving up to 65 and Cenzo at 57, very very interesting. For instance, If Jason goes up to 65, does Imar also go up? Two schools of thought on Imar, those that think he pulled all year and can't do it anymore, and those that think he's pulling even more for trials, so he'll be staying there.

The thing that interests me though, is if Jason moves up to 65, does Ryan still pull White's shirt? How would that affect Marinelli's shirt? I have to believe if Jason and/or Imar go up to 65, then Brands holds form and shirt's Marinelli. Also, what happens with VT and McFadden? What do the pokes do?

Same as always, whoever cuts most gets the start.