My amazing BB naivete
- Thread starter Burb
- Start date
Not sure, but I was worried you were going to say that you thought the Big Ten/ACC Challenge was just as important as The NCAA Tournament
Check out Utah. 4 years ago the Utes hired a new coach and won 6 games.
This year the Utes are 26- 8 , 13 -5 in conference and in the Sweet 16. How many 3 and 4 **** players do they have ?
4 years ago we hired a new coach. His 4th season , we won 4 conference games. The team was terrible.
This year the Utes are 26- 8 , 13 -5 in conference and in the Sweet 16. How many 3 and 4 **** players do they have ?
4 years ago we hired a new coach. His 4th season , we won 4 conference games. The team was terrible.
According to 247's Composite Ratings, our recruiting class consisted of two four stars and one three star. By my count, that's certainly the best class we've had since online rankings came into existence in the early 2000s. Under the online rankings history, we've only ever had 1 four star recruit in that ~15 year period (Jeff Brooks) and this year alone we've signed two.
I don't follow baseball, but it might be*
We've never been strong in baseball. However, given the weather in State College during the school year, this is hardly surprising.
This post was edited on 3/23 6:58 PM by RestonChester
We've never been strong in baseball. However, given the weather in State College during the school year, this is hardly surprising.
This post was edited on 3/23 6:58 PM by RestonChester
Re: I don't follow baseball, but it might be*
I'm pretty sure we're talking about basketball, although the baseball team's recruiting class this past year was one of the best we've had in quite some time - Wine was never much of a recruiter, but Cooper's improved in that regard. The baseball team beat a pretty strong Pitt team last week and split a four-game series with #21 Indiana this past weekend.
PSU has changed coaches several times
Dunn, DeChellis, Chambers. Do you really think that changing coaches again is the answer? I don't know Chambers' salary but I'm guessing it's in the $1 million range. Top coaches like Izzo earn $3.5 million but those guys wouldn't come to PSU for that same salary. I don't think it's as simple as spending more money.
Some people blame the facilities but the BJC is a very nice venue as are the practice facilities. I don't know about Utah but teams like Xavier & Wichita often make the NCAA tournament and their arenas are 1/3 smaller than the BJC.
I don't have the answers but I think we need to give Chambers 2 more years. The 3 freshmen probably won't be dominant as freshmen, that's why I say 2 years.
Thorpe & Garner are solid guards but neither is a true point guard. We have a highly ranked center and SF coming in the fall but we still need a PF. Losing Hampton really hurt. A JUCO might help. We'll see how it goes.
Dunn, DeChellis, Chambers. Do you really think that changing coaches again is the answer? I don't know Chambers' salary but I'm guessing it's in the $1 million range. Top coaches like Izzo earn $3.5 million but those guys wouldn't come to PSU for that same salary. I don't think it's as simple as spending more money.
Some people blame the facilities but the BJC is a very nice venue as are the practice facilities. I don't know about Utah but teams like Xavier & Wichita often make the NCAA tournament and their arenas are 1/3 smaller than the BJC.
I don't have the answers but I think we need to give Chambers 2 more years. The 3 freshmen probably won't be dominant as freshmen, that's why I say 2 years.
Thorpe & Garner are solid guards but neither is a true point guard. We have a highly ranked center and SF coming in the fall but we still need a PF. Losing Hampton really hurt. A JUCO might help. We'll see how it goes.
Re: PSU has changed coaches several times
I'll repeat a point I made in another thread this morning: Northern Iowa was in this year's tournament, and as a 5-seed, yet Penn State can't field a team good enough to get in. I guess Northern Iowa has more to offer.
Re: PSU has changed coaches several times
Well, since 2002 (when Greg McDermott arrived as head coach; Ben Jacobson is their coach now) Northern Iowa's record is 260-164, with six NCAA tournament appearances (a sweet 16 in 2010), three appearances in the NIT or CIT and four conference championships. Since 2003 (when Ed DeChellis arrived) Penn State's record is 167-212, with one NCAA tournament appearance, three appearances in the NIT or CBI, and no conference championships (one appearance in the conference championship game in 2011). I don't know if Northern Iowa has more to offer than Penn State, but they've certainly been the more successful program by a pretty significant margin over the last 10+ years.
Well, since 2002 (when Greg McDermott arrived as head coach; Ben Jacobson is their coach now) Northern Iowa's record is 260-164, with six NCAA tournament appearances (a sweet 16 in 2010), three appearances in the NIT or CIT and four conference championships. Since 2003 (when Ed DeChellis arrived) Penn State's record is 167-212, with one NCAA tournament appearance, three appearances in the NIT or CBI, and no conference championships (one appearance in the conference championship game in 2011). I don't know if Northern Iowa has more to offer than Penn State, but they've certainly been the more successful program by a pretty significant margin over the last 10+ years.
Re: I don't think that's fair
The situations are not symmetric. The MVC sometimes cracks the top 6 conferences in a given year, but the B1G is top 5 basically every year. The hardest job in all of sports is taking a subpar power 5 basketball program and moving up to a perennial contender. Now, I'm not excusing getting to the dance every 10 years, which is ridiculous. But it is a very, very tough job to turn around a program like Penn State. I'm not a huge fan of the B1G but I also don't think going back to the A10 would help us. We'd make the tournament if we won the A10 tournament, and that A10 tourney would be our whole season -- every year. At least in the B1G, if we ever do turn it around, it will be something meaningful.
Re: I don't think that's fair
UNI's Jacobson is a very good coach. That said, do you think UNI would have made the Dance if they played in the B1G this year?
Kids are followers. They follow other blue chippers to Duke, Kentucky, Michigan State, Arizona, etc. Penn State MBB needs to get lucky and find that one 4/5-star recruit who wants to be forever remembered for breaking the glass ceiling.
I don't know whether Chambers is the answer, I remain hopeful, but here's what he's dealing with.
One consensus MBB All-American, and that was 60 years ago.Negligible history of PSU MBB players in the NBA.Negligible history of consistent success. Rarely follow a good season with another good season.The absence of any kind of "home" recruiting territory. Pennsylvania prep basketball players don't grow up dreaming of playing for Penn State, as many PA prep football players do. Philly is the only part of Pennsylvania that consistently produces Div-I basketball talent, and then Chambers must deal with the Big 5 and with the low academic quality of many Public League schools. Central PA fandom is all about football and wrestling. The area just doesn't care about basketball. Penn State fans are spoiled front-runners who support winners (except for holding fast during Football's "Dark Years").Penn State is a football school. It's hard to imagine that basketball will ever be esteemed by PSU students and alums as much as football, even if MBB does start winning big.An administration that never cared much about basketball, at least until the current one. John Bach was a highly regarded coach when Penn State hired him. He went .500 in 10 years at PSU and then had a long, venerated career coaching in the NBA. Dick Harter was a "big name" coach when Penn State hired him. After five years and one NIT appearance, he couldn't wait to get out of town and Jim Tarman was only too happy to hold the door open for him. Harter, too, went on to a long and esteemed career coaching in the NBA. A reluctance/refusal to get down and dirty in recruiting. There aren't many schools that can recruit at the 4- and 5-star level without bending the rules and bringing in academically questionable recruits, and those few are long-established MBB powers. A reputation among the coaching community that Penn State is not a "place where you can win."
Chambers' hurdle is Penn State's near complete lack of tradition and cachet in basketball. It's all about recruiting. We have to hope to get lucky with 3-star recruits who well exceed expectations plus land one or two NBA-quality breakthrough recruits, then add coaching that preaches defense and team play.
Ask yourself why Indiana football, Alabama basketball and Duke football (until Cutcliffe) struggle. It's a very similar dynamic.
Our MBB situation is by no means hopeless, but it does require patience and perseverance. I've always felt that if we could just get the boulder pushed over the crest of the mountain, i.e., three consecutive NCAA Tournament teams, it would roll downhill for a long time.
This post was edited on 3/23 10:27 PM by Evan Ceg
UNI's Jacobson is a very good coach. That said, do you think UNI would have made the Dance if they played in the B1G this year?
Kids are followers. They follow other blue chippers to Duke, Kentucky, Michigan State, Arizona, etc. Penn State MBB needs to get lucky and find that one 4/5-star recruit who wants to be forever remembered for breaking the glass ceiling.
I don't know whether Chambers is the answer, I remain hopeful, but here's what he's dealing with.
One consensus MBB All-American, and that was 60 years ago.Negligible history of PSU MBB players in the NBA.Negligible history of consistent success. Rarely follow a good season with another good season.The absence of any kind of "home" recruiting territory. Pennsylvania prep basketball players don't grow up dreaming of playing for Penn State, as many PA prep football players do. Philly is the only part of Pennsylvania that consistently produces Div-I basketball talent, and then Chambers must deal with the Big 5 and with the low academic quality of many Public League schools. Central PA fandom is all about football and wrestling. The area just doesn't care about basketball. Penn State fans are spoiled front-runners who support winners (except for holding fast during Football's "Dark Years").Penn State is a football school. It's hard to imagine that basketball will ever be esteemed by PSU students and alums as much as football, even if MBB does start winning big.An administration that never cared much about basketball, at least until the current one. John Bach was a highly regarded coach when Penn State hired him. He went .500 in 10 years at PSU and then had a long, venerated career coaching in the NBA. Dick Harter was a "big name" coach when Penn State hired him. After five years and one NIT appearance, he couldn't wait to get out of town and Jim Tarman was only too happy to hold the door open for him. Harter, too, went on to a long and esteemed career coaching in the NBA. A reluctance/refusal to get down and dirty in recruiting. There aren't many schools that can recruit at the 4- and 5-star level without bending the rules and bringing in academically questionable recruits, and those few are long-established MBB powers. A reputation among the coaching community that Penn State is not a "place where you can win."
Chambers' hurdle is Penn State's near complete lack of tradition and cachet in basketball. It's all about recruiting. We have to hope to get lucky with 3-star recruits who well exceed expectations plus land one or two NBA-quality breakthrough recruits, then add coaching that preaches defense and team play.
Ask yourself why Indiana football, Alabama basketball and Duke football (until Cutcliffe) struggle. It's a very similar dynamic.
Our MBB situation is by no means hopeless, but it does require patience and perseverance. I've always felt that if we could just get the boulder pushed over the crest of the mountain, i.e., three consecutive NCAA Tournament teams, it would roll downhill for a long time.
This post was edited on 3/23 10:27 PM by Evan Ceg
Pretty good analysis
but I don't agree that PSU fans won't follow basketball. Look at our crowds when we won the NIT. We might not fill the BJC but we can certainly average 10k. Just have to win. Like you said, we just need to get over the hump and get the momentum going. A kid like Hampton sure would have been nice.
but I don't agree that PSU fans won't follow basketball. Look at our crowds when we won the NIT. We might not fill the BJC but we can certainly average 10k. Just have to win. Like you said, we just need to get over the hump and get the momentum going. A kid like Hampton sure would have been nice.
Re: I don't think that's fair
I'm just saying that not only did Northern Iowa get in, they got in as a 5-seed. It's not so unusual for relative no-names to get in and even do so with a respectable seed. Meanwhile, Penn State is nowhere close to sniffing the tournament at any seed.
I'm just saying that not only did Northern Iowa get in, they got in as a 5-seed. It's not so unusual for relative no-names to get in and even do so with a respectable seed. Meanwhile, Penn State is nowhere close to sniffing the tournament at any seed.
Re: I don't think that's fair
Why? Simply because in football there are just more pieces to the puzzle. In basketball, you have guards, forwards, and centers. Yeah, I know it's a little more complicated than that but in football, there's your skill players, offensive guys, defensive guys and special team players. And still, much more complicated than that too.
So I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel for our basketball program. A quality big man (maybe Watkins) and one or two other quality guys (maybe Reaves) could be enough to get things rolling. Now the class of 2016 is extremely important to keep the momentum going especially since we all know we lost a quality guy and presently do not have any verbal commitments for that class. Let's see what Chambers can get us. I'll certainly be watching.
Having a similar sentiment with everything you've said, I believe that it is easier to turn around a basketball program than it is a football program. In other words, I think that our chance of improving our basketball team will happen sooner than maybe Indiana's prospect of improving their football team.
Why? Simply because in football there are just more pieces to the puzzle. In basketball, you have guards, forwards, and centers. Yeah, I know it's a little more complicated than that but in football, there's your skill players, offensive guys, defensive guys and special team players. And still, much more complicated than that too.
So I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel for our basketball program. A quality big man (maybe Watkins) and one or two other quality guys (maybe Reaves) could be enough to get things rolling. Now the class of 2016 is extremely important to keep the momentum going especially since we all know we lost a quality guy and presently do not have any verbal commitments for that class. Let's see what Chambers can get us. I'll certainly be watching.
Re: I never said that either.
Some people will spin anything in an attempt to make their overwhelming negativity and lack of knowledge seem understandable.
Excellent post
Chambers has a few things working for him in addition to, evidently, long overdue support from the AD.
The demise of the old Big East makes the Big Ten a bit more of a viable option to kids from the Philly area now..
The addition of Maryland and Rutgers to the Big Ten will give us a media presence in the I95 corrider that we've never had.
The succes of the Big Ten Network means that Philly kids friends and family can count on seeing every one of their kids games on TV.
Those three items will go a long way toward making Chambers uphill battle a bit less of a climb than it was for his predecessors.
Chambers has a few things working for him in addition to, evidently, long overdue support from the AD.
The demise of the old Big East makes the Big Ten a bit more of a viable option to kids from the Philly area now..
The addition of Maryland and Rutgers to the Big Ten will give us a media presence in the I95 corrider that we've never had.
The succes of the Big Ten Network means that Philly kids friends and family can count on seeing every one of their kids games on TV.
Those three items will go a long way toward making Chambers uphill battle a bit less of a climb than it was for his predecessors.
Sure, we could switch coaches and turn it around quickly... if you don't care about committing all kinds of recruiting violations.
Those of you who say that Penn State has so much to sell recruits (academics, etc.) are right, EXCEPT we don't have a track record in winning, a track record in going to the post season, a track record of post season honors for our players, nor a track record of putting players in the NBA. If Newbill played on just about any other team in the conference this year, he's first team All Big Ten. But because he played for Penn State... So, you know, other than that, why wouldn't top players want to come to Penn State? You have to find kids that are willing to overlook all of that, and who believe they can turn it around when just about EVERYONE has failed in the past. They also have to be willing to risk their basketball future if things don't turn around. How many top players out there do you think fit that mold? Chambers is a salesmen, and quite frankly that's what we need, he's got a hell of a sales job to do. Get a strong Xs and Os assistant if you need to.
Regarding Northern Iowa... what would their record be in the Big Ten, going against so many power teams on a regular basis? And what would Penn State's record be in their conference, where you don't face so many tough teams night in and night out? I said this when we jumped from the A10 to the Big Ten, but many of our sports had to adjust to tougher competition. Most of them did and we seem to have greater post season results as a consequence. How many times prior to the Big Ten did ranked PSU teams (all sports) crash and burn in the post season when we hit real competition? Exceptions for teams that competed outside the A10. Our athletic program is much stronger overall for making the move. Although we are still playing catch up with facilities in some sports, 20 years later. Off track, but point being I stringky suspect our record would be much better playing in their conference.
Those of you who say that Penn State has so much to sell recruits (academics, etc.) are right, EXCEPT we don't have a track record in winning, a track record in going to the post season, a track record of post season honors for our players, nor a track record of putting players in the NBA. If Newbill played on just about any other team in the conference this year, he's first team All Big Ten. But because he played for Penn State... So, you know, other than that, why wouldn't top players want to come to Penn State? You have to find kids that are willing to overlook all of that, and who believe they can turn it around when just about EVERYONE has failed in the past. They also have to be willing to risk their basketball future if things don't turn around. How many top players out there do you think fit that mold? Chambers is a salesmen, and quite frankly that's what we need, he's got a hell of a sales job to do. Get a strong Xs and Os assistant if you need to.
Regarding Northern Iowa... what would their record be in the Big Ten, going against so many power teams on a regular basis? And what would Penn State's record be in their conference, where you don't face so many tough teams night in and night out? I said this when we jumped from the A10 to the Big Ten, but many of our sports had to adjust to tougher competition. Most of them did and we seem to have greater post season results as a consequence. How many times prior to the Big Ten did ranked PSU teams (all sports) crash and burn in the post season when we hit real competition? Exceptions for teams that competed outside the A10. Our athletic program is much stronger overall for making the move. Although we are still playing catch up with facilities in some sports, 20 years later. Off track, but point being I stringky suspect our record would be much better playing in their conference.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
FB Recruiting NitBits: Multiple top prospects to visit campus this weekend- Latest: Dylan Callaghan-Croley