Mental health vs wilting under pressure for athletes

[jjw165]

It is remarkable to me that otherwise intelligent people think the brain is some magical perfect organ that is the only organ that can be corrected by will power. When was that ignorant concept created? Chemistry of the brain is a terrible thing to waste.

Yes. It is very complex.

What causes depression? - Harvard Health

Depression has many possible causes, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, stressful life events, medications, and medical problems. It's believed that several of th...

www.health.harvard.edu

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

I am a licensed psychologist of 40 years (retired). Positive self talk without achieving objectives and goals is not something we do. The "power of positive thinking" and everything is rosy is not what we do. We do work on giving individuals cognitive and behavioral skills including relaxation to handle situations in a more effective fashion and overcome obstacles such as depression and anxiety. Your ideas about mental health work is not accurate.
In terms of athletes ,I did not do much of it and there are specialists who do get athletes to cope better under pressure. I have followed Tom Brady's career since he beat PSU with a 4th quarter come back many years ago. I had not seen many quarterbacks "rise to the occasion" like he did and I was shocked when he was drafted so low (not hindsight). If I was a sports psychologist I would want to study what Tom Brady and a few others like him do because they handle pressure like few do. In terms of Michael Phelps he advocates for MH like few athletes do. He sure rose to the occasion-23 times for 23 gold medals! However, he has still battled periods of depression which he is open about.
Psychologists are scientists first and study what works; we use the term empirically validated. We just do not throw things out there and hope it works.

Thank you for sharing your insight. I’m curious, are there studies for the effects (short and long term) of reward/gratification from unjustified merit? Perhaps this is slightly off-topic, but belongs at least tangentially in this conversation…I’m just curious about the psychological impacts that the “participation trophy” era has had on mental health in sports and otherwise.

 

[Obliviax]

It is remarkable to me that otherwise intelligent people think the brain is some magical perfect organ that is the only organ that can be corrected by will power. When was that ignorant concept created? Chemistry of the brain is a terrible thing to waste.

its not ignorant at all. some people can overcome mental challenges and some people cannot. It is no different than dieting, not smoking dope, not drinking, or making that extra sprint, practice, video review, etc. Life is about overcoming obstacles. Sometimes the obstacle is too great no matter the discipline. I am never going to play center in the NBA no matter how hard I try. But SB has done it, and dozens of times, this time she was not able to. Age? Pressure? Lack of preparation? Too many ghosts of the past? Who knows. Fact is, after being the best for years, she was not the best last week.

 

[Obliviax]

Yes. It is very complex.

What causes depression? - Harvard Health

Depression has many possible causes, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, stressful life events, medications, and medical problems. It's believed that several of th...

www.health.harvard.edu

Is SB "depressed?" I don't think so. She won bronze last night. I think there was a combination of things that caused her to flame out. But I don't think she is clinically depressed.

 

[BobPSU92]

Bottom line: Simone owed us gold medals and let us down. We all have invested too much in her for this result. Unacceptable.

 

[BBrown]

Is it? How so? She was on the vault last night or what in your clinical diagnosis is so interesting about it? I bet there is some really deep stuff you're holding on to just waiting to share with world. How long is the recovery from something like this? Do people ever bounce back, what is the percentage? I know this site is full of experts on this matter, so have at it. So far we have mostly old men saying she choked and how dare she use mental health as an excuse. Then again unless they people are straight up a-holes they wouldn't talk like that to her in person so it's just people spouting out BS for the most part IMO. It's what these boards are for.

I swear to God some of these dopes were coaching football when giving water during practice was considered a sign of weakness.

 

[jjw165]

Is SB "depressed?" I don't think so. She won bronze last night. I think there was a combination of things that caused her to flame out. But I don't think she is clinically depressed.

I’m speaking in generalized terms that mental health is complicated. An example is depression and the combination of factors that cause it.
There isn’t anybody here that can armchair diagnose Simone. I am certainly not going to try. Her sports psychologist and psychiatrist have the best info about her.
I suppose my point is that everything our society has experienced with Covid over the last 1.5 years is having deleterious effects on mental health and I wouldn’t be surprised if athletes are having the same experiences.

 

[LMTLION]

I have observed over the past few years in my organization that we have had to provide intermittent fmla benefits for mental health issues. Regardless of what that person has going in that day, they can call their supervisor and indicate they are using an fmla day and that must be granted if it it follows their physician signed order. I cannot say if it is real or not ( we have good people so I assume it is real), but I can say from my vantage point ( I have run my organization and an other at this position for the last 10 years) that I have only seen this mental health fmla phenomenon over the last 2 or 3 years. It does worry me about the mental state of society.

 

[GreggK]

You guys realize that Simone Biles was one of Larry Nassar's victims, right? She has battled depression for several years.

@NoBareFeet Is there a reason you put a laughing emoji at this?

 

[LaJollaLion]

@NoBareFeet Is there a reason you put a laughing emoji at this?

Yes there certainly is.

 

[GreggK]

Yes there certainly is.

And the reason is?

 

[LaJollaLion]

And the reason is?

You have seen his posts right?

 

[rudedude]

And the reason is?

This explains it

 

[ram2020]

Not every person does, but you somehow exclude people if they are famous or make money. Kurt Colbain, Anthony Bordain, Robin Williams, Junior Seau, Aaron Hernandez......nevermind the ones that suffer from depression. You then blast Irving for saying there is more to life than basketball.....the same exact sh!t Joe used to tell the kids playing football. Even the ones he knew that would make millions. The bottom line is this girl was abused and we have zero idea of what demons are crawling inside her head....people are mad that she quit...oh well. Somehow athletes that you choose to put on a pedestal need to walk on water....I don't buy that. I must say this also, your takes generally all suck so it's par for the course since you want to go that route.

Mental health issues are REAL, I gave a personal accounting of them, I of course acknowledge that many athletes, celebrities, musicians, and rich people have them(for your pathetic strawman argument that I ever claimed differently). The weird thing is, I actually never mentioned simone biles specifically. I think I brought up Aaron Rodgers and Kyrie Irving so far, but ces't le vide. I referenced your retort specifically, but like a petulant little child you suggest all my takes are bad... so do us both a favor and lose my number(put me on ignore). No wait, I'll get it started.

 

[fkkkjm]

Is that your opinion, or are you a licensed psychologist of 40 years?

I agree with him. Go hide in a closet

 

[GreggK]

You have seen his posts right?

Ill be honest, I have tried to stay away from most posts that aren't football related these days.
I just found that to be disgusting so I called it out.

 

[wbcincy]

I think she made the smart decision as a human being (don’t put yourself at risk for serious harm given what she was going through), but that doesn’t preclude her from criticism athletically when you essentially choke at such a pivotal time. So I don’t blame her for her decision, but I also don’t think it’s heroic or deserving of praise. She’s an athlete that choked, and her particular sport means she can’t even attempt it when that’s the case or she could be hurt.

 

[ouirpsu]

She doesn’t need fame, she doesn’t necessarily need the money. If she did, would she have been able to work her way through it?

I don’t disagree with most of your post except for the part I extracted. There’s no correlation between mental health/illness and the desire for fame and/or money.

 

[wbcincy]

Interesting - the same group of people that complain that an athlete uses mental health issues to not be able to perform, support a specific kind of guy who relies on having mental health issues when he walks into a high school and shoots up half the student body and teachers. Instead of just calling that particular kind of guy a criminal.

Guess I’ll need to see who these people are that have “supported” a school shooter. Cannot recall seeing that.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I don’t disagree with most of your post except for the part I extracted. There’s no correlation between mental health/illness and the desire for fame and/or money.

No, and I wasn’t intending to say there is. My intent in saying that is that achieving fame or wealth can decrease motivation to achieve. Or put in the opposite order, wanting to achieve fame and/or wealth can provide motivation and focus to push through things you may not otherwise. And beyond the fame/wealth, past accomplishment can reduce the motivation or focus.

 

[ouirpsu]

Mental Health is a real problem and for far too long we as a society have turned our back on people with mental health issues and just labeled them as "weird" or "unfit." This hits home to me as I have a sister with significant mental health issues. That said, I think these athletes are abusing and undermining real mental health challenges for their discomfort in competition or displeasure in their position on their teams etc. Aaron Rodgers basically packed up after the season and burned the organization down while citing mental health on the way out the door, nevermind the organization is bending over backwards to get him what he wants and pay him literal top dollar. This is manifesting itself everywhere now, tennis, athletes required to speak to the press after losses are not showing up, citing "mental health." I can't help but think that these people are conflating actual responsibility with personal rights or "living their truth". Kyrie Irving just takes weeks off the NBA season every year to get his "mind right." These people get paid handsomely and receive unbelievable notoriety and celebrity....I'm sorry, part of the deal is that you are available and able to perform consistently and to expectation when the lights are the brightest. In my mind, that IS the definition of an Olympic athlete or a professional athlete. You handle more stress, in high pressure situation, and perform exceedingly well in those moments. The rest of us don't have the talent....sure, but we also don't have the toughness. What is the old expression....."the best ability is availability."
Can you imagine back in the 80's an NFL player walking into Bill Parcells office and saying he needed to "work on his mental health, take time to himself?" Parcells would have his ass cut that day. Now, many will say these affirming coaches and sensitive organizations represent progress and....maybe, but are we coddling our society, in particular young millennials now(for which I am one)? As fast as the individual players cite mental health, the leagues and the organizations rush to put out PR platitudes about " bravery, support, and acceptance" of these athletes. We are on a very slippery slope and I see it in my place of business too. Everyone must be "Affirming" or risk the cancel mob or worse, lawsuits. Mental health should be taken seriously, but multi-millionaire athletes referencing it while subverting their responsibilities is becoming bracingly common. If the leagues themselves and Olympic sports are truly consequential on people's mental health, than maybe we need to have a different conversation about competition and entertainment in general?

I actually met Bill Parcells a number of times. He was a great football coach but a really sh!tty person.

 

[lurkerlion]

I saw part of a Joe Rohan podcast discussing Simone. He indicated there was a rumor that her ADHD medication was illegal in Japan(the country, not the Olympic body). If so, her problems are not just possible, but predictable.

Has anybody heard this discussed or debunked? This would open a whole other discussion.

 

[ouirpsu]

I agree with him. Go hide in a closet

You agree with who now? I forget. And hide in a closet? What are you, six? Just say what you mean.

 

[MJG-90]

Geez. I wish I hadn’t opened this thread. I’ve lost a lot of respect for several of you barstool psychiatrists that I used to respect here.

 

[fkkkjm]

I think she made the smart decision as a human being (don’t put yourself at risk for serious harm given what she was going through), but that doesn’t preclude her from criticism athletically when you essentially choke at such a pivotal time. So I don’t blame her for her decision, but I also don’t think it’s heroic or deserving of praise. She’s an athlete that choked, and her particular sport means she can’t even attempt it when that’s the case or she could be hurt.

This is a fair take. I don’t think she should be praised nor criticized. Having a mental breakdown at the worst possible time is a dangerous prospect in many professions. Either you figure it out or find a new line of work. I wouldn’t want to get on a plane or a boat where the captain was prone to mental breakdowns.

 

[ericstratton-rushchairman]

If there were people shooting at these athletes from elevated positions while they try to perform their craft then I’d be far more compassionate. I am not saying they are immune to mental health stressors, but if we are to all wring our hands with angst over these poor pampered athletes then let us first give maximum time/attention to our veterans, many of whom who are out on the street. To be honest, I woke up this morning with five f*cks available to give, and the mental health of Olympic athletes ain't on the list

 

[Obliviax]

I think she made the smart decision as a human being (don’t put yourself at risk for serious harm given what she was going through), but that doesn’t preclude her from criticism athletically when you essentially choke at such a pivotal time. So I don’t blame her for her decision, but I also don’t think it’s heroic or deserving of praise. She’s an athlete that choked, and her particular sport means she can’t even attempt it when that’s the case or she could be hurt.

yeah...agreed and good post. There is the concern about her which is just and correct especially given everything she's been through. But there is the issue of competing and being the GOAT. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter why you lost. You record is what your record says you are. I am sympathetic to the 5-11 guy trying out to be a RT but that doesn't make any difference to the HC or QB about to get creamed by the L DE. In sports, it is about performance - end of day.

 

[fkkkjm]

Geez. I wish I hadn’t opened this thread. I’ve lost a lot of respect for several of you barstool psychiatrists that I used to respect here.

Oh come off of it - this is America in 2021. Did you expect civility from this board? There are clowns on both sides who just tow the party lines here. That’s why America blows anymore.

 

[RGWhirly]

Interesting how she made a recovery from those issues in a week.

Well she didn’t completely recover and she still was battling mentally because she did not feel comfortable enough to do her very difficult beam dismount.

 

[fkkkjm]

If there were people shooting at these athletes from elevated positions while they try to perform their craft then I’d be far more compassionate. I am not saying they are immune to mental health stressors, but if we are to all wring our hands with angst over these poor pampered athletes then let us first give maximum time/attention to our veterans, many of whom who are out on the street. To be honest, I woke up this morning with five f*cks available to give, and the mental health of Olympic athletes ain't on the list

Last sentence is pure gold. About sums it up. I need to mow my lawn and pay my mortgage today - 2 of my 5 got used up as I rolled out of bed.

 

[LemonEars]

Mental Health is a real problem and for far too long we as a society have turned our back on people with mental health issues and just labeled them as "weird" or "unfit." This hits home to me as I have a sister with significant mental health issues. That said, I think these athletes are abusing and undermining real mental health challenges for their discomfort in competition or displeasure in their position on their teams etc. Aaron Rodgers basically packed up after the season and burned the organization down while citing mental health on the way out the door, nevermind the organization is bending over backwards to get him what he wants and pay him literal top dollar. This is manifesting itself everywhere now, tennis, athletes required to speak to the press after losses are not showing up, citing "mental health." I can't help but think that these people are conflating actual responsibility with personal rights or "living their truth". Kyrie Irving just takes weeks off the NBA season every year to get his "mind right." These people get paid handsomely and receive unbelievable notoriety and celebrity....I'm sorry, part of the deal is that you are available and able to perform consistently and to expectation when the lights are the brightest. In my mind, that IS the definition of an Olympic athlete or a professional athlete. You handle more stress, in high pressure situation, and perform exceedingly well in those moments. The rest of us don't have the talent....sure, but we also don't have the toughness. What is the old expression....."the best ability is availability."
Can you imagine back in the 80's an NFL player walking into Bill Parcells office and saying he needed to "work on his mental health, take time to himself?" Parcells would have his ass cut that day. Now, many will say these affirming coaches and sensitive organizations represent progress and....maybe, but are we coddling our society, in particular young millennials now(for which I am one)? As fast as the individual players cite mental health, the leagues and the organizations rush to put out PR platitudes about " bravery, support, and acceptance" of these athletes. We are on a very slippery slope and I see it in my place of business too. Everyone must be "Affirming" or risk the cancel mob or worse, lawsuits. Mental health should be taken seriously, but multi-millionaire athletes referencing it while subverting their responsibilities is becoming bracingly common. If the leagues themselves and Olympic sports are truly consequential on people's mental health, than maybe we need to have a different conversation about competition and entertainment in general?

Well said.

One thing I have concluded from Simone's quandary is that what athletes do is really not that important in the overall scheme of things. They can just walk away and take a brake if they suffer from some mental angst.

There are other situations where that isn't an option. What if a heart surgeon decides he would like a mental health break in the middle of open heart surgery? He just has to toughen up and get the job done. What if a group of soldiers on the eve of D-Day would have gone to Eisenhower and said that they needed a few mental health days before the battle? He likely would have had them shot. What about the roofer who goes out every day and does backbreaking work to feed his family? He has to suck it up and carry the shingles up on the roof regardless of his mental anguish.

World class athletes are fortunate that what they do really isn't that important.

 

[Obliviax]

If there were people shooting at these athletes from elevated positions while they try to perform their craft then I’d be far more compassionate. I am not saying they are immune to mental health stressors, but if we are to all wring our hands with angst over these poor pampered athletes then let us first give maximum time/attention to our veterans, many of whom who are out on the street. To be honest, I woke up this morning with five f*cks available to give, and the mental health of Olympic athletes ain't on the list

Agreed. I think the media's "She is so brave" defense has caused a backlash relative to other athletes that didn't get that kind of PR. Wasn't there outrage at a 76ers player that couldn't make a shot to save his life in the playoffs? I didn't see any sympathy for him...at all, on this board.

I suspect that the media build, and corporate build, of the legend of Simone Biles was just too much to take. And at her age, it cracked. That doesn't take away from what she's accomplished. But in the end, at the 20210 Olympics, she failed.

 

[NoBareFeet]

@NoBareFeet Is there a reason you put a laughing emoji at this?

Yes. I am just amazed at the length people go to try and justify the fact that she quit. I find it amusing.

 

[OaktonDave]

This is a very complicated issue. I have struggled with depression for as long as I can remember and only started to understand what was going in my early 30's. At that point in my life, I was a high functioning person doing well professionally. I was working 60+ hours each week and filled my limited free time doing volunteer work. (I took my first real vacation when I was 37.) Unless you knew me really well you would not have seen the red flags, and the only person who knew that I had frequent suicidal thoughts was me. While I was not a high level athlete, let's just say that I was always a good student and had a very good career, one that allowed me to retire at 56 and continue living in an expensive area and maintain my lifestyle without working another day in my life.

My point of my story is that high function and success and some mental disorders are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Further, when someone starts to address the issue it is almost certainly not because the issue just came up. It is far more likely that they just reached a point a point where their disorder had started impacting them in ways they couldn't handle without help or started affecting new areas of their life that had been previously untouched. People who don't know the person well are clueless, and those that do know them are often only slightly less surprised.

High level athletes can develop mental blocks that impede their ability to perform; we can all name athletes who "lost it" for no apparent reason. I don't know that I would equate such mental blocks with personality disorders only because the blocks involve performance in a specific activity rather than most aspects of their life. Sure, a professional golfer with the putting yips may experience extreme personal hardship through loss of their livelihood, but that's a different situation that someone like John Daly whose depression lead to multiple addictions and wrecked much of his life.

I find the "there's more to life than..." comments from athletes when made following a poor performance off putting. Yes, it's true, but in that context, it's self-serving. Unless you have an incredibly easy job, you are going to have days when you fall short and let others down. Yes, there is more to life than fixing a car correctly, fixing a tooth correctly, doing someone's taxes in a way that keeps them out of hot water with the IRS, etc.; the day that you screw up is not your day to remind the world of that truth.

 

[GreggK]

Yes. I am just amazed at the length people go to try and justify the fact that she quit. I find it amusing.

So you laughed at the fact she was sexually abused and how dare that be an excuse? Got it.
You realize these are just sports right?

 

[BBrown]

And the reason is?

He's an asshole. Its really that simple.

 

[LaJollaLion]

He's an asshole. Its really that simple.

Well that was pretty much it....yep.

 

[AWS1022]

So you laughed at the fact she was sexually abused and how dare that be an excuse? Got it.
You realize these are just sports right?

So she wasn’t sexually abused prior to the last Olympics? Or was this a delayed reaction?

 

[BBrown]

So she wasn’t sexually abused prior to the last Olympics? Or was this a delayed reaction?

Don't conflate the 2. I don't think thats the reason she got the "twisties".
But it was just foul for someone to laugh at her being abused.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I actually met Bill Parcells a number of times. He was a great football coach but a really sh!tty person.

My father used to talk to him on the boardwalk from time to time, shortly after they had both had open heart surgery. My father enjoyed chatting with him.