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Mental health vs wilting under pressure for athletes

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blion72

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listening to Michael Phelps talk about mental health issues for athletes just felt a bit off. There are real mental health issues, and probably many of us have had family members treated for that type of problem. However, athletes who cannot perform in the moment has been something we have seen for decades, and I have never felt that was mental health. how many Buffalo Bills fans would feel the guy who missed the Super Bowl FG that cost them would feel they need to worry about the guy's mental health. the ability to perform under pressure is the difference between the super stars and the rest of the pack. Tom Brady was drafted late, and was not a high performer in any of the individual combine style measures. However, he is HOF QB who may go down at the best ever.

Mental health is no joke and all the drug abuse we have around the condition makes it very serious. However, putting athletes who wilt under pressure in the category of mental health seems like it is doing a disservice.
 
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This is just the next phase of the self-esteem movement.

First, it was "you should feel good about yourself for no reason at all." Positive self-value based on nothing. And if anything challenged your value, then two approaches are taken: one, remember your positive self-worth and two, that challenge is wrong (person, event, etc.)

Now, it's "you shouldn't feel bad for any reason, about anything, ever." Remove any negative feeling from every human being. And if you're in a situation that causes you to feel bad, claim "mental health attack" or "I don't feel safe" and the world must back off and allow you to quit/retreat. Because "mental health" is not your personal responsibility; it's beyond your control and so everyone must treat you like a sick person to help you feel better again.

(DISCLAIMER: there are mental health issues that are beyond your responsibility. But most of what is now being labeled "mental health" is just what we called reality in the past.)
 
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I am a licensed psychologist of 40 years (retired). Positive self talk without achieving objectives and goals is not something we do. The "power of positive thinking" and everything is rosy is not what we do. We do work on giving individuals cognitive and behavioral skills including relaxation to handle situations in a more effective fashion and overcome obstacles such as depression and anxiety. Your ideas about mental health work is not accurate.
In terms of athletes ,I did not do much of it and there are specialists who do get athletes to cope better under pressure. I have followed Tom Brady's career since he beat PSU with a 4th quarter come back many years ago. I had not seen many quarterbacks "rise to the occasion" like he did and I was shocked when he was drafted so low (not hindsight). If I was a sports psychologist I would want to study what Tom Brady and a few others like him do because they handle pressure like few do. In terms of Michael Phelps he advocates for MH like few athletes do. He sure rose to the occasion-23 times for 23 gold medals! However, he has still battled periods of depression which he is open about.
Psychologists are scientists first and study what works; we use the term empirically validated. We just do not throw things out there and hope it works.
 
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OMG... don't buy it. It's an easy out. Is this a result of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality? I'm sorry, it comes with the territory. These athletes have been conditioned to perform for many, many years. They just didn't throw some "Joe Schmoe" in there with no prep. Burnout maybe. I get that. But don't drop the "mental health" issues on us. You want the money and all of the adulation but we are supposed to feel sorry for you? Please. Simone Biles let her team down by taking an easy out. She should have thought about that at the trials. She took a spot from someone else who was more deserving. Who worked just as hard to earn it. Now she will go on tour making $$$ speaking on how she bailed. Is she going to give back all of the sponsorship money that she has accumulated during these Olympic Games after all she was the poster gal for team USA? Nope.
 
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Ian said:
OMG... don't buy it. It's an easy out. Is this a result of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality? I'm sorry, it comes with the territory. These athletes have been conditioned to perform for many, many years. They just didn't throw some "Joe Schmoe" in there with no prep. Burnout maybe. I get that. But don't drop the "mental health" issues on us. You want the money and all of the adulation but we are supposed to feel sorry for you? Please. Simone Biles let her team down by taking an easy out. She should have thought about that at the trials. She took a spot from someone else who was more deserving. Who worked just as hard to earn it. Now she will go on tour making $$$ speaking on how she bailed. Is she going to give back all of the sponsorship money that she has accumulated during these Olympic Games after all she was the poster gal for team USA? Nope.
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I pretty much agree with this. Mental health is very important. We all need to make sure we have our heads right. But an athlete has to make sure their heads are right for the specific moments they need to compete. If Biles head was not in the right place to perform that is 100% on her for not preparing herself for the moment. I get it, it’s a ton of pressure. But it is your responsibility to perform under that pressure in that moment.
 
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Connorpozlee said:
I pretty much agree with this. Mental health is very important. We all need to make sure we have our heads right. But an athlete has to make sure their heads are right for the specific moments they need to compete. If Biles head was not in the right place to perform that is 100% on her for not preparing herself for the moment. I get it, it’s a ton of pressure. But it is your responsibility to perform under that pressure in that moment.
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I’m no licensed psychologist, but I believe you and the others here are conflating mental health with the inability to excel under pressure.
 
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Ian said:
OMG... don't buy it. It's an easy out. Is this a result of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality? I'm sorry, it comes with the territory. These athletes have been conditioned to perform for many, many years. They just didn't throw some "Joe Schmoe" in there with no prep. Burnout maybe. I get that. But don't drop the "mental health" issues on us. You want the money and all of the adulation but we are supposed to feel sorry for you? Please. Simone Biles let her team down by taking an easy out. She should have thought about that at the trials. She took a spot from someone else who was more deserving. Who worked just as hard to earn it. Now she will go on tour making $$$ speaking on how she bailed. Is she going to give back all of the sponsorship money that she has accumulated during these Olympic Games after all she was the poster gal for team USA? Nope.
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So in your world people schedule their mental breakdowns. Have you anyone you know ever in your life had anxiety or a panic attack? How did you guys go about scheduling it? Did you mark it in your calendars? It sucks that it happened, but these BS posts about how selfish she was is load of $hit. Maybe the licensed psychologist in this thread can speak to the subject of how she should have scheduled her breakdown sooner as I wasn't aware people had those options.

BTW, she was worth over 4-5 million last year so I doubt this was a money grab. Even more so when you hear other gymnasts talking about the "twisties" and how disoriented they become....then again I'm sure you're a closet gymnast too who can speak from experience on that matter.
 
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I'm guessing that this convo arose bc of Simone. She had the Twisties... Not depression, anxiety, etc. That's why she even had to change her dismount on the beam today. Familiarize yourself with what the Twisties actually are, beyond a childish name.
 
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LaJollaLion said:
So in your world people schedule their mental breakdowns. Have you anyone you know ever in your life had anxiety or a panic attack? How did you guys go about scheduling it? Did you mark it in your calendars? It sucks that it happened, but these BS posts about how selfish she was is load of $hit. Maybe the licensed psychologist in this thread can speak to the subject of how she should have scheduled her breakdown sooner as I wasn't aware people had those options.

BTW, she was worth over 4-5 million last year so I doubt this was a money grab. Even more so when you hear other gymnasts talking about the "twisties" and how disoriented they become....then again I'm sure you're a closet gymnast too who can speak from experience on that matter.
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I agree. Even though we’ve come a long way, mental health is still stigmatized by many.
 
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psuguy43 said:
I'm guessing that this convo arose bc of Simone. She had the Twisties... Not depression, anxiety, etc. That's why she even had to change her dismount on the beam today. Familiarize yourself with what the Twisties actually are, beyond a childish name.
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I feel like the term “twisties” does a disservice to the severity of the condition, and how it affects gymnasts.
 
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ouirpsu said:
I’m no licensed psychologist, but I believe you and the others here are conflating mental health with the ability to excel under pressure.
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They’re not mutually exclusive. Biles may be having a bigger issue than just the “twisties”. That issue itself may be caused by distractions that allow her mind to lose the singular focus necessary to compete at that level. I honestly haven’t followed the situation all that closely so from what I know, that was her reason for bailing. She certainly has shown the ability perform incredibly well under pressure in the past.
My feeling on what is going on is that mental health may be getting used as a phrase people use to protect themselves (or others use to protect them) when it really is a performance issue. I face pressure in my job, you surely face some pressure in your job. I don’t get to wave my hands at my boss and say, “Nope, not today. Mental health issue so I’m going to sit this one out. Go to your second option.” I do the job to the best of my ability that day, even with a million other things going on in my life that I care a lot more about than what I’m doing at work. I’m not insensitive to mental health issues by any means (I spend a bulk of my work day dealing with them) but I don’t want it to become minimized.
 
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africamurphy said:
This is just the next phase of the self-esteem movement.

First, it was "you should feel good about yourself for no reason at all." Positive self-value based on nothing. And if anything challenged your value, then two approaches are taken: one, remember your positive self-worth and two, that challenge is wrong (person, event, etc.)

Now, it's "you shouldn't feel bad for any reason, about anything, ever." Remove any negative feeling from every human being. And if you're in a situation that causes you to feel bad, claim "mental health attack" or "I don't feel safe" and the world must back off and allow you to quit/retreat. Because "mental health" is not your personal responsibility; it's beyond your control and so everyone must treat you like a sick person to help you feel better again.

(DISCLAIMER: there are mental health issues that are beyond your responsibility. But most of what is now being labeled "mental health" is just what we called reality in the past.)
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Connorpozlee said:
They’re not mutually exclusive. Biles may be having a bigger issue than just the “twisties”. That issue itself may be caused by distractions that allow her mind to lose the singular focus necessary to compete at that level. I honestly haven’t followed the situation all that closely so from what I know, that was her reason for bailing. She certainly has shown the ability perform incredibly well under pressure in the past.
My feeling on what is going on is that mental health may be getting used as a phrase people use to protect themselves (or others use to protect them) when it really is a performance issue. I face pressure in my job, you surely face some pressure in your job. I don’t get to wave my hands at my boss and say, “Nope, not today. Mental health issue so I’m going to sit this one out. Go to your second option.” I do the job to the best of my ability that day, even with a million other things going on in my life that I care a lot more about than what I’m doing at work. I’m not insensitive to mental health issues by any means (I spend a bulk of my work day dealing with them) but I don’t want it to become minimized.
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David Duval was on top of the golf world, lost it, never came back from it. Countless athletes got the yips and never bounced back. Humans love to pretend we have all the answers, but we don't. We make silly comparisons (I'm guilty of it) our jobs/lives to someone elses, but we don't know what other baggage they are carrying around inside. It was most certainly tied to performance as she said she had no clue as to where she was in the air and while that may occur at your job, I bet you can just take a seat.
 
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blion72 said:
listening to Michael Phelps talk about mental health issues for athletes just felt a bit off. There are real mental health issues, and probably many of us have had family members treated for that type of problem. However, athletes who cannot perform in the moment has been something we have seen for decades, and I have never felt that was mental health. how many Buffalo Bills fans would feel the guy who missed the Super Bowl FG that cost them would feel they need to worry about the guy's mental health. the ability to perform under pressure is the difference between the super stars and the rest of the pack. Tom Brady was drafted late, and was not a high performer in any of the individual combine style measures. However, he is HOF QB who may go down at the best ever.

Mental health is no joke and all the drug abuse we have around the condition makes it very serious. However, putting athletes who wilt under pressure in the category of mental health seems like it is doing a disservice.
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This applies to the accountant, teacher, student non athlete etc. High stess moments are typically when mental illness breaks the surface... That is why it is called PTSD.

Pointing fingers at athletes as if they are different than the rest of humanity does not seem useful to me.

Seriously, Air Traffic Controllers come to mind. Do they crack because of the momentary peak of stress or the combination of stress and their underlying mental disorder?

Seems a chicken egg situation to this layman.
 
LaJollaLion said:
David Duval was on top of the golf world, lost it, never came back from it. Countless athletes got the yips and never bounced back. Humans love to pretend we have all the answers, but we don't. We make silly comparisons (I'm guilty of it) our jobs/lives to someone elses, but we don't know what other baggage they are carrying around inside. It was most certainly tied to performance as she said she had no clue as to where she was in the air and while that may occur at your job, I bet you can just take a seat.
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Well, sure. That’s not much different than what I said. Her focus was lost somewhere along the way. Outside pressure/distractions, internal pressure, troubles from her past rising up, something else, something. We have no way of knowing, but I wonder if she would have been able to battle through it if she hadn’t already had the success she’s had? That is a part of mentality that is not necessarily “mental health”. The desire to fight through obstacles to achieve a goal. She doesn’t need fame, she doesn’t necessarily need the money. If she did, would she have been able to work her way through it?
For the record, I don’t know how they do what they do to begin with. I’m not much of a risk taker. If I had to do the vault I would slowly walk up to it, get a step stool to get to the top of it, crawl on top, the slide carefully down making sure to land softly in my feet. What they manage to do is amazing.
 
LaJollaLion said:
So in your world people schedule their mental breakdowns. Have you anyone you know ever in your life had anxiety or a panic attack? How did you guys go about scheduling it? Did you mark it in your calendars? It sucks that it happened, but these BS posts about how selfish she was is load of $hit. Maybe the licensed psychologist in this thread can speak to the subject of how she should have scheduled her breakdown sooner as I wasn't aware people had those options.

BTW, she was worth over 4-5 million last year so I doubt this was a money grab. Even more so when you hear other gymnasts talking about the "twisties" and how disoriented they become....then again I'm sure you're a closet gymnast too who can speak from experience on that matter.
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Clinical social worker here. If she had another “physical” ailment, it would be ok. But placing the mental health aspect, all of a sudden she’s ridiculed. We’ve had this discussion last week with someone posting. There is psychological trauma here that may of surfaced that could’ve triggered her situation. We don’t know! Think of it this way, if your not “locked in” mentally doing the sport they do, there is serious injury.
 
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Connorpozlee said:
Well, sure. That’s not much different than what I said. Her focus was lost somewhere along the way. Outside pressure/distractions, internal pressure, troubles from her past rising up, something else, something. We have no way of knowing, but I wonder if she would have been able to battle through it if she hadn’t already had the success she’s had? That is a part of mentality that is not necessarily “mental health”. The desire to fight through obstacles to achieve a goal. She doesn’t need fame, she doesn’t necessarily need the money. If she did, would she have been able to work her way through it?
For the record, I don’t know how they do what they do to begin with. I’m not much of a risk taker. If I had to do the vault I would slowly walk up to it, get a step stool to get to the top of it, crawl on top, the slide carefully down making sure to land softly in my feet. What they manage to do is amazing.
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Fighting through an obstacle is what Chuck Knoblauch tried to do and the worst thing that could happen is he threw another ball away. Duval could shank the ball out of bounds. Hurling your self 14-20 feet in the air and now knowing where you may land probably triggers something in your brain to say....wait a second here. Again that an idiots take on the matter as I would take your approach the vault too :). Thank goodness we have so many ex-gymnasts on this site to really deep dive into this with their expert opinions rather than just talking out our arse.

I don't think for one second she didn't wrestle with that desire to win when she stepped back. I bet it was a pretty epic battle inside her head to be honest. I don't get the hate on her or those that disregard that something was off there. Then again I don't live my life through others achievements, but many do in this country.
 
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LaJollaLion said:
Fighting through an obstacle is what Chuck Knoblauch tried to do and the worst thing that could happen is he threw another ball away. Duval could shank the ball out of bounds. Hurling your self 14-20 feet in the air and now knowing where you may land probably triggers something in your brain to say....wait a second here. Again that an idiots take on the matter as I would take your approach the vault too :).

I don't think she didn't wrestle with that desire to win when she stepped back. I bet it was a pretty epic battle inside her head to be honest. I don't get the hate on her or those that disregard that something was off there. Then again I don't live my life through others achievements, but many do in this country.
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Interesting how she made a recovery from those issues in a week.
 
bvillebaron said:
Interesting how she made a recovery from those issues in a week.
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Is it? How so? She was on the vault last night or what in your clinical diagnosis is so interesting about it? I bet there is some really deep stuff you're holding on to just waiting to share with world. How long is the recovery from something like this? Do people ever bounce back, what is the percentage? I know this site is full of experts on this matter, so have at it. So far we have mostly old men saying she choked and how dare she use mental health as an excuse. Then again unless they people are straight up a-holes they wouldn't talk like that to her in person so it's just people spouting out BS for the most part IMO. It's what these boards are for. ;)
 
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blion72 said:
listening to Michael Phelps talk about mental health issues for athletes just felt a bit off. There are real mental health issues, and probably many of us have had family members treated for that type of problem. However, athletes who cannot perform in the moment has been something we have seen for decades, and I have never felt that was mental health. how many Buffalo Bills fans would feel the guy who missed the Super Bowl FG that cost them would feel they need to worry about the guy's mental health. the ability to perform under pressure is the difference between the super stars and the rest of the pack. Tom Brady was drafted late, and was not a high performer in any of the individual combine style measures. However, he is HOF QB who may go down at the best ever.

Mental health is no joke and all the drug abuse we have around the condition makes it very serious. However, putting athletes who wilt under pressure in the category of mental health seems like it is doing a disservice.
Click to expand...
It's a good question. Everyday life can be very stressful. Work, family issues, health, etc. Some people respond to the pressure very well, some not so well. I'm not sure where you draw the line and call something a mental health issue. Some people have "real" mental health issues like psychosis. IMO that's much different than when are struggling with stress. Where do you draw the line?
 
There is a lot to unpack here.

  1. the term "mental health" is much different when being associated with a person having doubts about their performance and somebody being depressed or suicidal.
  2. I believe these terms are conflated when you associate them with a pro-tennis player who doesn't like to get in front of cameras or a gymnast that doubts her performance enough to feel she may injure herself versus someone who can't get out of bed in the morning and is self-abusive.
  3. An athlete's "mental health" is part of the game. Much of mental health is overcoming physical/mental limitations: making that last sprint, spending another half hour running routes, pushing yourself to make that last bench press, when others wouldn't or couldn't. It is also hitting that free throw at crunch time.
  4. It is not well known that Babe Ruth owned the strikeout record as well as HR record. Michael Jordan, in interviews, said that he's missed the big shot as many times as he's made it. Gretzky said that you don't make shots you never take. My point here is that the best athletes always look up, not down. You always see the glass half full. You suppress fear of failure. And that is simply having the mental toughness to overcome fear.
  5. Fact is, controlled fear of failure is what fuels preparation. There are two regrets, the regret of losing, which doesn't last very long because you come to realize the other person was just better and tip you cap to them. And the second regret is the regret of not preparing properly which lasts a lifetime. It is your fault.
  6. Suppressing fear of failure is simply part of mental toughness. It is part of the game. You take and make that shot. I am sure there are those athletes that do become depressed. I believe a reliever committed suicide after giving up a game winning home run in the payoffs (several years after and this may or may not have been associated).
My conclusion is that "mental health" in this case is cheapening the real issue and for those who really suffer from such things. And it is impossible to tell, from the outside, if SB or Kevin Love is really having mental health problems or just having fear of failure. To me, it sounds like an excuse when that person has choked. I golf, they call it "the yips". At my age, I now see life as a journey. losing is part of the journey because it fuels you to get better. Losing isn't bad when properly focused. JVP always said that you improve the most after a loss. And as a fan, I don't care if they are having mental health problems or pulled a muscle. Either way, they aren't 100% and aren't competing and aren't winning. I wish nothing but the best for kevin love and Simone Biles. But to me, not having the mental toughness to overcome fear of failure is no different than not being able to run that last sprint or not being able to keep away from smoking dope. It comes down to mental and physical discipline.
 
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Mental Health is a real problem and for far too long we as a society have turned our back on people with mental health issues and just labeled them as "weird" or "unfit." This hits home to me as I have a sister with significant mental health issues. That said, I think these athletes are abusing and undermining real mental health challenges for their discomfort in competition or displeasure in their position on their teams etc. Aaron Rodgers basically packed up after the season and burned the organization down while citing mental health on the way out the door, nevermind the organization is bending over backwards to get him what he wants and pay him literal top dollar. This is manifesting itself everywhere now, tennis, athletes required to speak to the press after losses are not showing up, citing "mental health." I can't help but think that these people are conflating actual responsibility with personal rights or "living their truth". Kyrie Irving just takes weeks off the NBA season every year to get his "mind right." These people get paid handsomely and receive unbelievable notoriety and celebrity....I'm sorry, part of the deal is that you are available and able to perform consistently and to expectation when the lights are the brightest. In my mind, that IS the definition of an Olympic athlete or a professional athlete. You handle more stress, in high pressure situation, and perform exceedingly well in those moments. The rest of us don't have the talent....sure, but we also don't have the toughness. What is the old expression....."the best ability is availability."
Can you imagine back in the 80's an NFL player walking into Bill Parcells office and saying he needed to "work on his mental health, take time to himself?" Parcells would have his ass cut that day. Now, many will say these affirming coaches and sensitive organizations represent progress and....maybe, but are we coddling our society, in particular young millennials now(for which I am one)? As fast as the individual players cite mental health, the leagues and the organizations rush to put out PR platitudes about " bravery, support, and acceptance" of these athletes. We are on a very slippery slope and I see it in my place of business too. Everyone must be "Affirming" or risk the cancel mob or worse, lawsuits. Mental health should be taken seriously, but multi-millionaire athletes referencing it while subverting their responsibilities is becoming bracingly common. If the leagues themselves and Olympic sports are truly consequential on people's mental health, than maybe we need to have a different conversation about competition and entertainment in general?
 
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psuguy43 said:
I'm guessing that this convo arose bc of Simone. She had the Twisties... Not depression, anxiety, etc. That's why she even had to change her dismount on the beam today. Familiarize yourself with what the Twisties actually are, beyond a childish name.
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She didn’t have the “twisties” until a couple days later….at her press conference she didn’t say anything about that. She said it’s just a sport and there’s more to life than gymnastics (as she’s at the biggest gymnastics stage in the world). It was others who decided she had the twisties. If she wants to pull out of a competition, so be it but let’s not have all these media folks trying to treat her like some sort of a hero for doing it.
 
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AWS1022 said:
She didn’t have the “twisties” until a couple days later….at her press conference she didn’t say anything about that. She said it’s just a sport and there’s more to life than gymnastics (as she’s at the biggest gymnastics stage in the world). It was others who decided she had the twisties. If she wants to pull out of a competition, so be it but let’s not have all these media folks trying to treat her like some sort of a hero for doing it.
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Kyrie Irving for the Nets said after a loss this year "there is more to life than basketball," after a loss to a room full of people dedicating their lives to cover basketball and report on what a basketball player says. This is a new phenomena with athletes, lecturing fans and press about life. Many of which are young multi-millionaires adored by people near and far. It's strange and patronizing to say the least.
 
Interesting - the same group of people that complain that an athlete uses mental health issues to not be able to perform, support a specific kind of guy who relies on having mental health issues when he walks into a high school and shoots up half the student body and teachers. Instead of just calling that particular kind of guy a criminal.
 
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ram2020 said:
Kyrie Irving for the Nets said after a loss this year "there is more to life than basketball," after a loss to a room full of people dedicating their lives to cover basketball and report on what a basketball player says. This is a new phenomena with athletes, lecturing fans and press about life. Many of which are young multi-millionaires adored by people near and far. It's strange and patronizing to say the least.
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And if they have that attitude then they should go explore life and quit the sport.
 
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sw-lion said:
Clinical social worker here. If she had another “physical” ailment, it would be ok. But placing the mental health aspect, all of a sudden she’s ridiculed. We’ve had this discussion last week with someone posting. There is psychological trauma here that may of surfaced that could’ve triggered her situation. We don’t know! Think of it this way, if your not “locked in” mentally doing the sport they do, there is serious injury.
Click to expand...
LaJollaLion said:
Fighting through an obstacle is what Chuck Knoblauch tried to do and the worst thing that could happen is he threw another ball away. Duval could shank the ball out of bounds. Hurling your self 14-20 feet in the air and now knowing where you may land probably triggers something in your brain to say....wait a second here. Again that an idiots take on the matter as I would take your approach the vault too :). Thank goodness we have so many ex-gymnasts on this site to really deep dive into this with their expert opinions rather than just talking out our arse.

I don't think for one second she didn't wrestle with that desire to win when she stepped back. I bet it was a pretty epic battle inside her head to be honest. I don't get the hate on her or those that disregard that something was off there. Then again I don't live my life through others achievements, but many do in this country.
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I’m sure it was a struggle. My question though is would she have been able to fight through the struggle if she wasn’t as accomplished as she already is? Again, I haven’t followed a lot of it as gymnastics are not really my focal point (why watch that when there is BMX bike racing or 3 on 3 basketball on?!?!) but it seems like the “twisties” are something they all go through and all work their way out of at some point. Why did it hit her at the moment it did? Is it because of a mental health condition or was it because of a lack of focus or loss of drive that caused it, which are more preparedness/competitiveness issues than mental health issues. Does that make sense? When I saw her in the stands, she seemed happy to be there cheering her teammates on and I think I heard her say that she likes that role more now. Which is completely understandable as 24 seems pretty old for a gymnast competing at that level. Maybe she has just over being a gymnast and wants to focus on other things like coaching instead?
 
ram2020 said:
Mental Health is a real problem and for far too long we as a society have turned our back on people with mental health issues and just labeled them as "weird" or "unfit." This hits home to me as I have a sister with significant mental health issues. That said, I think these athletes are abusing and undermining real mental health challenges for their discomfort in competition or displeasure in their position on their teams etc. Aaron Rodgers basically packed up after the season and burned the organization down while citing mental health on the way out the door, nevermind the organization is bending over backwards to get him what he wants and pay him literal top dollar. This is manifesting itself everywhere now, tennis, athletes required to speak to the press after losses are not showing up, citing "mental health." I can't help but think that these people are conflating actual responsibility with personal rights or "living their truth". Kyrie Irving just takes weeks off the NBA season every year to get his "mind right." These people get paid handsomely and receive unbelievable notoriety and celebrity....I'm sorry, part of the deal is that you are available and able to perform consistently and to expectation when the lights are the brightest. In my mind, that IS the definition of an Olympic athlete or a professional athlete. You handle more stress, in high pressure situation, and perform exceedingly well in those moments. The rest of us don't have the talent....sure, but we also don't have the toughness. What is the old expression....."the best ability is availability."
Can you imagine back in the 80's an NFL player walking into Bill Parcells office and saying he needed to "work on his mental health, take time to himself?" Parcells would have his ass cut that day. Now, many will say these affirming coaches and sensitive organizations represent progress and....maybe, but are we coddling our society, in particular young millennials now(for which I am one)? As fast as the individual players cite mental health, the leagues and the organizations rush to put out PR platitudes about " bravery, support, and acceptance" of these athletes. We are on a very slippery slope and I see it in my place of business too. Everyone must be "Affirming" or risk the cancel mob or worse, lawsuits. Mental health should be taken seriously, but multi-millionaire athletes referencing it while subverting their responsibilities to is becoming bracingly common.
Click to expand...
So rich people or famous athletes cannot have mental breakdowns? I mean rich people never kill themselves, suffer from depression, have drug problems, or just flat out break down. Their lives are perfect and they cannot use that mental health card as us common folks only have the real problems.

Can you imagine if Bill Parcells tried to coach in 2021 with how strong the players union is....he wouldn't survive as the players who do put their necks on the line fought for more rights....and won. Could you imagine when the team doctor overrules him on the concussion protocol? Those pu$$y doctors looking out for those pu$$y players....man the good old days, am I right? There is some balance to change, so let's have some perspective too.
 
LaJollaLion said:
So rich people or famous athletes cannot have mental breakdowns? I mean rich people never kill themselves, suffer from depression, have drug problems, or just flat out break down. Their lives are perfect and they cannot use that mental health card as us common folks only have the real problems.

Can you imagine if Bill Parcells tried to coach in 2021 with how strong the players union is....he wouldn't survive as the players who do put their necks on the line fought for more rights....and won. Could you imagine when the team doctor overrules him on the concussion protocol? Those pu$$y doctors looking out for those pu$$y players....man the good old days, am I right? There is some balance to change, so let's have some perspective too.
Click to expand...

So obviously you have drawn a line in the sand that there is no nuance here and you will simply affirm every persons right to cite "mental health" in all occasions. Again, I mentioned "rights" being conflated oftentimes with "responsibility. That is literally the only way I can justify you boiling my argument down to: Rich people can't have mental health issues or that I ever even went close to terming anyone a "pu$$Y." And for the "perspective" I should develop, I admitted that there is a level of progress being made as it relates to mental health on and off the field for all walks of life and referenced a very personal experience with mental health in a family member. I have to say man, this is one of the worst retorts I have ever received on this board and I have received many.
 
psuro said:
Interesting - the same group of people that complain that an athlete uses mental health issues to not be able to perform, support a specific kind of guy who relies on having mental health issues when he walks into a high school and shoots up half the student body and teachers. Instead of just calling that particular kind of guy a criminal.
Click to expand...
really? You compare a golfer that has the yips, an NBA player that can't make a free throw, a gymnast that suddenly can't make a twisty to a guy who picks up a rifle and shoots innocent people? You don't see any shades of gray in there?
 
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sw-lion said:
Clinical social worker here. If she had another “physical” ailment, it would be ok. But placing the mental health aspect, all of a sudden she’s ridiculed. We’ve had this discussion last week with someone posting. There is psychological trauma here that may of surfaced that could’ve triggered her situation. We don’t know! Think of it this way, if your not “locked in” mentally doing the sport they do, there is serious injury.
Click to expand...

It is remarkable to me that otherwise intelligent people think the brain is some magical perfect organ that is the only organ that can be corrected by will power. When was that ignorant concept created? Chemistry of the brain is a terrible thing to waste.
 
ram2020 said:
So obviously you have drawn a line in the sand that there is no nuance here and you will simply affirm every persons right to cite "mental health" in all occasions. Again, I mentioned "rights" being conflated oftentimes with "responsibility. That is literally the only way I can justify you boiling my argument down to: Rich people can't have mental health issues or that I ever even went close to terming anyone a "pu$$Y." And for the "perspective" I should develop, I admitted that there is a level of progress being made as it relates to mental health on and off the field for all walks of life and referenced a very personal experience with mental health in a family member. I have to say man, this is one of the worst retorts I have ever received on this board and I have received many.
Click to expand...

Not every person does, but you somehow exclude people if they are famous or make money. Kurt Colbain, Anthony Bordain, Robin Williams, Junior Seau, Aaron Hernandez......nevermind the ones that suffer from depression. You then blast Irving for saying there is more to life than basketball.....the same exact sh!t Joe used to tell the kids playing football. Even the ones he knew that would make millions. The bottom line is this girl was abused and we have zero idea of what demons are crawling inside her head....people are mad that she quit...oh well. Somehow athletes that you choose to put on a pedestal need to walk on water....I don't buy that. I must say this also, your takes generally all suck so it's par for the course since you want to go that route.
 
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