Memory Issues

[bjf1991]

I find it particularly interesting at this point how little some of you are willing to accept that maybe, just maybe it WAS the admins who screwed the pooch here. After Tim and Gary's performance in the GBS trial we still give them a pass while excoriating anyone else in this story.

That's a separate issue to whether "Silver and Spanier" were stupid/conflicted/obtuse (take you pick) during their trial.

One has nothing to do with the other...... not how I look at it, anyway FWIW

I have long since reached the point that I don't much care whether CSS be "guilty" or "innocent" of the specific statutes they were charged on........ in relative terms - I just don't think it amounts to a pimple on an elephant's ass vav the Big Picture stuff.
But that's just an opinion.

 

[coveydidnt]

Except for a few details on Gary's part, their testimony was consistent with what they had previously stated.

Yeah, mostly, except they pled guilty.

 

[no1lion99]

Except for a few details on Gary's part, their testimony was consistent with what they had previously stated.

A reliable post from you Linda. Anything Gary or Tim didn't remember or changed is just "a few details" while any small change by Mike or a victim is he lie that's blows he case wide open and proves the corrupt OAG has a grand conspiracy going.

I guess that Tim had to have his testimony from his plea hearing memory (from 3 weeks prior) refreshed is all just an innocent mistake.

Keep living the dream girl.

 

[coveydidnt]

A reliable post from you Linda. Anything Gary or Tim didn't remember or changed is just "a few details" while any small change by Mike or a victim is he lie that's blows he case wide open and proves the corrupt OAG has a grand conspiracy going.

I guess that Tim had to have his testimony from his plea hearing memory (from 3 weeks prior) refreshed is all just an innocent mistake.

Keep living the dream girl.

Is this a good time to point out that I agree, and that if there's an OAG conspiracy it crosses so many parties & groups it must be the largest conspiracy of all time. How many AG's worked this, from Corbett, to Kelly, Kane, Acting & Acting (2 or 3), and Shapiro? There would be huge motivation for the later AG's, each in sequence to drop this if their predecessor had carried it forward wrongly.

 

[berkland4]

A reliable post from you Linda. Anything Gary or Tim didn't remember or changed is just "a few details" while any small change by Mike or a victim is he lie that's blows he case wide open and proves the corrupt OAG has a grand conspiracy going.

I guess that Tim had to have his testimony from his plea hearing memory (from 3 weeks prior) refreshed is all just an innocent mistake.

Keep living the dream girl.

You again got that wrong. Gary's memory was refreshed, not Tim's. I was there. Were you?

 

[berkland4]

Yeah, mostly, except they pled guilty.

They plead guilty to feeling guilty. Cuff 'em for being human <eye roll>

 

[berkland4]

A reliable post from you Linda. Anything Gary or Tim didn't remember or changed is just "a few details" while any small change by Mike or a victim is he lie that's blows he case wide open and proves the corrupt OAG has a grand conspiracy going.

I guess that Tim had to have his testimony from his plea hearing memory (from 3 weeks prior) refreshed is all just an innocent mistake.

Keep living the dream girl.

By the way, the only variation in Gary's testimony was with regard to Graham's level of involvement in one meeting. Tim's testimony was consistent. Both still deny Mike's story. That has been consistent since day 1.

 

[coveydidnt]

By the way, the only variation in Gary's testimony was with regard to Graham's level of involvement in one meeting. Tim's testimony was consistent. Both still deny Mike's story. That has been consistent since day 1.

This story is 5 yrs old. Next you'll be on here defending the frats & blaming Anheiuser Busch

 

[SmithtonLion]

That's a separate issue to whether "Silver and Spanier" were stupid/conflicted/obtuse (take you pick) during their trial.

One has nothing to do with the other...... not how I look at it, anyway FWIW

I have long since reached the point that I don't much care whether CSS be "guilty" or "innocent" of the specific statutes they were charged on........ in relative terms - I just don't think it amounts to a pimple on an elephant's ass vav the Big Picture stuff.
But that's just an opinion.

Good for you. We need more thinking people. The specific details about who SHOULD have done what, and who told who what, and in what sequence are pretty much irrelevant to the big points, which are as follows.

1. JS is the real criminal.

2. Almost everyone knew something was "wrong" to some degree. Some will argue that Joe should have done the most because he was the most powerful. Some will argue that JR should have done the most because he was the most powerful. Some will argue that the law says that C/S/S were mandatory reporters and should have done the most. Some will argue that MM is the only actual witness, and so he should have done the most. Some will argue that the cops in 1998 had the best evidence, and should have done more. And everyone who supports one of the individuals listed can make the case for why their preferred party should be found "Least Culpable" and that their political enemy should be found "Most Culpable".

3. Far more interesting is the discussion on human behavior that allows that, despite dozens of people knowing something was wrong, not one really did anything to stop it.

4. Far more interesting is the discussion on the aspect of human behavior that caused those who did NOT KNOW much of anything to act in the manner they did (Corbett, BOT, Media).

5. Far less interesting is whether or not people can find a way to blame their preferred target and exclude from blame their preferred innocents.

 

[Mixolydian]

Good for you. We need more thinking people. The specific details about who SHOULD have done what, and who told who what, and in what sequence are pretty much irrelevant to the big points, which are as follows.

1. JS is the real criminal.

2. Almost everyone knew something was "wrong" to some degree. Some will argue that Joe should have done the most because he was the most powerful. Some will argue that JR should have done the most because he was the most powerful. Some will argue that the law says that C/S/S were mandatory reporters and should have done the most. Some will argue that MM is the only actual witness, and so he should have done the most. Some will argue that the cops in 1998 had the best evidence, and should have done more. And everyone who supports one of the individuals listed can make the case for why their preferred party should be found "Least Culpable" and that their political enemy should be found "Most Culpable".

3. Far more interesting is the discussion on human behavior that allows that, despite dozens of people knowing something was wrong, not one really did anything to stop it.

4. Far more interesting is the discussion on the aspect of human behavior that caused those who did NOT KNOW much of anything to act in the manner they did (Corbett, BOT, Media).

5. Far less interesting is whether or not people can find a way to blame their preferred target and exclude from blame their preferred innocents.

Far more interesting is that, regardless of who should get what, if any, portion of the "blame":

1. Sandusky has been charged, tried, convicted and sentenced to life behind bars,
2. Joe Paterno is dead with his stellar reputation and legacy tarnished for eternity,
3. CSS have all at this point been convicted for EWOC and had their lives and reputations ruined,
4. All while McQueary, his dad, Dranov, Raykovitz, certain members of the OGBOT, Corbett, Fina and the rest of the OAG, etc., all of whom own some and arguably significant culpability at the front and back end of the PSU involvement, skate away Scott free.

One can debate who is or isn't culpable, but Joe Paterno and CSS have already worn the only real blame outside of Sandusky, while the others skated. You can't gloss over that aspect of this case and call it irrelevant.

 

[SmithtonLion]

Far more interesting is that, regardless of who should get what, if any, portion of the "blame":

1. Sandusky has been charged, tried, convicted and sentenced to life behind bars,
2. Joe Paterno is dead with his stellar reputation and legacy tarnished for eternity,
3. CSS have all at this point been convicted for EWOC and had their lives and reputations ruined,
4. All while McQueary, his dad, Dranov, Raykovitz, certain members of the OGBOT, Corbett, Fina and the rest of the OAG, etc., all of whom own some and arguably significant culpability at the front and back end of the PSU involvement, skate away Scott free.

You can't gloss over that aspect of this case and call it irrelevant.

OK, I'll settle it.

Here is the distribution of blame for JS being allowed to continue abusing kids:
97% - Jerry Sandusky.
1.2% - C/S/S
0.7% - MM
0.4% - State Cops in 1998.
0.8% - Raykovitz.
0.7% - JoePa

Here is the blame distribution for the media firestorm that wrongly abused people who were essentially bystanders:
74% - Media
13% - BOT and Freeh (they really are the same, as Freeh did what BOT said to do)
8% - Prosecutors / Old OAG
6% - Tom Corbett
0.5% - Linda Kelly and New OAG
0.2% - Fina

Please feel free to add and subtract as you wish. We can make arguments all day as follows:

1. MM is the only actual eyewitness. Everyone else is only a "hearsay witness". So, reduce MM's culpability.
2. JR is a mandatory reporter and trained. Increase his culpability.
3. I hate Republicans, so increase Tom Corbett's culpability.
4. I hate the BOT, so increase their culpability.
5. I love JoePa, so decrease his culpability.

But we are talking about the minutiae.

 

[Mixolydian]

OK, I'll settle it.

Here is the distribution of blame for JS being allowed to continue abusing kids:
97% - Jerry Sandusky.
1.2% - C/S/S
0.7% - MM
0.4% - State Cops in 1998.
0.8% - Raykovitz.
0.7% - JoePa

Here is the blame distribution for the media firestorm that wrongly abused people who were essentially bystanders:
74% - Media
13% - BOT and Freeh (they really are the same, as Freeh did what BOT said to do)
8% - Prosecutors / Old OAG
6% - Tom Corbett
0.5% - Linda Kelly and New OAG
0.2% - Fina

Please feel free to add and subtract as you wish. We can make arguments all day as follows:

1. MM is the only actual eyewitness. Everyone else is only a "hearsay witness". So, reduce MM's culpability.
2. JR is a mandatory reporter and trained. Increase his culpability.
3. I hate Republicans, so increase Tom Corbett's culpability.
4. I hate the BOT, so increase their culpability.
5. I love JoePa, so decrease his culpability.

But we are talking about the minutiae.

You are missing the point. Sandusky happened. He's a freak and it is awful for whoever are his real victims. What happened after that, when this became the Joe Paterno/Penn State scandal instead of the Sandusky/TSM scandal, is what intrigues people and generates so much discussion here.

The actual blame that has been ascribed, once you accept that Sandusky actually happened

Joe and CSS...100%

McQueary, Daddy-O, Dranov, Raykovitz, OGBOT, Corbett, Fina, Freeh, etc...0%

McQueary and Freeh actually made $20 mil between them from the scandal. God bless them.

The media is corrupt, lazy and stupid, but they had this firestorm handed to them by the lies in the GJP, the early actions and communications of the OGBOT and the hack job Freeh Report and accompanying press conference.

 

[SmithtonLion]

Joe and CSS...100%

McQueary, Daddy-O, Dranov, Raykovitz, OGBOT, Corbett, Fina, Freeh, etc...0%

The media is corrupt, lazy and stupid, but they had this firestorm handed to them by the lies in the GJP, the early actions and communications of the OGBOT and the hack job Freeh Report and accompanying press conference.

I honestly don't think I'm missing anything. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

And I'm certain that every person you listed above wanted the exact same thing - "I don't care where you point the finger, just as long as it isn't at me." That statement holds for the following people: Raykovitz, BOT, Paterno family, McQueary family, C/S/S.

There is a reason that good, honest people like JoePa make the following statement in good faith and get treated properly: "In hindsight, I wish I had done more". That statement is an example of a good man being completely honest about his feelings and self-assessment of his actions. That reason that statement destroyed him is spelled M-E-D-I-A.

In a world with intelligent media (but there are no smart journalists, as I've detailed a thousand times), Mike McQueary could have been completely honest, C/S/S could have been completely honest. BOT could have said, "Hold on here. JS is arrested. No need to go fast with our investigation. Let's talk with everyone, figure out what went wrong, and go from there."

JoePa's reputation is destroyed because of one group, and only one group - the media.

If your idea is that you're going to get JR, or Tom Corbett, or Frank Fina to take responsibility for something that they had nothing to do with, you are crazy. And why should they? Did they ask for JS? Of course not. They simply protected themselves from unfair and dishonest criticism. Just as C/S/S, MM, and the rest tried to do.

The fact that the media was able to single out JoePa and the football program does not excite me to try to re-distribute the blame after the fact.

You want to make things better? Start by holding the media accountable.

 

[Mixolydian]

I honestly don't think I'm missing anything. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

And I'm certain that every person you listed above wanted the exact same thing - "I don't care where you point the finger, just as long as it isn't at me." That statement holds for the following people: Raykovitz, BOT, Paterno family, McQueary family, C/S/S.

There is a reason that good, honest people like JoePa make the following statement in good faith and get treated properly: "In hindsight, I wish I had done more". That statement is an example of a good man being completely honest about his feelings and self-assessment of his actions. That reason that statement destroyed him is spelled M-E-D-I-A.

In a world with intelligent media (but there are no smart journalists, as I've detailed a thousand times), Mike McQueary could have been completely honest, C/S/S could have been completely honest. BOT could have said, "Hold on here. JS is arrested. No need to go fast with our investigation. Let's talk with everyone, figure out what went wrong, and go from there."

JoePa's reputation is destroyed because of one group, and only one group - the media.

If your idea is that you're going to get JR, or Tom Corbett, or Frank Fina to take responsibility for something that they had nothing to do with, you are crazy. And why should they? Did they ask for JS? Of course not. They simply protected themselves from unfair and dishonest criticism. Just as C/S/S, MM, and the rest tried to do.

The fact that the media was able to single out JoePa and the football program does not excite me to try to re-distribute the blame after the fact.

You want to make things better? Start by holding the media accountable.

Wow. I disagree with about 80% (since you like %'s) of everything you just typed. And of that 80%, I am 100% certain you are wrong.

I would parse it out but your understanding of what really happened here is at such a rudimentary level that it isn't worth it. Have a good one...

 

[SmithtonLion]

Wow. I disagree with about 80% (since you like %'s) of everything you just typed. And of that 80%, I am 100% certain you are wrong.

I would parse it out but your understanding of what really happened here is at such a rudimentary level that it isn't worth it. Have a good one...

You should point out one example where I'm wrong. No problem if I am, but as far as I've seen, we are only talking about the minutiae here. If there is some ulterior motive (other than the usual motive of "Don't point the finger at me"), I am willing to hear it.

 

[WeR0206]

I find it particularly interesting at this point how little some of you are willing to accept that maybe, just maybe it WAS the admins who screwed the pooch here. After Tim and Gary's performance in the GBS trial we still give them a pass while excoriating anyone else in this story.

They could have done nothing at all with MM's report and still not screwed the pooch. The fact that they forwarded his vague report outside of PSU to the mandatory reporters at TSM shows they went ABOVE AND BEYOND their legal requirements at the time.

IMO the only way one could say they messed up is with the benefit of hindsight, unless you want to argue the admins were the only folks who were able to spot a pillar of the community offender when countless child welfare pros missed it.

 

[Mixolydian]

You should point out one example where I'm wrong. No problem if I am, but as far as I've seen, we are only talking about the minutiae here. If there is some ulterior motive (other than the usual motive of "Don't point the finger at me"), I am willing to hear it.

You have a very mixed up notion of how this all went down in the first 9 months. As I said above...

The media is corrupt, lazy and stupid, but they had this firestorm handed to them by the lies in the GJP, the early actions and communications of the OGBOT and the hack job Freeh Report and accompanying press conference.

None of that was by accident. The media didn't make the OAG lie in the GJP. The media didn't make PSU cancel Joe's press conference on a Tuesday and fire him the next night during prime time on national television. This would have been old news in a few days or a week had they not spit the bit in the early days and turned it from a Sandusky scandal into a Joe Paterno scandal shit show. The media didn't make the BOT hire Lanny Davis to adopt a sweep it under the carpet and move on corporate strategy. The media didn't make the BOT hire Louis Freeh to write a hack job report supporting their early decisions and strategy, without ever talking to the major players or the people they had thrown under the bus.

Minutiae my ass.

And BTW, Joe didn't say "In hindsight..." as you wrongly quoted. He said "With the benefit of hindsight...". Big difference and another area where your post was wrong. Maybe 85%...

I'm out.

 

[WeR0206]

I honestly don't think I'm missing anything. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

And I'm certain that every person you listed above wanted the exact same thing - "I don't care where you point the finger, just as long as it isn't at me." That statement holds for the following people: Raykovitz, BOT, Paterno family, McQueary family, C/S/S.

There is a reason that good, honest people like JoePa make the following statement in good faith and get treated properly: "In hindsight, I wish I had done more". That statement is an example of a good man being completely honest about his feelings and self-assessment of his actions. That reason that statement destroyed him is spelled M-E-D-I-A.

In a world with intelligent media (but there are no smart journalists, as I've detailed a thousand times), Mike McQueary could have been completely honest, C/S/S could have been completely honest. BOT could have said, "Hold on here. JS is arrested. No need to go fast with our investigation. Let's talk with everyone, figure out what went wrong, and go from there."

JoePa's reputation is destroyed because of one group, and only one group - the media.

If your idea is that you're going to get JR, or Tom Corbett, or Frank Fina to take responsibility for something that they had nothing to do with, you are crazy. And why should they? Did they ask for JS? Of course not. They simply protected themselves from unfair and dishonest criticism. Just as C/S/S, MM, and the rest tried to do.

The fact that the media was able to single out JoePa and the football program does not excite me to try to re-distribute the blame after the fact.

You want to make things better? Start by holding the media accountable.

We have a current real life example at MSU that refutes what your claiming here (that its all on the media). Apparently MSU doesn't have a corrupt AG office and BOT memebers with vendettas to settle. They actually didn't throw the entire school ans culture under the bus right at the onset. Look at the night and day difference especially when you consider that MSU is MUCH more involved with Nassar since he was an employee and MSU received numerous contemporaneous complaints about him. Yet there are no torches, pitchforks, and calls for the death penalty and shutting athletics down. Hmm...

In the JS case the only reason the media had anything to run with re: PSU was bc of the actions of OGBOT and corrupt OAG. They gave the media a juicy story (JoePa and supposed criminal psu fb culture) they couldn't resist. Freeh was the cherry on top for them. If you don't recall, two psu bot members (alone with erickson) supported the results of the freeh report shortly after it's release all without full BOT reciew of the report or a vote on whether or not to ratify it.

 

[SmithtonLion]

You have a very mixed up notion of how this all went down in the first 9 months. As I said above...

None of that was by accident. The media didn't make the OAG lie in the GJP. The media didn't make PSU cancel Joe's press conference on a Tuesday and fire him the next night during prime time on national television. This would have been old news in a few days or a week had they not spit the bit in the early days and turned it from a Sandusky scandal into a Joe Paterno scandal shit show. The media didn't make the BOT hire Lanny Davis to adopt a sweep it under the carpet and move on corporate strategy. The media didn't make the BOT hire Louis Freeh to write a hack job report supporting their early decisions and strategy, without ever talking to the major players or the people they had thrown under the bus.

Minutiae my ass.

And BTW, Joe didn't say "In hindsight..." as you wrongly quoted. He said "With the benefit of hindsight...". Big difference and another area where your post was wrong. Maybe 85%...

I'm out.

I agree I have the quote wrong, but how does "in hindsight" make it any difference than "with the benefit of hindsight"? Both mean that he now wishes he had done more. Obviously, it doesn't mean that he thinks his original actions were wrong AT THE TIME he took them. So, what's the difference?

Seriously. What is the difference? Honest people know what he meant. Dishonest people will always try to make it an admission of guilty.

 

[SmithtonLion]

We have a current real life example at MSU that refutes what your claiming here (that its all on the media). Apparently MSU doesn't have a corrupt AG office and BOT memebers with vendettas to settle. They actually didn't throw the entire school ans culture under the bus right at the onset. Look at the night and day difference especially when you consider that MSU is MUCH more involved with Nassar since he was an employee and MSU received numerous contemporaneous complaints about him. Yet there are no torches, pitchforks, and calls for the death penalty and shutting athletics down. Hmm...

In the JS case the only reason the media had anything to run with re: PSU was bc of the actions of OGBOT and corrupt OAG. They gave the media a juicy story (JoePa and supposed criminal psu fb culture) they couldn't resist. Freeh was the cherry on top for them. If you don't recall, two psu bot members (alone with erickson) supported the results of the freeh report shortly after it's release all without full BOT reciew of the report or a vote on whether or not to ratify it.

View embedded media

Isn't the difference that Nassar = nobody and his victims were not young children, but rather college aged women, while Sandusky was abusing young children, and he was tied to Joe Paterno (wrongly, but you get my point)?

Trust me, you put the MSU BOT under the same microscope and they'll take the same protective actions our BOT took.

Note: Those actions are not right, they're wrong, and devoid of leadership....but that is what did, and will, happen.

 

[WeR0206]

Isn't the difference that Nassar = nobody and his victims were not young children, but rather college aged women, while Sandusky was abusing young children, and he was tied to Joe Paterno (wrongly, but you get my point)?

Trust me, you put the MSU BOT under the same microscope and they'll take the same protective actions our BOT took.

Note: Those actions are not right, they're wrong, and devoid of leadership....but that is what did, and will, happen.

Uhh, you need to read up some more on the Nassar case. He is alleged to have abused girls much younger than college athletes.

The initial media coverage of Joe was neutral and more inquisitive (see initial ganim article). It took a nose dive when his tues pc was cancelled then he was fired via late night national news conference (a move strongly implying guilt/culpability) then the PSP's noonan chimed in and away it went.

The biggest difference between psu handling and msu handling is MSU isn't assuming guilt that their own enabled nassar and they haven't yet thrown any employees under the bus like PSU immediately did. MSU is taking the "if the allegations are true he was a pillar of the community that fooled all of us" approach instead of blowing their own heads off. Fancy that.

JoePa was a big name so that did attract some attention but the dogs weren't out yet until his pc was cancelled and he was fired the next night.

 

[Mixolydian]

I agree I have the quote wrong, but how does "in hindsight" make it any difference than "with the benefit of hindsight"? Both mean that he now wishes he had done more. Obviously, it doesn't mean that he thinks his original actions were wrong AT THE TIME he took them. So, what's the difference?

Seriously. What is the difference? Honest people know what he meant. Dishonest people will always try to make it an admission of guilty.

With the benefit of hindsight makes it CRYSTAL clear he meant with the benefit of information he didn't have at the time. In hindsight is more vague. Big difference. The words in that release were heavily debated ahead of time. Read the Posnanski book. Get educated.

 

[SmithtonLion]

Uhh, you need to read up some more on the Nassar case. He is alleged to have abused girls much younger than college athletes.

The initial media coverage of Joe was neutral and more inquisitive (see initial ganim article). It took a nose dive when his tues pc was cancelled then he was fired via late night national news conference (a move strongly implying guilt/culpability) then the PSP's noonan chimed in and away it went.

The biggest difference between psu handling and msu handling is MSU isn't assuming guilt that their own enabled nassar and they haven't yet thrown any employees under the bus like PSU immediately did. MSU is taking the "if the allegations are true he was a pillar of the community that fooled all of us" approach instead of blowing their own heads off. Fancy that.

JoePa was a big name so that did attract some attention but the dogs weren't out yet until his pc was cancelled and he was fired the next night.

Tell me what I'm missing. Looks like the media absolutely preceded BOT action. I have no problem being wrong. Just show me where I am wrong.

November 5:
Investigation becomes public.

November 7:
CBSSports - Paterno didn't do enough article.
Dave Miller - Paterno, the time is up article.

November 8:
The Patriot-News of Harrisburg published a rare full-page, front-page editorial in its November 8, 2011 edition calling for the immediate resignation of Penn State President Graham Spanier; it also called for this to be Joe Paterno's last season.[104] The same day, an editorial in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette called for the resignations of both Joe Paterno and his assistant coach Mike McQueary.[105]

November 9:
Maureen Dowd: Personal foul at Penn State.

Former sports commentator Keith Olbermann called for Paterno to be immediately fired, saying that "he failed all of the kids—the kid kids and the player kids—he purported to be protecting."[102] In an editorial for the Centre Daily Times, literary critic Robert Bernard Hass, a Penn State alumnus, compared Joe Paterno's downfall to a Greek tragedy and suggested that despite Paterno's many good deeds, pride and age contributed to his failure to report the incident to police.[103]

Late November 9th:
Paterno, coming under increasing criticism and pressure to resign in the wake of the Sandusky scandal, announces that he will retire at the end of the 2011 season, when his three-year contract expires. In a statement, Paterno said, "This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

But hours after Paterno made his announcement, the Penn State Board of Trustees announces that it has fired both Paterno and school president Graham Spanier — "effective immediately," according to the board.

 

[SmithtonLion]

With the benefit of hindsight makes it CRYSTAL clear he meant with the benefit of information he didn't have at the time. In hindsight is more vague. Big difference. The words in that release were heavily debated ahead of time. Read the Posnanski book. Get educated.

But this is the problem. I think I am educated.

Look at what we just argued about - I am absolutely, unequivocally saying that Joe meant that "now that I can look back, with what I know today, I wish I had taken different action."

Somehow you're trying to make a point out of it. There is no point to be made.

If anyone says that either the correct quote OR my misquote means "Joe knew he screwed up and is admitting guilt", then that person is dishonest.

You cannot argue someone like that off their position because truth has no bearing to that person. Finding an extra word or two and trying to reason with them won't help. They have already reached their conclusion.

 

[WeR0206]

Tell me what I'm missing. Looks like the media absolutely preceded BOT action. I have no problem being wrong. Just show me where I am wrong.

November 5:
Investigation becomes public.

November 7:
CBSSports - Paterno didn't do enough article.
Dave Miller - Paterno, the time is up article.

November 8:
The Patriot-News of Harrisburg published a rare full-page, front-page editorial in its November 8, 2011 edition calling for the immediate resignation of Penn State President Graham Spanier; it also called for this to be Joe Paterno's last season.[104] The same day, an editorial in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette called for the resignations of both Joe Paterno and his assistant coach Mike McQueary.[105]

November 9:
Maureen Dowd: Personal foul at Penn State.

Former sports commentator Keith Olbermann called for Paterno to be immediately fired, saying that "he failed all of the kids—the kid kids and the player kids—he purported to be protecting."[102] In an editorial for the Centre Daily Times, literary critic Robert Bernard Hass, a Penn State alumnus, compared Joe Paterno's downfall to a Greek tragedy and suggested that despite Paterno's many good deeds, pride and age contributed to his failure to report the incident to police.[103]

Late November 9th:
Paterno, coming under increasing criticism and pressure to resign in the wake of the Sandusky scandal, announces that he will retire at the end of the 2011 season, when his three-year contract expires. In a statement, Paterno said, "This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

But hours after Paterno made his announcement, the Penn State Board of Trustees announces that it has fired both Paterno and school president Graham Spanier — "effective immediately," according to the board.

What your missing is the OAG set the fire with its false and inflammatory GJP. Then the BOT, instead of taking a neutral position on all people involved, decided to throw gas on that fire by holding a nationally televised press conference in which they threw Joe under the bus and assumed guilt on his behalf and also on behlaf of CSS and JS (none of whom had their actual trials yet). The BOT then dropped a nuke on that inferno 6 months later via freeh and the chair of our BOT agreeing with his report (see my linked youtube in previous post).

IOW, what was a small fire and some initial calls for Joe to retire at the end of the season (which could have been quelled by basic pr - see MSU) turned into a blazing inferno which called for Joe's head, death to the fb program, etc.

If you can't see the difference between the two then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[coveydidnt]

What your missing is the OAG set the fire with its false and inflammatory GJP. Then the BOT, instead of taking a neutral position on all people involved, decided to throw gas on that fire by holding a nationally televised press conference in which they threw Joe under the bus and assumed guilt on his behalf and also on behlaf of CSS and JS (none of whom had their actual trials yet). The BOT then dropped a nuke on that inferno 6 months later via freeh and the chair of our BOT agreeing with his report (see my linked youtube in previous post).

IOW, what was a small fire and some initial calls for Joe to retire at the end of the season (which could have been quelled by basic pr - see MSU) turned into a blazing inferno which called for Joe's head, death to the fb program, etc.

If you can't see the difference between the two then I don't know what to tell you.

Joe forced their hand when he made his press release. He dared them to fire him.

He could have resigned. He could have held a press conference. He could have sat out 1 week.

He and everyone else involved should have had a plan ready for exactly how to handle. He didn't, no one did.

He failed.

 

[Mixolydian]

Joe forced their hand when he made his press release. He dared them to fire him.

He could have resigned. He could have held a press conference. He could have sat out 1 week.

He and everyone else involved should have had a plan ready for exactly how to handle. He didn't, no one did.

He failed.

The BOT stopped communicating with him despite his attempts to meet with them. They forced his hand.

You failed dummy.

 

[Roxine]

You again got that wrong. Gary's memory was refreshed, not Tim's. I was there. Were you?

Linda - you're mistaken. Tim Curley was asked if Graham Spanier had helped formulate the initial 3 point plan. Tim answered "no." Tim was handed his transcript from his plea arraignment, asked to review what he said. Tim read it to himself at the judges instruction. He was asked again by the Prosecution, was Spanier part of the initial 3 point plan, Tim answered "yes." He perjured himself in open court. I was there. I think you are mis-remembering this. A review of the transcripts will help refresh your memory.

Now where ARE those transcripts for Tim and Gary....thus far I've only seen Wendy post Mike and Jack's. Anyone ever wonder....why?

 

[SmithtonLion]

Joe forced their hand when he made his press release. He dared them to fire him.

He could have resigned. He could have held a press conference. He could have sat out 1 week.

He and everyone else involved should have had a plan ready for exactly how to handle. He didn't, no one did.

He failed.

That is such a punk assed response. Honestly.

Forced their hand. Bullshit. Fear of media persecution forced their hand. As if Joe Paterno announcing that he was retiring at the end of the season forces anyone's hand.

 

[Mixolydian]

But this is the problem. I think I am educated.

Look at what we just argued about - I am absolutely, unequivocally saying that Joe meant that "now that I can look back, with what I know today, I wish I had taken different action."

Somehow you're trying to make a point out of it. There is no point to be made.

If anyone says that either the correct quote OR my misquote means "Joe knew he screwed up and is admitting guilt", then that person is dishonest.

You cannot argue someone like that off their position because truth has no bearing to that person. Finding an extra word or two and trying to reason with them won't help. They have already reached their conclusion.

Funny how almost every time that quote was used to suggest Joe was confessing, it was misquoted like that. Probably just a coincidence.

 

[WeR0206]

The BOT stopped communicating with him despite his attempts to meet with them. They forced his hand.

You failed dummy.

Exactly. To this day I remember surma saying in the PC something like "we don't know all the facts yet, all we have is what has been reported by the media" and I remember thinking to myself if that was the case then why the EFF are you holding this press conference? Shouldn't you wait until you have all the facts? But nope, apparently all surma needed was a one sided non factual GJP and some media speculation and he was good with that. What a piece of garbage surma and his cohorts are. Smh

 

[Roxine]

You have a very mixed up notion of how this all went down in the first 9 months. As I said above...

The media is corrupt, lazy and stupid, but they had this firestorm handed to them by the lies in the GJP, the early actions and communications of the OGBOT and the hack job Freeh Report and accompanying press conference.

None of that was by accident. The media didn't make the OAG lie in the GJP. The media didn't make PSU cancel Joe's press conference on a Tuesday and fire him the next night during prime time on national television. This would have been old news in a few days or a week had they not spit the bit in the early days and turned it from a Sandusky scandal into a Joe Paterno scandal shit show. The media didn't make the BOT hire Lanny Davis to adopt a sweep it under the carpet and move on corporate strategy. The media didn't make the BOT hire Louis Freeh to write a hack job report supporting their early decisions and strategy, without ever talking to the major players or the people they had thrown under the bus.

Minutiae my ass.

And BTW, Joe didn't say "In hindsight..." as you wrongly quoted. He said "With the benefit of hindsight...". Big difference and another area where your post was wrong. Maybe 85%...

I'm out.

The ACTUAL quote from his statement is:

"This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit
of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

Think about that - one of the great sorrows of his life. Everyone seems to miss that part and only "hear" what they want to hear.

 

[SmithtonLion]

Funny how almost every time that quote was used to suggest Joe was confessing, it was misquoted like that. Probably just a coincidence.

No. The quote used is: "I wish I had done more."

The quote used is not: "In hindsight, I wished I had done more."

 

[SmithtonLion]

The ACTUAL quote from his statement is:

"This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit
of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

Think about that - one of the great sorrows of his life. Everyone seems to miss that part and only "hear" what they want to hear.

The full quote is important and I agree with publishing the full quote.

That said, I think you are a dishonest commentator on the entire issue.

 

[WeR0206]

Linda - you're mistaken. Tim Curley was asked if Graham Spanier had helped formulate the initial 3 point plan. Tim answered "no." Tim was handed his transcript from his plea arraignment, asked to review what he said. Tim read it to himself at the judges instruction. He was asked again by the Prosecution, was Spanier part of the initial 3 point plan, Tim answered "yes." He perjured himself in open court. I was there. I think you are mis-remembering this. A review of the transcripts will help refresh your memory.

Now where ARE those transcripts for Tim and Gary....thus far I've only seen Wendy post Mike and Jack's. Anyone ever wonder....why?

Where are all your time stamped tweets, articles, etc calling attention to the massive failures by CYS/DPW/JR/TSM/OAG re: their failure to properly oversee JS?

We're still waiting. Surely you're eager to provide these items so you can silence all of us calling you a hypocrite not really focused on fixing the root cause - the broken child welfare system in Pa.

You said you were outraged over TSM, etc so where are your tweets, articles, etc that would show this??

I've asked you for this many times and you have yet to provide anything.

 

[Mixolydian]

Exactly. To this day I remember surma saying in the PC something like "we don't know all the facts yet, all we have is what has been reported by the media" and I remember thinking to myself if that was the case then why the EFF are you holding this press conference? Shouldn't you wait until you have all the facts? But nope, apparently all surma needed was a one sided non factual GJP and some media speculation and he was good with that. What a piece of garbage surma and his cohorts are. Smh

Surma was a horrible CEO at USX. Very poorly run company under him and his management team. The stock price spoke for itself and he was ultimately fired. Unlike a well run company that does the right thing and makes the media work for them, it's not surprising that he would do the opposite and cave to media pressure. He looked like a dear in the headlights that night. He's a full of himself asshole.

 

[coveydidnt]

The BOT stopped communicating with him despite his attempts to meet with them. They forced his hand.

You failed dummy.

They all knew for 8 months this was coming. What was Joe's plan? What was anyone's plan.

Why didn't anyone prepare?

 

[SmithtonLion]

Where are all your time stamped tweets, articles, etc calling attention to the massive failures by CYS/DPW/JR/TSM/OAG re: their failure to properly oversee JS?

We're still waiting. Surely you're eager to provide these items so you can silence all of us calling you a hypocrite not really focused on fixing the root cause - the broken child welfare system in Pa.

You said you were outraged over TSM, etc so where are your tweets, articles, etc that would show this??

I've asked you for this many times and you have yet to provide anything.

Yes. The preferential hatred and focusing only on one group disqualifies her/him as an objective, scientific commentator. Just another "advocate". Worthless.

 

[Mixolydian]

They all knew for 8 months this was coming. What was Joe's plan? What was anyone's plan.

Why didn't anyone prepare?

Joe was a football coach. He was preparing for a football season and then was preparing to retire. It wasn't his job to prepare for "this". And he certainly didn't know about the lies in the GJP that was about to come out.

 

[Roxine]

The full quote is important and I agree with publishing the full quote.

That said, I think you are a dishonest commentator on the entire issue.

Tell you what - read the transcripts when they come out. Linda says it was Schultz whose memory had to be refreshed - I know it was Curley. Then we'll see who is being "honest."