Law School: PA legal market

[Madsol]

I hear you about the number of attorneys as well. When I was admitted I was assigned an attorney ID number in the low 80,000's meaning that up until that date, in the history of attorney registrations in PA, their had only been 80,000 or so. In just 20 years the Commonwealth is now assigning attorney ID's that are 320,000 and up. Think about a minute......at a minimum there have been 240,000 attorneys admitted to the bar in the past 20 years...or 12,000 plus per year! Oversaturization!!!!

I'm not 100% sure but they may have skipped the 100 thousands, meaning they went from 99,999 to 200,000. Again, not 100% sure but I remember some time back seeing someone who graduated not long after me (ID number in the 80,000s) whose number was in the low 200,000s. Might be one explanation for the big jump in numbers.

But, certainly agree with your larger point that there are way too many lawyers.

 

[Lion84]

The days of lawyers running this country are coming to a close. Envision the day when lawyers cannot hold office in the executive or legislative branches at either federal or state level. Envision the day when the losing lawyer pays civil court costs. Envision the day when a lawyer cannot vote so long as he's practicing law. It's coming. It's a reaction to words-not-always-meaning-what-they-say whereas the working end of a gun tells no lies. Civil strife is inevitable. Google 'kulaks'. Someone's got to take the blame for everything that's gone wrong in this here country. Choose to become a plumber... and prepare accordingly.

Not for nothing but what in the are you taking about or is that Tim Foil Hat cutting off circulation to your brain. I not a Lawuer but have half a dozen friends who have Law Degrees and none of them currently practice law and some never have - kind of strange but they found the hours and lifestyle too demanding and the pressure to make partner extreme. My Attorney who does my Will and other stuff really likes what he does and wouldn't do anything else - the others who don't practice do not regret going to law school but just decided after the fact it want for them.

 

[Statewise]

The days of lawyers running this country are coming to a close. Envision the day when lawyers cannot hold office in the executive or legislative branches at either federal or state level. Envision the day when the losing lawyer pays civil court costs. Envision the day when a lawyer cannot vote so long as he's practicing law. It's coming. It's a reaction to words-not-always-meaning-what-they-say whereas the working end of a gun tells no lies. Civil strife is inevitable. Google 'kulaks'. Someone's got to take the blame for everything that's gone wrong in this here country. Choose to become a plumber... and prepare accordingly.

Cosmos, are you really Dick the Butcher?

 

[psuguy43]

Take the money from Dickinson - stipends are rare even in today's buyer's market, and leaving school with no debt from living expenses is very, very valuable.

That is what I have been thinking. I also have a side MLM business that I have built, that generates $30+k/year in residual income (though, not guaranteed), so that along with a $5k/yr stipend should be able to cover my COL in Carlisle. But, it's just so dang hard to turn down State freaking College, especially with the next 3 years of football AND hoops -- they are both going to be good programs.

Or, I could always jump ship and take the full at Drexel... but that's the same age as Penn State Law, so I don't think that that is going to happen.

 

[mjh218]

I am an attorney and my PA bar # is in the 80,000s(my CA number that I got in 2007 when I moved here is just under 250,000).

I am a trial lawyer and I love what I do. Im with a fairly large firm. I love the practice of law. I love being in a courtroom. I love being in front of a jury. On the other hand, I despise billing my time and dealing with insurance companies.

In all honesty, the $15,000 wont make a big impact in the long run. So unless you wed that cash presently, I would take it out of the equation. Figure out what is important to you and I think the answer becomes more clear. If you want a large campus, more people, sporting events etc then UP is an easy choice. If being close to Harrisburg so you can get a government internship is important that chose Carlisle.

I was exceedingly bored with Carlisle as a guy in his early 20s. Might be different if you have a significant other or you are at a different stage in your life.

 

[psuguy43]

I am an attorney and my PA bar # is in the 80,000s(my CA number that I got in 2007 when I moved here is just under 250,000).

I am a trial lawyer and I love what I do. Im with a fairly large firm. I love the practice of law. I love being in a courtroom. I love being in front of a jury. On the other hand, I despise billing my time and dealing with insurance companies.

In all honesty, the $15,000 wont make a big impact in the long run. So unless you wed that cash presently, I would take it out of the equation. Figure out what is important to you and I think the answer becomes more clear. If you want a large campus, more people, sporting events etc then UP is an easy choice. If being close to Harrisburg so you can get a government internship is important that chose Carlisle.

I was exceedingly bored with Carlisle as a guy in his early 20s. Might be different if you have a significant other or you are at a different stage in your life.

I am 30, so a bit of a different stage. I'm not sure how many young professionals exist in State College to make friends outside of law school. Granted, I'm not sure how many are in Carlisle, either. I'm past the bar scene, that epitomized my last 2 years of UG.

 

[LionJim]

This is one of the most depressing threads ever. I've had the misfortune of having to hire a lawyer and if I ever happened to see him walking past me in the street, I'd give him a hug. In a bad situation, a good lawyer is worth his weight in gold.

 

[LafayetteBear]

The days of lawyers running this country are coming to a close. Envision the day when lawyers cannot hold office in the executive or legislative branches at either federal or state level. Envision the day when the losing lawyer pays civil court costs. Envision the day when a lawyer cannot vote so long as he's practicing law. It's coming. It's a reaction to words-not-always-meaning-what-they-say whereas the working end of a gun tells no lies. Civil strife is inevitable. Google 'kulaks'. Someone's got to take the blame for everything that's gone wrong in this here country. Choose to become a plumber... and prepare accordingly.

I hope this was intended as sarcasm. Even then, it's not very funny.

 

[LighthouseGolfer]

Listen, I don't think fairgambit nor I really intended sound like we are ready to walk off the plank into the great oblivion. We are just saying, from experience, that being attorney is probably profession that is the furtherest thing from what people truely imagine it to be. People think that all attorneys are rolling in dough.....I can tell you this certainly is not the case from talking intimately with many of my colleagues. And it truely isn't all glitz and glamour.

I've been lucky to have had a career, to date, that has given me the opportunity to see the field of law from a multitude of different view points. I started out of law school working for the Commonwealth of PA. Not a ton of available jobs when I graduated and I didn't have a ton of connections. Had to make my own. I paid my own way (read as "I borrowed my own way") through law school only to come out to a job paying far less than $50K per year. Yes, many do! I was lucky to move on quickly to a big firm where I gained a ton of court room experience in high exposure cases (multi-million dollar claims). Love being in front of a jury and I pride myself at being good at it but that is not the whole story. I worked at the time for a large defense firm. I saw my family a couple hours per week and I had a young daughter. If you are all about the money, which I am not, this is a great spot for you. I highly value family, and more specifically my children. As a kid, my parents attended my sporting events and I remember that and appreciate that still today. I wanted to be there for my children. It was for this reason that about 12 years ago I left the mega-firm to hang a shingle as a solo practitioner. I'd never consider going back. It doesn't mean that I don't work my ass off, it just means I have a ton more control over when I have to work my ass off. I can adjust my schedule to go see my children's events, etc.

I think the main point we were making, is that you should make your decision knowing all the facts. Talk to a ton of people. Be sure of your decision. With that said, if you make the informed decision to enter the field of law, I wish you the best of luck and I'm sure you will do great. You will find parts of the profession very satisfying and many not so much........most likely. I, of course, welcome you to PM me any time to chat about any questions you might have.

As for your Dickinson vs. PSU dilemma.....I agree with the poster above.....$15,000 stipend is going to be almost meaningless in the big scheme of things. Carlisle is a snoozer. While you are not going to have a ton of time to do things on a daily basis in law school (BELIEVE ME), the ability to hop out of your apartment to go catch a wrestling match, women's vball match, basketball game, etc., etc. etc.......would be way too much for me to pass up.

 

[mn78psu83]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

That made me laugh out loud. Hilarious.

 

[psuguy43]

For PS Law, the sporting events ability is the major draw for me (I'm past the bar stage, don't drink much). However, I don't really think that SC has a young professional crowd around my age (30) to make friends with to get beyond the law school bubble. The law school crowd itself seemed to be filled with 23 y/o kids fresh out of UG there.

I am friends with a handful of residents up here at Brown (I don't go to Brown, just live here). Hanging out allows them to also get outside of the bubble that they are in - I wouldn't mind doing that myself. I'm not sure if Carlisle has such a crowd, but you gotta figure Hburg does, in the very least.

I'm not really looking to relive my UG years, as fun as they were.

 

[fairgambit]

This is one of the most depressing threads ever. I've had the misfortune of having to hire a lawyer and if I ever happened to see him walking past me in the street, I'd give him a hug. In a bad situation, a good lawyer is worth his weight in gold.

A good point Jim and, despite my negativity, I am exactly that, very good. You don't make it on your own for over 40 years unless you are. Many clients know my age and have asked me to keep going. Some have been with me for all those 4 decades and I feel I owe it to them. By the end of the day tomorrow I will have put in another 60 hour week. Health permitting, I will go to 75, maybe 80. Hell, if I get that far I may not quit until one day you read "100 year old attorney dies at work. A half completed bucket list was on his desk."

 

[RabidLion]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

I'm with you. I'm a recovering lawyer. Got out in my mid thirties just in time. I would never recommend law school.

 

[mjh218]

Ill give you a hint how many young professionals are in Carlisle. None outside of the law students.

Im from State College. There is definitely a young professional crowd. You wont find it at the typical college bars. But its there. It isn't anything like the young professional crowd in Philly or Pittsburgh, but it is for certain better than Carlisle.

Frankly, I don't think you can make a wrong decision. Both are gold schools. Both have benefits. The facilities are UP are much nicer than the Carlisle facilities.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[BiochemPSU]

I practice. Really like what I do. Having said that:

Law school is mostly worthless. It's a debt trap for most, another notch on the belt for professional students, and generally delayed adult time for others.

Unless you are in the top ten percent after first year and you enjoy being locked in a room to bill 7 days a week, you're going to work in a small to medium firm if you go private (where you will get locked in a room to bill 5 to 6 days a week). Wherever you work, expect 3 to 5 years of learning/babysitting/frustration. One day it will click and you'll be on your way to independent competence.

At that point, you'll have to fight for your place in the world by getting clients. People hate paying their cable co, which provides 100% entertainment for the customer. So, try getting a client to pay a high billable rate for something they didn't want to have to deal with in the first place. It's hard. Many people cut corners to get ahead. It's a street fight and it's not for the old; it's a young mans' game because the older crowd has the clients and everything to lose. By the way, law school will not have helped you with any of this.

The only "connection" I ever saw at law school was the opportunity to get in the pants of a single daughter of a named partner at a large law firm. In hindsight, every guy should have lined up to lock her down. Would have been much easier than trying to forge your own path. Robert frost can suck it.

Good luck to you sir.

 

[Peetz Pool Boy]

So, I'm trying to decide between the two PSU campuses (Dickinson and PS Law). Both are with unconditional 100% tuition scholarships, Dickinson is with an additional $15k living stipend ($5k/yr). Goal after graduation is to probably practice in PA or the surrounding area.

Knowing the legal market, is Dickinson a no-brainer in this situation? That's what my head is saying, but my heart is having a hard time turning down a return to Happy Valley (I graduated UG 7 yrs ago). The view of Beaver Stadium from their reading room in the law library is awe inspiring!

I think you're asking the wrong question(s), so I'm going to turn the table on you

1) Why, after 7 years of post-undergrad employment are you now considering "law school"?

• A "new break" from life after having made a poor choice of an undergrad degree?
• A life-long desire to "help others"?
• To get "rich"?
• A free "3-year ride" in your quest to deny "adulthood"?

2) what do you want to do as an attorney?


After having read this thread, I'm most upset about your dog. He/she deserves a better home with full-time activity and attention.

 

[psuguy43]

I think you're asking the wrong question(s), so I'm going to turn the table on you

1) Why, after 7 years of post-undergrad employment are you now considering "law school"?

• A "new break" from life after having made a poor choice of an undergrad degree?
• A life-long desire to "help others"?
• To get "rich"?
• A free "3-year ride" in your quest to deny "adulthood"?

2) what do you want to do as an attorney?


After having read this thread, I'm most upset about your dog. He/she deserves a better home with full-time activity and attention.

1) Not really any of those answers. I have been considering law schools since high school, over 10 years ago. My father is also an attorney, so it has always been there in the back of my mind,

2) Not married to any specific outcome, but potentially small-medium sized firm, Possibly disability, immigration, or educational law (I am an ESL teacher and have first-hand experience with ADA, etc... However, I also understand that you "do" whatever kind of law clients need.

 

[PSU_Nut]

For PS Law, the sporting events ability is the major draw for me (I'm past the bar stage, don't drink much). However, I don't really think that SC has a young professional crowd around my age (30) to make friends with to get beyond the law school bubble. The law school crowd itself seemed to be filled with 23 y/o kids fresh out of UG there.

I am friends with a handful of residents up here at Brown (I don't go to Brown, just live here). Hanging out allows them to also get outside of the bubble that they are in - I wouldn't mind doing that myself. I'm not sure if Carlisle has such a crowd, but you gotta figure Hburg does, in the very least.

I'm not really looking to relive my UG years, as fun as they were.

I think you would be surprised the number of young professionals in the Carlisle area. There is a very active young professional group in the town. When I moved to Carlisle in 2001 fresh out of college I would have agreed that there not much for a young professional. However since then it has changed immensely. The biggest change has been the addition of some modern rental units that attracts the YP while still having many affordable rentals. What makes it popular is a very active downtown area. There are so many independent restaurants to choose from. It not just your standard American and Italian cuisines you have every thing from Belgian, German, British, Thai, Moroccan Japanese ect. It one of the few places where the market is not dominated by chain places....partially because most are in near by Mechanicsburg area. Whenever I go out I always see groups of YP eating together. One interesting trend is a blossoming brewing industry. There are 4 current breweries/brew pubs in the town. One is expanding to open a second location with food along with another new one opening soon. While I know your not a big drinker they do offer a relaxed social atmosphere that more about being social then getting drunk. You are still close to State College (1:30 min non football and about 1:45-2 on game time depending on how early you leave). You have Harrisburg and Hershey close by for a wide variety of events. The best party for me is you have a small town feel with all the amenities of a city close by. If you want the city you have plenty close enough for a day trip Baltimore (1:30) Philly (2:00) Washington,DC (2 hr), New York (3hr) and Pittsburgh (3hr). Cumberland County is the fastest growing county in PA so there will be plenty of opportunities for you during and after law school with the Dickinson connection

I have linked the two nicest apartment communities in Carlisle. Summerbridge is currently being built but is the nicest. When completed it will feature a dog park along with walking trails. The nice part is the apartments are solar powered. I know someone who lives in them and his electric bill is $30 a month which is just transmission cost.

http://www.summerbridgeapartments.com/
http://www.sevengablescarlisle.com

 

[psuguy43]

I think you would be surprised the number of young professionals in the Carlisle area. There is a very active young professional group in the town. When I moved to Carlisle in 2001 fresh out of college I would have agreed that there not much for a young professional. However since then it has changed immensely. The biggest change has been the addition of some modern rental units that attracts the YP while still having many affordable rentals. What makes it popular is a very active downtown area. There are so many independent restaurants to choose from. It not just your standard American and Italian cuisines you have every thing from Belgian, German, British, Thai, Moroccan Japanese ect. It one of the few places where the market is not dominated by chain places....partially because most are in near by Mechanicsburg area. Whenever I go out I always see groups of YP eating together. One interesting trend is a blossoming brewing industry. There are 4 current breweries/brew pubs in the town. One is expanding to open a second location with food along with another new one opening soon. While I know your not a big drinker they do offer a relaxed social atmosphere that more about being social then getting drunk. You are still close to State College (1:30 min non football and about 1:45-2 on game time depending on how early you leave). You have Harrisburg and Hershey close by for a wide variety of events. The best party for me is you have a small town feel with all the amenities of a city close by. If you want the city you have plenty close enough for a day trip Baltimore (1:30) Philly (2:00) Washington,DC (2 hr), New York (3hr) and Pittsburgh (3hr). Cumberland County is the fastest growing county in PA so there will be plenty of opportunities for you during and after law school with the Dickinson connection

I have linked the two nicest apartment communities in Carlisle. Summerbridge is currently being built but is the nicest. When completed it will feature a dog park along with walking trails. The nice part is the apartments are solar powered. I know someone who lives in them and his electric bill is $30 a month which is just transmission cost.

http://www.summerbridgeapartments.com/
http://www.sevengablescarlisle.com

Thank you. I would like a maintenance free apt complex during my time in LS. Do you know if either one of these is within walking distance of the law school? Thank you

 

[PSU_Nut]

Thank you. I would like a maintenance free apt complex during my time in LS. Do you know if either one of these is within walking distance of the law school? Thank you

You could walk from both of them. Summerbridge is 2 miles from campus and Seven Gables is 1 mile.