Law School: PA legal market

[psuguy43]

So, I'm trying to decide between the two PSU campuses (Dickinson and PS Law). Both are with unconditional 100% tuition scholarships, Dickinson is with an additional $15k living stipend ($5k/yr). Goal after graduation is to probably practice in PA or the surrounding area.

Knowing the legal market, is Dickinson a no-brainer in this situation? That's what my head is saying, but my heart is having a hard time turning down a return to Happy Valley (I graduated UG 7 yrs ago). The view of Beaver Stadium from their reading room in the law library is awe inspiring!

 

[psu00]

So, I'm trying to decide between the two PSU campuses (Dickinson and PS Law). Both are with unconditional 100% tuition scholarships, Dickinson is with an additional $15k stipend ($5k/yr). Goal after graduation is to probably practice in PA or the surrounding area.

Knowing the legal market, is Dickinson a no-brainer in this situation? That's what my head is saying, but my heart is having a hard time turning down a return to Happy Valley (I graduated UG 7 yrs ago). The view of Beaver Stadium from their reading room in the law library is awe inspiring!

Where do you want to practice in PA? Not a lawyer, but from what I understand getting internships is better at Dickinson given it's relation to Harrisburg (state capital) verses State College. Not sure if that's still true or what the job market for lawyers is in PA now. I'm sure the lawyers here will jump in eventually.

 

[artsandletters]

Carlisle will always be less than two hours from State College. $15,000 is hard to replace.

 

[mjh218]

I went to Dickinson and I would pick UPark every single day of the week. Better ranked. Better professors. Better town.

Carlisle is a very boring place to go to school.

By the way, if you are in the top 10-15% of your class at UPark or Dickinson you will have a ton of options.

 

[LafayetteBear]

The extra $5000 per year is definitely worth something, and hard to turn down. But you only go around once, and three extra years in State College is an experience that will be with you for the rest of your life. Think of what the football season is gonna be like this Fall. Holy Shiat. Don't you wanna be in State College for THAT?!

You can get clerking jobs and do networking at either campus. They are not all that far away for purposes of occasional job interviews. (Daily commuting is a different story.) I would take University Park in a heartbeat.

 

[fairgambit]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

 

[nclion97]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

....or an orthodontist, if you like double or triple the money of a lawyer, don't mind a bit more school, and enjoy having Fridays off every week...

 

[artsandletters]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

The sound of the proper flushing of a toilet favored over the sound of the thunder of wingtips walking across a granite floor.

Tough sell.

 

[fairgambit]

The sound of the proper flushing of a toilet favored over the sound of the thunder of wingtips walking across a granite floor.
Tough sell.

Indeed it is, which is why few will heed my wisdom. In 40 years I've gotten to know hundreds of lawyers. To the extent they will talk openly about it, some are happy. Most are not. I am considered by many outside the profession to be successful, but happiness in my practice has eluded me. Looking back, I wish I had taken a different path.

 

[fairgambit]

 

[artsandletters]

Indeed it is, which is why few will heed my wisdom. In 40 years I've gotten to know hundreds of lawyers. To the extent they will talk openly about it, some are happy. Most are not. I am considered by many outside the profession to be successful, but happiness in my practice has eluded me. Looking back, I wish I had taken a different path.

The power of the perception is much greater than the reality. I was in college when seemingly everyone, outside of engineers, were considering law school. Vietnam was full blown. Did law school provide a deferment? I forget. The desperate were willing to enter the unaccredited Widener (Delaware School of Law I think it was called then) and wait for accreditation while enrolled. Law schools were flush with applicants.

There are many here that are too young to know that lawyers did not advertise, that it was considered below them and unprofessional; perhaps even unethical. Can you imagine how many pages the Yellow Books would lose if that were the case today? The result is that the over abundance of lawyers has created a litigious society. They need the work, the income.

Am I close, fair?

 

[jferretti]

Given your scholarship status I would guess you have a great chance at success in the legal world. Go with the heart, not the money. In the end you won't miss the 15K.

As for practicing, in many respects law is a "people" business and people will often disappoint you. That drives down satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. As you progress as a lawyer you must train yourself to the fact that advice is not always heeded and good intentions not always respected. I choose to focus on the good I have done for folks and the clients who have left my office after expressions of gratitude and joy. Many lawyers cite the lack of respect afforded by society. I have learned not to care as the respect I seek is from the client paying my bill and being given a good result.

Good luck with your choices.

 

[artsandletters]

Given your scholarship status I would guess you have a great chance at success in the legal world. Go with the heart, not the money. In the end you won't miss the 15K.

As for practicing, in many respects law is a "people" business and people will often disappoint you. That drives down satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. As you progress as a lawyer you must train yourself to the fact that advice is not always heeded and good intentions not always respected. I choose to focus on the good I have done for folks and the clients who have left my office after expressions of gratitude and joy. Many lawyers cite the lack of respect afforded by society. I have learned not to care as the respect I seek is from the client paying my bill and being given a good result.

Good luck with your choices.

Lawyers are people and lawyers will often disappoint you.

 

[getmyjive11]

UP and Dickenson had a nasty divorce from each other. The hate each other. IMO, Dickenson won't be part of PSU in 5 to 10 years.

 

[jferretti]

The power of the perception is much greater than the reality. I was in college when seemingly everyone, outside of engineers, were considering law school. Vietnam was full blown. Did law school provide a deferrment? I forget. The desperate were willing to enter Widener and wait for accreditation while enrolled. Law schools were flush with applicants.

There are many here that are too young to know that lawyers did not advertise, that it was considered below them and unprofessional; perhaps even unethical. Can you imagine how many pages the Yellow Books would lose if that were the case today? The result is that the over abundance of lawyers has created a litigious society. They need the work, the income.

Am I close, fair?

Lawyer advertising is a scourge and something I do only out of necessity. I would rather get clients by word of mouth, which fortunately has become my best advertising. Yes there was a glut of lawyers and many are now getting out, some prematurely relative to a normal retirement age. The profession is changing and in some respects
those who can adapt will survive.

As for being a litigious society, the number of cases and appeals being filed is steadily declining in my state and I believe almost everywhere. Beware of those still arguing that we are being overrun with lawsuits and wanting to restrict access to the courts. Those folks are often the ones most in need of unwarranted protections.

 

[jferretti]

Lawyers are people and lawyers will often disappoint you.

Can't argue with that!

 

[psuguy43]

Better ranked.

That is not true. The rankings are equal, fwiw.

 

[Madsol]

The access to Harrisburg from Carlisle is a very real benefit. Our Office of Chief Counsel routinely has interns in between their first and second years who are representing the department in real cases. Now, the interns are unpaid but the actual advocacy opportunities are invaluable and pretty much unheard of for a rising 2nd year law student. Just something to think about. Good luck.

 

[psuguy43]

Two other considerations - I will be 30 by the time we start classes this fall. When I have visited the two, PS Law seemed overrun by 23 y/o's who came to law school straight out of undergrad. Dickinson certainly seemed like an older crowd (although, PS Law had much more attractive girls, and more of them ;-)).

Also, I have an active border collie mix who can't be off leach. At PS Law, I would have to live a drive away and it would be a little more difficult (parking is also iffy at the building, especially if you are leaving midday to walk the dog and coming back). At Dickinson, I would live a short walk from the school, making it a bit easier to go back midday and take him for a walk.

FWIW, another option is a 100% unconditional ship to Drexel, but I'm thinking that isn't a great option compared to these two.

 

[fairgambit]

The power of the perception is much greater than the reality. I was in college when seemingly everyone, outside of engineers, were considering law school. Vietnam was full blown. Did law school provide a deferrment? I forget. The desperate were willing to enter Widener and wait for accreditation while enrolled. Law schools were flush with applicants.
There are many here that are too young to know that lawyers did not advertise, that it was considered below them and unprofessional; perhaps even unethical. Can you imagine how many pages the Yellow Books would lose if that were the case today? The result is that the over abundance of lawyers has created a litigious society. They need the work, the income.
Am I close, fair?

Good points.
I don't recall if law school generally was a deferment during the Vietnam war. My situation was a bit different. I left Penn State with a degree and a commission as a 2nd LT from Army ROTC. (As an aside, I did not use ROTC to avoid the draft. My draft number was above 300). I won't belabor the details, but the Army did delay my Active Duty entry so that I could attend law school, the idea being that I would become a JAG Officer (Judge Advocate General). I had to pay my own way and was subject to a call up at any time. Upon graduation from law school, the Army told me they had too many lawyers (what a surprise) and they moved me to another branch where I served my time on active duty and reserves.

I believe advertising ruined the profession. At one time people found lawyers by word of mouth. Now they find them by calling the number of a guy who stands on top of a tractor trailer.

There are far too many lawyers. I may not be exactly right on these numbers but I am close. When I started practice there were a bit over 2,500 lawyers in Allegheny County. Now there are three times that many.

Well, I need to get back to work. I am at my office today (Saturday) and I will be here tomorrow as well. As the saying goes, "the law is a jealous mistress".

 

[Nitt1300]

 

[Nitt1300]

 

[Nitt1300]

 

[LighthouseGolfer]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

'
I'm with fairgambit....Just pasted the 20 year mark for me as an attorney. The legal profession is not what it once was and quite frankly is a very miserable life much of the time. The illusion of big money, is just that, an illusion. I've had my own practice for about 15 years and the constant hassle of running people down for money is tiresome. I would caution anyone diving into the legal field head first to step back and reevaluate one last time before doing so. While plumbing probably wouldn't be my first alternative option, the veterinarian field seems to be the way to go. I read an article about a year ago that veterinarians are the earliest retiring profession. Kind of makes sense, bill human physician rates for taking care of animals but don't have to worry about those pesky reductions required by the health insurance companies.

 

[LighthouseGolfer]

Good points.
I don't recall if law school generally was a deferment during the Vietnam war. My situation was a bit different. I left Penn State with a degree and a commission as a 2nd LT from Army ROTC. (As an aside, I did not use ROTC to avoid the draft. My draft number was above 300). I won't belabor the details, but the Army did delay my Active Duty entry so that I could attend law school, the idea being that I would become a JAG Officer (Judge Advocate General). I had to pay my own way and was subject to a call up at any time. Upon graduation from law school, the Army told me they had too many lawyers (what a surprise) and they moved me to another branch where I served my time on active duty and reserves.

I believe advertising ruined the profession. At one time people found lawyers by word of mouth. Now they find them by calling the number of a guy who stands on top of a tractor trailer.

There are far too many lawyers. I may not be exactly right on these numbers but I am close. When I started practice there were a bit over 2,500 lawyers in Allegheny County. Now there are three times that many.

Well, I need to get back to work. I am at my office today (Saturday) and I will be here tomorrow as well. As the saying goes, "the law is a jealous mistress".

I hear you about the number of attorneys as well. When I was admitted I was assigned an attorney ID number in the low 80,000's meaning that up until that date, in the history of attorney registrations in PA, their had only been 80,000 or so. In just 20 years the Commonwealth is now assigning attorney ID's that are 320,000 and up. Think about a minute......at a minimum there have been 240,000 attorneys admitted to the bar in the past 20 years...or 12,000 plus per year! Oversaturization!!!!

 

[dshumbero]

I hear you about the number of attorneys as well. When I was admitted I was assigned an attorney ID number in the low 80,000's meaning that up until that date, in the history of attorney registrations in PA, their had only been 80,000 or so. In just 20 years the Commonwealth is now assigning attorney ID's that are 320,000 and up. Think about a minute......at a minimum there have been 240,000 attorneys admitted to the bar in the past 20 years...or 12,000 plus per year! Oversaturization!!!!

I had a friend (probably dead by now because he moved to Florida) whose number was like 520. That was back around 1995. Think about it. Unless you are in the top 2% of your class, forget jerking off in Pennsylvania.

 

[fairgambit]

'
I'm with fairgambit....Just pasted the 20 year mark for me as an attorney. The legal profession is not what it once was and quite frankly is a very miserable life much of the time. The illusion of big money, is just that, an illusion. I've had my own practice for about 15 years and the constant hassle of running people down for money is tiresome. I would caution anyone diving into the legal field head first to step back and reevaluate one last time before doing so. While plumbing probably wouldn't be my first alternative option, the veterinarian field seems to be the way to go. I read an article about a year ago that veterinarians are the earliest retiring profession. Kind of makes sense, bill human physician rates for taking care of animals but don't have to worry about those pesky reductions required by the health insurance companies.

I really like the veterinarian idea. My vet is always crowded, the people who work there seem very happy, and I pay top dollar to have my cat examined. I may have to add veterinary school to my bucket list.

 

[Frabjous]

'Practicing law is like being a softball coach. You must be smart enough to know how to do it,
and dumb enough to care.'
Al Kaholik, Esquire
Senior Partner
Dewey, Cheatham & Howe


P.S. become a Nurse Practitioner. 80k to start and it is pretty much shift work.

 

[fairgambit]

I hear you about the number of attorneys as well. When I was admitted I was assigned an attorney ID number in the low 80,000's meaning that up until that date, in the history of attorney registrations in PA, their had only been 80,000 or so. In just 20 years the Commonwealth is now assigning attorney ID's that are 320,000 and up. Think about a minute......at a minimum there have been 240,000 attorneys admitted to the bar in the past 20 years...or 12,000 plus per year! Oversaturization!!!!

By comparison, my number is in the 18,000 range and I have been in practice over 40 years, so it went from 18K (mine) to 80K (yours) in 20 years, and then from 80K to 320K in another 20 years, meaning the number of lawyers is quadrupling every 20 years. I knew it was bad. I didn't know it was that bad.

 

[GTACSA]

The term legal profession is a misnomer.

The practice of law is a business; the "profession" component ended with advertising.

Many clients don't listen to advice and dictate to the attorney what to do, and since its a business many attorneys are reluctant to fire clients. Clients who got fired used to be a no go; now if they pay all is well, and as a general rule attorneys no longer look out after each other.

I had a law school professor say that it's one thing to represent your client, but you don't have to be a son of a bitch about it. Those days are long gone.

 

[fairgambit]

The term legal profession is a misnomer.
The practice of law is a business; the "profession" component ended with advertising.

Many clients don't listen to advice and dictate to the attorney what to do, and since its a business many attorneys are reluctant to fire clients. Clients who got fired used to be a no go; now if they pay all is well, and as a general rule attorneys no longer look out after each other.
I had a law school professor say that it's one thing to represent your client, but you don't have to be a son of a bitch about it. Those days are long gone.

You are right. It is a business, and I was slow to understand that. The old saying "It's not the clients you take, but those you don't take that determine your success as a lawyer" is absolutely true. I came out of law school with noble aspirations and little business sense. It has haunted me ever since.

 

[Psychedelic_MackDaddy]

So, I'm trying to decide between the two PSU campuses (Dickinson and PS Law). Both are with unconditional 100% tuition scholarships, Dickinson is with an additional $15k living stipend ($5k/yr). Goal after graduation is to probably practice in PA or the surrounding area.

Knowing the legal market, is Dickinson a no-brainer in this situation? That's what my head is saying, but my heart is having a hard time turning down a return to Happy Valley (I graduated UG 7 yrs ago). The view of Beaver Stadium from their reading room in the law library is awe inspiring!

Become a florist. Chick's dig florists.

 

[Raffycorn]

Take the money from Dickinson - stipends are rare even in today's buyer's market, and leaving school with no debt from living expenses is very, very valuable.

You've probably read about the nasty divorce from Dickinson and Penn State. Dickinson alums (who are older and in positions to hire) really by large only supported Penn State because it was who their alma mater was purchased by. Now that all those alums have "their school" back, there's no reason for them to support what is now Penn State Law any longer. Penn State Law only has, what, 10 years worth of alumni? All of whom aren't late enough in their careers to hire graduates?

Go to Dickinson. I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to the new Penn State Law for a while until they figure out their identity. But with both, figure that your most likely career outcome is either government work or staying somewhere in Central PA. Neither school is too terribly marketable outside of their region in today's legal market - but that's true for pretty much every school outside of the top 20 or so.

 

[MoyerJones]

I have been practicing for quite a long time - not as long as some of the other learned posters. I can honestly tell you that I absolutely love what I do.

If you only take on $15-30K in debt for law school (e.g. room, books, etc) you’ll be fine;

If one school is far better in a specific area of law in which you want to practice (i.e. giving you the tools to learn that field and providing you with job connections), that should be the most important factor for you.

When you get to law school, stay far away from two types of people: (1) complainers – these are the people who have the exact same course work as you (because you’re all in the same curriculum for a large part of law school) but feel the need to constantly complain about how hard their life is and how much work they have to do. (2) people who constantly want to talk about everything they are doing to prepare for whatever assignment, exam, class, text, etc. Trust me when I tell you that you will come across a lot of people like this in law school. You will be in a bubble, unlike anything you experienced at UP as an UG, because everyone is on the same exact boat. You want to make relationships with people who are focused on accomplishing things - not just talking about doing things. Although this is probably life advice, it is uniquely fitting for the law school environment.

Be very skeptical of any professor who tells you that business or “making money” should have no part in the practice of law. These profs are either very inexperienced in the part of the legal profession that required actually handling and representing clients, and paying the light bill. Law school does not focus hard enough on the business end of practicing. In my opinion, law schools should be preparing each and every student to hang a shingle on day 1 and start representing clients immediately on their own.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MoyerJones]

Ha! So many other attys discussing the business end of practicing. It's so incredibly true.

 

[BOSCO2]

I really like the veterinarian idea. My vet is always crowded, the people who work there seem very happy, and I pay top dollar to have my cat examined. I may have to add veterinary school to my bucket list.

Fair, you're a lawyer AND a cat person. Steeerike two!!!

 

[LafayetteBear]

Indeed it is, which is why few will heed my wisdom. In 40 years I've gotten to know hundreds of lawyers. To the extent they will talk openly about it, some are happy. Most are not. I am considered by many outside the profession to be successful, but happiness in my practice has eluded me. Looking back, I wish I had taken a different path.

psuguy: Don't let Gambit's continual laments about the legal profession dissuade you. He speaks for himself, as do I. I am an attorney, and have greatly enjoyed my career as a lawyer. I do not regret it at all. It has been both intellectually stimulating and financially rewarding for me.

 

[nitanee123]

Dental school is your answer. Work 3 1/2 days a week. Low malpractice risk. And if you are ambitious, you can continue with school and become an orthodontist or periodontist. My bro-in-law is a periodontist and does implants. He has his own office but also moonlights for a large dental practice once or twice a month. He makes $5K per day just from this side gig.

 

[Cosmos]

Speaking as a PA lawyer with over 40 years in practice, there is always option three. Become a plumber. You will likely be happier, make more money, and have more respect in your community. No, I am not kidding.

The days of lawyers running this country are coming to a close. Envision the day when lawyers cannot hold office in the executive or legislative branches at either federal or state level. Envision the day when the losing lawyer pays civil court costs. Envision the day when a lawyer cannot vote so long as he's practicing law. It's coming. It's a reaction to words-not-always-meaning-what-they-say whereas the working end of a gun tells no lies. Civil strife is inevitable. Google 'kulaks'. Someone's got to take the blame for everything that's gone wrong in this here country. Choose to become a plumber... and prepare accordingly.

 

[fairgambit]

psuguy: Don't let Gambit's continual laments about the legal profession dissuade you. He speaks for himself, as do I. I am an attorney, and have greatly enjoyed my career as a lawyer. I do not regret it at all. It has been both intellectually stimulating and financially rewarding for me.

I agree, although I also echo the sentiments of other lawyers I know well. LighthouseGolfer (above) apparently has had a similar experience: "The legal profession is not what it once was and quite frankly is a very miserable life much of the time."
Right now I am pursuing some long delayed dreams of mine (much of the delay due to my law practice) and so I can fully relate to someone pursing their dream of being a lawyer. My objective is simply to show that the practice of law is not always what some outside the profession believe it to be. There are hundreds of articles online dealing with unhappy and depressed lawyers, but I base my opinions on 40 years of experience as a solo lawyer, as well as scores of discussions with lawyers from firms, big and small, over those 4 decades. Last week I spoke with a partner (age 50 or so) in a medium sized Pittsburgh firm who told me he is burned out and is retiring to open a restaurant (a dream of his).
Are there happy lawyers? Of course, and so hope the OP will be the next LafayetteBear and love the profession. I wish him the best.