JF and Sanctions
- Thread starter donprimosic
- Start date
He "ignored" the offensive line because he only had a limited number of scholarships.....and a lot more leaks to try and plug.
No way he could have covered all the needs.....simply not possible....so he triaged and emphasized getting in some DB and WR (when he took over, there were FOUR scholarship DBs on the roster, and IIRC 19 offensive linemen) but it was "robbing Peter to pay Paul"....and was bound to become a huge problem one way or the other.
It is (was) what it is (was)....and its gonna' take a few years - until 2018 at least - until it can be completely rectified.
I've never seen a single post claiming that the sanctions had no effect.
Everybody realizes the the sanctions were going to make it difficult to compete with the top teams. They don't think the sanctions are an excuse for struggling to beat teams like Army & Maryland. Our bad recruiting classes during the sanction years were still ranked higher than teams like Temple and Northwestern.
Who both had 10 wins this season. Yes, we are not used to losing to Temple. Nor should we get used to it. But they had a good team this year.
This season the only teams we lost to had at least 9 wins--most had 10 (all but Michigan). We beat one 10 win team. That's an improvement over all three of the previous years, where we lost to some bad teams record-wise.
The truth is that it doesn't matter how much talent you have if you do not have a line. And that won't get completely fixed next season either. If Hack leaves, a more mobile QB will help. Some.
Temple plays in the AAC. NW plays in the western conference so they didn't have to play OSU or MSU. They got blown out by Iowa and Michigan. I think PSU would have had at least 9 wins if we played their schedules.
Temple's last 4 recruiting classes were ranked 77th, 85th, 59th, and 73rd. NW's last 4 recruiting classes were ranked 61st, 55th, 68th, and 55th. Compare that to PSU's last 4 classes ranked 51st, 43rd, 24th, and 15th. I'd say we should still have the edge.
Of course recruiting doesn't guarantee success. It's possible that our guys were overrated but it's also possible that they haven't been coached well. It's difficult to say, but you can't argue that Temple has higher rated recruits, even on the OL.
I agree that the OL is a problem but I don't think it's the whole problem. The play calling was suspect. Not a lot of quick developing plays, Hack taking too long, WR separation, time out problems, etc. I guess that's why Donovan is gone. How much was Rhane & Hand? Will those guys even stay under a new OC?
I think the OL will be slightly better next year because of experience and added depth. The problem is Beh, Sorrell, and Wright had weaker offer lists than our current starters. I don't know how long it will take for kids like Bates, Gonzalez, and Jenkins to be ready.
Again, if you don't have the line, it often doesn't matter how good you are elsewhere. And lines take time to develop. Plus, there was a numbers game. We had good classes on quality but not quantity. No matter how good your recruiting is, some kids just won't make it. That's particularly true on the line. The more you can bring in, the better odds you have. And if we had to convert d-linemen to O-linemen, that indicates we simply didn't have enough bodies. Temple did, and they have a lot of seniors on this team. Our talent is younger--and sometimes "age and treachery beats youth and inexperience".... That happened this year.
I agree with all of that, but the recruiting rankings take both quantity and quality into consideration. Our top 7 OL this year were 1 senior (Mangiro), 4 juniors (Dowrey, Gaia, Laurent, Palmer), and 2 RS sophomores (Nelson & Mahon). I hoped that this would have been good enough to become a middle of the road OL. Certainly nothing like the big boys have but also not at the bottom of the B1G.
I hoped that an average OL combined with talented WRs, RB, and an NFL QB would have done better than 13th in the B1G total offense.
You're stuck on this point. The O-line wasn't good. It lacked talent and depth. Can we move on?
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Yeah, but those programs had one or both of the following: senior leadership (Temple this year), and consistent coaching (Northwestern every year). CJF was in year two and fielded one of if not the youngest teams in CFB. That also matters. And recruiting class ranking do not account for attrition. For fun, I challenge you to go back and look at our classes from about 2006 - you will be shocked at the names you do not recognize (despite their decent rankings). Remember Don'tae Pannell? Remember A.J. Price? Remember Mike Farrell? Remember Derrick Thomas? Darrell Givens? The list goes on, and on, and on.....
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
If recruiting rankings always equaled wins Texas and USC would never lose.
Vanderbilt's recruiting rankings when Franklin was there were 26, 48 and 52 and he had back to back 9 win seasons...I would say he can coach talent.
We've been through this. I challenge posters when they act like we had no talent, depth, or experience. Our guys averaged 3*, we had 7 that played regularly, and all had at least 3 years experience. It's not like we were limited to five 2* underclassmen.
The OL was definitely hurt by sanctions but not bottom of the barrel by any means. It's fair to blame the sanctions for a lot of things, just not everything.
First, you take recruiting ranking from 4 years ago like they are some kind of gospel. They may tell you something, but they were evaluating prospects that are now older and different.
PSU had very few recruited OL during the 2011-2013 classes that remained with the team, and guys like Dowrey and Gaia were put on the DL for a reason. Other schools had a pool of recruited O-linemen that was MUCH larger from which to build an O-line. And O-line is a notoriously difficult position to handicap when recruiting high school kids. So, other schools may have had some 2-star or 3-star O-Line prospects (or even guys that started at other positions, like TE) who developed into good O-linemen. But PSU had a MUCH less chance of this since the pool was so few.
It's very hard to make up for those shortcomings when developing an O-line for 2014 and 2015. There was no depth, and injuries, which did happen, were very hard to overcome. The recruiting classes of 2014 and 2015 did not figure in the 2015 Offensive Line, and that is not unusual.
When looking at talent, experience, and numbers, PSU had very little to work with on the O-line. It's not fun to see the QB under pressure regularly or an inside running game that can't develop because of no room to run, but that's what happened.
I'm not sure why you continually hammer away on this issue --- what is it you want somebody to say?......yeah, we really sucked because of coaching?
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Another thing to consider when looking at recruiting rankings is the number of guys who absolutely did not pan out, didn't play, or never made it to Penn State. Here's a trip down memory lane...
Class of 2009
DB Derrick Thomas - 4* - Did he ever play a down?
DB Darrell Givens - 4* - I don't think he ever made it to campus.
WR Justin Brown - 4* - Transferred.
QB Kevin Newsome - 4* - Quit football.
The OL in this class - 4* Eric Shrive, 3* Nate Cadogan (can't recall him playing at all), 3* Ty Howle, 3* Adam Gress, 2* Mark Arcidiacono, 2* John Urschel, 2* Frank Figueroa.
Class of 2010
QB Rob Bolden - 4* - Transferred.
TE/DE Kyle Baublitz - 4* - Quit football.
QB Paul Jones - 4* - Transferred (highest rated recruit in our 2010 class per Rivals).
ATH Alex Kenney - 4* - Transferred (caught 24 passes for Penn State).
OL Thomas Ricketts - 4* - Transferred to Pitt.
DE Dakota Royer - 4* - Quit football.
OL - Khamrone Kholb - 3* - Did he ever play?
OL - Luke Graham - 3* - Same as above.
Points are a) recruiting class rankings don't mean much when your top recruits never see the field, and b) we were having big recruiting problems prior to 2012.
Yep....we had "7 that played regularly"...and those 7 were the entirety of the OL roster (aside from the freshmen). And that is the most important issue here...and if you don't get that there is no way to educate you.
Of those 7:
One was a JuCo who just walked on to campus
One was hurt most of the year....and another was in and out of the lineup and rarely 100%
Two were defensive linemen moved over to provide some warm bodies
That leaves:
a relatively highly regarded recruit who is now a Sophomore
a "two-star" late addition to one of the "sanction" recruiting classes
That is it. And ALL Of them had to play. HAD TO.
Now, look at - for instance - a decent OL from recent years, the 2013 PSU offensive line.
Yes, it included some relatively unheralded recruits:
John Urschel, Adam Gress, Ty Howle
and some relatively highly regarded ones:
Miles Diffenbach, Donovan Smith, and Gary Gilliam
But there were a dozen offensive linemen on the roster who DIDN'T play...the staff was able to weed through the pile and pick out the best options - an option that has not been available in 2014 and 2015.
How would an offensive line have looked in 2013 if even 1/2 of the following guys were starting (by default)
Frank Figueroa, Mark Arcidiocono. Eric Shrive, Khamrone Kolb, and Ryan Nowicki? (there is a reason even most Penn State fans wouldn't recognize those names
)Because that is exactly the situation that PSU has faced over the last two years. EVERY healthy (and even some not-completely-healthy) body on the offensive line has been out there trying to block B1G front sevens.
Now...either you get it
or
You are hopeless
or
You are conflicted
So no point to wasting any more time.
I think the sanctions had a big impact but the problem was bigger than that. Coaches and players must also take some responsibility.
Instead of arguing let's switch it up. What's your outlook for next year's OL?
Seniors: Dowrey, Gaia, Laurent, Palmer
RS Juniors: Mahon, Nelson
RS Sophomores: Beh, Brosnan, Sorrell, Wright
RS Freshmen: Bates, Gonzalez, Jenkins
True Freshmen: Menet, Fries, McGovern, Gellerstedt
Obviously still hurt a bit by sanctions (not enough juniors) but 17 kids to pick from. Where do you think this group should rank in the BiG?
Top 25%?
Top 50%?
Bottom 25%?
I'll assume, that the portion of your post in boldface indicates that you HAVE seen the light
So, that said, I will entertain your question:
Better than 2014 or 2015....but still bottom 1/3 (without reviewing each programs roster in depth, lets say somewhere around 10th out of 14)
At least 6 of the 8 best prospects will be FR or RS FR, and probably a year or two (at least) away from filtering to the upper levels of the depth chart (which, thanks goodness, will at least have a "2-deep" for the first time in three years)
If, by the time the 2015 and 2016 (the first classes that CJF was able to recruit fully) are 3rd year or later (which would mean 2018 season), the offensive line isn't "good" I will be fully in agreement that the development is sub-par.
If the Bates/Gonzalez/Jenkins/Menet/Fries/McGovern/Gellerstadt group can't be pieced together into a solid offensive line by the time they are 3rd year+.....that would be a problem.
Until then.....hope for the best, and if a couple guys develop ahead of schedule, and the coaches do a nice job, we may see "OK" before then.
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We had 7 and they had 15. Our 7 included a first year Juco from Lacawanna Community College, 2 DTs converted to OL and a couple other guys who were pushed into the lineup early.
Bottom 25% right now. Most of the talent you listed is still in high school or FRESHMAN. Want to list OSU's, MSU, UM and NOtre Dame's OL and tell us which team has more talent in their junior and senior classes.
I never said anything about beating teams like OSU. I'm just hoping we can beat Pitt next year. Our recruiting classes have been much better overall but they might have an edge on the OL, primarily due to D. Johnson. FWIW they started a freshman this year (O'Niel).
Another new graduate from the University of Cory Giger.
I believe that miko would give Corey a run for his money.....
Another new graduate from the University of Cory Giger.
It's clear when you watch the games from an unbiased POV. As a fan, you are hoping that JF gets better yet you know deep down he's a poor coach. Also he's pretty bad at player development as evidenced by the regression of the Hack. BobO was a much better coach. Not even a comparison really.
You keep hoping that, maybe your wish will come true. What about the progression of players like Barkley, Nassib, Godwin, etc. Hack's regression started the day MRob left the field.
Sure, and Pitt's journeyman QB had a higher QB rating, better TD/INT ratio, more yards per attempt and overall passer rating. Hack has 236 more passing yards though, so he did better there. Hack was the QB that BOB built, but Franklin may have dismantled. 2015 was clearly his worse year. Hope Hack goes to the NFL to preserve what skills he has left.
Not really. I think the hope is yours and the fan base. Unbiased people can see what JF is.
"I woulda' kicked Franklin's ass. MRS Franklin, that is."
"I hope Jimmy has to use the turlet....'cause I just left him a big grumbly, and I din't even flush. N'at."
"What you didn't know was this, as I was walking in the front door - I was already looking for the back door."
"Remember our deal....I get to leave first"
"I wish I could coach against him. Jimmy Fraknlin would kick my ass so bad, maybe it would make me spell right."
Unbiased people who know the sport and get paid to follow it for a living think he's an outstanding coach. He won at Vanderbilt...Vanderbilt! And as soon as he left, they went back to crap. That's not a coincidence.
Hack was the qb that MRob built. Go back and look at his freshman season...same mistakes, same bad reads, but he had a better OLine so he didn't get sacked as much and he had MRob to bail him out. MRob caught 40% of the passes that year. Do you really follow PSU that closely that you can argue with someone who's followed the team closely for 40 years? Oh wait, that's right, you're a Pitt fan, you watch nothing but Penn State.
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