ha! you can get a chevy Bolt for around $25k right now. The MSRP is ~ $33k. Why the drop? The $7500 tax credit ran out. The point being that the govt was giving money to GM, not you or me. As you said, the way the system works.
I test drove a VW ID.4 this weekend
- Thread starter Obliviax
- Start date
I think your decimals are in the wrong place.
Given that tractor trailers do almost all of the damage, why don’t we just toll all interstates and make them pay for the bulk of the repairs? Seems more fair than trying to milk $600 out of every EV (that do a couple bucks worth of actual damage per year).
my answer? Because they have lobbyists, unions and make considerable campaign contributions.
Don't know Obliv, at 5-11, 260 lbs of visceral fat
Not much room for my knees and belly
Ultimately we pay anyway in higher shipping costs. But at least the funding is coming from the right pipeline.
Why not you too?Don't know Obliv, at 5-11, 260 lbs of visceral fat
Not much room for my knees and belly
https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/threads/ot-i’m-gonna-lose-25-pounds-by-june.286591/
A study by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO)
Vehicle Weight and Road Damage
admin December 2, 2009 @vabikeHeavy trucks obviously cause more road damage than cars, but how much more? According to a GAO study, Excessive Truck Weight: An Expensive Burden We Can No Longer Afford, road damage from one 18-wheeler is equivalent to 9600 cars (p.23 of study, p.36 of PDF).
The study assumed a fully loaded tractor-trailer at 80,000 pounds, and a typical passenger car at 4,000 pounds. That’s 20 times difference in weight, but the wear and tear caused by the truck is exponentially greater.
Food for thought: a bicycle and rider at 200 pounds is the same 20 times less heavy than a 4000 pound passenger car. Similarly, the wear and tear caused by that bike and rider would be exponentially less than a passenger car’s.
Virginia has already figured out that it’s cheaper to move trucks off our highways and onto trains, than to support those trucks on our roads. Let’s also think about getting motorists out of their cars. Wide shoulders, wide outer lanes and bike lanes, and off-road paths and trails for bicyclists may seem like extra expense, but they’re cheaper than supporting the car trips they can eliminate.
Agreed. And with e-bikes becoming better and more popular, it makes sense to improve infrastructure to support their use -- including lanes on roads and better parking facilities.
maybe...there is fear that the infrastructure investment for EVs will kill an also promising technology; Hydrogen. IMSA is going to have a hydrogen division next year and Toyota is putting a lot of money into it. While hydrogen has its problems, it is much more like a normal gas car of today. You drive in and fill up. Toyota Mirai is about $50k.
Maybe a hybrid possibility....powered by hydrogen & electric 👨🎓maybe...there is fear that the infrastructure investment for EVs will kill an also promising technology; Hydrogen. IMSA is going to have a hydrogen division next year and Toyota is putting a lot of money into it. While hydrogen has its problems, it is much more like a normal gas car of today. You drive in and fill up. Toyota Mirai is about $50k.
Not to fear about charging the battery....China has this figured out. Swapping the batteries in three minutes
Swap shops
There are around 5 million electric vehicles on the roads, and sales have been rising strongly. This is at best only around 0.5% of the global total, though still in a different league to hydrogen, which had achieved around 7,500 car sales worldwide by the end of 2019.
Hydrogen still has very few refuelling stations and building them is hardly going to be a priority during the coronavirus pandemic, yet enthusiasts for the longer term point to several benefits over electric vehicles: drivers can refuel much more quickly and drive much further per “tank”. Like me, many people remain reluctant to buy an electric car for these reasons.
China, with electric vehicle sales of more than one million a year, is demonstrating how these issues can be addressed. The infrastructure is being built for owners to be able to drive into forecourts and swap batteries quickly. NIO, the Shanghai-based car manufacturer, claims a three-minute swap time at these stations.
China is planning to build a large number of them. BJEV, the electric-car subsidiary of motor manufacturer BAIC, is investing €1.3 billion (£1.2 billion) to build 3,000 battery charging stations across the country in the next couple of years.
Not only is this an answer to the “range anxiety” of prospective electric car owners, it also addresses their high cost. Batteries make up about 25% of the average sale price of electric vehicles, which is still some way higher than petrol or diesel equivalents.
By using the swap concept, the battery could be rented, with part of the swap cost being a fee for rental. That would reduce the purchase cost and incentivise public uptake. The swap batteries could also be charged using surplus renewable electricity – a huge environmental positive.
Admittedly, this concept would require a degree of standardisation in battery technology that may not be to the liking of European car manufacturers. The fact that battery technology could soon make it possible to power cars for a million miles might make the business model more attractive.
It may not be workable with heavier vehicles such as vans or trucks, since they need very big batteries. Here, hydrogen may indeed come out on top – as BloombergNEF predicted in its recent report.
I have heard about swapping batteries before but it also comes with issues. As mentioned, standardization. That’s a big issue. Plus, the swap will have to include a prorated cost of the battery. Say a battery lasts five years and replacement costs are around ten grand. So when you swap a battery, they must charge some percentage for the battery itself. Plus labor, plus the actual electric charge.Not to fear about charging the battery....China has this figured out. Swapping the batteries in three minutes
Swap shops
There are around 5 million electric vehicles on the roads, and sales have been rising strongly. This is at best only around 0.5% of the global total, though still in a different league to hydrogen, which had achieved around 7,500 car sales worldwide by the end of 2019.
Hydrogen still has very few refuelling stations and building them is hardly going to be a priority during the coronavirus pandemic, yet enthusiasts for the longer term point to several benefits over electric vehicles: drivers can refuel much more quickly and drive much further per “tank”. Like me, many people remain reluctant to buy an electric car for these reasons.
China, with electric vehicle sales of more than one million a year, is demonstrating how these issues can be addressed. The infrastructure is being built for owners to be able to drive into forecourts and swap batteries quickly. NIO, the Shanghai-based car manufacturer, claims a three-minute swap time at these stations.
China is planning to build a large number of them. BJEV, the electric-car subsidiary of motor manufacturer BAIC, is investing €1.3 billion (£1.2 billion) to build 3,000 battery charging stations across the country in the next couple of years.
Not only is this an answer to the “range anxiety” of prospective electric car owners, it also addresses their high cost. Batteries make up about 25% of the average sale price of electric vehicles, which is still some way higher than petrol or diesel equivalents.
By using the swap concept, the battery could be rented, with part of the swap cost being a fee for rental. That would reduce the purchase cost and incentivise public uptake. The swap batteries could also be charged using surplus renewable electricity – a huge environmental positive.
Admittedly, this concept would require a degree of standardisation in battery technology that may not be to the liking of European car manufacturers. The fact that battery technology could soon make it possible to power cars for a million miles might make the business model more attractive.
It may not be workable with heavier vehicles such as vans or trucks, since they need very big batteries. Here, hydrogen may indeed come out on top – as BloombergNEF predicted in its recent report.
They would also calculate in a certain number of failed batteries........some brought in bad and some that fail after installation. No one will be willing to swap batteries unless the new one is warranted. Failing to calculate in the life of the battery will incentivize people to charge at home for a couple years then go get it swapped out so they end up with newer battery.
Another problem is having to do so several times a week. What a hassle. Guess you could just do swaps when on road trips but that is another way of getting a newer battery when yours gets old.
The issue for me is driving distance and speed. How far can you drive on a single charge? Please don’t say 4 hours @ 55mph because it is impossible to drive on any US highway and do 55mph. The moment you accelerate and increase your speed to 70-75 mph the charge is reduced to 2.0hrs. Consider all the hidden cost. A replacement battery (5k to 8k)? The adapters to charge the vehicle (1k) and how much will your utility bill go up?
I still believe a vehicle with a combustion engine that gets between 38-40 mph is profoundly more efficient and practical.
I still believe a vehicle with a combustion engine that gets between 38-40 mph is profoundly more efficient and practical.
I've looked at this several times and there is no way to cost-justify an electric car over a normal car today. But there are benefits (acceleration, quiet, environment, ongoing software upgrades as best practices are understood, not having to be dependent on gas prices/availability and the simple cool factor). Many feel that the life will be longer as there are far fewer moving parts (engine and transmission). Time will tell on that.
To your point on driving distance, I believe the tests are done on a mix of highway and city driving. Most of the review videos I've seen are getting the ID4s published range and more. However, as someone stated, they appear to be done with "inside the bell curve" weather. In other words, I don't know if it has been tested in ten degrees or 110 degrees. But, of course, there will be a ton of variables (acceleration, speed, wind, road conditions, heat, AC, lighting, etc.). I don't think the testing methodology is much different than them posting MPG estimates today.
But lets say you drive to work and back every night. You have a long commute, 30 miles out and 30 miles back which is 60 miles. When you get home you plug your car in for 10 hours with a 240 32 amp outlet (about $315 on Amazon). You will be 100% fully charged. That means never having to stop for gas or an oil change. Ever.
The only real issue I see is long drives for biz or pleasure. If I wanted to go to PSU to see a game, it is 210 miles. So I don't have a lot of room to spare. I'd probably need to plug in for fifteen minutes to feel comfortable and not go below 50 miles of charge/range. Then, I'd have to plug in someplace in State College for 40 minutes at a super charger before heading home. And again, before I get home, have to top off again. If the supercharger is convenient, no problem. But in most cases, I'd have to get a burger/fries and sit there while it charges. Someone posted that they saw a 6 hour gas car trip be closer to 7 in an EV.
Now, factor that four times a year trip against stopping for gas once a week on your way to or from work. Again, as someone posted, it may not be "worse" just "different". You are swapping one inconvenience in for another.
Just a point of clarification on the six vs seven hour trip: 6 hours in a gas car assumes no stops along the way. When I used to drive more (and was younger and didn’t have kids) 6 hours nonstop was no problem. These days, on a six hour trip I’d make at least one stop to stretch my legs, grab a snack or use the restroom. Figure a 15-20 stop brings the delta down to 40-45 minutes. Definitely longer, but if you’re traveling with others (especially kids), breaking up the trip a bit more might not be the worst thing.
Until range and feasibility is improved significantly it’s a risky investment. The moment they produce an affordable vehicle that can travel 6 hours at 75mph combined with reliability you can basically kiss the combustion engine goodbye. But I predict that’s a decade away.
Two or three years ago I read that British and German engineers were making tremendous strides towards producing a reliable turbine-steam engine car. The were able to run the car continuously for 15 straight hours with a top end of 125mph. No, not ready for production but a move in the right direction.
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I believe there are parking garages downtown, and the nittany parking garage on campus, with chargers now so you'd want to just park at one of those on arrival and have the car fully charged waiting for you after the game.
i see the F150 was released yesterday and starting at $40k. (and still has the $7500 rebate if it is still there by next year's delivery date) with an advertised range of 300. What is unique is that similarly equipped gas F150s are more expensive to buy.
Why does the front end remind me of a storm trooper...and was simply blown away. As I understand it, VW got caught lying about deisel engine performance. They got fined billions and had to commit to some R&D. This is the result. I also understand that VW is trying to restore their name and establish themselves as the EV go-to car. This car comes in at ~ $42k but when you apply the $7500 tax credit is $35k out of pocket. Compare that to the prices for the Ford Mach E (which isn't a mustang, its an SUV) or Testla and it is far lower in price.
I may have to buy one.
- while I've driven some EV's, this was by far the quietest
- Today it is RWD with AWD coming but with so much computer assist, over 4,500 lbs and great balance, is AWD needed?
- 0-60 lags versus a tesla, but it was very comfortable and fine. I mean, how often do you need to blow someone off the line of scrimmage in a car?
- the roof is all glass. can't put it up but it apparently adds to headroom.
- Great room in the front and back and still has plenty of storage
- Seems like just the right video screen. The Mach E and Tesla seem like overkill to me.
- The balance and safety features of this car are really great.
- it has a really compact front and, where the motor is, which makes the driver feel like they are in a much smaller vehcle
- the turning radius is nuts. You can do a U-turn on a normal two-lane road using the shoulder.
Thoughts?
i see the F150 was released yesterday and starting at $40k. (and still has the $7500 rebate if it is still there by next year's delivery date) with an advertised range of 300. What is unique is that similarly equipped gas F150s are more expensive to buy.
Meister, I do understand the current issues with the EV's......throwing in the thread a little satire for the EV enthusiast. Eventually, this may be a great product.
Based on the specs the lightning is going to be more niche (at least in the current version) as there are a number of truck things you can’t really do with it. Probably more appealing to people who own trucks even though they don’t actually need them or those who only use the bed to get stuff from Home Depot.
Agreed. It evolves. This methodology is in practice with BBQ gas containers. when your gas runs out, you swap the empty one out for a full one and pay X. I assume the probability of getting a bad can is factored into the cost (like retailers factor in shop lifting into the price for those that buy). So you can swap out a battery or fuel cell at locations around the nation (knowing weight is going to be an issue)
Car and Driver pretty much trashed the electric F-150 after its road tests.
We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
Ford promises EPA ratings of 230 and 300 miles, but towing and hauling near the claimed 10,000-pound maximum is going to seriously cut into those figures.
To be fair, they are trashing the 230/300 range estimates at full towing capacity. These estimates are NOT for towing. They are suggesting it will be more like 100 or less at full capacity (10,000 lbs). So, its a use case issue. If you tow 30 miles, no problem. If you don't tow at all, no problem. If you tow more than 50 miles one way, problem.Car and Driver pretty much trashed the electric F-150 after its road tests.
We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
Ford promises EPA ratings of 230 and 300 miles, but towing and hauling near the claimed 10,000-pound maximum is going to seriously cut into those figures.www.caranddriver.com
A Cincinnati Bengals fan? Agreed, that's a bad idea.Don’t be this guy:
They also note that at highway speeds with a normal load you're not getting close to 300, either.
yep...only makes sense. You won't get the rated MPG with a gas vehicle either (but to a far lesser level of impact). It only stands to reason.
As a poster said, everyone needs to know the plusses and minuses before investing. It isn't better or worse. And it isn't always better or worse. It is situationally different; a new paradigm. Choice should be made with understanding of the environment in which you expect to drive.
I'm also age 72 and reading this thread got me thinking about an EV. Seems like it might be a neat toy. It could be an efficient way to get back and forth to work. My commute is about 30 miles RT so charging should not be an issue. However, I'm confused about charging on trips. Let's say I have an EV with a range of 300 miles and I want to go 400 miles. I find out that about 250 miles away there is a charging station. So I travel to the charging station and need to charge the EV to continue the trip. If I have a level 2 charging system then does it take 2.5 hours to charge the EV to continue my trip? Isn't there normally a queue at the charging station? If I have to sit and wait my turn couldn't I end up waiting for many hours just to begin my 2.5 hour charge? How is an EV ever useful for any travel beyond local commutes?
A couple of thoughts here:
- You don't have to "fill-er-up" you only need to charge as much as you need to get to your endpoint
- Most cars can utilize level 3 which will take a half-hour to 45 minutes
- Level twos do 12 to 60 miles per hour of recharge (not "miles per hour" like the speed of a car)
- most EV's have a charger locator option so, on a trip, you can locate the chargers you prefer along your route through the car's GPS system
- It's all about the "Amps". You have to make sure the car will accept a higher level of amperage and find a charger that can supply that level.
- Even when you get to your destination, you'll have to charge your car so stopping at somebody's house who does not have a 220, 36 amp charger isn't going to help much. A 120 charger only does 4 to 5 mile per hour of charge. Ten hours is 40 to 50 miles.
- to me, if someone does long trips, they almost have to use a gas vehicle (second car or rent one). I am looking at having one car that is an EV and the other gas.
Understanding the Different EV Charging Levels | EnelX
Learn about the three different types of EV charging levels, their associated charge rates, and the typical use cases for each type.
evcharging.enelx.com
Thanks for the input, Ob. It seems to me that the only way EVs will ever be viable for even moderate (say 300 miles) trips from home will be if the battery technology improves so that the EV can travel for say 1,000 miles on a charge. The one thing I'm still puzzled about is the charger location along the road. If plenty of people have EVs won't there be a huge queue at the charging station and you might have to wait hours and hours for your turn for the level 3 half hour charge? Or do these charging stations have tons of "pigtails" that allow many cars to charge at the same time?A couple of thoughts here:
- You don't have to "fill-er-up" you only need to charge as much as you need to get to your endpoint
- Most cars can utilize level 3 which will take a half-hour to 45 minutes
- Level twos do 12 to 60 miles per hour of recharge (not "miles per hour" like the speed of a car)
- most EV's have a charger locator option so, on a trip, you can locate the chargers you prefer along your route through the car's GPS system
- It's all about the "Amps". You have to make sure the car will accept a higher level of amperage and find a charger that can supply that level.
- Even when you get to your destination, you'll have to charge your car so stopping at somebody's house who does not have a 220, 36 amp charger isn't going to help much. A 120 charger only does 4 to 5 mile per hour of charge. Ten hours is 40 to 50 miles.
- to me, if someone does long trips, they almost have to use a gas vehicle (second car or rent one). I am looking at having one car that is an EV and the other gas.
Understanding the Different EV Charging Levels | EnelX
Learn about the three different types of EV charging levels, their associated charge rates, and the typical use cases for each type.
its a scaling issue as well as a population issue. more and more charging stations are being built but more and more are buying EVs. When I worked in Austin, it was hard to find an EV charging station open (many office buildings had them outside and offered them as well as preferred parking. people would plug in and let them sit there all day even though fully charged). But here in Ohio, I see them sitting with nobody using them in many cases. Meijer grocery is pitching them (fill up while you shop, in 45 minutes you are good to go for free) but I almost never see anyone at them. i suspect, five years from now, you'll see them outside every home depot, lowes, whole foods, Giant Eagle and Kroger.
Thanks again, Ob, for the info. I imply from your post that these charging stations must have plenty of pigtails so that many EVs can use them at the same time. Otherwise, when half the people have EVs there would be fistfights at Krogers over who gets to use the charging station while shopping is done.
With a Tesla the charging is built into the GPS - all you need to do is use voice commands to tell it where you are going. For example, if you want to drive from State College to Rehoboth Beach, it recommends stopping at the Lancaster supercharger for 5 minutes. It’s that easy.
Go Anywhere | Tesla
Stay charged anywhere you go, with access to our global charging networks. Explore a route and we’ll find the best locations to keep you charged along the way and upon arrival.
www.tesla.com
And towing will cut your MPG in half also. If towing long distance there is no way you want any electrified vehicle at this stage of development in battery technology.
I would never use an EV for towing. One of the big problems with the batteries is heat dissipation. If you are towing or hauling a heavy load puts a heavy draw on the batteries which is why it cuts range so dramatically. And that added draw will make the batteries run very hot which will shorten battery life substantially.
I wish I had a better answer for you but it is catch as catch can. While there are lots of charging stations in Austin, there are also a ton of EVs. I suspect there is a "rush hour" as well. Here in the CLE, I see them open all the time. So I'd suggest you check availability.
I also just saw an article that somebody is building an app so that you can put a decent charging station in your home and sell access (or buy from somebody else) like VRBO or whatever. It is evolving!
