does he just hate draft picks. Good gollly Miss Molly. First give LV a second round pick for a player they wanted and now a first rounder and top prospect for a 30 year old banger. 
Has Rutherford lost it or...
- Thread starter canuckhal
- Start date
I always liked Oskar, but word is the team soured on him as the year went on.does he just hate draft picks. Good gollly Miss Molly. First give LV a second round pick for a player they wanted and now a first rounder and top prospect for a 30 year old banger.
They look awfully thin at C now, though. I can live with Rowney on the 4th line for next year. I'm just hoping that the trade signals that they're closer to keeping Bonino than they thought they'd be. Logic suggests otherwise, but one can hope
Unless they weren't convinced that Sundqvist was going to be a contributor in the league, I don't understand the move either. Draft picks are the lifeblood of any team, and they're going to need to start stock piling them in the coming years as the current core continues to age.
The pick to Vegas was just the league allowing the Golden Knights to hold every other team ransom...the price of moving a big contract while protecting their assets. They have a lot riding on having a successful franchise in Vegas.
The pick to Vegas was just the league allowing the Golden Knights to hold every other team ransom...the price of moving a big contract while protecting their assets. They have a lot riding on having a successful franchise in Vegas.
This was a good trade for the Pens. I don't know what people saw in Sundqvist, he was slow and lanky, I think a bit overrated by fans. Yes, the team soured on him in the minors this year. As far as the draft pick goes, this was not a deep draft this year at all, and a player drafted 31st overall is very likely several years from playing in the NHL.
What the Pens get in Reaves is arguably the toughest guy in the league but he's no stiff by any means. He can skate well and forecheck and keep in mind he played in Ken Hitchcock's conservative defensive scheme, he will get more opportunities to score with the Penguins. Bottom line, Pens needed an answer to guys like Tom Wilson, Brandon Dubinsky, etc.
What the Pens get in Reaves is arguably the toughest guy in the league but he's no stiff by any means. He can skate well and forecheck and keep in mind he played in Ken Hitchcock's conservative defensive scheme, he will get more opportunities to score with the Penguins. Bottom line, Pens needed an answer to guys like Tom Wilson, Brandon Dubinsky, etc.
I agree about Sundquist. We called up Sheary, Rust, Guentzel - three guys who could fly and Kuhnhackl isn't slow.
Then there's Sundquist....who looks like he's frozen in time. Sundquist was never going to be an NHL center.
If you can't skate, I don't want you.
It's not the loss of Sundqvist that burns as much as the mentality that a player like Reaves is actually a deterrent for anything. He's a retribution player that's more likely to cost you games taking penalties than prevent an opponent from crossing into a dark gray area of taking a liberty on a star player when given the opportunity.
That Reaves is slow, makes over a million $, is 30 years old and contributes at a level that would put him below every 4th line player the Pens rolled out there this year puts the crap icing on this cake.
At 6'3"/205, Sundqvist is built well for a pro center....and was able to crack 46 pts in his first full season of pro hockey here since coming over from Sweden. He's only 23 and has good upside but hard to picture his ceiling being above a 3rd line type of role.
Sundqvist somewhat pigeonholed in WBS because of Bonino and Cullen's presence down the middle and better options on the wing than putting him in that role. I would not necessarily advocated bringing him up to play 4th line minutes at this stage of his development, but thought he had a reasonable shot to step in depending on how the team addressed Bonino's vacancy....especially if the team took their cap savings and upgraded the D, which I think is a more pressing need.
Rutherford and the front office is specifically saying that Reaves is not slow and can defend. That is why they made the deal. He can skate and fight.
I don't like the goonery any more than you do. I also can't say if having someone to retaliate will lessen the targeting to star players. But we at least have to try to stop these guys from just hitting Sid because he's good. Going down into the second round and giving up Sundquist is not much of a sacrifice to try.
You may be right and we might be cutting Reaves mid-year. I'm willing to put him out there on the fourth line to start.
He has no upside. If you can't skate, you're limited. Sundquist can't skate. I don't care about size.
Sundqvist isn't a big loss. His skating was subpar and he wasn't progressing. When he was up this year he looked totally lost, and they had pretty much given up on him being anything other than a weak 4C.
This guy they got apparently can skate reasonably well and is supposedly a very good teammate in the room. He's only got another year on his deal, but the feeling is that he'll be easy to re-sign should they choose to do so. The Blues did protect him in the expansion draft, for some reason.
I don't blame Rutherford for going this route. I think he's trying to make a point to the league, and I think they will encourage this guy not to hit the guys that are slugging Sid, but rather to hit and slug that guy's best teammate. This guy can skate well enough to do it, evidently. I suspect that this guy will go after Nicklas Backstrom first chance he gets, for example, to let the Caps know that the rules of engagement have changed.
This guy they got apparently can skate reasonably well and is supposedly a very good teammate in the room. He's only got another year on his deal, but the feeling is that he'll be easy to re-sign should they choose to do so. The Blues did protect him in the expansion draft, for some reason.
I don't blame Rutherford for going this route. I think he's trying to make a point to the league, and I think they will encourage this guy not to hit the guys that are slugging Sid, but rather to hit and slug that guy's best teammate. This guy can skate well enough to do it, evidently. I suspect that this guy will go after Nicklas Backstrom first chance he gets, for example, to let the Caps know that the rules of engagement have changed.
Hit their best player. Let them know the rules of engagement have changed. Obvious now that you've said it. Your thinking is solid.
Really? He scored 7 goals in a DEFENSE first system. 1 less than Wilson and 2 less than Kunitz. More than Kuhnackl's 4.. He's not slow..
If Backstrom gets crushed every time Tom Wilson sticks his knee out or runs a little guy, Nick is not going to be too happy with Tom. That's the way to deal with it. Eventually Nick will be happy to see Wilson get his own head punched in by our guy, rather than his.
Lol.. No problem.. It's a trade that will have little effect, unless the Russian turns out to be a 40 goal scorer. Was hoping he would drop to us like Sprong did, but oh well..
If there's anything to quibble about, it is that the Pens have lost a lot of draft picks the last few years. They do need to restock the system. Hopefully they can hold onto most of their picks moving forward.
Probably not a big deal overall, agreed. I do see why they did it. Sullivan will have to manage his "play the right way" mantra, and his "don't get involved in the bullshit" preachings, with this guy, though. They don't want to mess up the culture, so it will be a balancing act. But after the way they were getting hacked and whacked all over the place, you can see why they did this.
A little deceiving when you compare games played to those you compared him to:
Kunitz - 29 pts in 71 games
Wilson - 26 pts in 78 games
Kuhnhackl - 16 pts in 57 games
Reaves - 13 pts in 80 games
At least with Wilson and Kuhnhackl you could argue they can grow into bigger roles and become 30 pt players. Reaves is 30....and has never topped 13 pts in his career.
There's no way to argue that Reaves will become an offensive player. But Rutherford is saying that Reaves will be fast on the fore check and provide toughness. Obviously Wilson and Kuhnhackl have greater upside, but ....they aren't going to knock Brandon Dubinsky into next Tuesday.
...in Rutherford we trust...
...he's done very well in getting veteran players in recent years to upgrade the team...
...think Kessel, Bonino, Hagelin, Kunitz, Cullen and Hornqvist...
...not to mention Sulllivan!...
...they work well together...
...he's done very well in getting veteran players in recent years to upgrade the team...
...think Kessel, Bonino, Hagelin, Kunitz, Cullen and Hornqvist...
...not to mention Sulllivan!...
...they work well together...
Thanks for pointing this out. This is how things like this get exaggerated for the purpose of making a point. The trade flipped the first for a second, or trading down 20 spots. Statistically speaking, that is a total non-event in the NHL draft.
This was not trading a first and Sundqvist, but rather trading Subqvuist. And that is a legitimate discussion giving up 23 year old Sudqvist for a 30 year old banger (not really anymore goons).
I think Rutherford deserves a pass for what he has done the last few years. A lot of people thought bringing in Kessel was a bad idea. Then look how the acquisitions of Daley, Schultz and Hagelin turned out. I like the move and who knows how it will turn out right now. The Pen's lack a tough guy and it was frustrating seeing players take it to Sid with no fear. Maybe Reaves will make them think twice about it now. Pierre McGuire seemed to like the move and he is by no means a Pen's homer. Most experts agreed that this draft wasn't deep so who knows how the 31st pick turns out.
He could knock Dubinsky into the next century and still not deter anyone from taking a shot at Sid or Geno in the heat of the moment when they have a clean window and Reaves on the bench with the rest of his 4th line
Most of his damage he inflicts is after the crime is done when his own discipline will be more of a detriment than an asset. Fans will love getting their pound of flesh but net impact on the team is negative if games are officiated as they have been for years when accounting for the enforcer....and there's no reason to think that will change
Not really a rental if his contract is a mere $1.125 million. Whatever revise he warrants after this season will be negligible, and well worth it.
But, having Reaves will enable us to hit other teams star players and d-men if and when they start hitting ours, instead of constantly having our players get hurt while other team's guys don't.
Agreed McGuire isn't a homer, for the Pens or anyone else. However, you do realize don't you, that he was on the Pens staff during their 1990's Cup runs. He is also far from the critic that many paint him to be. Met him at the Marriott in Pittsburgh during the playoffs a few years back. Contrary to popular belief he is a very nice, friendly guy.
If they keep Bonino, or sign another third line center, no room on the roster for both Sundqvist and Rowney. You of course only need one fourth line center. Clearly, Rowney has passed Sundqvist on the depth chart.
Well, except both Rutherford and Sullivan are on record touting Reaves skating....ability. They, of course, know hockey better than you and I.
I wouldn't expect coach or GM to go on record the day after a trade as saying they just acquired a clubfoot when they spent a 1st rounder on a guy that at best has 4th line potential.
You're confusing a cause and effect here when you look at what actually depleted the Pens lineup over the past 3 months. Most injuries were not from our stars being mistreated as much as pretty common wear and tear or bad luck (like blocked shots). For those injuries that didn't I'd propose a question - Does anyone really thinks Matt Niskanen doesn't take that shot at Sid if Reaves is sitting on the bench? Nonsense. These guys gladly lay down in front of 100+ mph slapshots...what makes anyone think a tussle with Reaves is not worth getting a shot in at 87 or 71?
Does Niskanen take the shot if he knows Reaves is going to knock the living crap out of Backstrom in retaliation? What if Reaves had already sent Brandon Dubinsky to the hospital in the previous round? Does Niskanen think about that?
I have no problem with either deal except that I believe he gave up too much in each instance.
There isn't a whole lot of talent in the Pens system so I guess it will be to continue to be win now and see what happens later. With the exception of Gentzel, the system has provided a lot of 3rd and 4th line players, which I guess is okay when you have Crosby and Malkin.
Crosby has taken a lot of abuse, but the players surrounding him have not protected him mainly because Sullivan did not want retaliation. Sullivan's focus has been on turning the cheek, hope penalties are called, and get revenge on the power play. It is not like it is goons who have taking liberties as those players don't play in the playoffs. So not sure what this guy is going to do, but if he can hit, forecheck, and skatet, he could be useful, just seemed a high price to pay.
I was critical of Rutherford, but almost all his moves have worked out.
Couldn't Kunitz have done this? Or another 3rd or 4th liner? Sullivan didn't want them to retaliate.
Pens have Crosby & Geno as top two centers. Bottom two in this system are penalty killers, shot blockers, face off guys with some ability to play make & score (Bonino,Cullen, Brandon Sutter,Jordan Stahl).
Sundquist is not good enough for top two lines and does not have the skills for the role of a 3rd or 4th line center on this team.
This team has cap room with Fleury gone and will re-sign Bonino if he wants to stay.
Sundquist is not good enough for top two lines and does not have the skills for the role of a 3rd or 4th line center on this team.
This team has cap room with Fleury gone and will re-sign Bonino if he wants to stay.
Well, if Reaves has already sent Dubinsky to hospital there's a decent chance he's suspended for at least part of Caps series...and had incurred a major penalty in the process, which I'm sure plays well into playoff success.
Besides that, also missing the point here - Reaves' "damage" or any havoc he's wrecking in these scenarios is all reactionary and retaliatory, not preventative..and after the fact that our own players were injured.
Does Reaves keep the Sens from mugging Sid? No. What they're doing to him is not cheapshotting him as much as it's obstructing him. So do we send Reaves out to lurch onto Bobby Ryan in retaliation? If I'm Ottawa I take that tradeoff every day of the week and twice on Sunday. In fact, any scenario whereby Reaves is on the ice out for blood is a scenario where the Pens are off their game....and exactly what the opponent would want.
Some argue against the deterrent effect of having guys like him. I do not. If Brandon Dubinsky cheap-shots Sid, and this guy beats the crap out of him once, then there is no way that Dubinsky doesn't think about that the next time. And if Wilson cheapshots someone, and this guy puts Backstrom into the locker room with a similar shot, no way that Trotz is going to allow Wilson to continue to run people.
Anybody who doesn't believe in the deterrent effect is too young to remember Semenko, and before him, Schultz. Nobody ever went near Gretzky or Clarke. Clarke had so much room around him, it turned an merely above average player into a Hall of Famer.
Anybody who doesn't believe in the deterrent effect is too young to remember Semenko, and before him, Schultz. Nobody ever went near Gretzky or Clarke. Clarke had so much room around him, it turned an merely above average player into a Hall of Famer.
Similar threads
