ESPN 30 for 30 -- Last Days of Knight

[Obliviax]

If you want to rail against media bias, this is really not the proper thread for it. Especially without seeing the show.

Bobby Knight's reputation as an a-hole was cemented long before this documentary. I don't know how you compare corroborated video evidence of Knight choking a kid to the ambiguous allegations against Joe.

There have been lots of claims that Joe was too tough on various players. Tons of them. Same is true of every big time coach of that era. The eras have changed. It is no longer cool to be a tyrant coach. it is also no longer cool to spank a kid. But I am not going to rail against a parent for spanking a kid in 1968. I am also not going to rail against fax machines, studded snow tires and MS-Dos. Different paradigms we were dealing with.

My father, when I told him I was going to limit my family to two kids, asked what would happen if one or both died. My father was a world war 2 vet and experienced the great depression and some really bad medicine. He grew up in a different world. So his perspective was different. When Knight did what he did, so did many others. I know, for a fact, the Jimmy V was a total ass. The famous pic of him, after winning the natl championship looking for someone to hug, was because nobody on the team liked him. But he died of Cancer and is no longer a viable target for the press. So Knight is. Just the way the press works.

 

[Erial_Lion]

I know, for a fact, the Jimmy V was a total ass. The famous pic of him, after winning the natl championship looking for someone to hug, was because nobody on the team liked him. But he died of Cancer and is no longer a viable target for the press.

If that’s the case, then his team deserves Oscars for the way they spoke of him in the 30 for 30 about that run...

 

[Osprey Lion]

Did you ever notice when someone cannot present a good argument they start attacking the person?

One shouldn't have to present an argument against the merits of a coach choking a player.

 

[Obliviax]

If that’s the case, then his team deserves Oscars for the way they spoke of him in the 30 for 30 about that run...

take a coach that coached for 20 years. Line up 200 former players and interview them. Take the ones that hate him and include it in your documentary. Take the ones that loved him and leave them out.

Every watch the TV show Survivor? I met a guy who told me the he was a writer for that show. When I asked why a reality show needed writers, he just laughed. He told me that they do the competition and get thousands of hours of recordings. Then they sit down and decide who is going to be the vamp, the bitch, the jock, the nerd and so on. then, the splice the recordings to back into the preconceived "plot". Naked and Afraid, Survivor, Real Housewives, Flip or Flop, the bachelor....all have gotten caught cheating, lying and/or gaming the system. What shows are real and what are not? you tell me. After the way the press treated Joe, do you really think you have any idea you are not falling for smoke and mirrors?

 

[JeffClear]

There have been lots of claims that Joe was too tough on various players. Tons of them. Same is true of every big time coach of that era. The eras have changed. It is no longer cool to be a tyrant coach. it is also no longer cool to spank a kid. But I am not going to rail against a parent for spanking a kid in 1968. I am also not going to rail against fax machines, studded snow tires and MS-Dos. Different paradigms we were dealing with.

My father, when I told him I was going to limit my family to two kids, asked what would happen if one or both died. My father was a world war 2 vet and experienced the great depression and some really bad medicine. He grew up in a different world. So his perspective was different. When Knight did what he did, so did many others. I know, for a fact, the Jimmy V was a total ass. The famous pic of him, after winning the natl championship looking for someone to hug, was because nobody on the team liked him. But he died of Cancer and is no longer a viable target for the press. So Knight is. Just the way the press works.

Knight’s temper and theatrics were over the top for any era.

 

[Erial_Lion]

take a coach that coached for 20 years. Line up 200 former players and interview them. Take the ones that hate him and include it in your documentary. Take the ones that loved him and leave them out.

Every watch the TV show Survivor? I met a guy who told me the he was a writer for that show. When I asked why a reality show needed writers, he just laughed. He told me that they do the competition and get thousands of hours of recordings. Then they sit down and decide who is going to be the vamp, the bitch, the jock, the nerd and so on. then, the splice the recordings to back into the preconceived "plot". Naked and Afraid, Survivor, Real Housewives, Flip or Flop, the bachelor....all have gotten caught cheating, lying and/or gaming the system. What shows are real and what are not? you tell me. After the way the press treated Joe, do you really think you have any idea you are not falling for smoke and mirrors?

I'm not talking about other shows or other teams/players that Valvano coached. I'm talking about your claim that 'The famous pic of him, after winning the natl championship looking for someone to hug, was because nobody on the team liked him". In that documentary, Derek Whittenburg specifically talked about the fact that after every game, he and Valvano hugged...but after that specific game, he got caught up in the excitement and jumped on a pile, and Valvano was left looking for someone else to hug. And this wasn't a case of 200 former players and cherry picking a few that liked him; this was a documentary of one team with 10-11 guys, and they all spoke glowingly about him (and again, if "no one liked him", then they deserve an award for their ability to act like they loved the guy).

 

[Obliviax]

Knight’s temper and theatrics were over the top for any era.

My school had a really good high school coach that retired after three years to become principle. He made Knight look like mother teresa. I know guys dragged around the field by their facemasks, once he jumped on top of the offensive huddle to hit guys.

My coach is a multi-time state champion. When I was a freshmen, he lined up four guys on me and told them to smash me. they did. I got the wind knocked out of me and it took everything I had to not cry. I think I was about 125 lbs at the time. The four guys were all seniors in the 180+ range and starters. In basketball, we had a coach that made us run sprints until someone threw up. We finally caught wind of it and designated a "throw up guy" who stuck his finger down his throat. I ran track in college for a guy who's brother is an NBA hall of famer. I walked on to run track and he ran me until I threw up the first day to see if I had what it took and then had a bunch of upper classmen tease me afterwards to see if I would stick (I quit, BTW).

None of these things is "right" by today's standards. But they were SOP back in the 70s and 80s.

I am glad those days are over and I am no fan of that behavior....but I am not going to go back in time and criticize them because, back then, this is what coaches did...almost all of them.

 

[Obliviax]

I'm not talking about other shows or other teams/players that Valvano coached. I'm talking about your claim that 'The famous pic of him, after winning the natl championship looking for someone to hug, was because nobody on the team liked him". In that documentary, Derek Whittenburg specifically talked about the fact that after every game, he and Valvano hugged...but after that specific game, he got caught up in the excitement and jumped on a pile, and Valvano was left looking for someone else to hug. And this wasn't a case of 200 former players and cherry picking a few that liked him; this was a documentary of one team with 10-11 guys, and they all spoke glowingly about him (and again, if "no one liked him", then they deserve an award for their ability to act like they loved the guy).

I would submit to you that this guy isn't telling the truth. But won't go into it in much more detail.

I will say, and Ive seen this reported, people were really upset at Jimmy V because he signed a big shoe contract. In their first meaningful game of the season, he noticed kids were wearing brands NOT from Jimmy V's brand. So he had the trainer tape up the shoes to hide the logo. The problem is he didn't start two starters because they were still getting their shoes taped at opening tip off. That didn't sit well with the players and many on his staff. it was clear he was more concerned about his shoe contract than winning a key game.

 

[Howie'81]

You did not. However, you did suggest maybe fewer would off themselves. Of course, perhaps even more would have if they weren’t treated as they are now. All conjecture.

No, I said I wondered. And I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I'm willing to wager that there were far fewer suicides of young people in those bad old days of getting a kick in the ass once in a while. Doesn't prove cause and effect, but what was behind those actions was the idea of shaking a kid up to impart some discipline and respect. There were consequences for not being respectful or disciplined. I'm not defending physical corrections, but I would not say that in moderation that they didn't have a good impact.

 

[pawildcat]

True. But the press will take thirty years of a guys career and condense it into thirty minutes of his worst days and draw a completely incorrect picture. We saw it with Joe. I don't know how correct or incorrect this show was but suspect they did what everyone else does.

Knight just was not a very nice human being. Cal Ripken has dealt with the press for about as long as Knight, and I've yet to hear anyone I know in the press say a negative word about him. It might be astonishing, but most people will be good to you if you're halfway decent to them.

 

[PennStateNate]

I'm not a fan at all of Knight but that said I'm not interested in ESPNs take on anything. Yesterday I saw trending on Twitter a show about Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson and that fight and the stuff around it and it sounded interesting and then I saw it was on ESPN and I stopped being interested.

Watched it and it was really really good. Hate ESPN, but they do great on their 30 for 30 and 60’s.

 

[ApexLion]

I too see both sides.

On one hand, I believe Knight got way too full of himself, became a self-absorbed a-hole bully to everyone, not just players.

On the other hand, I too came from a different era. I have many of the same stories. It was just a different time. ... I played HS football back from '80-82. I remember one day towards the end of practice I speared another player. No doubt I did it. I hated our RB, had a clear shot at him and I drove my helmet right into his rib cage. Our Head Coach say this, came running over to me screaming. Grabbed me by my facemask, and for about 1 straight minute whipped me around like a rag doll while kicking me in the ass. He then proceeded to make me run the track........... Just about the same time he was doing this, my Dad pulls in to pick me up from practice. He did not see my spear, just the Head Coach twisting me around by my facemask and kicking me in the ass......... My Dad's first question was "What did you do to make coach mad at you".

When I told my dad what I did. His response was that I deserved it.

Times were different.

There is a major difference. No one trusts a coach to do the right thing and parents don’t back teachers or coaches.

Now back to the op.

 

[Psychedelic_MackDaddy]

OK, I'm 8 months behind, and I'm sure the very astute members of this esteemed fansite have commented on this extensively. I just saw this hit piece for the first time tonight. I felt motivated to express my opinion because I felt so strongly about it. I've always admired Bob Knight and loved his no-nonsense attitude. The allegations and tape that came out about him didn't ring deeply for me. I came from a time in the late 80's when my football coach would have the tip of a fishing rod to crack us on the butt when we weren't practicing hard enough. He would grab us by the facemask on gameday on the sideline in the plain sight of our parents. Our parents didn't complain. Our basketball coach would have us run suicides (probably not appropriate today to use that term) until everyone on the team was puking after a poor performance. During those times it was tough; very tough. But I think I learned discipline, team work, and dedication to my performance level from those coaches. I thought the "pussification" of America only started recently, but apparently it started about 20 years ago. These young men going to Indiana on scholarship knew what they were getting when going to that program. Knight was a tough, tough coach. But it was an honor to play for a legend. When some of these players came out, and started talking to this WEASEL "journalist" I found that to be cowardly and self-serving. I thought the writer of this piece fluffed this up massively and he was getting off on bringing down a coaching legend. In the end, he got what he wanted. But for him to use the supposedly abused player from Indiana as a linchpin in this piece was disgusting. I was waiting for him to insinuate that Knight was responsible for the guy's heart attack later in his life. It made me sick. I hate ESPN. The writer worked with CNN in researching this story and that's all I need to know. The Star Magazine was more accurate and objective in its reporting than those two rags.

Look...

You can win via abuse: Coach Knight, Woody, etc. It's proven. Abuse wins championships.

or...

You can win with encouragement: Coach K at Duke, Bill at New England and JoePa.

So, what's your point? You prefer the former? Why? Did you pull the wings off of flies when you were young just to watch them suffer?

You think America has become (ahem) "pussified"? Nope. People merely speak freely about abuse now.

Arnold Schwarzenegger became a bodybuilding icon and anyone who ever trained with him will tell you he was the most intense workout partner and he never yelled or slammed weights around. Odd how so many people who lift scream and slam weights, isn't it?

 

[Kiber]

People just need to remember that it was a totally different era. I said same thing with some of the Sandusky accusations. For example, one of the big claims by the media that insinuated guilt of JS was that he took showers with some of the boys.... I remember gym class and football and we all took showers with the gym teachers & football coaches. Back in the 70's & 80's our locker rooms did not have private stalls for showers. The shower area was a huge room, with about 40 shower heads sticking out of the walls about 2'-3' feet apart. After gym class. After football practice. It was common to have a coach or a gym teacher standing right next to you showering at the same time.

Restaurants allowed smoking.
Airplanes allowed smoking
Parents had kids in the car without seat belts ... without safety seats.
Kids actually rode bikes without helmets .... and lived.

Times were different. The media likes to tell a story from years ago, but tell it in a 2018 timeline.

 

[NC2017]

OK, I'm 8 months behind, and I'm sure the very astute members of this esteemed fansite have commented on this extensively. I just saw this hit piece for the first time tonight. I felt motivated to express my opinion because I felt so strongly about it. I've always admired Bob Knight and loved his no-nonsense attitude. The allegations and tape that came out about him didn't ring deeply for me. I came from a time in the late 80's when my football coach would have the tip of a fishing rod to crack us on the butt when we weren't practicing hard enough. He would grab us by the facemask on gameday on the sideline in the plain sight of our parents. Our parents didn't complain. Our basketball coach would have us run suicides (probably not appropriate today to use that term) until everyone on the team was puking after a poor performance. During those times it was tough; very tough. But I think I learned discipline, team work, and dedication to my performance level from those coaches. I thought the "pussification" of America only started recently, but apparently it started about 20 years ago. These young men going to Indiana on scholarship knew what they were getting when going to that program. Knight was a tough, tough coach. But it was an honor to play for a legend. When some of these players came out, and started talking to this WEASEL "journalist" I found that to be cowardly and self-serving. I thought the writer of this piece fluffed this up massively and he was getting off on bringing down a coaching legend. In the end, he got what he wanted. But for him to use the supposedly abused player from Indiana as a linchpin in this piece was disgusting. I was waiting for him to insinuate that Knight was responsible for the guy's heart attack later in his life. It made me sick. I hate ESPN. The writer worked with CNN in researching this story and that's all I need to know. The Star Magazine was more accurate and objective in its reporting than those two rags.

I haven't watched this but being a resident of Happy Valley I've learned that the media, especially ESPN, can shape a story to fit their narrative. Bobby Knight is a winner from a different era and judging him by today's standards is impossible.

 

[eidolon21]

when ESPN does a "hit piece" (usually with certain undertones) I think it means 30 blatant lies in 30 minutes>

 

[Lyons212]

Joe was far from perfect but he never abused one of his players and always treated them with respect.
He may have yelled at them but he never publicly humiliated them or demeaned them or assault them.
There were never any allegations that Paterno physically assaulted anyone unlike Knight.
Paterno knew better never to lay hands on someone in anger.

What rock do you live under? After the 84 season, Paterno publically called the team a bunch of babies. Read Posnanski's book, he went out of his way to humiliate Don Abbey in front of a bunch of reporters (this was 1967). There is a reason why many PSU players hated Paterno while he was there, he could be a real mean SOB at times.

There are two extremes to coaching, John Wooden on the nice side and Bobby Knight on the mean side. In the 60's through 80's, most coaches were closer to the Knight side of the spectrum including Paterno. The reason for this is that many were WW2 vets, grew up in the depression, life was tough for them. If you were a vet during that time, training was tough.

Most of Paterno's players came to love him after they graduated and got on with their lives since they then understood what he was trying to accomplish. Even Knight is loved by many IU players. Knight like Paterno demanded his players graduate and held them to higher academic standards than the NCAA.

Over time, Paterno evolved and matured as a coach and Knight probably regressed in terms of how he treated people. Paterno became the loving grandfather and Knight became the nasty cranky old man.

Like most things in life, explaining Knight is complicated.

 

[NewEra 2014]

The main thing I noticed about that 30 for 30 was that much of it was about the reporter, which is why I didn't care for it.

 

[tboyer]

It's a lot like DJ Durkin and his staff were doing with Maryland. Even if humiliation and abuse work in some situations with some players, they're a crutch, they're a short cut. And sometimes if you combine that abusive mindset with a little carelessness, a player dies. Which is why Durkin's coaching days are hopefully over.

REAL tough guys don't take short cuts. That's the message coaches need to convey to college kids. Success is just plain old hard work.
This was one of Paterno's strengths. He was always preaching that short cuts don't pay off in the long run, do things the hard way, challenge yourself to the max, work as hard as you can work, and that is what makes you successful. For all the ways Franklin is different from Joe, on this core value I think Franklin and Joe are in exact alignment.

 

[tboyer]

Joe was an emotional guy, he was a screamer, sometimes he just lost it and said things he regretted. But I don't think his method of coaching was about humiliating people or trying to break them. His method of coaching was about building them up and making them stronger.

What rock do you live under? After the 84 season, Paterno publically called the team a bunch of babies. Read Posnanski's book, he went out of his way to humiliate Don Abbey in front of a bunch of reporters (this was 1967). There is a reason why many PSU players hated Paterno while he was there, he could be a real mean SOB at times.

 

[First Last]

One shouldn't have to present an argument against the merits of a coach choking a player.

How long was the choking? 5 minutes, 10 minutes? 45 seconds? 3 seconds? Was it really a choke, or just a grab around the neck?

 

[Connorpozlee]

I never got the impression with Knight that he was trying to mold young men into being better men. He always struck me as a lunatic who wanted the young men to follow him so he could win.
Joe always struck me as a guy trying to mold young men bro successful older men. He wanted to win badly but not at the expense of his own core values.

 

[pawildcat]

I haven't watched this but being a resident of Happy Valley I've learned that the media, especially ESPN, can shape a story to fit their narrative. Bobby Knight is a winner from a different era and judging him by today's standards is impossible.

Knight was controversial in his own era before there even was an ESPN. This is not a new thing.