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ESPN 30 for 30 -- Last Days of Knight

Mace54

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Feb 4, 2002
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OK, I'm 8 months behind, and I'm sure the very astute members of this esteemed fansite have commented on this extensively. I just saw this hit piece for the first time tonight. I felt motivated to express my opinion because I felt so strongly about it. I've always admired Bob Knight and loved his no-nonsense attitude. The allegations and tape that came out about him didn't ring deeply for me. I came from a time in the late 80's when my football coach would have the tip of a fishing rod to crack us on the butt when we weren't practicing hard enough. He would grab us by the facemask on gameday on the sideline in the plain sight of our parents. Our parents didn't complain. Our basketball coach would have us run suicides (probably not appropriate today to use that term) until everyone on the team was puking after a poor performance. During those times it was tough; very tough. But I think I learned discipline, team work, and dedication to my performance level from those coaches. I thought the "pussification" of America only started recently, but apparently it started about 20 years ago. These young men going to Indiana on scholarship knew what they were getting when going to that program. Knight was a tough, tough coach. But it was an honor to play for a legend. When some of these players came out, and started talking to this WEASEL "journalist" I found that to be cowardly and self-serving. I thought the writer of this piece fluffed this up massively and he was getting off on bringing down a coaching legend. In the end, he got what he wanted. But for him to use the supposedly abused player from Indiana as a linchpin in this piece was disgusting. I was waiting for him to insinuate that Knight was responsible for the guy's heart attack later in his life. It made me sick. I hate ESPN. The writer worked with CNN in researching this story and that's all I need to know. The Star Magazine was more accurate and objective in its reporting than those two rags.
 
I always thought a Knight was an immature bully and that 30 for 30 only reinforced that belief. The ends don’t always justify the means. I learned discipline, teamwork, and dedication to my performance without ever having a coach lay a hand on me or belittle me. It’s just not necessary.
 
It’s amazing I was able to learn discipline, teamwork, and dedication without having to be abused. I’m afraid you mistake correlation with causation. There are plenty of studies about the harmful psychological effects of physical abuse and belittlement by authorities on kids, care to share any with me that show how much benefit it adds?
 
I agree that Knight crossed a line, but they were different times. The way journalists and social media stalkers are pulling incidents from past situations to take down people now is irresponsible and out of control. Thank you Kevin Hart for speaking against them. Maybe some hack news agency should condemn the way our military treats our young men in basic training...perhaps less yelling and more teddy bears and ice cream ?
 
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I agree that Knight crossed a line, but they were different times. The way journalists and social media stalkers are pulling incidents from past situations to take down people now is irresponsible and out of control. Thank you Kevin Hart for speaking against them. Maybe some hack news agency should condemn the way our military treats our young men in basic training...perhaps less yelling and more teddy bears and ice cream ?

You seem to think it’s either physical abuse, or Teddy Bears and ice cream. There is a place in the middle. I think Joe landed perfectly in that place.

Regardless, some excerpts from an article over a decade old:

“Pentagon leaders reject the notion that training is aided by humiliation and hazing”

“Maj. John E. Niamtu, retired, wrote that molding recruits should be done "by example, not brutality."”

“"Hazing is neither useful nor necessary," said David M. Brahms, who retired from the Marines in 1988 as a brigadier general and top legal officer and who is now a lawyer in California. "You can't create people who are disciplined, who are law-abiding and who will adhere to the buddy system by the use of brutality."”
 
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OK, I'm 8 months behind, and I'm sure the very astute members of this esteemed fansite have commented on this extensively. I just saw this hit piece for the first time tonight. I felt motivated to express my opinion because I felt so strongly about it. I've always admired Bob Knight and loved his no-nonsense attitude. The allegations and tape that came out about him didn't ring deeply for me. I came from a time in the late 80's when my football coach would have the tip of a fishing rod to crack us on the butt when we weren't practicing hard enough. He would grab us by the facemask on gameday on the sideline in the plain sight of our parents. Our parents didn't complain. Our basketball coach would have us run suicides (probably not appropriate today to use that term) until everyone on the team was puking after a poor performance. During those times it was tough; very tough. But I think I learned discipline, team work, and dedication to my performance level from those coaches. I thought the "pussification" of America only started recently, but apparently it started about 20 years ago. These young men going to Indiana on scholarship knew what they were getting when going to that program. Knight was a tough, tough coach. But it was an honor to play for a legend. When some of these players came out, and started talking to this WEASEL "journalist" I found that to be cowardly and self-serving. I thought the writer of this piece fluffed this up massively and he was getting off on bringing down a coaching legend. In the end, he got what he wanted. But for him to use the supposedly abused player from Indiana as a linchpin in this piece was disgusting. I was waiting for him to insinuate that Knight was responsible for the guy's heart attack later in his life. It made me sick. I hate ESPN. The writer worked with CNN in researching this story and that's all I need to know. The Star Magazine was more accurate and objective in its reporting than those two rags.
I suppose it should still be okay for parents to beat the shit out of their kids like it was in the old days....it taught them discipline. Many things done in the past weren’t right. I coached for years and never verbally or physically abused a kid and I’d like to think they learned discipline, teamwork and dedication and they weren’t “pussified”.
 
The thing that bothered me about Knight is that he would stress discipline and would be the most undisciplined person in the building.
Throwing chairs, getting technical fouls and getting thrown out of games screaming at his players, acting like a madman.
And physically abusing players is uncalled for.
He was warned not to do it and yet he did it anyway.
And he just didn’t do this to his players, he attacked university staff, students, coaches, whoever happened to make him angry.
Back in the day some people wrongly equated being a bully as being a good coach or disciplinarian.
The guy couldn’t control his temper. A sure sign of being undisciplined.
 
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Sorry....it's not OK for a coach to put his hands around a kid's neck nor is it appropriate to wipe your ass in front in your team.

I thought the 30 for 30 was excellent. What's truly sad is people blindly worshiping someone despite anything they do. I can't even begin to comprehend the death threats against those who dared to speak up against Knight.
 
Being a good coach is like being a good manager in business. People have different personalities and you manage them each in different ways. The mark of a good manager is figuring out how to motivate a person and using the technique that best meets the need. I believe the fear and intimidation method is less effective as time goes on, probably for a number of reasons. I had a high school coach like that and it actually made me less motivated.
 
Brian Kelly seems pretty close to Knight in terms of behavior. His team will be in direct hunt for title for second time in 6 years. The style can work if talent is there but motivation is problem. I don't like it personally. Chair throwing was pure bully. Could have hurt someone.
 
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I agree that Knight crossed a line, but they were different times. The way journalists and social media stalkers are pulling incidents from past situations to take down people now is irresponsible and out of control. Thank you Kevin Hart for speaking against them. Maybe some hack news agency should condemn the way our military treats our young men in basic training...perhaps less yelling and more teddy bears and ice cream ?

Wow talk about your apples to concrete bowling balls comparison. :rolleyes:
 
OK, I'm 8 months behind, and I'm sure the very astute members of this esteemed fansite have commented on this extensively. I just saw this hit piece for the first time tonight. I felt motivated to express my opinion because I felt so strongly about it. I've always admired Bob Knight and loved his no-nonsense attitude. The allegations and tape that came out about him didn't ring deeply for me. I came from a time in the late 80's when my football coach would have the tip of a fishing rod to crack us on the butt when we weren't practicing hard enough. He would grab us by the facemask on gameday on the sideline in the plain sight of our parents. Our parents didn't complain. Our basketball coach would have us run suicides (probably not appropriate today to use that term) until everyone on the team was puking after a poor performance. During those times it was tough; very tough. But I think I learned discipline, team work, and dedication to my performance level from those coaches. I thought the "pussification" of America only started recently, but apparently it started about 20 years ago. These young men going to Indiana on scholarship knew what they were getting when going to that program. Knight was a tough, tough coach. But it was an honor to play for a legend. When some of these players came out, and started talking to this WEASEL "journalist" I found that to be cowardly and self-serving. I thought the writer of this piece fluffed this up massively and he was getting off on bringing down a coaching legend. In the end, he got what he wanted. But for him to use the supposedly abused player from Indiana as a linchpin in this piece was disgusting. I was waiting for him to insinuate that Knight was responsible for the guy's heart attack later in his life. It made me sick. I hate ESPN. The writer worked with CNN in researching this story and that's all I need to know. The Star Magazine was more accurate and objective in its reporting than those two rags.

You probably needed physical abuse because you aren't very bright.
 
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In the 80's I was a huge Bob Knight fan. A little bit less after reading "A Season on the Brink" and not at all any more after watching him in the 90's and now seeing the 30 for 30 segment. He is a bad person and he shouldn't be around kids.

When watching the 30 for 30 piece and seeing the video of the students and adults who were protesting with their support, I wondered what they thought when they saw themselves in this movie now.
 
Being a good coach is like being a good manager in business. People have different personalities and you manage them each in different ways. The mark of a good manager is figuring out how to motivate a person and using the technique that best meets the need. I believe the fear and intimidation method is less effective as time goes on, probably for a number of reasons. I had a high school coach like that and it actually made me less motivated.

Everyone responds differently to motivation techniques. Some respond better to "fear and intimidation" but that's where you have to be careful when recruiting. You have to find the guys that are to fit in that environment.

For example, I could never play for a guys like Clint Hurdle/Mike Tomlin. I can't stand the cheerleading and insane optimism. I'd much rather play for a coach like Bill Belichick. Yes, he's an ass but he holds everyone accountable. You need to have control of the team at all times. I don't need a coach/manager to "be nice" or "sugarcoat" anything. Tell me what you want done in any manner you see fit. Yell, scream, etc. I don't care.

I do agree that Knight lacked discipline and control though at least at the end.
 
I too see both sides.

On one hand, I believe Knight got way too full of himself, became a self-absorbed a-hole bully to everyone, not just players.

On the other hand, I too came from a different era. I have many of the same stories. It was just a different time. ... I played HS football back from '80-82. I remember one day towards the end of practice I speared another player. No doubt I did it. I hated our RB, had a clear shot at him and I drove my helmet right into his rib cage. Our Head Coach say this, came running over to me screaming. Grabbed me by my facemask, and for about 1 straight minute whipped me around like a rag doll while kicking me in the ass. He then proceeded to make me run the track........... Just about the same time he was doing this, my Dad pulls in to pick me up from practice. He did not see my spear, just the Head Coach twisting me around by my facemask and kicking me in the ass......... My Dad's first question was "What did you do to make coach mad at you".

When I told my dad what I did. His response was that I deserved it.

Times were different.
 
I agree that Knight crossed a line, but they were different times. The way journalists and social media stalkers are pulling incidents from past situations to take down people now is irresponsible and out of control. Thank you Kevin Hart for speaking against them. Maybe some hack news agency should condemn the way our military treats our young men in basic training...perhaps less yelling and more teddy bears and ice cream ?

If Knight coaches your kid today and acted like that way, you be outraged.
 
Sorry....it's not OK for a coach to put his hands around a kid's neck nor is it appropriate to wipe your ass in front in your team.

I thought the 30 for 30 was excellent. What's truly sad is people blindly worshiping someone despite anything they do. I can't even begin to comprehend the death threats against those who dared to speak up against Knight.
True. But the press will take thirty years of a guys career and condense it into thirty minutes of his worst days and draw a completely incorrect picture. We saw it with Joe. I don't know how correct or incorrect this show was but suspect they did what everyone else does.
 
True. But the press will take thirty years of a guys career and condense it into thirty minutes of his worst days and draw a completely incorrect picture. We saw it with Joe. I don't know how correct or incorrect this show was but suspect they did what everyone else does.
Same with OJ. He lived a pretty good life, outside of the night he killed his ex-wife and a waiter, or the night he robbed a guy in Vegas.
 
I suppose it should still be okay for parents to beat the shit out of their kids like it was in the old days....it taught them discipline. Many things done in the past weren’t right. I coached for years and never verbally or physically abused a kid and I’d like to think they learned discipline, teamwork and dedication and they weren’t “pussified”.
I remember an incident where my father, one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet, picked me up and threw me half way across the bedroom onto my bed for talking back to my mother. What my mother had done was wrong, looking back on it, but in my father's eyes, she was my mother and not to be talked to that way by me for any reason. I wasn't hurt, nor did I consider that abuse and the main thing is that I never forgot it. He made his point.
 
Same with OJ. He lived a pretty good life, outside of the night he killed his ex-wife and a waiter, or the night he robbed a guy in Vegas.
Are you equating murder to sliding a chair across the gym floor?

BTW this abusive behavior was more common than uncommon. Check Bear Bryant, Woody or Bos records.
 
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The thing that bothered me about Knight is that he would stress discipline and would be the most undisciplined person in the building.
Throwing chairs, getting technical fouls and getting thrown out of games screaming at his players, acting like a madman.
And physically abusing players is uncalled for.
He was warned not to do it and yet he did it anyway.
And he just didn’t do this to his players, he attacked university staff, students, coaches, whoever happened to make him angry.
Back in the day some people wrongly equated being a bully as being a good coach or disciplinarian.
The guy couldn’t control his temper. A sure sign of being undisciplined.

This is dead on. The analogy I always think of is trying to teach kids punctuality by showing up late every day. If you want to teach self-discipline and self-control that is wonderful and necessary. Then be the example and exhibit some.
 
In the 80's I was a huge Bob Knight fan. A little bit less after reading "A Season on the Brink" and not at all any more after watching him in the 90's and now seeing the 30 for 30 segment. He is a bad person and he shouldn't be around kids.

When watching the 30 for 30 piece and seeing the video of the students and adults who were protesting with their support, I wondered what they thought when they saw themselves in this movie now.
Interesting. He actually went up in my esteem after reading "A Season on the Brink."
 
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LOL. Like coach Knight or anyone else with a life cares what you think or what happened 30 years ago. He is retitred, well off and out of the reach of petty nonsense.
 
Life expectancy is going down due to increased suicides and drug ODs. Maybe there should be a study.
Right on. I wonder how many kids would stay on or get back on the straight and narrow if they weren't mollycoddled? Maybe fewer would off themselves.
 
I'm not a fan at all of Knight but that said I'm not interested in ESPNs take on anything. Yesterday I saw trending on Twitter a show about Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson and that fight and the stuff around it and it sounded interesting and then I saw it was on ESPN and I stopped being interested.
 
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I'm not a fan at all of Knight but that said I'm not interested in ESPNs take on anything. Yesterday I saw trending on Twitter a show about Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson and that fight and the stuff around it and it sounded interesting and then I saw it was on ESPN and I stopped being interested.

I get it as I try to stay away from their programming that is not the actual sport. There is some great content in these 30 for 30 shows though. Stories are interesting and presented very well by some really good Directors.
 
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I think Knight was fine when he started but over time went over the top. As people started to push back on him, his response was to push back harder on them but doing more of what they were protesting against. So at that point in time, he started to go over the top with some of the things he did. Like everything, things are not as black and white as that 30for30 made it look and you could do an expose on about anybody taking small excerpts and portraying them a certain way to make it look bad.

i had a high school JV coach, strict disciplinarian (but never physical), he yelled, wanted things done his way, etc he was ex-military as obvious where it came frmo...i loved him as 100% of the time I always knew what was expected and if you followed the rules (which were not crazy, just strict) then you were fine. Kids that didn't ended up sitting the bench and being yelled at more. Would I have liked him to be a little less strict (god forbid you did not run out an infield ground ball 100%), of course, but the fact that i knew the rules and they were the same rules for everyone made it ok. I hated the varsity coach. he played favorites, actively played kids off each other, allowed hazing to occur (and practically encouraged it), had different rules for every kid on the team, he was a complete ass. But if you looked at it from afar, it appeared the JV coach was bad because he yelled and had strict rules?
 
True. But the press will take thirty years of a guys career and condense it into thirty minutes of his worst days and draw a completely incorrect picture. We saw it with Joe. I don't know how correct or incorrect this show was but suspect they did what everyone else does.
If you want to rail against media bias, this is really not the proper thread for it. Especially without seeing the show.

Bobby Knight's reputation as an a-hole was cemented long before this documentary. I don't know how you compare corroborated video evidence of Knight choking a kid to the ambiguous allegations against Joe.
 
If you want to rail against media bias, this is really not the proper thread for it. Especially without seeing the show.

Bobby Knight's reputation as an a-hole was cemented long before this documentary. I don't know how you compare corroborated video evidence of Knight choking a kid to the ambiguous allegations against Joe.
Joe was far from perfect but he never abused one of his players and always treated them with respect.
He may have yelled at them but he never publicly humiliated them or demeaned them or assault them.
There were never any allegations that Paterno physically assaulted anyone unlike Knight.
Paterno knew better never to lay hands on someone in anger.
 
I like how there are 1,000,000 variables between life today and life even 30 years ago, but folks are willing to decide the determinative factor in suicides and ODs must be related to coddling. Confirmation bias is a strong thing.
 
As a former HS and College bball coach, 20+ yrs, I have a somewhat different perspective. I worked at Knight's bball camp in the early 90's. It was the most exhausting, yet informative camp I have ever worked. Knight was extremely demanding of his staff. It was one of those if you had a staff meeting at 8am and showed up at 745 you were 5 minutes late type camps. But, Knight was around all day and at nite you would go into the "war room" underneath the floor at Assembly Hall and Knight would stay up till 4am if need be and talk hoops. He would bring out all kinds of tapes from games and practice and give you anything you want. Hungry...he would call KFC from his office phone and in ten minutes buckets of chicken would show up. The guy was literally amazing, he could not do enough for you. On the other end, one morning we were going thru dummy offense before round 1 of daily games. This HS coach is watching his group go thru their offense wearing unlaced shoes while having a cup of coffee in his hand. Knight walks over, pulls out a wad of cash, peels of a coupla 50's and tosses the guy. Happened right next to my team. First thing I did was look down at my sneakers, thank God they were laced up!
 
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Joe was far from perfect but he never abused one of his players and always treated them with respect.
He may have yelled at them but he never publicly humiliated them or demeaned them or assault them.
There were never any allegations that Paterno physically assaulted anyone unlike Knight.
Paterno knew better never to lay hands on someone in anger.
You don't think Joe ever grabbed a kid's face mask? I would find that hard to believe.
 
I like how there are 1,000,000 variables between life today and life even 30 years ago, but folks are willing to decide the determinative factor in suicides and ODs must be related to coddling. Confirmation bias is a strong thing.
Since that's not what I said, I'll conclude this post wasn't directed at me.
 
Since that's not what I said, I'll conclude this post wasn't directed at me.

You did not. However, you did suggest maybe fewer would off themselves. Of course, perhaps even more would have if they weren’t treated as they are now. All conjecture.
 
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