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Epstein doc dump names include Louis Freeh

yes. He was openly antagonistic to the Intel apparatus.
I think the notion that the CIA wasn't involved is hard to defend.
If you want to accept that Oswald was involved at some level, fine, but to me, Jack Ruby is the mystery. Why would he take it upon himself to k1ll Oswald? Was he such a disciple of JFK? He was obviously forced, in some capacity, to do it. He is known to have been acquainted with the mob. So you could suggest that it was the mob that ran the opp, but, it's very possible that Ruby was a CIA asset, and they had something on him that he was willing to sacrifice his life to protect. Based on the other head-scratching details of what occurred after JFK expired, points to some sort of govt-involved shenanigans, so I'm leaning toward the CIA vs the mob.

One thing to consider.
We've all seen presidents, when campaigning, talk about certain foreign policy things, talk about reigning in certain activities, and then once elected, they never mention it again. Perhaps it's just politics, but perhaps it's the Intel community (some might call it part of the deep state) that, once elected, has a talk with the president elect on how things REALLY work, who is really in charge, and the personal consequences if they don't fall in line.
JFK meddled in CIA busines in Laos, Vietnam, Cuba twice, Indonesia and at least one African nation. He fired Allen Dulles, the head of the CIA but what goes around comes around. Dulles was appointed to the Warren commission by LBJ and became the de facto head of the commission
 
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Exactly. That is why I used the qualifier of "wealth." Shockingly many were not seemingly enjoying themselves as much as us commoners would think.

Everyone has "problems"- some are just more based on needs than wants. While I was extended many wonderful invitations, eventually we settled into our own lane.

As long as you are priming the careers or bonuses of the uber wealthy there is a role for you to play- however like most business relationships- they do not last much beyond your last day on the job.

I worked with and was close enough to be invited to the engagement party of a descendant of a famous robber baron who had the last name. Dude was a genuinely good hearted person. Maybe not the brightest on our team but worked late and hard to keep up. People tolerated him because there was no way he was getting fired.

I often wondered how it felt to know that part of why you were employed was because of who your great grandparents were. It probably feels bad if you know that you need others to carry you whenTh kids from every walk of life, sometimes giving homebound instruction to teenage immigrant mothers in dwellings where you could see through the floorboards in the winter.

I wouldn't trade either experience because the dichotomy has allowed me to feel very comfortable in my skin. Just because you are wealthy does not mean you are happy, or in many cases even good. This whole Epstein scandal is showing how perverse some folks can be with too much money and time on their hands.

If more dominoes fall so be it.
Thanks for the anecdotes. Interesting 'conversation'.

I don't have any nearly similar experiences, but the thread did a few things to mind:

-Being a fan of photography books, especially ones where the subjects provide some context, one of my favorites is entitled Rich and Poor, where people on the income extremes were photographed and provided their thoughts on their lives. If you didn't pair the photo with the life 'testimonial', you might not be able to accurately guess where the person for the testimonial was on the income scale-having too little or too much financial means both came with challenges-some the same....I read an article in Time some time later about a statistical study correlating income and happiness, which at the time (about 10 years ago) concluded there was no positive correlation above $75K...and at that time was still pretty accessible for quite a few Americans.
Which to me correlates to the difference between happiness (which can be temporary) and joy, a more grounded sustainable 'state'...I heard a recent sermon where the 'punchline' was 'if you want happiness, go on a cruise, if you want joy, pursue a spiritual endeavor (I forget the exact words to the latter, but the cruise metaphor was what stuck in my mind).
-87PennSt8, your comment on volunteer work resonates with me, having been a volunteer chaplain at a local hospital for a handful of years prior to Covid. I read an article in the Utne Reader that compared the joy provided by certain activities with their societal status (desirability and attainability). It showed the joy from volunteering/charity as being exceeded only by dancing (I think bad dancing in the right environment provides even more joy). Many of the higher status and desirable things gave much less joy, but probably some temporary happiness-which may be fed by society's bias.

-Lastly book I found a book on values for the modern family which I reference from time to time so as to not get too far off track from what matters. It covers joy, abundance, and authenticity in a readable format of the author (a young married minister with children) sharing personal anecdotes of her own challenges and failure, The chapters on joy and abundance support parts of this conversation. I was originally drawn to the chapter on authenticity being it's become such aa big buzzword lately. Her anecdote was a discussion she had with members of her church about values they learned as children. Surprisingly, included among honesty, hard work, etc was the NEED to hide something-an issue or problem in their family-alcoholism, etc. What came next in this conversation story was her asking the group what the opposite of authentic was....after a long pause, one older man offered 'pretense'...like pretend, which we all do AND have learned to do...'How are things?', 'Fine'. While the anecdotes in this thread align with this, lack of authenticity probably crosses all socio-economic dimensions, and has its own burden. Even before reading this, I was somewhat broken from this habit after the birth of my special needs daughter and getting introduced to support groups who (the ones who participated) were probably some of the most authentic people I've been around, sharing mistakes they made with uniquely challenged children, many from those educated (advanced degrees) and accomplished (VPs of national firms, even state directors of education and disability-related agencies).
 
Are you aware of the strange set of circumstances that all happened that morning to put Oswald and Ruby together at that exact spot at that exact time? No way it was planned out or premeditated.
The exact details such as times are a bit fuzzy but here is my best recollection: Ruby owned a strip joint that had a lot mob types and also cops hang out so he got to know some of both. After the assassination it was shut down for a few days. On the morning he killed Oswald he got a call from one of the dancers about how broke she was so he told her he would wire her some money. So he went to Western Union to do so which was on the same block as the police station(I think there are multiple Western Union outlets in any big city and he picked this one to be near the station).

He got in line at WU to wire the money and a woman behind him was in a big hurry (don’t remember why) so he let her in front of him. Certainly wouldn’t allow her to do so if he wanted to get to the station to kill Oswald. And this is verified by the woman and the time stamp of the money transfer. After he completed the wire transfer he decided to walk to the police station just to see if he could learn anything from any cops he knew.

Meanwhile, at the police station: Oswald was to be transferred earlier….. IIRC 8 AM. But that morning one of the investigatory agencies…(in an event like this all these agencies want to get involved….FBI, city police, Tx Rangers….I don’t remember which came in late but might have been the Rangers)….wanted to interview Oswald. That lasted 45-60 minutes delaying his transfer. Then just before moving him he asked for a sweater as it was unusually cold outside. They scrambled around to find one causing another delay.

How Ruby got in was interesting too. They wanted to use an armored car to transfer Oswald but when it pulled up it wouldn’t fit into the ramp to the underground garage where they were bringing Oswald out. So the cops guarding that ramp walked into the street to clear a way for the armored car to pull back out. This left it unguarded and that is when Ruby walked in. They also waited a few more minutes for a regular police car to replace the armored car.

So in summary, Oswald was supposed to have been moved at least one hour before Ruby even got to the Western Union. And Ruby further delayed the process by allowing a woman to go in front of him. And there were several delays in the transfer of Oswald that allowed them to cross paths at just the right time to step into the history books for all eternity.
 
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^and they just happened to have the area where Ruby shot Oswald all perfectly mic-d up and a perfect camera angle
 
The exact details such as times are a bit fuzzy but here is my best recollection: Ruby owned a strip joint that had a lot mob types and also cops hang out so he got to know some of both. After the assassination it was shut down for a few days. On the morning he killed Oswald he got a call from one of the dancers about how broke she was so he told her he would wire her some money. So he went to Western Union to do so which was on the same block as the police station(I think there are multiple Western Union outlets in any big city and he picked this one to be near the station).

He got in line at WU to wire the money and a woman behind him was in a big hurry (don’t remember why) so he let her in front of him. Certainly wouldn’t allow her to do so if he wanted to get to the station to kill Oswald. And this is verified by the woman and the time stamp of the money transfer. After he completed the wire transfer he decided to walk to the police station just to see if he could learn anything from any cops he knew.

Meanwhile, at the police station: Oswald was to be transferred earlier. But that morning one of the investigatory agencies…(in an event like this all these agencies want to get involved….FBI, city police, Tx Rangers….I don’t remember which came in late but might have been the Rangers)….wanted to interview Oswald. That lasted 45-60 minutes delaying his transfer. Then just before moving him he asked for a sweater as it was unusually cold outside. They scrambled around to find one causing another delay.

How Ruby got in was interesting too. They wanted to use an armored car to transfer him but when it pulled up it wouldn’t fit into the ramp to then underground garage where they were bringing Oswald out. So the cops guarding that ramp walked into the street to clear a way for the armored car to pull back out. This left it unguarded and that is when Ruby walked in. They also waited a few more minutes for a regular police car to replace the armored car.

So in summary, Oswald was supposed to have been moved at least one hour before Ruby even got to the Western Union. And Ruby further delayed the process by allowing a woman to go in front of him. And there were several delays in the transfer of Oswald that allowed them to cross paths at just the right time to enter the history books for eternity.
What do you suppose the motive was then?
 
What do you suppose the motive was then?
First, just realized I replied to my own post instead of yours🤭

Motive? Anger, hatred, Oswald had that smarmy look to him that made people dislike him. Ruby said he loved Kennedy and was very angry. People do crazy things….🤷🏼‍♀️
 
First, just realized I replied to my own post instead of yours🤭

Motive? Anger, hatred, Oswald had that smarmy look to him that made people dislike him. Ruby said he loved Kennedy and was very angry. People do crazy things….🤷🏼‍♀️
This is not directed at you, but I'll be honest, I don't buy any of that. To think that a mob connected strip club owner is such an acolyte of the Kennedys, that effectively ended his own life in that instant, just doesn't pass the sniff test.
 
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It is incredibly sad and telling that the names haven't been released to the public. I suppose certain uber wealthy and connected really can commit any crime that they want without repercussions. I mean here we're talking systematic trafficking and pedophilia ring amongst some of the most powerful who continue to remain protected. And there are still people who want to just trust that they have our best interests in mind?
They will start World War III and blow up the planet before letting all the names be revealed.
 
Not to twist an already meandering thread further- but add Vince McMahon to the Jeffrey E Club. I was aware that he was a creep. But if you read up on his texts with a former employee you'll see a beyond troubled man- with a ton of money, power, and apparently too much time on his hands.

Not for the faint at heart. No wonder he disappeared. One Sick Mofo...

 
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😂 The Swamp turned on the jealous wannabe dick-taster 😂 The envy queen that tried to out do them...and fell flat on his hideous delusional face each and every time. 'He exposed the swamp' to whom? 🙈 🙉 🙊 The quick and the dead? ?! Surreal... Seriously. Surreal.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen in my life.
 
First, just realized I replied to my own post instead of yours🤭

Motive? Anger, hatred, Oswald had that smarmy look to him that made people dislike him. Ruby said he loved Kennedy and was very angry. People do crazy things….🤷🏼‍♀️

Jack Rubenstein was a patsy that got set up like Oswald, and was gradually poisoned and died in jail relarively young after repeatedly talking about being set up as a fall guy and loose end in a larger conspiracy and all-out coup.
 
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First, just realized I replied to my own post instead of yours🤭

Motive? Anger, hatred, Oswald had that smarmy look to him that made people dislike him. Ruby said he loved Kennedy and was very angry. People do crazy things….🤷🏼‍♀️
Kennedy and strip joints. Interesting key areas of interest.

It is hard to believe that a strip joint/mafia guy was so in love with JFK that he would certainly be committing suicide by shooting the shooter. It is much more believable if someone said that the mafia used Ruby to shoot Oswald to cover their tracks and motivated Ruby by threatening his family or somebody near and dear.

A president (I won't name names) said he'd release the file when elected and then didn't. In a personal conversation, somebody asked why. And that president said "if you saw what was in there, you'd know why but I can't discuss it any further." Now, over 60 years later, the govt still doesn't want us to know what happened.
 
Kennedy and strip joints. Interesting key areas of interest.

It is hard to believe that a strip joint/mafia guy was so in love with JFK that he would certainly be committing suicide by shooting the shooter. It is much more believable if someone said that the mafia used Ruby to shoot Oswald to cover their tracks and motivated Ruby by threatening his family or somebody near and dear.

A president (I won't name names) said he'd release the file when elected and then didn't. In a personal conversation, somebody asked why. And that president said "if you saw what was in there, you'd know why but I can't discuss it any further." Now, over 60 years later, the govt still doesn't want us to know what happened.
So the CIA set up the entire scenario? I don’t believe any bumbling government agency is that good to pull it off.
 
Any agency.
I think it is likely. While I agree it would take a heck of an agency to pull it off, I think it is also just as hard to believe that idiot Oswald pulled it off. he took three shots in just over 8 seconds with a crappy bolt action rifle with two of them hitting the mark (if you believe the magic bullet theory).

Just a few months ago, the secret service agent that was just behind the Kennedy car said that he found the "magic bullet" on the top of the back seat. he put it in his pocket and later placed it on the gurney that was used to cart kennedy into the hospital. The magic bullet has always defied logic but that sometimes happens in crime scenes. But if the SS agent is telling the truth, there is no way that bullet could have gone through Kennedy, the back of the front seat, the gov's arm and then leg and ended up BACK IN THE BACK SEAT.

So that takes you back to four shots. In testing, not a single marksman (today, marksperson) could get off four shots with a bolt action rifle.

So, I don't know who did it. But I am 75% certain Oswald didn't act alone or by himself.

 
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I think it is likely. While I agree it would take a heck of an agency to pull it off, I think it is also just as hard to believe that idiot Oswald pulled it off. he took three shots in just over 8 seconds with a crappy bolt action rifle with two of them hitting the mark (if you believe the magic bullet theory).

Just a few months ago, the secret service agent that was just behind the Kennedy car said that he found the "magic bullet" on the top of the back seat. he put it in his pocket and later placed it on the gurney that was used to cart kennedy into the hospital. The magic bullet has always defied logic but that sometimes happens in crime scenes. But if the SS agent is telling the truth, there is no way that bullet could have gone through Kennedy, the back of the front seat, the gov's arm and then leg and ended up BACK IN THE BACK SEAT.

So that takes you back to four shots. In testing, not a single marksman (today, marksperson) could get off four shots with a bolt action rifle.

So, I don't know who did it. But I am 75% certain Oswald didn't act alone or by himself.

It was possible to fire three shots in that time. First, that time starts when the first shot was fired so it was two shots fired in seven seconds after the first shot. And it has been repeated.

This guy used the exact same rifle model, the only difference was the serial number.


 
It was possible to fire three shots in that time. First, that time starts when the first shot was fired so it was two shots fired in seven seconds after the first shot. And it has been repeated.

This guy used the exact same rifle model, the only difference was the serial number.


OK, First, Morgan is an "expert firearms instructor", not some goof that did a couple of years as a go-for in the US Army.

second, with the SS agent's revelation that he found a bullet on the top of the back seat, there has to be four shots. This includes the Warren Commission finding that a bullet was shot through Kennedy's neck, through the back seat, hitting Connely's wrist (breaking the bone), and getting lodged in his thigh. And after all, that, looking as pristine as this:

iCYgqesYdjfUrEwyutLRWU.jpg



A bridge too far. Certainly as "unbelievable" as an agency pulling this off. Especially now, when we know, the govt has been complicit in so many things from Vietnam to Iraq to covid to Russia!
 
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OK, First, Morgan is an "expert firearms instructor", not some goof that did a couple of years as a go-for in the US Army.

second, with the SS agent's revelation that he found a bullet on the top of the back seat, there has to be four shots. This includes the Warren Commission finding that a bullet was shot through Kennedy's neck, through the back seat, hitting Connely's wrist (breaking the bone), and getting lodged in his thigh. And after all, that, looking as pristine as this:

iCYgqesYdjfUrEwyutLRWU.jpg



A bridge too far. Certainly as "unbelievable" as an agency pulling this off. Especially now, when we know, the govt has been complicit in so many things from Vietnam to Iraq to covid to Russia!
You’re debating a different issue. The topic is was Ruby hired to kill Oswald? Under the circumstances almost impossible for him to have planned on killing Oswald.
 
You’re debating a different issue. The topic is was Ruby hired to kill Oswald? Under the circumstances almost impossible for him to have planned on killing Oswald.
well, I also don't agree. he could easily have been tipped off or the whole thing delayed. he may have known well ahead of time. Knowing what we know about the Kennedys and their relationship with the mafia, I have a real hard time believing some mafia-connected strip joint owner was so incensed that Oswald shot Kennedy that he grabbed a gun and shot Oswald while being held in custody. It just doesn't make any sense. At the time, they were pretty certain Oswald was "a" shooter but it was very uncertain (as it still is today) that russia, the mob or the CIA was involved. If you "loved" Kennedy, wouldn't you want that guy to live, at least a little while, until it played out?

Or, if you feel he was emotionally outraged, why wouldn't he have gone there sooner, wait around, and go for Oswald. Why would he be late and then in some fit of rage, pull out a pistol and shoot him. Either way you paint it (Kennedy lover, in a fit of emotional rage, can't control himself or cold calculated guy who wanted to take Oswald out who happened to show up late in time to shoot him) it doesn't make sense. Regardless, the mafia connected, strip joint owning, Kennedy lover doesn't add up at all.

And when you pile all of that into the kennedys, Ruby, the three shot theory, the magic bullet theary, and the CIA/Mafia/Warren mess, I simply don't believe what the govt has tried to feed us. I think it is pretty clear the Warren Commission played it fast and lose to give the public closure. Why wouldn't they do the same with Ruby?
 
well, I also don't agree. he could easily have been tipped off or the whole thing delayed. he may have known well ahead of time. Knowing what we know about the Kennedys and their relationship with the mafia, I have a real hard time believing some mafia-connected strip joint owner was so incensed that Oswald shot Kennedy that he grabbed a gun and shot Oswald while being held in custody. It just doesn't make any sense. At the time, they were pretty certain Oswald was "a" shooter but it was very uncertain (as it still is today) that russia, the mob or the CIA was involved. If you "loved" Kennedy, wouldn't you want that guy to live, at least a little while, until it played out?

Or, if you feel he was emotionally outraged, why wouldn't he have gone there sooner, wait around, and go for Oswald. Why would he be late and then in some fit of rage, pull out a pistol and shoot him. Either way you paint it (Kennedy lover, in a fit of emotional rage, can't control himself or cold calculated guy who wanted to take Oswald out who happened to show up late in time to shoot him) it doesn't make sense. Regardless, the mafia connected, strip joint owning, Kennedy lover doesn't add up at all.

And when you pile all of that into the kennedys, Ruby, the three shot theory, the magic bullet theary, and the CIA/Mafia/Warren mess, I simply don't believe what the govt has tried to feed us. I think it is pretty clear the Warren Commission played it fast and lose to give the public closure. Why wouldn't they do the same with Ruby?
Bobby blamed himself for years. Bobby had zealously attacked mafia connections to unions which created a lot of hate and feelings of betrayal. Dunno why they would target John instead of Bobby. Unless it was because he was sneaking Giancana’s mistress into the WH for recreational purposes.
 
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Bobby blamed himself for years. Bobby had zealously attacked mafia connections to unions which created a lot of hate and feelings of betrayal. Dunno why they would target John instead of Bobby. Unless it was because he was sneaking Giancana’s mistress into the WH for recreational purposes.
Yep. it is speculated that the Mafia brought in Illinois for Kennedy due to father Joe's mafia connections (alleged that he made his fortune running booze during the Depression). I can see how the mafia felt betrayed by the Kennedy boys.
 
Yep. it is speculated that the Mafia brought in Illinois for Kennedy due to father Joe's mafia connections (alleged that he made his fortune running booze during the Depression). I can see how the mafia felt betrayed by the Kennedy boys.
I don’t think speculated and alleged are needed in your reply!
 
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Bobby blamed himself for years. Bobby had zealously attacked mafia connections to unions which created a lot of hate and feelings of betrayal. Dunno why they would target John instead of Bobby. Unless it was because he was sneaking Giancana’s mistress into the WH for recreational purposes.

From what I understood, had they gone after Bobby, John would have cracked down even harder on them.....they took out John and essentially neutered Bobby.
 
From what I understood, had they gone after Bobby, John would have cracked down even harder on them.....they took out John and essentially neutered Bobby.
Sounds possible. The other theory I saw was going after Bobby would have made it too obvious. John had so many enemies that we argue even today. Mafia, military industrial, CIA, Fidel, anti Fidel, Russia, LBJ and his Big Oil buddies, Hoover and the FBI…. John had some kind of death wish to form that impressive list.
 
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