The 2009 team that won the NIT had to win at Florida, had to beat ND, had to beat Baylor...
Does Chambers get his walking papers or....
- Thread starter rokar
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Can't help but notice that you avoided P5 schools (other than TCU), which is the only fair comparison for PSU, and then failed to state what top player they lost and still managed to make it again. Also, TCU's last 3 recruiting classes were 37th, 32nd, and 48th. So even the one P5 school didn't fit your criteria. I'll wait to hear who this P5 school is that doesn't recruit top 50 classes and makes the tournament after losing key players. It doesnt happen. What happens is Northwestern from last year to this year.
Let's not make comparisons between a coach who regularly took his team to the NCAA and one who never has.
As you suggest, a decision should not be based on losing one game. In Chamber's case it's losing to Wisconsin, Rider, Maryland, Indiana, Minnesota, and Northwestern and not making the NCAA tournament this year, or in any previous year. So the NIT is his do-over, a chance that most coaches don't get.
But if he underperforms in the NIT, PSU shouldn't fire him. He can come back next season without an extension and revisit the decision then. Sure, that will take his recruiting off the rails, but he's done nothing to merit an extension. He's recruited better? So what. In the immortal words of Charlie Tuna, "you are what your record says you are" and Chamber's record says no extension.
I don't believe it's necessary to get specific because it is info you want to see. Every team with good players loses them regularly. Some teams benefit from having very good college players that know they won't make it in the NBA, but form very good college teams. I don't believe PSU fans care how the PSU coach assembles a regular NCAA participant team. Sure, it's easier if a coach can recruit potential NBA players. Or can recruit players that he can coach to be NBA marginal talent. That is what Dixon did at pitt during most of his tenure. Only Juwan Blair from pittsburgh Schenley, as I remember was a top NBA can't miss recruit at pitt. I remember him developing lots of players, gradually over their careers, particulary big men.
Go ahead and continue to make excuses for Chambers. It's the fashionable thing to do on this board. But 7 years is about 2 years too long to prove he can develop a program at PSU.
I only asked for examples because YOU said it happens. Among power 5 teams, no it does not. The teams that can overcome losing key players are teams with tradition that have top 50 recruiting classes annually. That's unrealistic to expect of penn state at this point, but it's what I think Pat is building towards with the progress we're making each year.
It's unrealistic to expect good recruiting at PSU because YOU say so?? It's Chambers' program, and if Chambers can not develop a program (recruiting, player development, game management and strategy, roster management). PSU is a power 5 team, with great sports name recognition. Tradition does not win games, and lead teams to the NCAA. Recruiting, player development, game management and strategy, and roster management does.
Progress every year. Recruiting is the best over a 4 year stretch its ever been. We had a .500 record in conference despite being led by 3 sophomores. If you want to say everything sucks and nothing has changed, that's fine, but everything that's happening says otherwise.
I did not say that progress has not been made in some areas of the program. I have said that Chambers has shown to be a very poor game manager. And game management is wins and losses. Recruiting has been sporadic other than the two classes, 2015 and 2016. And big men talent has been a big weakness.
7 years is more than enough time to turn a program around. But it seems that with the 9-9 B10 record Chambers will be at PSU in 2019. If his whole plan for success revolves around Carr staying, he may be out of luck.
If Carr leaves, I believe a good coach should still be able to make the tournament (NCAA) with the talent on the roster that should improve year to year - including Reeves Watkins, Stevens, Wheeler in his 2nd year, and 2 talented incoming guards. But I don't believe that Chambers will be an even bet to get that accomplished. And yes, I believe PSU could attract a good young up and coming coach that would do a better job with that talent than Chambers.
How long have we been saying this? A really long time. And PSU has bungled every men's basketball hire in the last 25 years, with Chambers being the most exciting one by a mile, and that is clearly not saying much. And here we are, almost 30 years after joining the Big Ten still saying that an up and coming coach would fix the problem. But none have come along, and still to this day, Jerry Dunn has the most NCAA tournament appearances and the most NCAA tournament wins of any PSU coach since 1960.
The expectation among fans is ridiculous as well. You don't go from horrible all the time, to Big Ten championships all the time, with no stops in between. A realistic goal is for a coach to get us to where we can expect 9-9 or better almost every year, and to accomplish that within 3 years. Then, taking it to the next level would be extremely difficult, but at least we'd be making the tournament fairly often.
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I have no idea if he would come here, but if Sandy could pony up enough money to get him, what would happen is we hired someone like Danny Hurley? Would all the players who supposedly would leave still transfer if he were hired? What about current recruits? Who is going to have a better 2019 recruiting class, Chambers or Hurley? Who is more likely to get us into the tournament every year, Pat or Danny? The bar is not Dunn and DeChellis. The goal is consistent NCAA tournament berths and Big Ten championhsips.
Yeah I think the players would probably stay in that case. So what is the downside risk? Firing the coach and not getting your #1 target. And ending up with plan Z.
Fear of the unknown shouldn't be a reason to keep a HC. I honestly feel like everyone advocating keeping Chambers just wants to keep him because they aren't sure we'll get a better coach not because he's earned the right to stay
I have the game program from the Penn State vs Minnesota first ever Penn State Big Ten football game (signed by the Nittany Lion! I was a kid, thought it was cool when he came by us on the concourse). When you said almost 30 years, I thought no way...I can't believe we've been in this conference this long.
Let me ask a few questions and offer some ideas that have not been given enough thought.
I know there has been great disappointment from missing the NCAAs. I too am disappointed. Let's suppose the season had gone a little different. Suppose we hadn't had a member with scholastic problems nor had an injury to Watkins. Does anyone not believe we would have made the dance? If we had made the dance, would so many on this board want Chambers gone?
Now I know Chambers is responsible for development of a good bench and our's was not very deep. With a deep bench, would we not have been able to win another four or five wins? Now why don't we have a deep bench? I saw a significant upgrade in talent when Chambers broke into big city talent. That is the beginning and the follow-on is likely an upgrade in bench.
Why is the bigger city talent necessary? The big cities are where the better talent comes from. Steel sharpens steel! Deeper competition develops athletes. Does anyone believe DeChellis didn't want big city talent? I think he did, but he couldn't convince them to leave the big metropolitan areas for "hayseed" (sic) State College and a school with no basketball tradition. We now have a cadre of big city athletes who will likely sing the praises of Penn State and will probably help land future big metropolitan basketball talent.
On to the issue of should Chambers be gone if we don't make "dance" next year. What should happen if we have several injuries or sickness or scholastic problems and we don't make the "dance". Should Chambers be gone for issues outside his control? The point I'm making is we should not make a predetermined decision today while not knowing what could happen next year.
I see a man in Chambers who is upgrading our basketball program and as long as there is continued improvement, we stick with him.
One last issue. I see a lot of criticism of Chambers in-game coaching. Is it not arrogant for us who do not make a living coaching and do not work hours with the athletes to criticize Chambers and his staff for those in-game adjustments? Didn't we see a whole lot of criticism of Franklin's in-game coaching, early on?
I know there has been great disappointment from missing the NCAAs. I too am disappointed. Let's suppose the season had gone a little different. Suppose we hadn't had a member with scholastic problems nor had an injury to Watkins. Does anyone not believe we would have made the dance? If we had made the dance, would so many on this board want Chambers gone?
Now I know Chambers is responsible for development of a good bench and our's was not very deep. With a deep bench, would we not have been able to win another four or five wins? Now why don't we have a deep bench? I saw a significant upgrade in talent when Chambers broke into big city talent. That is the beginning and the follow-on is likely an upgrade in bench.
Why is the bigger city talent necessary? The big cities are where the better talent comes from. Steel sharpens steel! Deeper competition develops athletes. Does anyone believe DeChellis didn't want big city talent? I think he did, but he couldn't convince them to leave the big metropolitan areas for "hayseed" (sic) State College and a school with no basketball tradition. We now have a cadre of big city athletes who will likely sing the praises of Penn State and will probably help land future big metropolitan basketball talent.
On to the issue of should Chambers be gone if we don't make "dance" next year. What should happen if we have several injuries or sickness or scholastic problems and we don't make the "dance". Should Chambers be gone for issues outside his control? The point I'm making is we should not make a predetermined decision today while not knowing what could happen next year.
I see a man in Chambers who is upgrading our basketball program and as long as there is continued improvement, we stick with him.
One last issue. I see a lot of criticism of Chambers in-game coaching. Is it not arrogant for us who do not make a living coaching and do not work hours with the athletes to criticize Chambers and his staff for those in-game adjustments? Didn't we see a whole lot of criticism of Franklin's in-game coaching, early on?
I also have that program! And a coin that says it was PSU's first Big Ten game. It was great. College sports have, in my view, really gone downhill since those days. Although they were already on a bad trajectory even then. Too much coverage, and the sports media keeps getting weirder.
I won't argue about his game management, it certainly leaves a lot to be desired. I think he's improved, but he's got a ways to go.
If we stop showing progress and I can't see where the future remains brighter than the present, I'll be right with you demanding change. I wanted Dunn fired after the Sweet Sixteen run because I knew where we going from there. I wanted Ed gone when he left on his own. I don't just hold on because my glasses are shaded. I just genuinely believe Pat is doing a good job building the program in a way that's sustainable, showing incremental improvements annually. I'll gladly say let's move on as soon as I don't see that anymore, as I did with other coaches.
Making the NCAA is not the only measure of a good season. For me, the reason Pat is on thin ice is his performance in the B1G conference. 11th place, 12th place, 10th place, 13th place, 10th place, 12th place, 6th place.
This season was fine (6th) but a major outlier. Meaning all the other seasons were completely horrible. If he could finish in 5th place or better each of the next two years that would be success, IMO. But, drop back to the bottom half next year and there's no way to justify continuing.
Injuries and suspensions aren't an excuse this far into a tenure. Year 2 okay not year 7. Recruit better--have depth. It isn't like we without these guys for 12 games. We couldn't even hold it together for a couple weeks.
All coaches make questionable calls. Including Saban. But the good ones find a way to overcome their mistakes. Eventually you have to win games. I think that time has come and gone.
There's no excuse next year. He better win and win big throughout the season. 500 isn't acceptable next year in conference play. An NIT birth isn't acceptable. They need to make the NCAAs and be very competitive.
Have the coin as well! Need to get my basement set up to display all the memorabilia.
This is exactly right. You just kind of knew Dunn and DeChellis would never really take it to the next level. I still feel like Pat could, so it's way different.
Even though that S16 team was Dunn's, everyone sort of knew Dunn was the Toonces the Cat of Big Ten coaches; driving the program straight towards a cliff. In hindsight, I don't solely blame Dunn. People may not remember this but Dunn was constantly trying to get out of PSU before the S16 run. He interviewed for South Carolina and Tulane around 2000. Something was very wrong with the dynamic between the AD and the basketball program. The fact that Ed DeChellis later quit his alma mater to take a 50 percent pay cut and go to Navy was definitive proof of this problem.
Something about all the weed his team brought to my party at the hotel the night we lost to Temple also told me maybe this wasn't going to end well. And the players told me the practices were a joke to them.
Hurley makes $1.15mm. By comparison, Steve Pikell at Rutgers makes $1.6mm. If Annie can't come up with the cash she needs to go.
The Temple coach says Tony Carr got $40,000 to sign with PSU. Are u sure Chambers is playing by the rules?
No it's not. Myself and a few others on this board coach at least at the HS level. (17 years in HS for me + 2 as D3 college asst). I have a pretty successful HS program but I still go to coaching clinics yearly. I pay for my staff to go too. We watch college practices of all levels, I try to get better every year. I know thats not always available for college coaches but its something that they need to do. One of the best things I ever heard at a clinic back in 2008 was BIlly Donovan, not so much his info but how he said he likes doing the clinics to see what everyone else is doing.
If a coach who had come off of back to back championships goes to clinics to learn from other coaches, then surely guys who dont win can learn some things too.
This to me is the big unknown. What is Penn State’s objective when it comes to the Men’s basketball program? Is it a cash cow, where maximizing profit is the primary objective? If so, “Annie’s” coach”s salary budget is less than 1 million and she is not going to land a coach that will compete for Big Ten championships and make the tournament most years. I honestly don’t know.
That's a very good question. To put it in perspective, PSU basketball reports a nice surplus, but is underwater, big time, when revenue distribution from the Big Ten, to which PSU BB contributes bupkis, is eliminated. In contrast, a program like Ohio State returns far greater profit. Primary reason: ticket sales. OSU reports about $6mm, PSU $822k.
Could PSU do better in this regard? Sure, put a winning basketball team on the floor and ticket sales should increase. But by how much? OSU has the advantage of being in a large population center, PSU isn't. So how much should PSU invest in at attempt to garner more revenue? There is no easy answer. Conducting a market survey to assess the potential fan base is a good start. Doubt that this has been done or we probably would have heard about it.
So it boils down to if you build it, will they come? If not, it will continue to be more of the same, with the only objective to collect the check from the Big Ten.
I honestly believe that a consistently winning team would lead to a significant increase in ticket sales. The Big Ten Saturday games would have good attendance. We’ve seen that this year and in other years when Penn State has fielded a decent team. Weeknight game in mid January, not so much, but if a consistently winning program means a significant increase in season ticket sales, it doesn’t matter. Penn State will see the revenue from those sales even if the ticket holders don’t drive up from Pittsburgh or Philly for those midweek games.
For proof, look no further than wrestling. I could be wrong as I don’t follow wrestling much, but before Cael came and started winning national championships, my guess is that no one was talking about moving the matches out of Rec Hall.
That's an interesting way to deflect the question. I would predict that you wouldn't complain about how bad of a coach he is (a barometer that I'm sure you have spent significant time constructing) because of the Rider and Wisconsin games if just the result is different. Which makes me think you are operating under a bad premise.
Over the course of a 31+ game season, there will be random events that occur that lead to bad outcomes. Penn State would beat Rider or Wisconsin the vast majority of times they play over a longer sample, but they wouldn't beat them 100% of the time. Why is that? Because we know Penn State is a better team, especially at home.
According to Bart Torvik's site, Penn State was a 72% favorite against Wisconsin in the BJC, so while they were the favorite, they would still lose 28% of the time. All 28% of those occurrences aren't through coaching errors. Penn State was a 92% favorite against Rider in the BJC, so while PSU is a huge favorite, they are still losing essentially 1 out of every 10 games in this scenario. Just because 1 out of those 10 games occurred at the end of December does not mean that Pat Chambers is a bad coach or below average in the Big Ten.
I don't disagree. I also don't believe that the hiring decisions are entirely driven by money. Top coaches at major programs tend to stay put. That leaves successful coaches from the mid majors or top assistants from the majors. That's a model followed by a lot of schools. It brought DeChellis and Chambers to PSU, though I wouldn't characterize either as obvious choices from the pool described. Would be interesting to know who else was contacted/interviewed during those coaching searches.
You are the one making a premise that "Penn State would beat Rider or Wisconsin the vast majority of times they play over a longer sample". I DO NOT believe that to be true with Chambers directing the PSU team.
I do believe that the talent that was on the PSU team when PSU played Rider and Wisconsin should beat each of those teams the vast majority of times, with better coaching and especially game management. That is the point.
Yes, there will always be games where game flow, circumstances such as foul calls, make a game that should be won a loss. And likewise these same circumstances sometimes make a game that should be lost a win.
But from watching PSU BB under coach Chambers I believe his lack of game day skills turns the tide against PSU, and more of those games that should be won are actually lost. Or in more simplistic terms, Chambers' teams seem to underachieve, even now that he actually has assembled the talent to win against the schedule his team plays. Hence, I do not believe it should come down to having to make every free throw, or hitting big shots to end the game, in order to beat those sorry teams, as someone else suggested.....
Again, you are what your record says you are, and seven years without an NCAA tournament says you're fired.
Lot of interesting takes on Chambers and his progress.. he certainly has made progress. The starting lineup looks like a Big Ten lineup athletically. The games vs Ohio State and Michigan at the BJC resembled a big time basketball environment. It was a lot of fun being in the building again. PSU played in big games this season in February.
I'm torn. I've always liked Chambers but it felt like the first half of this season it was better players doing the same things to lose games. The Wisconsin loss was inexcusable. Rider stole one. They had a good team. Our guys were in the middle of crappy non conference games with no fans in the stands. I almost get that one. Wisconsin had won something like 13 straight vs Penn State. We just came off a good road win at Iowa to start the conference season. We had a chance to be 2-0 and sit at the top of the conference through all of December. The team should've been ready to clobber these guys. Instead we came out with zero energy and dug a 17 point hole to a team that had just lost by 30 at home a few days earlier. We play 8 good minutes of basketball and almost pull it off but now we sit at 1-1 for 4 weeks and let a home game get stolen. The sense of urgency didn't come until too late. Huge early lead at NC State before falling apart. Led at Maryland late and then couldn't score the last 6 minutes of the game. Led at Northwestern before scoring 2 points in the last 7 minutes and losing. Overcome a huge deficit vs a beat up Minnesota team to get to overtime and then get pounded in OT. Huge opportunity at Purdue and Chambers doesn't get Watkins back in until a minute to go rather than have him back in with 4-5 minutes to go with 4 fouls.
But with all that, the team came around and played some good basketball and beat Ohio State without Watkins. The team stayed together when they looked frustrated. They endured losing Reaves and then Watkins. Chambers has to get credit for that. There were some positives. I thought before the season it was NCAA or bust so I'm disappointed but they were just a little short not terribly short. It's a failure in my opinion but not one where there's nothing to build on. Next year should be fun. If it's another 9-9 and no tournament, Chambers has to go. Not sure who would support keeping him at that point. Fix the damn non conference schedule, be top half in the conference and get to the dance. The guys we have do play a very entertaining style at times. And perhaps that success can translate to further recruiting success and the program can sustain itself as a yearly contender to be in the NCAA tournament. I want more big games like this past season vs Ohio State and Michigan. That really was fun again.
I'm torn. I've always liked Chambers but it felt like the first half of this season it was better players doing the same things to lose games. The Wisconsin loss was inexcusable. Rider stole one. They had a good team. Our guys were in the middle of crappy non conference games with no fans in the stands. I almost get that one. Wisconsin had won something like 13 straight vs Penn State. We just came off a good road win at Iowa to start the conference season. We had a chance to be 2-0 and sit at the top of the conference through all of December. The team should've been ready to clobber these guys. Instead we came out with zero energy and dug a 17 point hole to a team that had just lost by 30 at home a few days earlier. We play 8 good minutes of basketball and almost pull it off but now we sit at 1-1 for 4 weeks and let a home game get stolen. The sense of urgency didn't come until too late. Huge early lead at NC State before falling apart. Led at Maryland late and then couldn't score the last 6 minutes of the game. Led at Northwestern before scoring 2 points in the last 7 minutes and losing. Overcome a huge deficit vs a beat up Minnesota team to get to overtime and then get pounded in OT. Huge opportunity at Purdue and Chambers doesn't get Watkins back in until a minute to go rather than have him back in with 4-5 minutes to go with 4 fouls.
But with all that, the team came around and played some good basketball and beat Ohio State without Watkins. The team stayed together when they looked frustrated. They endured losing Reaves and then Watkins. Chambers has to get credit for that. There were some positives. I thought before the season it was NCAA or bust so I'm disappointed but they were just a little short not terribly short. It's a failure in my opinion but not one where there's nothing to build on. Next year should be fun. If it's another 9-9 and no tournament, Chambers has to go. Not sure who would support keeping him at that point. Fix the damn non conference schedule, be top half in the conference and get to the dance. The guys we have do play a very entertaining style at times. And perhaps that success can translate to further recruiting success and the program can sustain itself as a yearly contender to be in the NCAA tournament. I want more big games like this past season vs Ohio State and Michigan. That really was fun again.
Let’s hope the next 10 years is pay dirt fo4 hoops program. I’m glad we’ve patiently waited. NIT 4 seed Inst to shabby in yea 7 or 8. More kids from Philly will get Penn State to Final Four one day.
So glad you do! BTW, Atlanta media said yesterday that Georgia confirmed that they had offered their men's BB HC position to none other than Thad Matta (he's currently deciding whether to take the job or not). It was also said that Georgia had discussions with Tom Crean.
But I didn't read anything about Georgia contacting Pat Chambers.
