Daytona 500

[OaktonDave]

Yep. Haven't decided if I'm going yet. I'm lucky as my wife is a dirt big dirt track fan. She's a Lucas fan, I'm Lance. Shame about Hodnett one of the nicest guys in the sport. Go Pa Posse!

I won't make it until later in the year (son's baseball is already starting up), but I'm already looking forward to it. My dad started taking me to Selinsgrove every week when I was 4 and I grew up idolizing guys like Mitch Smith, Bobbie Adamson, and Jan Opperman. Lynn Paxton's family used to sit next to us when he raced a S'grove. Fifty years and 32 years in the DC 'burbs later, I still love it. I was a Hodnett fan and liked it when he raced Lincoln - Port's too far for a day trip. We'll see who I'm cheering for by August. but I'm never upset when Lance or Lucas win.

 

[massimoManca II]

The whole idea is to keep your car "clean" for the first 450 miles so that when the last 50 roll around, you're position to challenge for the win. The average person who doesn't know NASCAR from their asshole can't equate this from "boring" racing. You don't win the race in the first segment by going all out and taking yours and other cars out of it. Before segment racing, a lot of the smarter drivers would "sandbag" meaning they would drop back in the middle or end of the pack for the first 3/4 of the race just to keep their cars out of the crashes that were sure to occur up front. Segment racing changed that to an extent, forcing drivers to step up for most of the race. People who criticize NASCAR races apparently never drove 190-200 MPH with cars 6 inches to the side or directly on their front or rear bumper. They don't understand down force or drafting with other cars. I will bet that the strongest critics here never took the time to see what goes into NASCAR besides "just watching cars go in circles". I remember watching a F1 race seversl years ago where an unknown driver wound up leading a race up until the final lap where he was ORDERED to let his better known teammate pass him to win. That never happens in NASCAR. It's not perfect, it has it's warts, but it is American born and bred.

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Ummm I already know how segment-racing “works” .... wanted to hear your thoughts on yesterday’s race ....

 

[WDLion]

I won't make it until later in the year (son's baseball is already starting up), but I'm already looking forward to it. My dad started taking me to Selinsgrove every week when I was 4 and I grew up idolizing guys like Mitch Smith, Bobbie Adamson, and Jan Opperman. Lynn Paxton's family used to sit next to us when he raced a S'grove. Fifty years and 32 years in the DC 'burbs later, I still love it. I was a Hodnett fan and liked it when he raced Lincoln - Port's too far for a day trip. We'll see who I'm cheering for by August. but I'm never upset when Lance or Lucas win.

 

[WDLion]

I'm from the same era. Ray Tilley, Check Adams fan, 88 and 88. My first dirt track experience was midgets during Bloomsburg Fair week way back in the 50s. No school the Friday of fair week.
I'm located north of Selinsgrove, Milton area.

 

[TheBumble]

When competing on short tracks, you spend 90% of your time trying to get the car setup to both enter and exit the turn well. There's a ton of variables that can be played with. On dirt, track conditions are always changing so it's a constant challenge night after night.

Who in their right mind said, "You know how we could make this better? Let's pave the track and make it a 2.5 mile long, steep banked oval so we just keep er floored the whole way around. You won't be able to pass unless you have help from someone else."

 

[harbest]

Ummm I already know how segment-racing “works” .... wanted to hear your thoughts on yesterday’s race ....

Typical Daytona/Talladega/plate race, keep the car out of trouble and try to be in the front pack after the last pit stop. A couple of idiots made dumb moves causing wrecks. Understanding how cars are set up and how they move in the draft, I enjoyed the race. I thought if Menard stayed out of trouble, he had the best car. If Logano is on the outside on the last restart, he might have had a shot too. People who don't understand the basics of NASCAR can say it was boring, I beg to differ. IMO, when it comes to basketball/hockey/ golf, I'd rather watch paint dry and if it's golf, I'll do the painting.

 

[royboy]

Typical Daytona/Talladega/plate race, keep the car out of trouble and try to be in the front pack after the last pit stop. A couple of idiots made dumb moves causing wrecks. Understanding how cars are set up and how they move in the draft, I enjoyed the race. I thought if Menard stayed out of trouble, he had the best car. If Logano is on the outside on the last restart, he might have had a shot too. People who don't understand the basics of NASCAR can say it was boring, I beg to differ. IMO, when it comes to basketball/hockey/ golf, I'd rather watch paint dry and if it's golf, I'll do the painting.

I'm not anti-NASCAR by any means; I watch occasionally and I want to see this NC-based sport do well.

But when the biggest race of the season takes over 2 hours to run the last 30 or so laps, it's not good entertainment IMO.

 

[WDLion]

Typical Daytona/Talladega/plate race, keep the car out of trouble and try to be in the front pack after the last pit stop. A couple of idiots made dumb moves causing wrecks. Understanding how cars are set up and how they move in the draft, I enjoyed the race. I thought if Menard stayed out of trouble, he had the best car. If Logano is on the outside on the last restart, he might have had a shot too. People who don't understand the basics of NASCAR can say it was boring, I beg to differ. IMO, when it comes to basketball/hockey/ golf, I'd rather watch paint dry and if it's golf, I'll do the painting.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[NittPicker]

NASCAR = Redneck

It’s a stupid event for Budweiser swilling Neanderthals who put decals of numbers on the back windshields of their pick up trucks. No thanks.
I’d rather watch cricket. At least they have a tea interval.

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Yeah. It's a good thing fans of other sports don't go crazy with their vehicles like that......

 

[massimoManca II]

Typical Daytona/Talladega/plate race, keep the car out of trouble and try to be in the front pack after the last pit stop. A couple of idiots made dumb moves causing wrecks. Understanding how cars are set up and how they move in the draft, I enjoyed the race. I thought if Menard stayed out of trouble, he had the best car. If Logano is on the outside on the last restart, he might have had a shot too. People who don't understand the basics of NASCAR can say it was boring, I beg to differ. IMO, when it comes to basketball/hockey/ golf, I'd rather watch paint dry and if it's golf, I'll do the painting.

I understand the basics of NASCAR. It was boring... particularly watching them sit on the tarmac

i just don’t remember it that way when I was a kid watching guys like Cale Yarborough and Buddy Baker in their wailing Cutlass’ (with real headlight bezels and grills)

 

[cment]

The Yellow/caution flag mysteriously raised for a “crap on the track” appearing for a piece of 4inch Saran-wrap is what has killed NASCAR first. Nascar got wise that fans were on to them for artificially regrouping the grid and went to the BS stages, but still throw the “crap on the track” caution all too often. The COT (for reasons stated above) is the second reason. COT was a solution to keep team expenses down, but has had a bad long-term affect on the series.

 

[harbest]

I understand the basics of NASCAR. It was boring... particularly watching them sit on the tarmac

i just don’t remember it that way when I was a kid watching guys like Cale Yarborough and Buddy Baker in their wailing Cutlass’ (with real headlight bezels and grills)

You don't remember it because it wasn't until 1979 that a full race was on TV. CBS carried the 1979 Daytona 500 and that was the first NASCAR race carried live from green flag to checkered flag. Before that, you only saw edited highlights on Wide World of Sports.

 

[harbest]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Last time I looked, this was America where we are all entitled to our own opinions.

 

[PearlSUJam]

The Yellow/caution flag mysteriously raised for a “crap on the track” appearing for a piece of 4inch Saran-wrap is what has killed NASCAR first. Nascar got wise that fans were on to them for artificially regrouping the grid and went to the BS stages, but still throw the “crap on the track” caution all too often. The COT (for reasons stated above) is the second reason. COT was a solution to keep team expenses down, but has had a bad long-term affect on the series.

Yes. Truth.

 

[massimoManca II]

You don't remember it because it wasn't until 1979 that a full race was on TV. CBS carried the 1979 Daytona 500 and that was the first NASCAR race carried live from green flag to checkered flag. Before that, you only saw edited highlights on Wide World of Sports.

They would have done well to distill those 510 miles down to about 50...

#shitshow

 

[PSUinCali]

I love the race but it doesn't have the personality it used to have, IMHO. Too many drivers want to act like badasses which is easy to do when they're safety strapped inside their cars. The reality is very few of them would actually challenge anyone face to face and even when they do they make sure crew members are around to make a show of pretending to hold them back. Give me the good old days when if someone had a problem with another driver they'd confront them after the race. None of this garbage with them throwing shade during an interview or tweeting something mean about the other guy.

The race is generally pretty boring nowadays. I'm ashamed to admit I watch to see the big wrecks as long as nobody gets hurt.

I kind of disagree with you here. Yes, the wrecks were great and are the ratings bringer, but I thought some of the racing and strategy were pretty good at times....always admire the skills, reflexes and hand-to-eye athletic ability it must take to hang for four hours or more in bumper-to-bumper traffic at 200 mph...add in the fact that if you are not fearless...one has no business climbing into one of those cars....bring on Atlanta Motor Speedway next week!!!

 

[Obliviax]

The Yellow/caution flag mysteriously raised for a “crap on the track” appearing for a piece of 4inch Saran-wrap is what has killed NASCAR first. Nascar got wise that fans were on to them for artificially regrouping the grid and went to the BS stages, but still throw the “crap on the track” caution all too often. The COT (for reasons stated above) is the second reason. COT was a solution to keep team expenses down, but has had a bad long-term affect on the series.

I thought COT was to try and even up the teaching teams. The money teams were dominating so they wanted to get more competition. Having said that, Gibbs went 1 2 & 3

 

[massimoManca II]

I thought COT was to try and even up the teaching teams. The money teams were dominating so they wanted to get more competition. Having said that, Gibbs went 1 2 & 3

Based on the development timeline of the COT, it was clearly about safety (or at least giving an impression it was concerned about safety - more like lawsuits, primarily) as NASCAR suddenly began scrambling to appear concerned about driver-safety after DE3 ...

Selling such an investment to team-owners involved the windfall reduced research&development expenses long-term... not that NASCAR was anything like F1 anyways... but what they got was spec-car racing... the rules are silly now

I’m sure there existed savings for NASCAR as well, avoiding the need to constantly produce regulatory templates every couple years when a Lumina or a Taurus changed its sheetmetal/panels/silhouette

 

[WDLion]

Last time I looked, this was America where we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Agree. Thank you.

 

[Obliviax]

Based on the development timeline of the COT, it was clearly about safety (or at least giving an impression it was concerned about safety - more like lawsuits, primarily) as NASCAR suddenly began scrambling to appear concerned about driver-safety after DE3 ...

Selling such an investment to team-owners involved the windfall reduced research&development expenses long-term... not that NASCAR was anything like F1 anyways... but what they got was spec-car racing... the rules are silly now

I’m sure there existed savings for NASCAR as well, avoiding the need to constantly produce regulatory templates every couple years when a Lumina or a Taurus changed its sheetmetal/panels/silhouette

reminds me of the old IROC racing. the idea was to standardize a car and have drivers from all types race to see who was best. The cars were rotated so that no driver had the same car. One year, a white IROC Z won just about every race and it was clear the differences were in the car, not the driver.

Regardless, NASCAR is simply a shadow of what it once was from an entertainment and fan standpoint. you won't find many that disagree.

 

[massimoManca II]

reminds me of the old IROC racing. the idea was to standardize a car and have drivers from all types race to see who was best. The cars were rotated so that no driver had the same car. One year, a white IROC Z won just about every race and it was clear the differences were in the car, not the driver.

Regardless, NASCAR is simply a shadow of what it once was from an entertainment and fan standpoint. you won't find many that disagree.

Yep, i recall watching IROC as a kid and nobody really gave a crap about it

 

[mcm265]

Me and my wife went down for the race this year (our first Daytona 500) and thought it was really great.
I'm a big racing fan (dirt & Nascar mostly) and go to a bunch of races a year. My two cents...

Nascar is still the big leagues and has a great product. They sold out for corporate money and foolishly fell in love with top speeds. The most "competitive" racing is done somewhere in the 70%-80% speed spectrum. The superspeedways are all 95% and up. I think the more competitive the track (slower, dynamic) the more personalities will come out. Dale Earnhardt would've never got the nickname "The Intimidator" by sitting in the draft at a 1.5 mile superspeedway every week in 1982.

Sprint car racing is thriving right now because of dynamic tracks that aren't catering to top speed. The "Chili Bowl" is one of the slowest/smallest tracks in the world and people buy a ticket to SIT IN ANOTHER ROOM to watch on a TV.

I know Nascar has contracts and money invested into a bunch of these newer tracks but they need to think outside the box. The "Roval" was a good proof of concept that making changes can be successful. It's not the "Stages" or the "Phatom Cautions" that have doomed Nascar. It's the dynamic racing.

 

[WDLion]

Me and my wife went down for the race this year (our first Daytona 500) and thought it was really great.
I'm a big racing fan (dirt & Nascar mostly) and go to a bunch of races a year. My two cents...

Nascar is still the big leagues and has a great product. They sold out for corporate money and foolishly fell in love with top speeds. The most "competitive" racing is done somewhere in the 70%-80% speed spectrum. The superspeedways are all 95% and up. I think the more competitive the track (slower, dynamic) the more personalities will come out. Dale Earnhardt would've never got the nickname "The Intimidator" by sitting in the draft at a 1.5 mile superspeedway every week in 1982.

Sprint car racing is thriving right now because of dynamic tracks that aren't catering to top speed. The "Chili Bowl" is one of the slowest/smallest tracks in the world and people buy a ticket to SIT IN ANOTHER ROOM to watch on a TV.

I know Nascar has contracts and money invested into a bunch of these newer tracks but they need to think outside the box. The "Roval" was a good proof of concept that making changes can be successful. It's not the "Stages" or the "Phatom Cautions" that have doomed Nascar. It's the dynamic racing.

Me and my wife went down for the race this year (our first Daytona 500) and thought it was really great.
I'm a big racing fan (dirt & Nascar mostly) and go to a bunch of races a year. My two cents...

Nascar is still the big leagues and has a great product. They sold out for corporate money and foolishly fell in love with top speeds. The most "competitive" racing is done somewhere in the 70%-80% speed spectrum. The superspeedways are all 95% and up. I think the more competitive the track (slower, dynamic) the more personalities will come out. Dale Earnhardt would've never got the nickname "The Intimidator" by sitting in the draft at a 1.5 mile superspeedway every week in 1982.

Sprint car racing is thriving right now because of dynamic tracks that aren't catering to top speed. The "Chili Bowl" is one of the slowest/smallest tracks in the world and people buy a ticket to SIT IN ANOTHER ROOM to watch on a TV.

I know Nascar has contracts and money invested into a bunch of these newer tracks but they need to think outside the box. The "Roval" was a good proof of concept that making changes can be successful. It's not the "Stages" or the "Phatom Cautions" that have doomed Nascar. It's the dynamic racing.

To me sprint car racing is the best racing on the planet.
This video is a 3/8 mile track. Average lap speeds exceed 100mph, 120s on the straights.
On half miles these cars will turn lap speeds in the 120s, 140 on the straights.

 

[MJG-90]

Based on the development timeline of the COT, it was clearly about safety (or at least giving an impression it was concerned about safety - more like lawsuits, primarily) as NASCAR suddenly began scrambling to appear concerned about driver-safety after DE3 ...

DE3 died in 2001. That was the last death in the top NASCAR series (maybe all NASCAR series). Say what you want, the cars and the tracks are clearly much safer now than ever before.

 

[mcm265]

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To me sprint car racing is the best racing on the planet.
This video is a 3/8 mile track. Average lap speeds exceed 100mph, 120s on the straights.
On half miles these cars will turn lap speeds in the 120s, 140 on the straights.

Sprint cars are my #1. Been going to Lernerville since 1984. And ironically, Lincoln is my favorite track to visit. But to your point (I think), those cars are hardly 95% of their speed capacity all the way around the track. I think that cornering speeds are below 100 specifically at Lincoln. But it's apples to oranges because the track surface allows for a completely different strategy of driving.

Nascar doesn't have the luxury of a dynamic surface to allow for multiple driving styles or setups. The only way to break up the train is to get guys out of the gas on into the brake some.

 

[MJG-90]

The only way to break up the train is to get guys out of the gas on into the brake some.

This is why Pocono and Indy are not restrictor plate races too. Not enough banking so guys can't just hold the pedal to the floor all the way around the track. I don't mind how these races work. I enjoy seeing the different styles of racing. I do wish they'd bring back more of the shorter tracks and get rid of some of the cookie cutter track races. I'd love to see a good mix of half mile tracks, one mile tracks, 1.5 mile tracks, 2.5 mile tracks, restrictor plate tracks, road tracks, and whatever else they could mix in there. A full season of variety would really generate a true champion. Of course they'd have to go back to the old point system. Or at least the older playoff point system.

 

[WDLion]

Sprint cars are my #1. Been going to Lernerville since 1984. And ironically, Lincoln is my favorite track to visit. But to your point (I think), those cars are hardly 95% of their speed capacity all the way around the track. I think that cornering speeds are below 100 specifically at Lincoln. But it's apples to oranges because the track surface allows for a completely different strategy of driving.

Nascar doesn't have the luxury of a dynamic surface to allow for multiple driving styles or setups. The only way to break up the train is to get guys out of the gas on into the brake some.

I didn't say they went through the turns at 100. I said lap speeds are 100mph. Faster on the straights slower through turns.

 

[mcm265]

I didn't say they went through the turns at 100. I said lap speeds are 100mph. Faster on the straights slower through turns.

Yeah, we're on the same page. The variety of speeds between straightaways and corners is one of the great dynamics of dirt track racing. You get it all.

 

[harbest]

Agree. Thank you.

You are welcome. There can be nothing better on an internet message board than sane, competent, honest discussion.

 

[WDLion]

Yeah, we're on the same page. The variety of speeds between straightaways and corners is one of the great dynamics of dirt track racing. You get it all.

The best thing about dirt turns is they don't let off and coast through the turns. It's hammer down and let the slide scrub off speed.

 

[mcm265]

The best thing about dirt turns is they don't let off and coast through the turns. It's hammer down and let the slide scrub off speed.

In some cases, that's true - mostly early in the evening with a heavy track. But in many cases, drivers are setting up the corners by dragging brake and feathering throttle through the apex. It's not really a binary throttle ON/OFF scenario but backing down the throttle to reduce wheel spin and grip (primarily later as the track slicks off). Again, I know what you mean and you're correct - but for those not familiar with dirt track racing just a minor explanation.

 

[gamblepsu]

TV ratings began to drop like an anvil (as a result of drivers laying back and not fighting for all 500 miles, in the case of Daytona, likewise these snooze-fest drafting chains from lap5 into the last ten laps) Nascar concocted stages to thwart viewership tendencies to tune in only to the last part of the race, as that was the only exciting part ...

That andvwhen our favorite network dropped it (espn) they pretty much stopped all coverage/reporting. I didn’t even realize it was on until I saw it on my guide later in the race.

 

[Ct. Lion]

I winter in the Daytona area in NSB. We meet lots of race fans and they are a really mixed group of people. One of my best friends has the same tickets every year and sometimes I go. We have parking in a private spot within walking distance of the track so the logistical part is easy. The one impression I got from my first race is that to really appreciate the speed and sounds you have to be there in person. It doesn't translate well to TV.

 

[WDLion]

In some cases, that's true - mostly early in the evening with a heavy track. But in many cases, drivers are setting up the corners by dragging brake and feathering throttle through the apex. It's not really a binary throttle ON/OFF scenario but backing down the throttle to reduce wheel spin and grip (primarily later as the track slicks off). Again, I know what you mean and you're correct - but for those not familiar with dirt track racing just a minor explanation.

Depends on track conditions banking and size. On the bigger half miles not much braking.