Looks like Verizon wants to locate equipment on our property (12'x20' pad & equipment) to support tower equipment to be located on an elect. transmission tower already on our property within a utility right of way.
Anyone here negotiate a cell tower lease?
- Thread starter GregInPitt
- Start date
No but fascinated to hear what you can get on that. Maybe a percent of profits? I jest but very interesting…
too many variables that are market specific (location, alternative locations ect) to give you information. I would consult a local real estate attorney who may have experience or one of the national attorney who deal with these things.
I would start with free unlimited cell phone and free unlimited Fios TV/Internet for life as a starting point and work up from there.
Thanks for the link. There was a link on that site to Verizon lease specifics which is very helpful. And also average lease rates by location throughout the U.S. which was interesting. In our township homeowners have fought against the building of new towers that some neighborhoods considered eye sores, and fought against them in court. So it would make sense that Verizon would try and use existing towers to avoid the headaches of trying to build new one's. So I may have some leverage in that regard.
Edit: when I spoke with the 3rd party rep that contacted us he admitted that it is virtually impossible to build a new cell tower in our township.
I also talked with our township Director of Planning and Community Development who explained the permitting of such equipment and now have a call in to the organization that reached out to me on Verizon's behalf in order to see exactly what they are proposing.
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I might go for the unlimited FIOS as we've had FIOS for years. Our township was one of the first, maybe the first, areas of Pittsburgh where Verizon installed fiber. But that seems like a throw in to get a negotiated deal signed by us, after we come to cash stream numbers.
It's interesting that last summer I finally got fed up with the lack of cell service right in our home in the heart of the suburbs and spent (i.e. wasted) around 20 hours trying to get verizon to debug the problem. They screwed up my bill trying to move me to 5G towers, and I eventually got them to change my SIM card, but nothing worked so I fired them (wireless, not FIOS) and went to T-Mobile, which I'm extremely happy with. I even get T-Mobile service at our hunting camp where Verizon service was about nil. So in effect my complaint may have helped motivate them to approach me to improve the service in our area and may pay for nice retirement toys....... Only in America.
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The Town of Mooresville NC leases cell phone service on water towers. My brother-in-law leases billboards along 322 towards State College . He gets hundreds of dollars a month for the billboards. Think you can make out very well if you do your research.
strange negotiating strategy - starting low and working your way up.
j/k… I know what you mean but I just couldn’t resist the snarky reply!
Greg, not sure where in Pittsburgh you live, but I lived in USC the past 12 years and just moved across the county border to Peters. I can likely help you out if your in that part of the area.
A cell tower lease would be very long term. Get an inflation rider in it as no one knows how bad inflation will get.
Require indemnification and remediation of any damages to you or neighbors.
In addition to the pad, it will require fencing and access road and/or parking.
Require vegtative screenings like shrubs and/or trees tomobcpa rue veil and reduce any noise it generates. Also helps reduce any impact on home value.
Will it include a back up generator? Type of fuel? Fuel storage Control of pollution?
Require indemnification and remediation of any damages to you or neighbors.
In addition to the pad, it will require fencing and access road and/or parking.
Require vegtative screenings like shrubs and/or trees tomobcpa rue veil and reduce any noise it generates. Also helps reduce any impact on home value.
Will it include a back up generator? Type of fuel? Fuel storage Control of pollution?
Cell Tower Lease (Rates, Agreements, Buyout, Value)
Cell tower lease rates showcase the multi-decade relationship between the wireless carriers leasing space from the tower companies who rent infrastructure.
dgtlinfra.com
What if technology evolution surpasses the need for Verizon to use this tower 5-10-20 years down the road? I would request for as much $ upfront for using the already in use electric transmission tower. Make it worth it for you. You owe them no favors.
Thanks. I had found that exact resource peviously. The comments about urban and suburban areas is pretty applicable as the last tower added in our area near housing was fought tooth & nail by nearby residents, and the advocate for Verizon in our conversation yesterday even mentioned that it is almost impossible to erect a new cell tower in our township. So Verizon's plan to use the transmission tower may be their only option. Obviously there are a number of transmission towers along the high voltage line but their engineers have chosen the one on our property as the one that can most improve service, fill in the gap in their current tower map.
Verizon will have to compensate the owner of the transmission line tower as well, but they may already know what that will cost them.
Your comment on the technology possibly being obsolete going forward made me think to ask for some language in the lease regarding timely and complete site remediation before any breakage of the lease should Verizon want to terminate the lease as provided for in the lease. Something they may already include as I haven't gotten their actual proposal yet, but thanks.
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W
Another issue…. Make sure the pad has limited use. As in limit it to transformer and/or generator.
In gas leases there is what is called a granting clause. Reads something like ‘the grantor grants the grantee the right to access property for construction of pad, drilling of well, access road, power line, pipeline and whatever is necessary to market the gas.
This open ended clause allows them to do whatever they deem necessary. Strike any clause with language similar.
Ask them exactly what they plan on placing on the pad then limit them to that. And if they need or want to add equipment in the future make sure they need to negotiate a new agreement to do so. Don’t allow them the right to add additional equipment without approval and compensation.
Good idea to have clause for removal should it not be used.
Another issue…. Make sure the pad has limited use. As in limit it to transformer and/or generator.
In gas leases there is what is called a granting clause. Reads something like ‘the grantor grants the grantee the right to access property for construction of pad, drilling of well, access road, power line, pipeline and whatever is necessary to market the gas.
This open ended clause allows them to do whatever they deem necessary. Strike any clause with language similar.
Ask them exactly what they plan on placing on the pad then limit them to that. And if they need or want to add equipment in the future make sure they need to negotiate a new agreement to do so. Don’t allow them the right to add additional equipment without approval and compensation.
Thanks for the response and information. The limited use restriction is something I hadn't considered. And the info on "open ended" clause.
I have found a resource that describes the typical Verizon lease agreement and it includes returning the property to the pre-lease condition. But I would want the lease payments to continue until both parties agree that that condition has been met.
I'm also the party to a gas lease at our hunting camp property and with a gas pad the gas company obviously needs a road as access so it's pretty straight forward as to what they require and their responsibility to improve roads to what they require. In my case I don't want them using my new driveway for access, but on the other hand they'll no doubt screw up my lawn within the right-of-way during construction of the pad and I'd require timely repairing any damage to the lawn or trees as part of the lease. And I'd require them using a pumper to get the concrete from the street to the site to keep them from backing a concrete truck up the right of way lawn. Lots of details to include, but before retirement I did review and evaluations of large project planning for a large industrial company so It's all coming back to me.......... slowly.
Thanks for the issues to consider.
It seems the typical Verizon lease begins with five 5-year renewable by V leases, with 5 more that can be renewed by both parties agreeing. In today's inflationary environment I'd surely want some yearly escalation included. My FIOS bill just went up over 10%.
In speaking with our Community Development Director, he mentioned that fencing would be included but that they could install shrubs to conceal the pad & equipment. I would just have to specify something that the deer would not find tasty. The 3rd party rep for Verizon also mentioned landscaping to hide the pad and equipment.
Interesting comment about the backup generator. There is no way that I'd allow a road up through the right of way, and I don't believe Duquesne Light or the township would either. No place for parking either. So that issue will be interesting to see if it's included and how they would deal with it.
Thanks again!
Yes. A road to a pad is reasonable for a gas lease as is a pipe. But the clause saying “whatever is necessary to market the gas” is too open ended. They could add a dryer to remove water. Then, if you have wet gas, they could add a separator to separate the wet gas. Then they need a tank or two or three to hold all the different precipitates. Then those require a flare system for emergency venting. Before you know you have a mini refinery on your property.
Don’t know a lot about cell phones but could the pad be expanded to additional servers to add capacity? Or multiple transformers? Larger back up units? What if they expand into other uses like fiber optics? Other band transmissions?
Best to limit use to original agreement as much as possible.
The initial contact letter said a 12' by 20' concrete pad and that's what I would make sure the lease is limited to.
Your comments on gas lease equipment and potential expansion is well taken. Our camp gas lease evolution is kind of one of a kind as the pad was located on what the gas company believed to be on neighboring property, but after we had it surveyed actually was on our property, which put us in a good position to make a "deal"....
Wow, what a major screwup. Shocked they didn’t do a survey before locating the pad and well.
A few things that crossed my mind:
1) is this transferrable to another party if you sell them your property? That could be a selling point for you....specific language about rights and process should be clear up front.
2) we have a friend who put in a bunch of solar panels on their horsefarm with the idea of making money on selling energy back to the power company. It turned into a huge hassle as they had to create a company to receive the funds, there were tax implications and when it was all done they felt it wasn't worth it. Hopefully your situation is different
Seems like a nice little bonus...should be enough for PSU season tickets and some fun splurges that you wouldn't do.
Since 1997, bell of NY, Verizon, Crown Castle, AT&T, etc. have been our bread & butter clients. Over the last few decades, we have been involved with the instillations of hundreds of sites. Our services included the field surveying of the proposed site, the site civil engineering development and my expertise in providing the structural for 20-ton equipment/antenna installations on roof tops in Philly, Harrisburg, Stroudsburg, York, Wilmington & New Castle, Maryland. Antenna wind loading designs for installations on water-towers, monopoles & SST towers, stadiums, etc.
A typical "raw-land" site installation will involve a 12' - 20' wide easement from public access to the site. The easement is created for the telco & power supply from existing sources outside the property to the site, the initial construction equipment access. Within the easement a 10' wide stone-aggregate access road will be constructed. The easement will also be used to supply diesel or propane to the site if gas is not available in the area. The site will be accessed twice or three time per month by vehicle for maintenance. The townships usually have ordinances requiring a one-two vehicle parking space outside the compound with landscaping surrounding the compound from public view. The carrier will install an 8' high security fence w/razor or barbed wire at the top around the perimeter.
Depending on the anticipation of additional cellular carriers, the fenced compound could be as large as 50' x 50'.
The mentioned 12' x 20'concrete foundation will either support an enclosed equipment building or outside equipment cabinets and emergency generator all with a canopy cover over top to protect the equipment from falling ice which could damage the cellular equipment. the foundation will also be occupied with telco & integrated electric load service cabinet.
With the introduction of micro-installations, our cellular involvement has come to an end. a great run while it lasted. In 2018, finished the loading and wind designs for 46 large antennas proposed for installation on the water tower on the West Chester University.
coordinates: 39.95258, -75.60160 google maps.
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It's in the mountains where survey points are hard to find. They probably did do a survey, but hired a survey company that didn't go back far enough to the proven point/location.
We hired a survey company that is renouned in the area for getting it correct and they went further back and found out that our original line was correct. Some years before our neighbor had it surveyed (incorrectly) and basically stole 120 acres off of us. When the statute of limitations was near we then had the survey that went back further and found our neighbor's survey was not correct and that's what we used to negotiate with our neighbor and the gas company.
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Not mr
Good put about selling the property. Same applies to the cell phone company. They could sell their system or be merged/acquired by another firm.
Not me. GreginPitt.
Good put about selling the property. Same applies to the cell phone company. They could sell their system or be merged/acquired by another firm.
Thanks for the response and information.
The inquiry letter I received described this lease request as strictly a Verizon antenna project. ATT and T-Mobile service on our street smack in the middle of surburbia is excellent so I'm not anticipating further equipment locatio requests.
It will be intesting to see how Verizon would plan to access their equipment. I double our township would let them put a road in, and I wouldn't agree to a road up the power line right of way to the equipment. I can't imagine them even believing that would be an option. For them to realistically pull off using the Duquesne Light tower they would have to realize that whatever they put in would need to be self contained on the concrete and landscaped to hide it as well. Otherwise even if I agreed my neighbors would likely prevent the permitting process from concluding.
The Duquesne Light high voltage path has other towers that are located in more undeveloped woods 6 or 8 towers away where a road would make sense, but they are in hollows that don't have the altitude of our location. The 3rd party representative that I spoke with on Friday mentioned that the Verizon Radio Frequency Engineer's study picked this tower to resolve Verizon's spotty service in our area.
Should be interesting to see the actual proposal, how they plan to complete the installation, access, and the rest of the details.
Usually a small gravel road would be required for site access. That could involve tree removal for install equipment and maintenance. I would make sure to get reimbursed for trees that may need to me removed.
I am no expert but if they put in some kind of facility they will need access to it…..meaning a road. And since it is the ROW of major power lines it is likely the power company has the right to sublet to another utility. This is a major reason why the cell phone company selected an electric company structure to locate its units. Far easier to get permitting and approval. You may have no choice.
Possibly...but given his altitude, that is his advantage, vs other soits piles down without the altitude. Power = necessary. Cell service = luxury ( tell that to my students who get free and recuced lunch but have iPhones).
If you have a lawyer friend who is up to defend you for fun and/or % of profits you should have a CHOICE. Get yours.
I understand what you are saying, but a road wouldn't even be able to get past the tower itself. And I can't see them trying to put a road up between the neighbors behind me.
And it would have to be mega-bucks for me to even consider a road on my property in my front lawn. We are in the middle of a pretty sweet neighborhood. My wife would never go for it either.
Will be an interesting discussion, but if that's what they really want they'll be keeping their money...... and their road.
That may play into it.
But I believe the main reason they chose to try and utilize the electric tower is that our community has not been receptive to additional tower structures being built, and has litigated against them at every turn. This tower is already there so there is no need for re-zoning. They can just get a lease to use the tower from Duquesne Light and a lease from the landowner and they can proceed.
GREG,
If these are transmission towers, how are they serviced by maintenance vehicles?
There is a difference between an access lease and a R-O-W. If the power co. wishes to grant the cell carrier a neglible stone aggregate path for site access, I don't believe your permission is needed, unless it's within the R-O-W contract.
EXAMPLE
Right-of-Way Restrictions
- "Consents and/or easements for any utility, access road, etc. will be limited to a maximum of 20 feet in width within the rights-of-way unless provisions are defined in the easements, deeds, etc."
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Not that simple Greg,
The carrier still has to assemble its team for testimony ( The Dog & Pony Shows) before the Zoning-Hearing Board, Planning Commission and Township Supervisors (if the have them). The team will consist of our attorney, one or two acquisition consultants, possibly a realtor for property value determination, radio frequency engineer to explain the need for the additional site, civil engineer for description of the site development and myself to explain any compromise to the health, welfare and safety of the public the tower structure imposes.
You will have the initial appearance before each board, then a few months, probably another appearance. If any public objection, another.
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People have no idea how complicated everything has become. Multiple layers of government. Overlapping jurisdictions. A regulatory maze with with some regs in opposition to each other. And all there for an opponent to use to their advantage.
Appears the people in this neighborhood have deep pockets, which means they will show up an attorney to fight it. Which will greatly add to the cost and delay things for at least a year. If they go to court, three years.
And this is for something as simple as putting up a few cell phone transmitter/receivers and the necessary support equipment. Consider how bad it must be to permit and build out an Amazon fullfilment center, a Tesla battery manufacturing plant, or even a simple office building?
Then accuse companies of offshoring to China because of cheap labor. They can build in China in six months what it would take five years to build here. And in five years the entire economic reason for building can change.
Meanwhile, people will complain about poor cellular service, how the cost keeps going up, how evil big biz is getting rich.
The large tower sites are eventually comming to an end. This is the new cellular platform that put us out of business with the carriers.....
I believe this is very good for the public. The local governments have a problem with the 5G platforms because they don't have regulations to restrict the placement of the very small 5G networks. Currently, if there is a utility R-O-W, the carrier can erect a wooden pole a mount the 5G apparatus.
Reading had a big problem, because cellular 5G 's were erected in existing R-O-W's within the Historic District and the town didn't have the necessary laws to prohibit the installations.
I don't know if these issues were ever resolved.
5G Cell Towers - Are They Safe & Who Decides Where They Go? - Vertical Consultants: Cell Tower Lease Experts
What Are 5G Cell Towers? 5G cell towers are telecommunications sites that could boost wireless signals by ten times the current speed of 4G. 5G operates
www.celltowerleaseexperts.com
"Existing cell towers are being revisited to alter for 5G capability. They will remain a base for the networks.
New towers will also be explored, with property owners and landowners receiving requests to build new towers to help extend existing coverage. However, with the limitations of larger towers it’s small cells that will begin popping up in cities across the US.
Telecommunications companies are racing to be the first to expand these small cells in major cities. By adding these small cells throughout highly-populated urban areas, coverage gaps may be eliminated. So, where exactly will they go?
Legislation has been proposed, and in some cases passed, to prevent local governments’ ability to regulate these installations on public property.
That means traffic lights, light poles and public buildings could be sites for small cells. This also means revenues from these small cells or cell towers is limited, which reduces the amount of money the city can then receive for the devices.
Concerned citizens and residents are taking note.
Worries include the health, privacy and security risks as well as the overall aesthetic concerns to a community’s landscape. Some cities are attempting to reject these proposed towers to protect residents from these factors and any other unforeseen negative consequences that could be associated with the growth of 5G.
Ultimately, the 5G networks are on the horizon and the technology is coming. The real question is: are we ready?"
There are no trucks that come to the tower. When DL checks the tower, which is pretty infrequent, they either park on the street or they walk the ROW between towers.GREG,
If these are transmission towers, how are they serviced by maintenance vehicles?
There is a difference between an access lease and a R-O-W. If the power co. wishes to grant the cell carrier a neglible stone aggregate path for site access, I don't believe your permission is needed, unless it's within the R-O-W contract.
EXAMPLE
Right-of-Way Restrictions
Depending on the signal propagation needs and the antenna array, the carrier may have to build a monopoly tower within the transmission tower. They will need access for flatbed trucks to do this.
- "Consents and/or easements for any utility, access road, etc. will be limited to a maximum of 20 feet in width within the rights-of-way unless provisions are defined in the easements, deeds, etc."
The Duquesne Light provision on my survey is worded Right of Way. But it is my understanding that Duquesne Light can not itself grant access within that ROW to a 3rd party. And as they can't, and the project needs 12' by 20" ground space for non DL equipment (as well as a lease between DL and Verizon for equipment positioning on the tower), the project itself can not proceed without a lease signed by my wife and I. And we would not grant a lease that included a road from the street up to the tower area, which is approximately 150' from the street.
But I realize that a large cherry picker would be necessary to lift the antenna assembly to it's position on the tower, and we would be agreeable to the access and mess of the installation, within a concise project schedue, as long as Verizon expediantly puts the lawn and landscape back to it's original condition which would be included in the lease agreement with penalties for non-compliance. A flatbed on the street could be accessed by a series of lifts to get the equipment to the tower, as well as getting the equipment to the concrete pad. They could even use 4 wheelers that would create somewhat of a mess as long as they repaired and cleaned up in a timely manner. There's really no space for a road around the tower with the landscaping in place and the garage I built that sits about 6" out of the ROW pretty much next to the tower, with that area between the tower being a side slope.
They would have to move some dirt around within the ROW to put in the concrete pad and that could be worked out. And the concrete could be pumped from the street, the same way I had it done for the 3 pours (footer, filling the concrete block, and floor) required to build my detached garage in 2019.
I used to analyze and approve project plans in steel mills for projects up to $600MM, so if they can't figure out how to do it with minimal colateral damage I'll help them......
I spoke with the township's Director of Community Development on Friday and he made it sound as if there would be no re-zoning required due to the utility ROW already existing and the tower already in service. He may have mis-spoke.
It it's that complicated I won't participate unless I'm compensated up front. I wasn't looking for a paid job when I got their letter, let alone an unpaid one. So that may be a deal killer right off the start. My wife and I were happy here before we got their inquiry letter and what they might offer won't change our lifestyle one bit so the onus is on them to make this attractive. But it is pretty well documented that Verizon's service is sub par here in yuppie heaven and I was told by the 3rd party rep I spoke with that the Verizon Radio Frequency Engineer identified this tower as the best location for installing the antennas to improve service in this area.
If nothing else I'm getting a course on cell tower construction and contracts.......... And there are fewer decent days for golf in Feb and March than there will be in May so I have time to waste (invest???) now that I may not want to spend when the weather gets better..... And with back surgery schedule for late March I may have a few more months where I'm bored enough to continue this learning experience.
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Thanks for the link and info. I had already watched a good many short video's by Vertical Consultants that are helping me understand some of the issues involved.The large tower sites are eventually comming to an end. This is the new cellular platform that put us out of business with the carriers.....
I believe this is very good for the public. The local governments have a problem with the 5G platforms because they don't have regulations to restrict the placement of the very small 5G networks. Currently, if there is a utility R-O-W, the carrier can erect a wooden pole a mount the 5G apparatus.
Reading had a big problem, because cellular 5G 's were erected in existing R-O-W's within the Historic District and the town didn't have the necessary laws to prohibit the installations.
I don't know if these issues were ever resolved.
5G Cell Towers - Are They Safe & Who Decides Where They Go? - Vertical Consultants: Cell Tower Lease Experts
What Are 5G Cell Towers? 5G cell towers are telecommunications sites that could boost wireless signals by ten times the current speed of 4G. 5G operates
"Existing cell towers are being revisited to alter for 5G capability. They will remain a base for the networks.
New towers will also be explored, with property owners and landowners receiving requests to build new towers to help extend existing coverage. However, with the limitations of larger towers it’s small cells that will begin popping up in cities across the US.
Telecommunications companies are racing to be the first to expand these small cells in major cities. By adding these small cells throughout highly-populated urban areas, coverage gaps may be eliminated. So, where exactly will they go?
Legislation has been proposed, and in some cases passed, to prevent local governments’ ability to regulate these installations on public property.
That means traffic lights, light poles and public buildings could be sites for small cells. This also means revenues from these small cells or cell towers is limited, which reduces the amount of money the city can then receive for the devices.
Concerned citizens and residents are taking note.
Worries include the health, privacy and security risks as well as the overall aesthetic concerns to a community’s landscape. Some cities are attempting to reject these proposed towers to protect residents from these factors and any other unforeseen negative consequences that could be associated with the growth of 5G.
Ultimately, the 5G networks are on the horizon and the technology is coming. The real question is: are we ready?"
I was thinking about the process...and layers of government too. I have recently been appkinted to finish out a term for a member of our Township Zoning Hearing Board. I just dealt with my first case Friday which was basically an extension on a construction period for an agricultural farmworker compiund which has been approved and has no issues with neighbors. It was an easy "Yes."
However I'm told that many are not clesr cut. We are a 5 member Board who has our own separate counsel. While our work is influenced by the Township Planning Committee, we do not coordinate work/decisions with them at all.
If residents/developers are unhappy with our rulings the next step is to take our counsel to court. It is my understanding that I have no personal exp9sure in these cases, nor is it likely that I will be called into court to defend a vote I make.
Our President gas said that she has never had a decision overturned by a judge in court. Like Spin said....time clicks, tick, tick, tick..... probably more complicated than any common person would think.
💡....You are two separate entities... the two stewards of the people.
I hope you don't discuss your intentions outside your committee. What the hell, it's only business as usual...been there, seen that..
🤨
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