9.9 schollies - how do teams handle that
- Thread starter Locolion
- Start date
...not in the know but I can guess...
...in today's world at major programs it appears that 75-90% of varsity wrestlers redshirt one year...
...unless it is understood that the wrestler gets NO $$$s when he shirts this means that the program has only 2 new full-ride "equivalents" to hand out each year ...
...after that it is simply a matter of need and negotiation ... not unlike life in general ... and I'm sure each year can contain an adjusted percentage distribution ... depending on overall progression and fund availability ... and I know that sometimes a family will even give back some of their award to help the team...the decision-making re: money distribution is undoubtedly almost as important in a coach 's performance as his W/L record...
...but thas jes my opinion...
...in today's world at major programs it appears that 75-90% of varsity wrestlers redshirt one year...
...unless it is understood that the wrestler gets NO $$$s when he shirts this means that the program has only 2 new full-ride "equivalents" to hand out each year ...
...after that it is simply a matter of need and negotiation ... not unlike life in general ... and I'm sure each year can contain an adjusted percentage distribution ... depending on overall progression and fund availability ... and I know that sometimes a family will even give back some of their award to help the team...the decision-making re: money distribution is undoubtedly almost as important in a coach 's performance as his W/L record...
...but thas jes my opinion...
I could be wrong but I was always to believe if a wrestler makes All-American status at PSU he is given a partial shorlarship?
Thanks for your reply. Was hoping to know actual approach rather than speculative. Anyone in the know?
I have any idea how I would appraoch but that is dependent on how the marketplace currently operated
...there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to wrestling scholarship $$$s...
...some wealthy families likely discuss their situation with the coach and may even say that scholarship $$$s will not determine their son's decision...
...others may not agree to ante up any $$$s and suggest that $$$s will be the primary factor in their decision...
...and beyond what really happens are fan's speculation re: who got what...
...as far as I am concerned I don't think it's anyone's business to know how the pie is divided...anymore than its anyone's business to know what you or I earn in our vocations...
...some wealthy families likely discuss their situation with the coach and may even say that scholarship $$$s will not determine their son's decision...
...others may not agree to ante up any $$$s and suggest that $$$s will be the primary factor in their decision...
...and beyond what really happens are fan's speculation re: who got what...
...as far as I am concerned I don't think it's anyone's business to know how the pie is divided...anymore than its anyone's business to know what you or I earn in our vocations...
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Used to be a top notch program would use the exact value of 1 full out of state scholarship and then multiply that value by 9.9 to calculate their available scholarship money. That money was then divided into whatever partials or full rides that were needed.
Not NCAA legal, but certainly provided competitive advantages.
I have no idea how Penn State divides their scholarships, but I know the entire staff (coaching and administrative) is aware of every scholarship opportunity available Penn State students and there is a system in place to assist the wrestling student athletes in applying for everything that they may be eligible for.
They don't get everything they apply for, but there are no missed assistance opportunities.
Not NCAA legal, but certainly provided competitive advantages.
I have no idea how Penn State divides their scholarships, but I know the entire staff (coaching and administrative) is aware of every scholarship opportunity available Penn State students and there is a system in place to assist the wrestling student athletes in applying for everything that they may be eligible for.
They don't get everything they apply for, but there are no missed assistance opportunities.
Many wrestlers get some athletic aid (let's say book money) to ensure a high APR that keeps the team eligible for nationals.
Some, such as Matt Brown, go into ROTC. Athletes are eligible for academic and needs-based aid. The school must prove to the NCAA that athletes fulfill all requirements and receive no preferential consideration over the general student body.
Also, a wrestler who gets a partial from Cael and plays football counts as a full ride against Franklin. So Cael could not give any aid to Jan Johnson.
Anything more specific than that is none of my business.
Some, such as Matt Brown, go into ROTC. Athletes are eligible for academic and needs-based aid. The school must prove to the NCAA that athletes fulfill all requirements and receive no preferential consideration over the general student body.
Also, a wrestler who gets a partial from Cael and plays football counts as a full ride against Franklin. So Cael could not give any aid to Jan Johnson.
Anything more specific than that is none of my business.
-- Not every program is fully-funded, without knowing the numbers, my guess is most are not.
-- PSU benefits from endowments, the remainder of the 9.9 comes from the University.
-- Scholarships are awarded annually, though there is an NCAA provision for a longer-term scholarship. I believe our coaches are highly ethical with their word to scholarship wrestlers, regardless of performance, or whatever.
-- Wrestling is an equivalency sport, far more partials than full rides.
-- Any award given other than for athletically-related financial aid, must be available to the general student population, and no favoritism shown the student-athlete.
The above probably doesn't answer the OP's question, for which, I believe, every school and every coaching staff is different.
-- PSU benefits from endowments, the remainder of the 9.9 comes from the University.
-- Scholarships are awarded annually, though there is an NCAA provision for a longer-term scholarship. I believe our coaches are highly ethical with their word to scholarship wrestlers, regardless of performance, or whatever.
-- Wrestling is an equivalency sport, far more partials than full rides.
-- Any award given other than for athletically-related financial aid, must be available to the general student population, and no favoritism shown the student-athlete.
The above probably doesn't answer the OP's question, for which, I believe, every school and every coaching staff is different.
Most years they wouldn't be able to do that right away. By the time NCAAs are over and you have made AA the ships for the next season have already been decided on.
Also, the answer to the OP is that we don't know how the ships are handled by the coaches and I doubt they are going to tell us any time soon and IMHO that's as it should be.
There is a post in the creedo thread by a RU insider that RU is only funded for 9.9 in state schollies. That they wont be funded for 9.9 out of state schollie equivalents until the new big ten contract pays out and then trickles down to them.
Hopefully this revelation isnt that much of a cruise liner for anyone.
Hopefully this revelation isnt that much of a cruise liner for anyone.
Smoke screen IMHO. Out of state tuition is higher than in state. However, from a cost standpoint a student is a student and instate or out of state the cost to the school is the same. They might tell you differently but that is just creative accounting on their part. FYI, I am quite well versed in "creative accounting".
I don't believe Jan Johnson is on a football scholarship. He was a preferred walk-on.
This was exactly my point. Cael could not give Jan any money at all, because then the NCAA would've counted that as a full football scholarship.
Without that rule, the SEC tennis champ would weigh 350, run a 4.6 40, and jack up 30 reps on the 225-lb bench.
Yes, the cost to the university is the same. However, the athletics dept is stuck with the same acctg practice as the rest of the university. Can't bill the athletes the true cost and the lab rat something more.
OK, misunderstood your point.
How does it work dual sport athletes when one is not football? For instance a wrestler who also plays hockey (I know that's not likely).
You missed the point. Doesn't matter that Johnson is a walk on for football. If he got ANY
Pretty sure that rule only applies to football and mens and womens bball, but don't quote me on that.
Yes, it does count against the 9.9. Penn State has 5 or 6 wrestling scholarships endowed.
As I read the rules, being a "counter" in wrestling (gets some financial aid), doesn't count against football...but given the circular arguments sometimes seen in the rulebook, I may have missed something.
15.5.9.2 Basketball. A counter who practices or competes in basketball and one or more other sports (other than football) shall be counted in basketball.
15.5.9.3 Ice Hockey, Men’s. A counter who practices or competes in men’s ice hockey and one or more other sports (other than football or basketball) shall be counted in men’s ice hockey. (Adopted: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/93)
15.5.9.4 Swimming and Diving/Water Polo, Men’s. A counter who practices or competes in both men’s swimming and diving and men’s water polo at a member institution shall be counted in men’s swimming and diving, unless he counts in football or basketball.
15.5.9.5 Volleyball, Women’s. A counter who practices or competes in women’s volleyball and one or more other sports (other than basketball) shall be counted in women’s volleyball.
15.5.9.7 Other Sports. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a counter who participates in two or more sports shall be counted in one of the sports but shall not be counted in the others.
Some colleges handle it in different ways...I will leave it at that....I can promise you Cael is doing it the right way. Heck the man will not even say a bad word....lol
Well, I was kind of wrong and kind of right. You left out
15.5.9.1 Football. [FBS/FCS] In football, a counter who was recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) and/or offered financial aid to participate in football and who participates (practices or competes) in football and one or more sports (including basketball) shall be counted in football. A counter who was not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) and/or offered financial aid to participate in football and who competes in football and one or more sports (including
basketball) shall be counted in football.
The way I read the bolded part that means Johnson counts against football even if he isn't given any wrestling ship money still counts against the football limit of 85. Whether that continues for his entire time at PSU or just as long as he is on the wrestling roster I have no idea. In any case it wouldn't have impacted football at this point as we are well under the 85 limit.
Changed my mind...and removed my previous post.
In Jan's situation, assuming he is not a "counter" in football, nor a "counter" in wrestling, the bolded part would not apply. If he received even a penny from Cael, he would be a "counter" for football.
In Jan's situation, assuming he is not a "counter" in football, nor a "counter" in wrestling, the bolded part would not apply. If he received even a penny from Cael, he would be a "counter" for football.
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I think the rule is poorly worded but means that it would only count against football if the athlete is on the football roster and they receive any athletic money from any sport.
I know a lot of NCAA rules make no sense but to say that the walk on doesn't count against football's 85 because he is getting no money but if he plays another sport while still getting no money then he does count against the football limit???
Uh, this may or may not be relevant, but I note that the wrestling team has very high academic scores. In fact, they won the NCAA's APR award this year. Could that mean that some of these kids qualify for academic scholarships? Can academic scholarships, other grants, and tuition assistance combine with a fractional wrestling scholarship to fill the room?
Theoretically yes.
In reality, few if any. Van Cura might be, he of the 4.0 in Chem.
The NCAA rule is that athletes may not receive preferential consideration. Translated: schools must prove to the NCAA's satisfaction ... this is a burden for academic depts. Throw in the fact that PSU academic scholarships are extremely competitive, and I'd venture to say it happens a lot less often than we think it could.
Professional example: my employer gives about 30-40 scholarships per year to PSU Engr, Business, and IST undergrads. The colleges select the winners. I've seen every resume in the past 15+ yrs -- over 500 recipients. Zero varsity athletes from any sport.
I believe scholarships can't be reduced for poor performance in athletics any more. If you give a a guy a 50% ride and he never sees the lineup but maintains good standing with the university/team you are going to have to ask for that money back down the road you can't just reduce it.
Ha! He had a full athletic ride for football. Also, he was a math major, College of Science, so he would've been ineligible for our scholarship.
I think the discussion of partial athletics + academic $$ is like spotting a unicorn. I was in a discussion with a D-1 mens lax head coach a few years back. He was talking about scholarships in his partial scholarship sport. Same problems as wrestling. 12.6 scholarships with a roster of 45 student athletes.
Now maybe not everything was 100% truthful, as I think he was more interested in making a point than fact-checking. But ...
He said he has NEVER given a full ride scholarship, and anyone that says they got one is telling tales. And in case you are wondering, his team has had all american players and NCAA championships.
He also said that he has had kids drop their partial athletic scholarship $$ because they were eligible for other scholarship sources that were substantially more than the athletic offering, and that if they tried to combine them, it typically ALL counted against their 12.6, even though the $$ came from outside the athletic department.
Wrestling is certainly a different animal, even though they are both partial scholarship sports. If you have a chance to get one or two guys on full rides that can win every match, and score bonus points, is it worth it to do so at the expense of the rest of the roster? Lee to Iowa might, for example. Is Lee a full ride kid? He would have to be near that, or the family is making up a substantial differential.
Last note, in closing. I know one student athlete in lax was offered the same $$ from PSU and Maryland. The kid lives in MD, and chose to go to MD. The money savings to the family was substantial to stay in-state. All other things being equal, an out-of-state school has to pony up higher $ to get kids to come.
Sorry to be so long, for an answer that has nothing to do with wrestling.
Now maybe not everything was 100% truthful, as I think he was more interested in making a point than fact-checking. But ...
He said he has NEVER given a full ride scholarship, and anyone that says they got one is telling tales. And in case you are wondering, his team has had all american players and NCAA championships.
He also said that he has had kids drop their partial athletic scholarship $$ because they were eligible for other scholarship sources that were substantially more than the athletic offering, and that if they tried to combine them, it typically ALL counted against their 12.6, even though the $$ came from outside the athletic department.
Wrestling is certainly a different animal, even though they are both partial scholarship sports. If you have a chance to get one or two guys on full rides that can win every match, and score bonus points, is it worth it to do so at the expense of the rest of the roster? Lee to Iowa might, for example. Is Lee a full ride kid? He would have to be near that, or the family is making up a substantial differential.
Last note, in closing. I know one student athlete in lax was offered the same $$ from PSU and Maryland. The kid lives in MD, and chose to go to MD. The money savings to the family was substantial to stay in-state. All other things being equal, an out-of-state school has to pony up higher $ to get kids to come.
Sorry to be so long, for an answer that has nothing to do with wrestling.
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