Wtf Flo???

[razorsedgeCE]

So recently Flowrestling flagged six of my videos for copyright violations on Youtube. The kicker is that four of the vids weren’t even theirs and the other two were Mark Hall and Sammy Sasso highlight vids. The majority of the Mark Hall vid wasn’t Flo’s footage either, but with Youtube’s new copyright policy, any violation that is claimed takes the video down no questions asked. It’s my assumption that Youtube doesn’t have the time to sort through the claims individually so they just take the accuser’s word for it.


I went ahead and reached out to Flo via email but of course received no response, then tried to reach out on social media but they just blocked me, so here I am to rant. I’m not trying to minimize what Flo has done for the sport over the years but just like all of you I’m a fan of the sport and have been for a long time. I have a full time job and just make the vids in my spare time and don’t make a dime off it. But I see a ton of mma content and videos and with wrestling being my first passion I thought well hell since nobody is making the same kind and quality of content I guess I’ll go ahead and put some stuff together.


The problem is that if you’re just a regular dude and not a journalist or part of a corporation you have limited access to any footage that could be used to make vids. The videos I put on my Youtube channel were countdown videos, wrestler profiles, highlight vids, and a few matches but apparently I was too much of a threat so Flo decided to tattle on me. I guess it’s fair to say that they’ve essentially established themselves as a corporate monopoly.


I guess my issue is that it seems that in my opinion Flo has lost its way. When the site was first launched it was awesome. Not sure if you guys remember the candid interviews in John Smith’s office when Martin was picking John’s brain about his training mentality, or when Tom Brand’s was telling the story about Gable throwing apples at one of his athlete’s during practice? One of my favorites was the intensity of the Olympic team training on the cog. Flo simply doesn’t put that kind of footage out any more.


I decided to cancel my FloPro account due to a lack of quality content. I didn’t think it was ethical to make a guy who was paying $20 a month of his hard-earned money to watch a Rocket Mortgage commercial every time I clicked on a video. Not to mention Flo keeps rehashing these old vids and trying to pass them off as something new. I got excited when I saw a clip of Brock Lesnar in an ad, just to be disappointed when I found out it was “Keepers of the Flame,” a great doc, but came out two years ago. I tried to rewatch “Terry” a few weeks ago and I think they took that down for some reason. I also don’t think I should have to pay to see an interview with Doug Schwab, isn’t that what sponsors are for?


Flo is the leader in promoting the sport of wrestling, but I think they could do better. They haven’t evolved over the years, but actually regressed. There are millions of story lines in the sport of wrestling that could get fans more emotionally connected to the sport. Hell kids today have probably heard the name Dan Gable but couldn’t begin to tell you why he’s significant to the sport of wrestling. If they even know who Cael Sanderson is it’s because he’s the head coach of the most dominant program in the country at the moment, not because he’s arguably the greatest wrestler of all time. And forget about guys like Gene Mills, Kendall Cross, and Ray Brinzer, kids today have no idea who those guys are. That is what Flo should be doing, taking a lesson from the "UFC Countdown" series in order to generate more interest. Or do a series similar to the NFL network’s "A Football Life" to talk about the history of the sport.


Perhaps bring back some former wrestling greats to demonstrate technique or be a part of the podcast. And stop making fans pay for every damn thing you put on the site. This is what the sport needs and what I think that the leader in the promotion of the sport should be doing. I haven’t posted a vid in four months because I got sick of my wife telling me that I was spending too much time on the computer and I guess I’m not gonna waste any more time editing videos for hours on end in my free time if Flo is just going to get them yanked, but if they don’t want anyone else doing it, then they should step up and start doing it themselves. Ok I’m done, thanks for reading guys.

 

[bowandarrow]

NBA is the smartest league. The more people making gifs, highlight videos, etc. the better.

Love FLO for what they do for wrestling and running, but they certainly are not perfect and I think are in the wrong here (given your side of the story).

 

[horraybeer]

Flo sucks was a long time subscriber, but having CP the clown as a wrestling ranker and pseudo egghead ruined my experience. They should worry more about their wrestling "experts" and streaming of live events issues, then your videos.

 

[PSUer1989]

It will just get worse with their partnership with BTN ...now they will police BTN material (even student U productions). Like the OP said, these types of videos increase interest in the sport, and are not threatening their crappy production of live matches.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I said at the beginning and I'll keep saying it. Flo, long term, is VERY bad for the sport. They are slowly but surely limiting content on the internet in order to corner the market with their services. With all the customer service issues, I have never been tempted to be a subscriber. The longer all of you continue to support Flo the more they will take that as tacit approval to continue to limit your options. If that is okay with you, then continue as you are. If it isn't what you intended to buy with your subscription, then do something about it.

 

[tikk10]

So recently Flowrestling flagged six of my videos for copyright violations on Youtube. The kicker is that four of the vids weren’t even theirs and the other two were Mark Hall and Sammy Sasso highlight vids. The majority of the Mark Hall vid wasn’t Flo’s footage either, but with Youtube’s new copyright policy, any violation that is claimed takes the video down no questions asked. It’s my assumption that Youtube doesn’t have the time to sort through the claims individually so they just take the accuser’s word for it.


I went ahead and reached out to Flo via email but of course received no response, then tried to reach out on social media but they just blocked me, so here I am to rant. I’m not trying to minimize what Flo has done for the sport over the years but just like all of you I’m a fan of the sport and have been for a long time. I have a full time job and just make the vids in my spare time and don’t make a dime off it. But I see a ton of mma content and videos and with wrestling being my first passion I thought well hell since nobody is making the same kind and quality of content I guess I’ll go ahead and put some stuff together.


The problem is that if you’re just a regular dude and not a journalist or part of a corporation you have limited access to any footage that could be used to make vids. The videos I put on my Youtube channel were countdown videos, wrestler profiles, highlight vids, and a few matches but apparently I was too much of a threat so Flo decided to tattle on me. I guess it’s fair to say that they’ve essentially established themselves as a corporate monopoly.


I guess my issue is that it seems that in my opinion Flo has lost its way. When the site was first launched it was awesome. Not sure if you guys remember the candid interviews in John Smith’s office when Martin was picking John’s brain about his training mentality, or when Tom Brand’s was telling the story about Gable throwing apples at one of his athlete’s during practice? One of my favorites was the intensity of the Olympic team training on the cog. Flo simply doesn’t put that kind of footage out any more.


I decided to cancel my FloPro account due to a lack of quality content. I didn’t think it was ethical to make a guy who was paying $20 a month of his hard-earned money to watch a Rocket Mortgage commercial every time I clicked on a video. Not to mention Flo keeps rehashing these old vids and trying to pass them off as something new. I got excited when I saw a clip of Brock Lesnar in an ad, just to be disappointed when I found out it was “Keepers of the Flame,” a great doc, but came out two years ago. I tried to rewatch “Terry” a few weeks ago and I think they took that down for some reason. I also don’t think I should have to pay to see an interview with Doug Schwab, isn’t that what sponsors are for?


Flo is the leader in promoting the sport of wrestling, but I think they could do better. They haven’t evolved over the years, but actually regressed. There are millions of story lines in the sport of wrestling that could get fans more emotionally connected to the sport. Hell kids today have probably heard the name Dan Gable but couldn’t begin to tell you why he’s significant to the sport of wrestling. If they even know who Cael Sanderson is it’s because he’s the head coach of the most dominant program in the country at the moment, not because he’s arguably the greatest wrestler of all time. And forget about guys like Gene Mills, Kendall Cross, and Ray Brinzer, kids today have no idea who those guys are. That is what Flo should be doing, taking a lesson from the "UFC Countdown" series in order to generate more interest. Or do a series similar to the NFL network’s "A Football Life" to talk about the history of the sport.


Perhaps bring back some former wrestling greats to demonstrate technique or be a part of the podcast. And stop making fans pay for every damn thing you put on the site. This is what the sport needs and what I think that the leader in the promotion of the sport should be doing. I haven’t posted a vid in four months because I got sick of my wife telling me that I was spending too much time on the computer and I guess I’m not gonna waste any more time editing videos for hours on end in my free time if Flo is just going to get them yanked, but if they don’t want anyone else doing it, then they should step up and start doing it themselves. Ok I’m done, thanks for reading guys.

Since the clips weren't yours, the starting point of a copyright analysis is that they're infringements unless you have a valid defense. The most obviously applicable defense, in your case, is "fair use." Excellent primer on fair use here.

Now, whether your videos qualify as fair use I don't know, but based on the few I saw, it's probably a close call.

In your favor, you were using clips from multiple sources, owned by multiple rights-holders, and not using much of the source material, just particular highlights. (I could stand to be corrected here, I'm going from memory.) But one of the fair use factors is the amount of the original work used, and if you only use a few seconds of a song, for instance, it's typically considered fair use.

Working against you is that you didn't really add much original work to them. Although a fair use a four-factor test, most works that qualify are usually considered to have "transformed" the original work into something else meriting its own (relatively thinner) copyright. Editing together a string of your favorite clips usually doesn't qualify. One way they might be deemed as transformative is if they were thematically linked toward some journalistic end (e.g., a string of clips showing Zain's work on bottom).

Another important fair use factor is the effect on the market for the original work. I kind of doubt your videos were impacting Flo, only because I wouldn't think to use your YT channel as a substitute for Flo.

All of the above is somewhat academic though because the law (the DMCA) makes it easy for rights-holders to get work taken down, and overreaching is the norm because copyright lawsuits are rarely worth litigating, and especially rare when the rights holder is a corporation and the alleged infringer is a person making a few ad dollars from YouTube. Flo risks little by issuing a takedown notice.

That said, the DMCA does provide you an opportunity to challenge the takedown. You can issue a "counter-notification" to the OSP (YouTube) and they'll restore it. Then it's up to Flo whether they want to sue you or not. (The purpose of DMCA safe-harbor rule I'm describing is to allow OSPs--who are potential secondary infringers--an opportunity to become indemnified by the primary infringer (you).)

Copyright lawsuits are expensive and rarely worth it for either side. The effect of your alleged infringement on Flo's bottom line couldn't have come close to exceeding the cost of litigating. Most copyright lawsuits easily eat into six figures, on both sides.

The issue of whether short highlight clips qualify as fair use hasn't been litigated to my knowledge, but the custom in the industry is that everything is either outright licensed, or some reciprocal agreement exists between media companies allowing the practice.

None of those companies want the issue litigated because if an appeals court found that, as a matter of law, short highlight clips = fair use, those companies lose a lot of control. And it makes no economic sense for anyone in the general public--those with the greatest interest--to sue.

I'm not going to speculate whether Flo would actually file suit if you counter-notified, and none of the foregoing should be construed as legal advice. But hopefully that gives you some perspective.

 

[tikk10]

Further to copyright overreach and how technology is impacting it, this story illustrates what's become commonplace. Sony is automatically issuing takedowns against classical music works that have been in the public domain (and thus uncopyrightable) for centuries. No human at Sony is even issuing the takedown, what's happening is Sony has essentially 'fingerprinted' its works, and then sends its takedown bot out to locate and kill works bearing a similar fingerprint.

Individual musicians who create videos of themselves playing Wagner are undoubtedly in the right, but few if any are on the economic footing to be able to withstand a suit against Sony.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Flo sucks was a long time subscriber, but having CP the clown as a wrestling ranker and pseudo egghead ruined my experience. They should worry more about their wrestling "experts" and streaming of live events issues, then your videos.

I like CP and Egghead. I'm too cheap to pay for Flo though. I get BTN monthly subscriptions when I need to.

 

[lionlover]

Since the clips weren't yours, the starting point of a copyright analysis is that they're infringements unless you have a valid defense. The most obviously applicable defense, in your case, is "fair use." Excellent primer on fair use here.

Now, whether your videos qualify as fair use I don't know, but based on the few I saw, it's probably a close call.

In your favor, you were using clips from multiple sources, owned by multiple rights-holders, and not using much of the source material, just particular highlights. (I could stand to be corrected here, I'm going from memory.) But one of the fair use factors is the amount of the original work used, and if you only use a few seconds of a song, for instance, it's typically considered fair use.

Working against you is that you didn't really add much original work to them. Although a fair use a four-factor test, most works that qualify are usually considered to have "transformed" the original work into something else meriting its own (relatively thinner) copyright. Editing together a string of your favorite clips usually doesn't qualify. One way they might be deemed as transformative is if they were thematically linked toward some journalistic end (e.g., a string of clips showing Zain's work on bottom).

Another important fair use factor is the effect on the market for the original work. I kind of doubt your videos were impacting Flo, only because I wouldn't think to use your YT channel as a substitute for Flo.

All of the above is somewhat academic though because the law (the DMCA) makes it easy for rights-holders to get work taken down, and overreaching is the norm because copyright lawsuits are rarely worth litigating, and especially rare when the rights holder is a corporation and the alleged infringer is a person making a few ad dollars from YouTube. Flo risks little by issuing a takedown notice.

That said, the DMCA does provide you an opportunity to challenge the takedown. You can issue a "counter-notification" to the OSP (YouTube) and they'll restore it. Then it's up to Flo whether they want to sue you or not. (The purpose of DMCA safe-harbor rule I'm describing is to allow OSPs--who are potential secondary infringers--an opportunity to become indemnified by the primary infringer (you).)

Copyright lawsuits are expensive and rarely worth it for either side. The effect of your alleged infringement on Flo's bottom line couldn't have come close to exceeding the cost of litigating. Most copyright lawsuits easily eat into six figures, on both sides.

The issue of whether short highlight clips qualify as fair use hasn't been litigated to my knowledge, but the custom in the industry is that everything is either outright licensed, or some reciprocal agreement exists between media companies allowing the practice.

None of those companies want the issue litigated because if an appeals court found that, as a matter of law, short highlight clips = fair use, those companies lose a lot of control. And it makes no economic sense for anyone in the general public--those with the greatest interest--to sue.

I'm not going to speculate whether Flo would actually file suit if you counter-notified, and none of the foregoing should be construed as legal advice. But hopefully that gives you some perspective.

I have no idea if what you said is accurate. But, it sure sounded accurate! Thanks for taking the time to educate and advise without advising.

 

[PSUer1989]

I also pay for BTN Plus. Not only do you get the wrestling, but alol other PSU sports as well. I have never had a problem with the streaming quality. And, indirectly, the money does help out the universities.

 

[razorsedgeCE]

Since the clips weren't yours, the starting point of a copyright analysis is that they're infringements unless you have a valid defense. The most obviously applicable defense, in your case, is "fair use." Excellent primer on fair use here.

Now, whether your videos qualify as fair use I don't know, but based on the few I saw, it's probably a close call.

In your favor, you were using clips from multiple sources, owned by multiple rights-holders, and not using much of the source material, just particular highlights. (I could stand to be corrected here, I'm going from memory.) But one of the fair use factors is the amount of the original work used, and if you only use a few seconds of a song, for instance, it's typically considered fair use.

Working against you is that you didn't really add much original work to them. Although a fair use a four-factor test, most works that qualify are usually considered to have "transformed" the original work into something else meriting its own (relatively thinner) copyright. Editing together a string of your favorite clips usually doesn't qualify. One way they might be deemed as transformative is if they were thematically linked toward some journalistic end (e.g., a string of clips showing Zain's work on bottom).

Another important fair use factor is the effect on the market for the original work. I kind of doubt your videos were impacting Flo, only because I wouldn't think to use your YT channel as a substitute for Flo.

All of the above is somewhat academic though because the law (the DMCA) makes it easy for rights-holders to get work taken down, and overreaching is the norm because copyright lawsuits are rarely worth litigating, and especially rare when the rights holder is a corporation and the alleged infringer is a person making a few ad dollars from YouTube. Flo risks little by issuing a takedown notice.

That said, the DMCA does provide you an opportunity to challenge the takedown. You can issue a "counter-notification" to the OSP (YouTube) and they'll restore it. Then it's up to Flo whether they want to sue you or not. (The purpose of DMCA safe-harbor rule I'm describing is to allow OSPs--who are potential secondary infringers--an opportunity to become indemnified by the primary infringer (you).)

Copyright lawsuits are expensive and rarely worth it for either side. The effect of your alleged infringement on Flo's bottom line couldn't have come close to exceeding the cost of litigating. Most copyright lawsuits easily eat into six figures, on both sides.

The issue of whether short highlight clips qualify as fair use hasn't been litigated to my knowledge, but the custom in the industry is that everything is either outright licensed, or some reciprocal agreement exists between media companies allowing the practice.

None of those companies want the issue litigated because if an appeals court found that, as a matter of law, short highlight clips = fair use, those companies lose a lot of control. And it makes no economic sense for anyone in the general public--those with the greatest interest--to sue.

I'm not going to speculate whether Flo would actually file suit if you counter-notified, and none of the foregoing should be construed as legal advice. But hopefully that gives you some perspective.

I appreciate the thorough explanation of copyright laws, you obviously have extensive knowledge in that area. I probably did violate some copyright laws, my problem with Flo is:

#1 Why bother going after and taking down videos posted by an amateur fan who is making no money and is absolutely no threat to your corporate status and:
#2 If you have a problem with people creating this type of content, then step up, spend some of that cash your banking off of the sport and do a better job. Give the fans what they want, obviously there is a need for it or others wouldn't be making that type of content.

I don't want to litigate over it, just saying as the leader in promoting the sport, start promoting the sport...

 

[TheJimReaper]

I streamed Fargo on Flo and the stream was fine. It studdered a little bit during one match but overall it was very good.

 

[jrd23psu]

I appreciate the thorough explanation of copyright laws, you obviously have extensive knowledge in that area. I probably did violate some copyright laws, my problem with Flo is:

#1 Why bother going after and taking down videos posted by an amateur fan who is making no money and is absolutely no threat to your corporate status and:
#2 If you have a problem with people creating this type of content, then step up, spend some of that cash your banking off of the sport and do a better job. Give the fans what they want, obviously there is a need for it or others wouldn't be making that type of content.

I don't want to litigate over it, just saying as the leader in promoting the sport, start promoting the sport...

Because Flo is run by a group of petty assholes. Willie is probably the one who requested the takedowns. This is not the first time Flo has requested takedowns of video on YT that they don't even own the rights to. They troll YouTube looking to do this to people.

Flo offers a crappy product, with crappy customer service and institute shady business practices.

 

[Dogwelder]

... Sony is automatically issuing takedowns against classical music works that have been in the public domain (and thus uncopyrightable) for centuries. No human at Sony is even issuing the takedown, what's happening is Sony has essentially 'fingerprinted' its works, and then sends its takedown bot out to locate and kill works bearing a similar fingerprint.

Individual musicians who create videos of themselves playing Wagner are undoubtedly in the right, but few if any are on the economic footing to be able to withstand a suit against Sony.

Ha ha. Sony took down my "unlisted" video of my 9yo daughter's piano recital that I had uploaded for my daughter's grandma and aunts and uncles to watch. I told YouTube that the video was of my daughter playing a loong-dead composer's work, and YouTube restored it.

 

[RD41]

My take on Flo is that they realize wrestling is a very niche sport with a limited following. In order to make any money in this environment they have to own all content in order to attempt to get fans to pay for any wrestling material. IMHO, the problem is that the fan base will never grow b/c there is no exposure to wrestling. It is not really Flo's responsibility to grow the sport, their business is to make money but their actions do kill opportunities for wrestling to expand to new audiences.

 

[tikk10]

Ha ha. Sony took down my "unlisted" video of my 9yo daughter's piano recital that I had uploaded for my daughter's grandma and aunts and uncles to watch. I told YouTube that the video was of my daughter playing a loong-dead composer's work, and YouTube restored it.

Yeah, they're gross. There's actually a mechanism in the DMCA to penalize bad-faith takedowns and while ordinarily something like that would easily qualify, Sony has a built-in defense: "Wasn't us--the bot did it." You can litigate around that but it's work, time, expense.

Sony does own copyrights to recorded performances of long-expired classical works, but that copyright only covers identical copies, not the underlying music like your daughter's piano recital.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Ha ha. Sony took down my "unlisted" video of my 9yo daughter's piano recital that I had uploaded for my daughter's grandma and aunts and uncles to watch. I told YouTube that the video was of my daughter playing a loong-dead composer's work, and YouTube restored it.

Your daughter must be exceptional if she sounds like the masters.

 

[Dogwelder]

Your daughter must be exceptional if she sounds like the masters.

Ha ha. You may be giving Sony and its bot more discernment credit than they deserve. Still, I appreciate the optimism and positivity toward my girl! (I think she plays great! )

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Your daughter must be exceptional if she sounds like the masters.

Reminds me of the Simpsons when Homer and Bart are going to be late to see Truckasaurus - the Monster Truck eating metal dinosaur because they have to go to Lisa’s recital. Homer’s mood brightens when the band leader announces they will be performing Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony. Homer says “Unfinished, huh, that shouldn’t take long”

They then proceed to sit through an atonal nightmare

 

[Pennstate1985]

Reminds me of the Simpsons when Homer and Bart are going to be late to see Truckasaurus - the Monster Truck eating metal dinosaur because they have to go to Lisa’s recital. Homer’s mood brightens when the band leader announces they will be performing Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony. Homer says “Unfinished, huh, that shouldn’t take long”

They then proceed to sit through an atonal nightmare

Heartwarming father and son moments always brighten my day.