Wicked Early Hodge Debate

[slushhead]

Vote* according to the following hypothetical:

(1) Retherford demolishes the 149 field again, with Sorenson his closest competition.

(2) Nolf surgically disembowels the 157 field again, but doesn't widen the gap over Kemerer.

(3) IMar goes undefeated in arguably the toughest weight class for his 3rd title, capping a career with only 2 losses.

(4) Nickal goes undefeated, replicates his bonus output from last season, and wins by fall in the NCAA Finals over Martin/PD3/similar-caliber opponent.

(5) Snyder not considered (partial season participant).

* Hodge Criteria:
1. Record
2. Number of pins
3. Dominance
4. Past credentials
5. Quality of competition
6. Sportsmanship/citizenship
7. Heart

 

[dunkej01]

for zain.....what results does he have against sorenson? does sorenson have any loses (other than zain of course)?

as for imar the strength of his weight, will limit his "dominance" presumably.

nickal....probably gets the shaft until next season....and
Nolf....probably gets the shaft until next season

snyder ....was already given the greatest human wrestler of all time award by Tan Tom, what more is needed. this award is beneath that.

 

[slushhead]

for zain.....what results does he have against sorenson? does sorenson have any loses (other than zain of course)?

as for imar the strength of his weight, will limit his "dominance" presumably.

nickal....probably gets the shaft until next season....and
Nolf....probably gets the shaft until next season

snyder ....was already given the greatest human wrestler of all time award by Tan Tom, what more is needed. this award is beneath that.

For Zain -- assume he is as dominant as possible. The slant there is that he has the weakest weight class of the contenders (a common gripe last year from non-believers).

Snyder -- yeah, the Hodge is a collegiate wrestling award. Gotta wrestle the college schedule for a college award. Other awards cover wider criteria.

 

[tikk10]

I think IMar could get the votes under that all-things-equal hypothetical simply because he's a senior and his only senior competition, Zain, already won one. But only if his dominance stats improve or come significantly closer to Zain's, otherwise it's Zain's.

I like the hypothetical though because those are all reasonable, maybe even likely outcomes.

 

[El-Jefe]

PD3. Hard to beat pinning his way thru 184, 197, and HWT at nationals.

 

[slushhead]

If everything were to materialize as outlined in the hypothetical, it would be an agonizing vote, IMO. Taking emotion out of it, though, my view would be that Zain and IMar would be the frontrunners based on Criterion #4 (past credentials), as neither Nolf nor Nickal would yet be 3x champs.

So, narrowing it down to Zain & IMar . . . the knock on Zain is the perception of weaker competition (Criterion #5), and the knock on IMar is fewer falls (Criterion #2) and possibly less dominance (Criterion #3). The problem with the criteria, though, is that #2, 3, and 5 are highly correlated, and #3 is quite subjective to boot. Both guys knock #6 and #7 out of the park. If all materializes as above, IMar finishes with one less career loss (Criterion #1?) than Zain. Zain's losses are to Stieber (legend) and Port (badass), as a true frosh. IMar's losses are to Nolf (legend-in-the-making) and Joseph (book being written) as a RS-soph and RS-junior.

Man, it would be a tough vote.

 

[El-Jefe]

If the voters followed the stated criteria, Zain would already be a 2x winner.

But they're human, and they'll vote for the familiar -- which means Zain. Especially because Zain will give them reason to consider nobody else.

As far as "149 is weaker" goes, maybe there's a reason no 141s are growing -- for example, McKenna and Hayes wrestling off for the right to not eat this year.

 

[slushhead]

If the voters followed the stated criteria, Zain would already be a 2x winner.

But they're human, and they'll vote for the familiar -- which means Zain. Especially because Zain will give them reason to consider nobody else.

As far as "149 is weaker" goes, maybe there's a reason no 141s are growing -- for example, McKenna and Hayes wrestling off for the right to not eat this year.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that Zain has Hodge hardware (and IMar doesn't), and wonder whether that falls under "past accomplishments". Some might see it as double-dipping (counting a past Hodge win toward points for a future Hodge consoderation), but who knows.

And under the unwritten Criterion #7 (Human Nature), a past Hodge win could hurt Zain's chances with those who like to spread the wealth and help ensure each all-time great gets a moment in the sun. Obviously, I have no idea how many such voters there are.

And, for the same reason, I wouldn't rule out Snyder (in reality). How does a guy of his caliber graduate without a top award like that? Some voters may feel compelled to go by their own instincts.

 

[PSUaggie]

Great points raised above. I picked Zain and think it's his to lose if he dominates like he did last year.

Nolf might need to wait until Zain graduates.

Imar will be a voter favorite in his senior season. His loss to Joseph will fuel him. How much will Perry's departure impact Imar's performance?

If Bo goes undefeated this year and pins at the same rate he did last season then he will be a strong contender.

Snyder... maybe if he wrestles the majority of the schedule or enters a few collegiate tournaments.

 

[Dogwelder]

Is Zahid in Nickal’s weight class?

 

[Dogwelder]

It would be cool if Mark Hall puts himself into the conversation this year.

 

[PSUisawesome]

It would be cool if Mark Hall puts himself into the conversation this year.

Is Zahid in Nickal’s weight class?

Mark and Zahid wrestle on November 5. It might answer a lot of questions. If Mark lost he'd light a fire. If he wins he still has to live up to what his team
Is doing bonus wise. So either way I see him with a high bonus percentage possibility beating two of the better P4P wrestlers in the country in BoJo and Zahid so anything is possible. I see Zain setting all kinds of records and walking away with it this year.

 

[lobo lion]

If the voters followed the stated criteria, Zain would already be a 2x winner.

But they're human, and they'll vote for the familiar -- which means Zain. Especially because Zain will give them reason to consider nobody else.

As far as "149 is weaker" goes, maybe there's a reason no 141s are growing -- for example, McKenna and Hayes wrestling off for the right to not eat this year.

"maybe there's a reason no 141s are growing"

This. I'd chop a leg off to avoid being in Zain's weight class.

 

[slushhead]

"maybe there's a reason no 141s are growing"

This. I'd chop a leg off to avoid being in Zain's weight class.

A poll of current and former wrestlers found that chopping a single leg off was preferred to having both a leg chewed off and an arm torn out of its socket.

 

[El-Jefe]

A poll of current and former wrestlers found that chopping a single leg off was preferred to having both a leg chewed off and an arm torn out of its socket.

Presumably if you chop off your own leg, well in advance of the match and nowhere near the arena, Zain will have a hard time stuffing it in your ear all the way up to the knee.

I'd hide the leg in an undisclosed secured location anyway, just to be safe.

 

[RoarLions1]

If the voters followed the stated criteria, Zain would already be a 2x winner.

But they're human, and they'll vote for the familiar -- which means Zain. Especially because Zain will give them reason to consider nobody else.

As far as "149 is weaker" goes, maybe there's a reason no 141s are growing -- for example, McKenna and Hayes wrestling off for the right to not eat this year.

Another aspect of being "human" is the slight bias that voters have. Voters (there's around 45 now) get 4 votes, and vote for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. A 1st Place vote gets 4 points, a 2nd Place vote 3 points, etc.

In 2014, DT won his second Hodge. That year, 3 other wrestlers received 1st Place votes, Stieber, Ruth and Perry. One voter had DT as his 4th Place pick.

Just an example of the slight bias, or maybe regional/team preference. Not saying it's bad/good, as it's why there's a democratic vote. A 4th Place for David that year though, is way out there.

 

[KidDagger]

Zain. The end

 

[jammenz]

Zain needs 37 pins this season to tie Minny's career pin leader.

 

[Gebmo]

Zain needs 37 pins this season to tie Minny's career pin leader.

Or you could look at it this way. If I count right, he is TIED with all of Minny's starters this year combined.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Zain needs 37 pins this season to tie Minny's career pin leader.

Yeah, but if he sells 37 Xanax, will that put him at the top of the Minnie sales chart?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Yeah, but if he sells 37 Xanax, will that put him at the top of the Minnie sales chart?

Honestly, let's leave that alone. Only invites far more tasteless responses.

 

[jammenz]

I changed my avatar in honor of PSU recruiting.

 

[RoarLions1]

Drivel... Could we get back to the topic of the thread, please.

 

[Lion-around]

I changed my avatar in honor of PSU recruiting.

Well if Jammenz wants to recognize and acknowledge the 'Monopoly' Penn State is having in crowning champions and championships - have at it!

 

[dunkej01]

Well if Jammenz wants to recognize and acknowledge the 'Monopoly' Penn State is having in crowning champions and championships - have at it!

whats older monopoly the game or Jammenz?

 

[PSUaggie]

Maybe Cael should grow a mustache and wear a top hat, like the monopoly guy.

 

[diggerpup]

I changed my avatar in honor of PSU recruiting.

Some of your better work.
I laughed out loud for 10-15 seconds.

#dontencouragehim