Why Clifford is so important.....

[Texas Lion]

For all of you hating Cliff coming back. I want you to pay attention:

Cliff comes back, holds the spot, and we go in to next year with Cliff, CV, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl in the QB Room.

Cliff doesn't come back.....Allar beats out the other 3 in spring ball. CV portals after spring and we go in to Fall with a QB Room of Allar, Pribula, and Stahl.


For the good of the program we need Cliff to stay, win the job, and at worst go in to fall with Cliff, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl and at best still have all 5.

 

[PSULionsDub]

First off, Clifford has hit his ceiling and he is not going to get better. Look at how he performed in the Outback Bowl against an average team (Arkansas was not a good defensive team).

Second off, CV will be in the transfer portal after Spring ball, barring a torn ACL/season ending injury for Clifford or Allar. CV is 3rd string out of them, and he will not sit behind Allar going forward, so CV will find greener pastures. CV was not confident in his abilities during his recruiting process, which is why he demanded that certain teams only recruit himself and not a 2nd QB in his recruiting class.

Lastly, Clifford is good for 5-8 wins next year if things go as expected. However, a part of me just wants the Clifford era to end and to have the Drew Allar era to begin and we take our lumps in 2022 for the benefit of 2023/2024.

 

[The Spin Meister]

For all of you hating Cliff coming back. I want you to pay attention:

Cliff comes back, holds the spot, and we go in to next year with Cliff, CV, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl in the QB Room.

Cliff doesn't come back.....Allar beats out the other 3 in spring ball. CV portals after spring and we go in to Fall with a QB Room of Allar, Pribula, and Stahl.


For the good of the program we need Cliff to stay, win the job, and at worst go in to fall with Cliff, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl and at best still have all 5.

CV is far more likely to portal if SC stays. If SC is gone then CV and Allar would be the top two and CV would stick around to fight for the starting job. And he would have an edge as he has been around a year, knows the system already, knows the receivers, knows the coaches, and the coaches know him. Methinks he would start in the fall if SC was out of the picture.

 

[Texas Lion]

First off, Clifford has hit his ceiling and he is not going to get better. Look at how he performed in the Outback Bowl against an average team (Arkansas was not a good defensive team).

Second off, CV will be in the transfer portal after Spring ball, barring a torn ACL/season ending injury for Clifford or Allar. CV is 3rd string out of them, and he will not sit behind Allar going forward, so CV will find greener pastures. CV was not confident in his abilities during his recruiting process, which is why he demanded that certain teams only recruit himself and not a 2nd QB in his recruiting class.

Lastly, Clifford is good for 5-8 wins next year if things go as expected. However, a part of me just wants the Clifford era to end and to have the Drew Allar era to begin and we take our lumps in 2022 for the benefit of 2023/2024.

You wish for that and u run the risk of a much more depleted qb room than we had this year.

CV is far more likely to portal if SC stays. If SC is gone then CV and Allar would be the top two and CV would stick around to fight for the starting job. And he would have an edge as he has been around a year, knows the system already, knows the receivers, knows the coaches, and the coaches know him. Methinks he would start in the fall if SC was out of the picture.

Don’t agree. SC stays and still says CV can win the job the next year.

 

[The Spin Meister]

You wish for that and u run the risk of a much more depleted qb room than we had this year.

Don’t agree. SC stays and still says CV can win the job the next year.

That makes no sense. If you are saying that Allar would beat him out for starter he would certainly beat him out for the back up QB job. Why would ha g around as third string if SC stays?

 

[NittanyIllinois]

For all of you hating Cliff coming back. I want you to pay attention:

Cliff comes back, holds the spot, and we go in to next year with Cliff, CV, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl in the QB Room.

Cliff doesn't come back.....Allar beats out the other 3 in spring ball. CV portals after spring and we go in to Fall with a QB Room of Allar, Pribula, and Stahl.


For the good of the program we need Cliff to stay, win the job, and at worst go in to fall with Cliff, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl and at best still have all 5.

What you are describing is big boy football.

In the portal age, talented recruits -- particularly QB -- want playing time early. If they don't get it, they're high flight risks.

That's how it is.

You don't deny an uber-talented freshman the job because you're afraid of other QBs bolting. That's insane. Now, there are advantages to Clifford staying another year and Allar learning the ropes. But you don't implement that game plan merely because you're afraid of kids transferring.

If we want to be a legit power, this comes with that territory. Alternatively, we could recruit a bunch of homegrown 3* types and not have to worry about this kind of stuff. But that's probably not the best path to national relevance.

 

[ryoder1]

I guess your point is SC stays and then we keep CV all next year. Your argument doesn't make a lot of sense for these reasons:
1) Clifford is not that good so the best we do with him next year is 9-3 and that could be a pipe dream.
2) Whether Clifford is there or not CV is going to evaluate himself against Allar and Pribula. If he is not ahead of both of them by the end of Spring he will probably bolt to the portal so he is not on the team this Fall. Remember a 2nd string guy needs to be named. If Allar beats him out then so be it.
3) Allar as a true Frosh probably gets us as many wins as SC can. Maybe SC starts and beats Purdue since it is game #1 on the road but if Allar has to start we lose that one. But at the end of the day their records would be close. It is not like SC will take us to the playoff but Allar will lose 5 games.

 

[JayWye]

For all of you hating Cliff coming back. I want you to pay attention:

Cliff comes back, holds the spot, and we go in to next year with Cliff, CV, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl in the QB Room.

Cliff doesn't come back.....Allar beats out the other 3 in spring ball. CV portals after spring and we go in to Fall with a QB Room of Allar, Pribula, and Stahl.


For the good of the program we need Cliff to stay, win the job, and at worst go in to fall with Cliff, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl and at best still have all 5.

Disagree...Clifford staying simply muddies the water. What you saw in the Outback is what you get from him at this point. Do you really want to trot him out there at Purdue, Auburn, Michigan...even IU since they got a good portal QB from Mizzou. Then there's the whiteout game with OSU on Oct. 1. Ouch! The word's out there that he's inaccurate and wilts under pressure. No thanks!!!...let the young bucks duke it out...we've seen enough of Clifford.

 

[Texas Lion]

Disagree...Clifford staying simply muddies the water. What you saw in the Outback is what you get from him at this point. Do you really want to trot him out there at Purdue, Auburn, Michigan...even IU since they got a good portal QB from Mizzou. Then there's the whiteout game with OSU on Oct. 1. Ouch! The word's out there that he's inaccurate and wilts under pressure. No thanks!!!...let the young bucks duke it out...we've seen enough of Clifford.

Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[massimoManca II]

Time for SC14 to move on...

i know a guy who stuck around his PSU fraternity for what seemed like 6yrs

sounds like a party... actually pretty sad

 

[jbenedict]

As I said many months ago, yes many months ago. Clifford needs to go.

 

[Texas Lion]

Thank goodness people on this board aren’t in charge of Cliff!!!

 

[tlbakernc]

You want to fix Clifford fix that OL. That will go long way in helping his accuracy and reads. Not having a running attack also hurts his game. Wonder how bad his injury effected him. He was never the same after the injury at Iowa. Wasn’t even close to the player we saw early in the season.

 

[cyrizzle]

If, and it’s a big if…Singleton is the real deal, we establish some toughness on our O line, and we are able to somewhat consistently run the ball, I think Sean will be ok. He needs help, and he’s not going to beat teams by himself. Unfortunately, he’s not that type of QB or athlete and he never will be.

Imo, the main focus of the off-season has to be to establish the run game. I like the talent in our running back room with Singleton and Allen coming in assuming Lee and Cain stay. Our running backs weren’t the problem this season. Rather, it was our putrid O line who played soft and with no edge. They were the biggest disappointment on the team by far. Let’s focus on getting some toughness on the O line and at least being a middle of the pack team in the big ten when it comes to rushing offense. That’s all I ask. Then Sean could take off in his last season!

 

[bvillebaron]

What you are describing is big boy football.

In the portal age, talented recruits -- particularly QB -- want playing time early. If they don't get it, they're high flight risks.

That's how it is.

You don't deny an uber-talented freshman the job because you're afraid of other QBs bolting. That's insane. Now, there are advantages to Clifford staying another year and Allar learning the ropes. But you don't implement that game plan merely because you're afraid of kids transferring.

If we want to be a legit power, this comes with that territory. Alternatively, we could recruit a bunch of homegrown 3* types and not have to worry about this kind of stuff. But that's probably not the best path to national relevance.

Exactly. Obviously Day wasn’t concerned about the QB who left. He wisely played the best one all year: Stroud.

 

[bvillebaron]

If, and it’s a big if…Singleton is the real deal, we establish some toughness on our O line, and we are able to somewhat consistently run the ball, I think Sean will be ok. He needs help, and he’s not going to beat teams by himself. Unfortunately, he’s not that type of QB or athlete and he never will be.

Imo, the main focus of the off-season has to be to establish the run game. I like the talent in our running back room with Singleton and Allen coming in assuming Lee and Cain stay. Our running backs weren’t the problem this season. Rather, it was our putrid O line who played soft and with no edge. They were the biggest disappointment on the team by far. Let’s focus on getting some toughness on the O line and at least being a middle of the pack team in the big ten when it comes to rushing offense. That’s all I ask. Then Sean could take off in his last season!

Agree with you point about Clifford. Disagree with you point about the running backs. While the offensive line was lousy, I didn’t see a burst from any RB through even the small holes that were there which I saw RBs on other teams do routinely every week. Reports are that Singleton has the best burst of all the RBs this week in practice at the all star game practices. We will see if that is true Saturday and next year at Penn State but I am optimistic.

 

[Texas Lion]

If, and it’s a big if…Singleton is the real deal, we establish some toughness on our O line, and we are able to somewhat consistently run the ball, I think Sean will be ok. He needs help, and he’s not going to beat teams by himself. Unfortunately, he’s not that type of QB or athlete and he never will be.

Imo, the main focus of the off-season has to be to establish the run game. I like the talent in our running back room with Singleton and Allen coming in assuming Lee and Cain stay. Our running backs weren’t the problem this season. Rather, it was our putrid O line who played soft and with no edge. They were the biggest disappointment on the team by far. Let’s focus on getting some toughness on the O line and at least being a middle of the pack team in the big ten when it comes to rushing offense. That’s all I ask. Then Sean could take off in his last season!

I think if the online comes around and Singleton is the real deal that Clifford will have a Kenny Pickett like season.

 

[Ian]

Heck, after this year, I’ll take 9-3 with that schedule and the holes on both lines, LB, and Safety. Build it up for 2023.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Agree with you point about Clifford. Disagree with you point about the running backs. While the offensive line was lousy, I didn’t see a burst from any RB through even the small holes that were there which I saw RBs on other teams do routinely every week. Reports are that Singleton has the best burst of all the RBs this week in practice at the all star game practices. We will see if that is true Saturday and next year at Penn State but I am optimistic.

I suggest you try running the ball twenty times ...and get hit in the backfield 10-12-15 times. Let’s see if you still have confidence to hit the line a full speed. Give Cain or Lee a good line and you will see what they can do. Give Singleton a crappy line like ours this past year and he will soon start doing the three step boogie as soon as he gets the ball.

You should talk to a running back and ask him what it’s like to run a trap play or with a pulling guard. You get the ball, take two steps towards the line, and you see some big chooch ready to rip your head off. Just as you prep for major collusion, a flash of your teammate goes by as he throws a block and opens the hole. At least, that is what is supposed to happen.

Have that guy trip...or miss the block...or get there just after you get creamed......and see how that changes your running style.

We have good backs. A couple decent QBs. We seriously need either better o linemen, better o line coaches, or a better scheme. Most likely a little of all three with an emphasis on better talent.

 

[GregInPitt]

I guess your point is SC stays and then we keep CV all next year. Your argument doesn't make a lot of sense for these reasons:
1) Clifford is not that good so the best we do with him next year is 9-3 and that could be a pipe dream.
2) Whether Clifford is there or not CV is going to evaluate himself against Allar and Pribula. If he is not ahead of both of them by the end of Spring he will probably bolt to the portal so he is not on the team this Fall. Remember a 2nd string guy needs to be named. If Allar beats him out then so be it.
3) Allar as a true Frosh probably gets us as many wins as SC can. Maybe SC starts and beats Purdue since it is game #1 on the road but if Allar has to start we lose that one. But at the end of the day their records would be close. It is not like SC will take us to the playoff but Allar will lose 5 games.

That's how I see it as well, although if Clifford had left I believe Franklin would not name a starter until game week #1 next Fall. And even if there were only Allar and Pribula entering next Summer Franklin could find a portal QB (not a highly sought after QB) to have 3 QB's for the Fall. But Veilleux may have stayed anyway.

Clifford is not accurate, and that is after starting 3 years. He also does not have nearly the pocket escape-ability that Picket does. Picket's ability to escape sacks due to his vision, awareness, decision making, and quickness is unique among college QB's. In one of the PSU/Pitt games I believe PSU sacked Picket twice, but my impression was that PSU should have gotten him at least 5 more times. Clifford takes far too many sacks, at least some of which he could avoid by either moving out of the pocket or throwing the ball away. And this after starting 3 years. Clifford is also a very very poor deep ball passer, consistently over throwing over 50% of deep passes to very open WR's, which is abysmal. Even underthrown balls versus single coverage can turn into positive plays as the WR usually has a better track on the ball to make the catch and underthrown balls do draw some PI penalties. As one of the NFL draft analysts pointed out, Clifford overthrew 3 balls in just one of the games this season to Dotson that would have resulted in over 150 yards of additional yardage to Dotson's season and 3 more TD's, where Dotson was 5 yards or more behind the coverage.

And although I hate to see talented player transfer out of PSU, it is the world we live in now. So believing that Veilleux, Allar and Pribula will all be at PSU for the 2024 season is a pipe dream, and it is probably likely that the 3 of them won't all be at PSU in 2023. Franklin and Yurcich will be recruiting 1 or 2 QB's in each recruiting class and if they get in a jam going to the portal, just like every top 30 team will be doing.

And the up side of a young QB playing in 2022 would be the development of that QB and a chance to have a QB much better than Clifford, with experience, going into 2023. Some might say why do you believe that young QB will be better than Clifford? Well, because I have seen enough of Clifford to believe he is not accurate enough to win BIG games, and he does not have the decision making to pull out tough games against other great teams, as we have seen the last 3 years. Time to develop the next great PSU QB, under more consistent QB coaching, from the 3 highly recruited and talented young QB's now on the roster......... JMO, sorry for the ramble...

 

[mdking001]

Clifford is staying. He wants to pass to his kid brother. Franklin will roll with that period. There is no debate here. Franklin is set for ten years and has no worries about anything. Not saying I agree with it. I’ma Cincy guy and really rooted for Clifford. It’s been up and down obviously. But at this point I’m hoping they send him to one of those qb camps and he comes out strong next year because he is qb1 until he gets hurt period.

 

[YorkLion]

Clifford is nothing more than a sign of the times. He needs to move on and allow other student/athletes the chance.

 

[Waste Management Consultant]

@ Purdue Sept.3, 2022: Let Clifford throw a TD to his brother.
Ohio Sept. Sept. 10, 2022: The Drew Allar Era begins.

 

[palmettolion]

I can see arguments for both sides. Clifford has had 3 OC's, and I think 3 O- line coaches in 3 years. 2 years of the same coaches may let him see significant improvement.

He was all over the place in the Outback. He did injure himself in the first series(non throwing hand/finger), which probably didn't help but his inaccuracies are a problem.

The mounting injuries are my 2nd biggest concern for our QB. The first is the HC almost always opting for a clearly injured starting QB over a healthy backup. Gotta be frustrating if you're QB2, solid reason to portal. Clifford's occasional habit of locking onto one target also makes me wonder what happens when his brother is on the field.

 

[Crusher1950]

Clifford is a division 2 Qb he is taking this team absolutely nowhere

 

[SLion]

We went 11-2 and won Cotton Bowl with Clifford. Why? I think a dominant running game with Brown had a lot to do with it. If you are relying on Clifford to make all the throws, play mistake free, ad-hoc runs, play through injuries to win games..that is recipe for disaster for any QB. We are asking too much of him.

 

[Texas Lion]

What happens if Allar comes out tomorrow and is just horrible when there is an actual defense in front of him? I understand the frustrations with Clifford, I have lived them as well. but damn me if I am going to go away from a 6th year QB because a kid had a great High School Career.

Did anyone not see Pickett this year compared to other years?

 

[Texas Lion]

We went 11-2 and won Cotton Bowl with Clifford. Why? I think a dominant running game with Brown had a lot to do with it. If you are relying on Clifford to make all the throws, play mistake free, ad-hoc runs, play through injuries to win games..that is recipe for disaster for any QB. We are asking too much of him.

Yes, Yes, a million times yes. IMO Singleton is the most important recruit this year, not Allar. Our backs are slow and even if they break through they aren't taking it to the house, I could catch them in the open field.

 

[SLion]

Yes, Yes, a million times yes. IMO Singleton is the most important recruit this year, not Allar. Our backs are slow and even if they break through they aren't taking it to the house, I could catch them in the open field.

Cain was by far and away the biggest disappointment. We needed a strong N/S runner that could break tackles. Watching FR year, he had it. Something happened with that injury. Lee is average RB with some moves but his speed is practically laughable. Ford was a recruiting miss. I am waiting on portal for Devyn.

 

[Callthestall]

Normally I'm a wrestling forum guy but I got linked here accidentally.
Since I'm here, 50 year diehard PSU football fan. When I was 21, myself and 3 of my friends packed in my Toyota Celica Hatchback and drove 24 hours to New Orleans and watched the First Championship.
Franklin is not adapting his teams to his talent. The stubbornness to try to run that ball between tackles the last 2 years is just stupid.
He didn't want Levis to compete for QB position. When he played him he was treated as an H back. He had more upside than Clifford. Might be the 5th QB drafted this year. Franklin wanted Clifford to be McSorley, who saw the field much better. Watch the Arkansas game when he forced the throw to back corner of endzone to guy that was blanketed and had help help underneath. Warren ran a curl to middle of field and was wide open. Clifford locks onto his primary way too much.
Franklin better start adapting and recognize his talent pool. The idea Sandy gave him 10 year deal was stupid. He should of been given this year with his recruiting class and 2nd year of OC as his make or break year.

 

[Texas Lion]

Cain was by far and away the biggest disappointment. We needed a strong N/S runner that could break tackles. Watching FR year, he had it. Something happened with that injury. Lee is average RB with some moves but his speed is practically laughable. Ford was a recruiting miss. I am waiting on portal for Devyn.

I think Ford stays and is the primary every down back back-up to Singleton. Cain or Lee leave and leave Allen and the other as the 3rd down back.

Either way can they PLEASE pick one back and go with that back. Enough of everyone is my buddy and we are going to get everyone their carries even if the guy playing is doing really well.

 

[lowhandicapper]

These are the only upper classmen (juniors or seniors) on power 5 teams that had a worse QB rating than Clifford:

Schrader- Cuse
Vedral - Rutgers
Petras - Iowa
Bean - Kansas
Peters - Illini
Nix - Auburn
Holmberg - Duke

Make what you will of it. I think some of them were 1st year starters. I'm not sure people at any school would be excited for their bottom of the statistic QB was retuning for a 4th season to start, let alone one with annual expectations like Penn State.

 

[BBrown]

For all of you hating Cliff coming back. I want you to pay attention:

Cliff comes back, holds the spot, and we go in to next year with Cliff, CV, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl in the QB Room.

Cliff doesn't come back.....Allar beats out the other 3 in spring ball. CV portals after spring and we go in to Fall with a QB Room of Allar, Pribula, and Stahl.


For the good of the program we need Cliff to stay, win the job, and at worst go in to fall with Cliff, Allar, Pribula, and Stahl and at best still have all 5.

Sean is an Avg. QB in a very good Conf. he would have been a very good QB in the 80's and 90's.
It will be very, very interesting to see how Franklin and MY handle this. I do not have my expectations set high.

 

[BBrown]

You want to fix Clifford fix that OL. That will go long way in helping his accuracy and reads. Not having a running attack also hurts his game. Wonder how bad his injury effected him. He was never the same after the injury at Iowa. Wasn’t even close to the player we saw early in the season.

It will help but I'm not sure anything will fix his "accuracy" issues. A lot of his long range misses to wide open WR's were not becasue of pressure.

 

[GregInPitt]

What happens if Allar comes out tomorrow and is just horrible when there is an actual defense in front of him? I understand the frustrations with Clifford, I have lived them as well. but damn me if I am going to go away from a 6th year QB because a kid had a great High School Career.

Did anyone not see Pickett this year compared to other years?

I respect your opinion on Clifford, but Picket always had the ability to extend plays, as was evident in the last PSU/Pitt game. And Picket improved year to year, versus Clifford's regression, or at least failure to improve, in results and decision making.

And I believe you are being unfair to Allar. If he is indeed the #1 QB coming out of H.S., with the way QB's coming out have had improved coaching and the top one's have hit the ground running, I don't see how discounting the probability that Allar could succeed is fair. Look at what Williams did at OK, what the top QB's have done in their first seasons at Clemson, Bama,..... And even without Clifford, the competition among Veilleux, Allar, and Pribula this Spring and into Summer would have made all 3 better. Really, I would have expected Veilleux to win that battle - he did a great job in his limited audition and he showed accuracy beyond what Clifford has shown in 3 years.

We'll just have to agree to disagree and hope Clifford improves. If not I hope he is on a short leash....

 

[ItsAllGoodMan]

Let's see what happens with the OLine. I've seen numerous high draft QB's in the NFL get destroyed physically and lose confidence early in their careers playing on teams with bad OLines. You could see Arkansas knew we could not block them when they blitzed and they teed off. MY needs to develop an answer for these scenarios.

If you step back, everyone was saying "if we had a healthy Clifford, we beat Iowa....." Everyone is so reactionary to the last game.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is the offensive system. I thought the offense looked OK early in the season and then it floundered as we got into the meat of the schedule. Even the early part of the Michigan game, it functioned well and then stalled. Also recall the passes that were dropped that game.

I think it has to be difficult to call plays if you are not comfortable with the OLine being able to do its job. My biggest criticism would be that we didn't go to the younger guys on the OLine earlier in the season, especially if the upperclassmen are not performing.

The other thing we were missing is a HR threat at RB. I am hopeful Singleton helps in this regard.

 

[GulfCoastLion]

Time for SC14 to move on...

i know a guy who stuck around his PSU fraternity for what seemed like 6yrs

sounds like a party... actually pretty sad

Well said. Nobody should be in a program for 6 years. Your analogy to the 6th year fraternity brother(s) rings so true. Cliff should simply become a grad assistant if that’s what he aspires. He could achieve his goals, etc that way. He’s never going to the NFL and he’s not leading this team out of mediocrity by coming back. Time for the young guns (Vellieux, Allar, Pribula) to take over and compete for the QB job. All are on campus in January to learn, practice, compete over the next 9 months for the job.

 

[Texas Lion]

Read so many "Cliff can't stay healthy" posts in this thread that makes me wonder.....who cares if he comes back or not, he is going to get hurt and then "Wonder" boy can take over. Shit, last years "Wonder" boy took over for spencer Rattler and led Oklahoma to the Alamo Bowl....we could only be so lucky.

 

[tlbakernc]

It will help but I'm not sure anything will fix his "accuracy" issues. A lot of his long range misses to wide open WR's were not becasue of pressure.

I agree. I’m not sure if his accuracy will improve in situations like you describe. My hope is consistency in OL play leads to better mechanics and decisions. It certainly will help his health.

Have a feeling CV may give Clifford a run for his money in spring.

 

[JayWye]

Read so many "Cliff can't stay healthy" posts in this thread that makes me wonder.....who cares if he comes back or not, he is going to get hurt and then "Wonder" boy can take over. Shit, last years "Wonder" boy took over for spencer Rattler and led Oklahoma to the Alamo Bowl....we could only be so lucky.

Not sure who Wonder Boy is...if it's CV, he's looked good in limited action. Why not give him some reps against good competition. What do you have to lose?