Who wins a fight in their prime, Ali or Tyson?
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Ali's hand speed and foot speed way too fast for Iron Mike and his height and reach advantage keeps Tyson from controlling the action. People overlook the fact that Ali could also take a punch: Frazier, Foreman in his prime, and Ernie Shavers.
In Ali's prime, there was no faster heavyweight. There was no better heavyweight. He was The Greatest.
In Ali's prime, there was no faster heavyweight. There was no better heavyweight. He was The Greatest.
Agreed. In his prime, Ali beats Tyson. It might not even be close.
Ali was the greatest...except for one guy on one night and that would be Smokin' Joe on March 8, 1971...the greatest fight in history.
Granted, I don't know that Ali was at the tip-top of his game after the layoff of 3-years plus. But at age 29 with a couple tune-ups under his belt in the preceding months, he was pretty close to that level.
Doesn't matter though. I don't think any boxer who ever lived could have beaten Frazier that night.
It never ceases to amaze me how boxing fans overrate Mike Tyson. Anytime he fought someone who wasn’t afraid of him and had real boxing skills he got annihilated (Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis). He was a great puncher and was entertaining but my gosh if James “Quick” Tillis had power he would have beat Tyson. Tyson could not fight backing up and when his opponent didn’t crumble early he fell apart. Ali took punches from George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Earnie Shavers, Sonny Liston , etc. He wasn’t afraid and in terms of hand speed and footwork he was better than anyone whoever fought in the division in his prime.
One of the closest things to superhuman I have ever witnessed in sports is when Ali took a perfect left hook from Joe Frazier in the 15th round, one of the greatest left hook punchers of all time, and immediately jumped up after he went down. He was on another planet.
Ironically, it was me watching Tyson film on Youtube lately and thinking, he's like Frazier except a harder puncher and way better at defense that caused me make this poll. I used to think Ali would win but now I say Tyson. That said, I think a lot would be determined by how each chose to fight. I mean, strategy counts for a lot for the sake of this poll maybe I should have added, assuming each fights an equally smart fight.
Ali was a beast before and after his layoff during a time period when there were multiple great heavyweights. Definitely hung on a bit too long, but a lot have.
Tyson was great before the Douglas fight during a weak heavyweight era and no more than a box office attraction after his layoff during an improved heavyweight era.
Tyson was destined to struggle with taller heavyweights who had chins, skill, and no fear. You can't beat your genetics.
Kind of shocked Foreman isn't the comp. Both were absolute bruisers until they lost once. Foreman recovered better IMO.
Tyson was great before the Douglas fight during a weak heavyweight era and no more than a box office attraction after his layoff during an improved heavyweight era.
Tyson was destined to struggle with taller heavyweights who had chins, skill, and no fear. You can't beat your genetics.
Kind of shocked Foreman isn't the comp. Both were absolute bruisers until they lost once. Foreman recovered better IMO.
I'd say Tyson's peak was pre-Douglas and he was so invincible for awhile that complacency was inevitable. I'd say he was way past his peak by the time he got out of jail and fought people like Holyfield.
Watch Tyson and watch Smokin' Joe Frazier. I loved Smokin' Joe but he simply couldn't avoid getting hit a lot. Whoever matched him up against a big puncher like Foreman was crazy. Tyson could play defense and he hit harder than Joe.
Look at 1:58 to 2:10 of this clip of Tyson. I know what you'll say, "Who's this Reggie Gross guy?"
Tyson up to the point where he fired Kevin Rooney was a different animal. Unbelievable power and hand speed and a real student of the game. Most couldn't handle the power when fighting him, but he also knew how to box, learning from watching the greats. Once D'Amato died and you had people like Robin Givens, Don King, etc. around Tyson he wasn't the same. What happened with Buster Douglas was inevitable. If it wasn't Douglas it would have been someone else. Anything after that and his prison sentence was pretty much a payday. Up until 1988 or so, ending with the beat-down of Michael Spinks, he was on a trajectory to possibly be a Top 5 or Top 10 heavyweight of all time. After that, other than his power he was average for a top heavyweight, especially against elite fighters.
Ali had great skills and something like a 7-inch height advantage and unless somehow caught early - unlikely since he was never knocked out - would likely have rope-a-doped and frustrated Tyson and probably knocked him out late or won on a UD.
Ali would cut Iron Man Mike's face to shreds before he could land a haymaker.
Now there's an interesting match-up: Frazier versus Tyson. In my mind, Smokin' Joe all the way. He not only had a wicked hook, he also had character and heart. Tyson: not so much.
But back to the Ali/Tyson question in the OP, Ali actually twice fought a guy who was one of the better heavyweights in history and might even be called the Mike Tyson of his time, namely Sonny Liston, and the record is clear on how that went.
Granted, there are still some questions connected with both those fights, but Ali proved himself on a whole different level from Liston who at the time was dominating the heavyweight division.
Difficult to compare boxers of different eras, especially the Heavyweights. Look at how “heavyweight” size has increased over the decades. Ali fought at around 212-ish. Marciano would be a Cruiserweight today, and he literally knocked Joe Louis (205-ish, and a great champion) out of the ring. Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis were huge, but then you had the Klitchkos and then Tyson Fury, who fights at around 280 and destroys heavyweights that weigh 250!
That being said, Ali’s speed and skill, plus his very under-rated chin, would defeat Tyson. If a 235-ish George Foreman in his prime couldn’t over-power Ali, there is no way Tyson could have.
One minor argument though - Duran vs Leonard in Montreal was the best fight I ever saw. I’ll take the busier, quicker great welterweights over the great heavyweights. But Ali’s fights were always events!
That being said, Ali’s speed and skill, plus his very under-rated chin, would defeat Tyson. If a 235-ish George Foreman in his prime couldn’t over-power Ali, there is no way Tyson could have.
One minor argument though - Duran vs Leonard in Montreal was the best fight I ever saw. I’ll take the busier, quicker great welterweights over the great heavyweights. But Ali’s fights were always events!
Ali..no question in my mind. Ali had a great jab. He had a 78 inch reach. He had all the tools, plus being a very, very smart fighter. Tyson was just a brawler with a devastating punch. But his reach was only 71 inches. I don't think Iron Mike gets inside before Ali does considerable damage. Plus, I don't think MT is very smart. I think Ali would tie him in knots.
It was Ali's foot speed that set him apart. With regard to hand speed, Mike Tyson's hands were every bit as fast as Ali's perhaps even faster. I listed it as a draw simply because when comparing the two fighters there are a lot of variables. Those who reference Ali's chin are not remembering the Henry Cooper fight and the split glove that delayed the start of the fifth round. The knock down happened at the end of the fourth round and Ali did get to his feet quickly, however there was a wobble as he walked back to the corner that was not seen with oher Ali knockdowns.
The fight was stopped in the fifth round by the referee due to cuts. Cooper was a marvelously skilled fighter whose zenith was limited unfortunately due to his propensity to cut. The Cooper / Ali fight is on youtube. Watch it, the thing that catches your eye is how often Cooper was able to connect, where others often whiffed.
Ali had a great chin, but his ability to take a punch was also attributable to his ability to roll with the punch. Many of the blows that he took if you watch closely, his chin is already moving away from the fist as the blow comes across his chin.
Mike Tyson was at his peek at age 22. Watching him through the years, I would hypothesize that he had an exceptional amount of high twitch muscle fiber which tends to lose its explosiveness early. By the time he fought Buster Douglas, he was already physically middle aged. A couple years later, even though he was still in his early thirties, he was getting beat by tomato cans who wouldn't have lasted 2 rounds with him 10 years earlier. The snap and explosion in his punches were gone by then.
If forced to choose, I would say Ali would probably win. That however does not discount that if Tyson connects early similar to what Cooper did, he would probably finish Ali off with the hand speed and explosive power.
Good analysis. I think another problem for Tyson was that he got away from the fundamentals and kind of lost the drive that got him there in the first place.
Ali all the way. Not even close. I was never an Ali fan but he would have made a fool of Tyson. I was always a Joe Frazier fan.
Smokin' Joe, before the 1st Ali fight, would have exposed Mike Tyson's glass jaw. After? Joe was never the same fighter after Ali- Frazier I due to the punishment he took in defeating Ali. Frazier was the ultimate warrior much like my 2nd favorite of all time, Marvelous Marvin Hagler.
Smokin' Joe, before the 1st Ali fight, would have exposed Mike Tyson's glass jaw. After? Joe was never the same fighter after Ali- Frazier I due to the punishment he took in defeating Ali. Frazier was the ultimate warrior much like my 2nd favorite of all time, Marvelous Marvin Hagler.
I can't believe 18 people actually voted for Tyson.
A lot of Tyson fans point to his best years being behind when he fought Holyfield etc but Holyfield was way past his prime at age 34 also. Don Turner Holyfields trainer had the perfect game plan for those fights and called the outcome before the fight.
And Bootney Farnsworth would kick all their asses.Balboa in his prime beats both.
Evander was also his first quality opponent. He was used to beating up stiffs, and when
his punches had no effect on Evander, Tyson knew he was done . You could see it in his eyes.
Love the analysis. Ali has a seven inch reach advantage. Tyson would need to bull his way into Ali and Ali would pummel him with jabs. If he did get in, Ali would use that footwork to move. I simply don't see a path to victory for Iron Mike against a very smart and talented Ali.
I'm re-watching the Sopranos and this exact question was asked by one of Tony's crew to Meadow's boyfriend Fin in an episode I watched just last night! For the record, he refused to answer for fear of pissing someone off and getting his a** kicked.
Ali was "The Greatest" during a great era of boxing with legit contenders. Tyson was an amazing specimen and helped rekindle interest in the sport at the onset of the pay per view era. Both were media darlings in their own ways.
In my opinion Ali had infinitely more skill and chops. Tyson would have a punchers chance- below 15%
FWIW I stood 5 feet from Ali at The Sports Illustrated 50th Anniversary party at The Museum of Natural History in the early 90s. His twitching was obvious...kind of a sad memory of a fallen Lion.
I also had the experience of taking a wiz in a radio studio I was managing at the Atlanta Olympics. There was no wall between urinals. I could sense that a big guy had come in and was peeing next to me. While trying my best to finish up and keep the bro code of staring straight ahead silently...dude starts chatting me up. Strange place to meet Evander Holyfield but so it was...and no...I did not look down!
In my opinion Ali had infinitely more skill and chops. Tyson would have a punchers chance- below 15%
FWIW I stood 5 feet from Ali at The Sports Illustrated 50th Anniversary party at The Museum of Natural History in the early 90s. His twitching was obvious...kind of a sad memory of a fallen Lion.
I also had the experience of taking a wiz in a radio studio I was managing at the Atlanta Olympics. There was no wall between urinals. I could sense that a big guy had come in and was peeing next to me. While trying my best to finish up and keep the bro code of staring straight ahead silently...dude starts chatting me up. Strange place to meet Evander Holyfield but so it was...and no...I did not look down!
I expected more people to pick Ali in this poll than Tyson but I was unprepared for the lack of respect Tyson is getting. Maybe yinz are thinking of the older Tyson, but I'm thinking of the young guy. He wasn't just a brawler. He had excellent boxing skills, including defensive skills.
I looked up the measurements and it's hard to get exact numbers because they vary, but as near as I can tell, Tyson was about 1 inch shorter and had about 1 inch shorter reach than Joe Frazier.
Frazier wasn't as good as Ali but he beat him once and it IMO, Tyson is clearly above Frazier, although others disagree, which is why I made this poll. If Frazier can beat Ali 1 in 3 times then I think Tyson could do it 2 in 3, again, assuming he fights smart. For that matter, George Foreman probably could have beaten Ali had he fought smart.
I'm not putting down Ali, he was a great fighter, but he was also a great promoter of himself and between that and the unfairness of him not being allowed to fight for a few years, I think the image of how good he was is overstated. And because the bad part of Tyson's career was later and longer and because he got put in jail for rape, I think the image of how good he was early is understated. He was fast, very strong and very skilled. JMO.
I looked up the measurements and it's hard to get exact numbers because they vary, but as near as I can tell, Tyson was about 1 inch shorter and had about 1 inch shorter reach than Joe Frazier.
Frazier wasn't as good as Ali but he beat him once and it IMO, Tyson is clearly above Frazier, although others disagree, which is why I made this poll. If Frazier can beat Ali 1 in 3 times then I think Tyson could do it 2 in 3, again, assuming he fights smart. For that matter, George Foreman probably could have beaten Ali had he fought smart.
I'm not putting down Ali, he was a great fighter, but he was also a great promoter of himself and between that and the unfairness of him not being allowed to fight for a few years, I think the image of how good he was is overstated. And because the bad part of Tyson's career was later and longer and because he got put in jail for rape, I think the image of how good he was early is understated. He was fast, very strong and very skilled. JMO.
Beat a bunch of tomato cans and a 38 year old Larry Holmes who wasn’t given the proper time to train for the fight by Don King and a scared Michael Spinkks who was a true light heavy. Frazier had way more heart and mental toughness than Mike Tyson. Ali missed the 3 most prime years of his career. Tyson started to get exposed before he went to prison. No doubt the loss of Kevin Rooney and Cus D’Amato hurt his career but he was limited not only by his size and reach but by his bully mentality. Guys like Tillis, Tucker and Green showed chinks in his armor and he couldn’t handle the jab, reach and quickness of a motivated Buster Douglas. To be fair he was a ferocious puncher with fast hands who would have had a punchers chance against anyone.
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I love Joe Frazier but if he hadn't beaten Ali that first time, people wouldn't be saying how great Ali was by beating him three times. The fact that Ali lost to him made his later wins over Frazier look better. Tyson didn't have that (in the early years I mean...I'm saying that peak Tyson came before losing to Buster Douglas).
One of the reasons George Foreman is considered so good is because he came back after the age of 38 and won the title. If he hadn't come back, by now people would saying he was a guy with a big punch and nothing else.
People are talking up Sonny Liston. Sonny Liston beat Floyd Patterson, defended his title by beating Patterson again, then lost to Ali. He wasn't some longtime super champ guy. Boxing was a bigger deal back then, so names from back then carry more weight.
The fact that guys like Foreman and Holmes were able to come back at such advanced ages and be so successful is pretty much an indictment against the quality of the heavyweight division in the mid 80’s and on. Kind of proves the point that many of the older classic boxers of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s would have been great in any era. What would a prime late 20’s early 30’s Larry Holmes have done in the 90’s or a mid 20’s Foremanhave done in the 90’s?
In their prime? That's a good one. Both were the best I erver saw, and I'm 60. I'd like to give props to Holyfield, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.
Sonny Liston took a dive. Period. The phantom punch is real.
Norton broke Ali's jaw in Yankee stadium and bacsically beat him up, but lost on the judges cards.
Frazier beat Ali and lost on judges cards (very disputable).
If I'm not mistaken, Holmes won about 40 fights in a row, including a win over Ali. Did he lose to the media?
Remenber the Spinks? Was it Holmes/Foreman killed one and Tyson off'd the other, no?
To answer the question. Wow! what a fight! Vegas would be drooling. Ali was the best. Tyson was a powerhouse. In their heyday, it would have been the best fight ever.
Sonny Liston took a dive. Period. The phantom punch is real.
Norton broke Ali's jaw in Yankee stadium and bacsically beat him up, but lost on the judges cards.
Frazier beat Ali and lost on judges cards (very disputable).
If I'm not mistaken, Holmes won about 40 fights in a row, including a win over Ali. Did he lose to the media?
Remenber the Spinks? Was it Holmes/Foreman killed one and Tyson off'd the other, no?
To answer the question. Wow! what a fight! Vegas would be drooling. Ali was the best. Tyson was a powerhouse. In their heyday, it would have been the best fight ever.
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You nailed it Ian. Depends on which Tyson you are talking about. Kevin Rooney/Cus Damato Tyson was a stone cold killa! Not just his punching power, watch his early fights, NO One TOUCHED HIM! Rooney had him so schooled he was one of the best defensive HWts I have ever seen in those years. That Tyson would have taken it to Ali and I think beaten him. Tyson was that good with Rooney training him!
Once KIng got hold of him it was over. He got him away from Kevin, he was never the same. That Tyson would have gone straight at Ali, and Ali would have wiped the floor with him. Oh, what could have been if he stayed focused and with Kevin. I think he could have beaten Rocky Marciano's record ad retired undefeated.
I don't buy the dive theory. Do boxers take dives? Certainly, but the heavyweight champion of the world?
There's so much ego involved when you're that good in an ultra-competitive individual macho sport. How much do you have to pay the heavyweight champion of the world when he knows he's got a string of big payday fights in front of him as the top draw in boxing?
Not sure about the second fight in Maine but in the first fight Ali absolutely boxed circles around him and beat him up minus the substance put into his eyes.
