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Update on Malcolm Gladwell's book "Talking to Strangers"

Considering that what was reported in 2000/2001/2002 remains very much in dispute to this day and in all likelihood shall remain so in perpetuity? I absolutely and unequivocally believe it would have changed everything.

Having his statement in writing changes everything. The only way the press could suggest his statement was coerced (as someone suggest above) is if McQueary makes that claim himself. Having it in writing cements exactly what he told them (was it horseplay, was it sexual?) and pretty much slams the door on the conspiracy theory.
 
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How is Spanier still fighting for his freedom, while Jack Raykovitz has not been charged with a thing?

Somehow the narrative is that MM told Curley about sexual asault but Curley only told Raykovitz about horseplay.

It also helps that Spanier is indemnified by PSU and they have much deeper pockets than TSM.
 
Mike spoke to Joe for about a minute......I believe Sue has spoken on this. Is she part of the "cover up?"

Is MM's mom part of the coverup? Does anybody believe that MM told stuff to his dad but it never made it's way back to mom?
 
You're still acting like this was on the up and up. PSU was set up!

The answers you seek are in the notes and emails and corroborated, not only by their own testimonies, but also by Raykovitz's suggestion that Jerry wear swim trunks in the shower and Allan Meyer's unsolicited statement to Amendola.

For C/S/S, this was all about prevention. They managed what was in their control, which was the PSU facilities. Beyond that, it this was all TSM's responsibility.

How is Spanier still fighting for his freedom, while Jack Raykovitz has not been charged with a thing?
I strongly disagree. I don't think MM told C&S about sexual assault and I don't think that C&S tried to cover anything up. That said, there is no excuse for failing to document MM's report. That's HR 101.
 
Or his girlfriend?
Sure.

Of course the most logical explanation is that MM didn't tell anybody about sexual assault. The notion that he didn't tell anybody except Joe (sort of) and C&S is not credible.
 
Mike spoke to Joe for about a minute......I believe Sue has spoken on this. Is she part of the "cover up?" LOL All of this and its still very possible that MM's report to Joe came weeks after the incident.

They only spoke for a "minute". I guess Joe was so disinterested that he asked no questions.
 
Sure.

Of course the most logical explanation is that MM didn't tell anybody about sexual assault. The notion that he didn't tell anybody except Joe (sort of) and C&S is not credible.
And you've just identified the issue. Because of the absence of a signed & documented statement, we have to rely on 10-year-old recall to determine whether or not what Mike felt/believed in the moment of the event and what he reported to his father/Dranov/Paterno/Curly/Schultz are the same, are similar, or in fact are different. The devil of this case (as it relates to Penn State) spawns from that very specific detail.
 
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And you've just identified the issue. Because of the absence of a signed & documented statement, we have to rely on 10-year-old recall to determine whether or not what Mike felt/believed in the moment of the event and what he reported to his father/Dranov/Paterno/Curly/Schultz are the same, are similar, or in fact are different. The devil of this case (as it relates to Penn State) spawns from that very specific detail.
You and I have been on the same page with just about everything about this situation, and I hear what you are saying here too. My only issue is that a signed witness statement by an employee to management is a bit of an odd concept to me. I spent a couple decades in the C-suite of an S&P 500 company and never heard of something like that. Perhaps it happens all the time. If I were in the role of management, I can’t imagine a scenario where I felt the need to have my employee sign a witness statement that he didn’t see a child being sexually abused to cover my ass, and not just taking the next step and letting the experts/authorities investigate it.

The fact that they didn’t either document the report or report it to authorities is why I don’t think CSS had any belief at all that sexual abuse was being reported after talking to McQueary and Sandusky.
 
I strongly disagree. I don't think MM told C&S about sexual assault and I don't think that C&S tried to cover anything up. That said, there is no excuse for failing to document MM's report. That's HR 101.
Jerry was not employed by the university. He was employed by TSM. If anybody was required to document the incident, it was JR, who also happened to be a mandatory reporter.

To me, one of the most glaring red flags in this entire saga is that Jack Raykovitz was not charged with anything.
 
....The devil of this case (as it relates to Penn State) spawns from that very specific detail.
Schultz's notes and the email exchange between C/S/S make it clear that the PSU officials did not believe there was a victim here.

The devil of this case is that PSU was set up by Tom Corbett to take the fall for TSM and the BOT was complicit.
 
You and I have been on the same page with just about everything about this situation, and I hear what you are saying here too. My only issue is that a signed witness statement by an employee to management is a bit of an odd concept to me. I spent a couple decades in the C-suite of an S&P 500 company and never heard of something like that. Perhaps it happens all the time. If I were in the role of management, I can’t imagine a scenario where I felt the need to have my employee sign a witness statement that he didn’t see a child being sexually abused to cover my ass, and not just taking the next step and letting the experts/authorities investigate it.

The fact that they didn’t either document the report or report it to authorities is why I don’t think CSS had any belief at all that sexual abuse was being reported after talking to McQueary and Sandusky.
Full disclosure: Mostly agree, and with regard to the little on which I may disagree, I cannot rule out hindsight bias. That said, I’ve conducted my fair share of investigations. And even for relatively mundane situations, I have the interviewee review and sign the meeting notes to demonstrate authenticity. So I may be a little biased about how this should have gone down (but that’s how it should have gone down).
 
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Jerry was not employed by the university. He was employed by TSM. If anybody was required to document the incident, it was JR, who also happened to be a mandatory reporter.

To me, one of the most glaring red flags in this entire saga is that Jack Raykovitz was not charged with anything.
Agree that JR and TSM should have been investigated and charged. That doesn't let PSU administrators off the hook for failing to document MM's report.
 
Jerry was not employed by the university. He was employed by TSM. If anybody was required to document the incident, it was JR, who also happened to be a mandatory reporter.

To me, one of the most glaring red flags in this entire saga is that Jack Raykovitz was not charged with anything.
No wonder because his wife called the shots.
  • Raykovitz's wife, Katherine Genovese, was The Second Mile's vice president. She was laid off just after Sandusky's arrest as contributions to the charity dried up. According to Ganim, Raykovitz and Genovese have testified before the grand jury.

    Raykovitz's successor, David Woodle, abandoned that internal inquiry a month later so the foundation could plot its future instead, specifically by trying to transfer its assets to a charity based in Texas. That plan has since been postponed pending lawsuits against The Second Mile.

    Here's Ganim on how Raykovitz learned from Penn State athletic director Tim Curley about the 2001 incident in which a witness observed Sandusky in a shower on PSU's campus with a boy:

    According to the grand jury presentment, Curley told Raykovitz only that someone had witnessed something inappropriate, it was investigated and the result was to tell Sandusky not to shower on campus with kids.

    Raykovitz in turn told a few members of his staff and the board's executive members what Curley had told him.

    Bruce Heim was one of them.

    [...]

    Heim asked Raykovitz if anything inappropriate happened between the boy and Sandusky, and Raykovitz answered, "No."

    That's what Raykovitz believed, based on what Curley had told him.

    "They looked into it," Raykovitz told Heim, according to Heim's memory. "And nothing inappropriate happened."

    Raykovitz then asked Heim—a local real estate investor and someone who isn't shy about his loyalty to Penn State, the Paterno family and many of the key players in this scandal—if he should relay this to the full board.

    "And I said no," Heim said.

    "For five years, I worked out at the football facility, several times a week, and saw Jerry showering with children," he said. "I said I don't think it's relevant. It happens every day at the YMCA. I remember the conversation specifically because it seemed like a nonstarter because of what Penn State said went on."

    On that advice, Raykovitz didn't tell the board. He did have a talk with Sandusky, and told him to be more careful.

    He told him to be more careful. Jack Raykovitz is a licensed psychologist.

    According to Ganim, The Second Mile took no action against Sandusky until November 2008, when a 15-year-old boy in Clinton County accused him of inappropriate touching. That boy is now known as Victim 1, and his complaint triggered the investigations that led to all the others. Raykovitz removed Sandusky from the charity's programs and urged him to stay away from children even beyond his work with the charity. By November 2009, Sandusky met with The Second Mile's board of directors to tell them he was resigning. Publicly, the spin would be that he wanted to spend more time with his family. But at that meeting, Sandusky told the board he was stepping aside because he was under investigation for molesting a child. Ganim reports that there was disagreement among individual board members about whether to stay silent. But that's ultimately what they decided to do.

    In January 2011, the Second Mile's development director, Bonnie Marshall, was served with a subpoena while Raykovitz and Genovese were on vacation. Here's Ganim:

    By then, it had been 18 months since board members were told about the investigation, and some of them were getting antsy. Many were hearing rumors that the investigation was expanding—it was—and that The Second Mile was under scrutiny.

    But few answers were coming from Raykovitz, said two of them, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

    [...]

    Considering that Marshall was out every day asking people to write checks to the charity, "I'm feeling more and more that, yes, I was deliberately kept out of things I should have known about and that my staff should have known about," she said. "We were brought in much later than what would have been above board."


Ganim's report says Raykovitz and Genovese were aware that the grand jury was looking into allegations back before Victim 1's, but that this was "unbeknownst to the full board." To date, no one other than Curley and Schultz, the two Penn State administrators, has been charged with a crime in connection with the Sandusky case.
 
Full disclosure: Mostly agree, and with regard to the little on which I may disagree, I cannot rule out hindsight bias. That said, I’ve conducted my fair share of investigations. And even for relatively mundane situations, I have the interviewee review and sign the meeting notes to demonstrate authenticity. So I may be a little biased about how this should have gone down (but that’s how it should have gone down).
Gotcha. If you would have found yourself in this bizarre situation, it would have seemed weird for you to not document the meeting in the same manner as you always do. That makes sense. Incidentally, the company I worked for had some of the best law firms in the land advise us to avoid taking meeting notes if possible and if we did to destroy them in relatively short order as part of a rigorous document retention policy. I guess everybody does things differently.

In Curley and Schultz’s situation, it would have seemed weird for them to document the meeting with a signed statement from the employee if that’s not how they generally did things. Straying from their normal process, especially on a subject as sensitive as CSA, would likely have seemed to indicate concern and a need to cover themselves. Which is why I say at that point I would have taken the extra step and just reported it. Having said that, I have no idea what their normal process was.

Schultz apparently was a cryptic note taker. I always felt that the fact he kept a file on that incident and didn’t care enough to destroy it along the way or at least take it with him when he retired was another indication that he didn’t believe the McQueary report amounted to anything. At the time nobody seemed to think that it did.
 
Agree that JR and TSM should have been investigated and charged. That doesn't let PSU administrators off the hook for failing to document MM's report.

This was a manufactured case. Without the anal intercourse nonsense, there would have been no basis for charges against C/S. They managed Sandusky's access to the PSU facilities, which was their responsibility. However, once Curley passed on what was reported to him to Raykovitz, PSU's involvement was over. Schultz said he believed a report to CYS was made.

I'm not saying there was no CYA reason to document the meeting with MM. What I am saying is that this was a non event that was blown out of proportion, with malice aforethought. Corbett made PSU the center of all this intentionally. IMO, this is the far bigger picture.
 
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This was a manufactured case. Without the anal intercourse nonsense, there would have been no basis for charges against C/S. They managed Sandusky's access to the PSU facilities, which was their responsibility. However, once Curley passed on what was reported to him to Raykovitz, PSU's involvement was over. Schultz said he believed a report to CYS was made.

I'm not saying there was no CYA reason to document the meeting with MM. What I am saying is that this was a non event that was blown out of proportion, with malice aforethought. Corbett made PSU the center of all this intentionally. IMO, this is the far bigger picture.
Maybe so but MM's report still should have been documented.
 
Jerry was not employed by the university. He was employed by TSM. If anybody was required to document the incident, it was JR, who also happened to be a mandatory reporter.

To me, one of the most glaring red flags in this entire saga is that Jack Raykovitz was not charged with anything.

Jerry wasn't employed by PSU and those MM contacted weren't "mandatory" reporters so in your opinion they had no reason to document the incident nor contact the proper authorities. That short sighted, lack of common sense thinking is what caused a scandal for the university and ruined reputations.
 
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Corbett made PSU the center of all this intentionally.
This. To keep attention away from the failures of CYS. THEY ALLOWED HIM TO ADOPT CHILDREN AND PLACE CHILDREN IN HIS CARE!!! They were unknowingly placing hundreds of children in the hands of a monster. And Corbett was taking campaign contributions from his organization. Talk about shifting blame away from your doorstep.
 
Jerry wasn't employed by PSU and those MM contacted weren't "mandatory" reporters so in your opinion they had no reason to document the incident nor contact the proper authorities. That short sighted, lack of common sense thinking is what caused a scandal for the university and ruined reputations.

“They” includes McQueary, his dad, Dr. Dranov, Curley, Schultz, Spanier, Joe Paterno, Raykovitz, Townie (by his own admission), likely Sue Paterno, likely Mrs. McQueary and likely others. Just try to imagine someone with more than half a brain (not you I realize, but go ahead and give it a shot anyway) struggling to believe that McQueary told all of those people that he witnessed a child being ass raped and NONE of them felt compelled to report it to CYS or the police or insist that he did.
 
Considering that what was reported in 2000/2001/2002 remains very much in dispute to this day and in all likelihood shall remain so in perpetuity? I absolutely and unequivocally believe it would have changed everything.

It’s just another thing in a long list of things that would not have changed a thing. The fix was simply in. NOTHING would have changed that.
 
Professor Crews's essay is indeed fascinating. I would encourage everyone who is interested in developing an informed opinion of whether or not the OAG fed the public false narratives to read the essay. The following excerpt is Crews's response to the I believe the accusers who testified at trial, they couldn't all be lying. Crews concluded that they are all not credible!
---------------

“I grant you all this,” some readers will say, “but what about the eight accusers who swore that Sandusky had molested them on multiple occasions? Their testimony, after all, is what put him in prison, and no amount of horseplay in the shower can gainsay it.”

Agreed. But that testimony would have looked unbelievable without the poison cloud of revulsion that enveloped it. Not one of Sandusky’s accusers, to begin with, had ever told anyone about misconduct on his part. More tellingly, most of them had remained on cordial terms with him, and some had even volunteered expressions of gratitude for his help in steering them away from trouble. They could hardly have said that about their serial rapist. And even after alleging subjection to brutal assaults, no former Second Miler could bring himself to claim that Sandusky’s many exhortations to clean living had been hypocritical. It was as if, absurdly, the young men needed to charge him with awful crimes but persisted even now in remembering him as their kindly protector.

The testimony that sealed Sandusky’s fate had been carefully shaped by attorneys who wished to remove anomalies and contradictions from their clients’ initial reports. Courtroom embarrassment was further minimized by having each young man concisely assent to propositions that would be read aloud to him. Even so, jurors who hadn’t already made up their minds (but there weren’t any!) would have been taken aback by stark implausibilities among the charges.

One accuser, Aaron Fisher, affirmed the claim that Sandusky had forced oral copulation on him more than twenty-five times. Another, Brett Houtz, attested to over forty violent assaults, occurring two or three times weekly. A third, Sabastian Paden, was supposedly molested in Sandusky’s home about 150 times. On one occasion Sandusky was said to have locked Paden in the basement for three days, starving him and raping him anally and orally while Dottie Sandusky, one floor above, ignored his screams. But all of those contentions were ludicrous on their face. What could have motivated rape victims to keep rejoining their tormentor and undergoing more of the same?

Even the most gullible jurors, one might think, would have wanted to know why several hostile witnesses had at first denied that Sandusky had done anything improper with them. Shouldn’t the timely denials, proffered without external pressure, count more heavily than later avowals scripted for judicial victory? To this objection, however, the prosecutors and their witnesses had a ready answer. The boys, it was said, had repressed their memories of abuse, and just recently they had retrieved those same memories.

It is this aspect of the case that drew the interest of the psychologists Elizabeth Loftus and Richard Leo, who understand that the theory of repression lacks any scientific credit. To them, belated “recollections” such as Sabastian Paden’s tale of a three-day sadistic kidnapping bore every mark of the dreamlike pseudomemories typically conjured by patients of recovered memory therapists. Paden may simply have been lying, of course. But the authorities who targeted Sandusky were indeed working in tandem with memory enhancers. One of them subjected his patient, Aaron Fisher, to months of daily brainwashing until Fisher more or less “recalled,” or pretended to recall, scenes of violation. “It wasn’t until I was fifteen and started seeing [therapist] Mike [Gillum],” wrote Fisher, “that I realized the horror.”

Other memories were refreshed as it became apparent that any new claims against Sandusky were likely to be believed. “I tried to block this out of my brain for years,” one turncoat declared. Another reflected, “That doorway that I had closed has since been reopening more.” A third stated, ”I have spent, you know, so many years burying this in the back of my head forever.” And after Sandusky was remanded to prison, Pennsylvania’s attorney general at the time, Linda Kelly, congratulated the ex-Second Milers for having dredged their damning scenes from the unconscious. “It was incredibly difficult,” she pronounced, “for some of them to unearth long-buried memories of the abuse they suffered at the hands of this defendant.”

The one major question that remains is what induced beneficiaries of Sandusky’s kindness to betray him so cruelly. Ziegler and Pendergrast know the answer — but so does Gladwell. “According to Ziegler’s reporting,” he remarks in the middle of a long endnote, where it will escape most readers’ attention, “at least some of Sandusky’s victims are not credible. They appear to have been attracted by the large cash settlements that Penn State was offering and the relatively lax criteria the university used for deciding who would get paid.”

“Some of Sandusky’s victims”? No, all of them. In a paroxysm of needless remorse,the Penn State trustees had broadcast the availability of a vast compensation fund that would eventually approach $140 million. An incentive was thus created for any young man who had once been helped by Sandusky, and even for some who had never met him, to spin a preposterous yarn and become an overnight multi-millionaire. And that is exactly what happened — for example, with the lawyered-up shower boy, Allan Myers. At last count, some thirty-five applicants, feigning PTSD at Sandusky’s hands, had availed themselves of Penn State’s princely largesse.

Ironically, the hounding of Jerry Sandusky could have perfectly illustrated the second half of Gladwell’s argument: once someone has been demonized, his whole record will be held against him. Sandusky had titled his autobiography Touched — surely a mark of pedophilia. What devilish impudence he had shown, furthermore, in publishing photographs of himself surrounded by happy eleven-year-olds! All of his assistance to at-risk children, such as adopting six of them (of both sexes) and raising them to be studious, self-disciplined, and drug free, was now reconfigured as grooming.

I thought replying to your own posts was against the rules.
 
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Having his statement in writing changes everything. The only way the press could suggest his statement was coerced (as someone suggest above) is if McQueary makes that claim himself. Having it in writing cements exactly what he told them (was it horseplay, was it sexual?) and pretty much slams the door on the conspiracy theory.

I just don't see the logic.

Was it nothing? Probably not, documenting nothing makes no sense, going to some executives in your organization for nothing makes no sense. "so you want to sign this blank sheet of paper for us?"

Was it sexual? Probably not. It makes no sense for him to report a crime to PSU that he saw, did not intervene, and did not call the police about. He wouldn't want that documented, and PSU likely would have immediately called the police.

Was it something in the middle (i.e. horseplay)? Almost certainly. PSU documents that he communicated horseplay, which changes nothing because it's exactly what everyone involved already says happened. That's not even considering any shenanigans by the OAG. One of many possible examples, OAG says Mike's signature was coerced, he emails them to say it's not true, they tell him he can't say that... no that would NEVER happen!
 
Jerry wasn't employed by PSU and those MM contacted weren't "mandatory" reporters so in your opinion they had no reason to document the incident nor contact the proper authorities. That short sighted, lack of common sense thinking is what caused a scandal for the university and ruined reputations.
As soon as someone attempts to progress this discussion in the direction of Tom Corbett, look who shows up!

Based on what they were told, there was nothing to report.
 
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“They” includes McQueary, his dad, Dr. Dranov, Curley, Schultz, Spanier, Joe Paterno, Raykovitz, Townie (by his own admission), likely Sue Paterno, likely Mrs. McQueary and likely others. Just try to imagine someone with more than half a brain (not you I realize, but go ahead and give it a shot anyway) struggling to believe that McQueary told all of those people that he witnessed a child being ass raped and NONE of them felt compelled to report it to CYS or the police or insist that he did.

It is obvious you do have half of a brain. The half that lacks common sense. Paterno admitted MM told him something of a "sexual nature" happened. Paterno admitted he "should have done more.". Jerry is in jail because he preyed on young boys but you choose to believe he and a young boy were naked, late at night in what he thought was an empty building and nothing happened. You and your band of idiots should be ashamed to be so stupid and a stain on PSU.
 
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It is obvious you do have half of a brain. The half that lacks common sense. Paterno admitted MM told him something of a "sexual nature" happened. Paterno admitted he "should have done more.". Jerry is in jail because he preyed on young boys but you choose to believe he and a young boy were naked, late at night in what he thought was an empty building and nothing happened. You and your band of idiots should be ashamed to be so stupid and a stain on PSU.

Cut the crap with re-wording Joes statements - just STOP !
 
...Paterno admitted he "should have done more."......

JVP said, "With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." I'm not telling you anything here you don't know. However, contextually, it's important to note that Joe said that while under the impression that what was in the GJ presentment was true.

Misquoting Joe is a dead giveaway. I'm surprised you thought you could get away with it.
 
It is obvious you do have half of a brain. The half that lacks common sense. Paterno admitted MM told him something of a "sexual nature" happened. Paterno admitted he "should have done more.". Jerry is in jail because he preyed on young boys but you choose to believe he and a young boy were naked, late at night in what he thought was an empty building and nothing happened. You and your band of idiots should be ashamed to be so stupid and a stain on PSU.
Besides the fact that your 3rd and 4th sentences are total misquoted bullshit....in your world of common sense, all of those people were told a child was sexually abused and not one of them reported it to the appropriate authorities or insisted that the witness report it. Not. One. You take stupid to another level and make it look easy.
 
JVP said, "With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." I'm not telling you anything here you don't know. However, contextually, it's important to note that Joe said that while under the impression that what was in the GJ presentment was true.

Misquoting Joe is a dead giveaway. I'm surprised you thought you could get away with it.

The next time you
Cut the crap with re-wording Joes statements - just STOP !

Moron
 
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Besides the fact that your 3rd and 4th sentences are total misquoted bullshit....in your world of common sense, all of those people were told a child was sexually abused and not one of them reported it to the appropriate authorities or insisted that the witness report it. Not. One. You take stupid to another level and make it look easy.

The next time Indy and Francofan go to the prison to hold Jerry's hand and listen to his sad story, you should go with them. You are just as gullible.
 
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The next time Indy and Francofan go to the prison to hold Jerry's hand and listen to his sad story, you should go with them. You are just as gullible.
You change the subject and resort to non-responsive BS like that when you have no answer. Typical for a dummy like you. You lose.
 
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Denial is a powerful defense mechanism. There is a mountain of evidence that Sandusky was a serial pedophile. He also fit the psychological profile to a tee. Posters that defend this low life are an embarrassment to Penn State.
 
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Denial is a powerful defense mechanism. There is a mountain of evidence that Sandusky was a serial pedophile. He also fit the psychological profile to a tee. Posters that defend this low life are an embarrassment to Penn State.

i respectfully disagree. I believe that there is very little actual evidence that Sandusky is a serial pedophile. Please share the mountain of evidence that you refer to.

I believe that there is a lot of evidence that Sandusky was railroaded and not guilty of the crimes he was convicted of. I would urge you to do some in-depth research in the case. Please read Mark Pendergrast’s critically acclaimed book “The Most Hated Man in America,” John Snedden’s redacted report on his federal investigation he did to renew Graham Spanier’s high level security clearances, Ralph Cipriano’s big trial blog posts on the scandal, Malcolm Gladwell’s Penn State chapter in his new book “Talking to Strangers,” Professor Frederick Crews’s reviews of Pendergrast’s and Gladwell’s book, and John Ziegler’s framingpaterno web pages.

it seems like you have bought into the office of attorney general’s false narratives in the case. If it was such a slam dunk case, why did they have to resort to a knowingly false grand jury presentment, leaking grand jury testimony, suggestive questioning of accusers and then lying about it, and compelling defense attorneys to testify against their clients. Sandusky’s trial was patently unfair. If Sandusky is fortunate enough to win a new trial, I believe a new fair trial will end up with much different results.
 
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Denial is a powerful defense mechanism. There is a mountain of evidence that Sandusky was a serial pedophile. He also fit the psychological profile to a tee. Posters that defend this low life are an embarrassment to Penn State.
Odd time to make that post. If it is in response to my post, you are seriously struggling to follow the discussion.
 
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