This man says there is reason to be encouraged by the Pirates recent trades!
- Thread starter TheGLOV
- Start date
A few of his contentions are idiotic.....but the basic point - that the trades were not as awful as some are making them out to be, is valid.
The idea of extending McCutchen is just stupid.
His defense has fallen from below-average to absolutely awful
His base running makes one pine for the days of Al Martin (longer-term Buccos fans will recognize that that is not a compliment
)Even if his work at the plate returns to the norm, the idea of spending $20 MM+ per year on him from age 32+ is ridiculous.
However, he is right that the Buccos basically gave up very little of value in the trades.
Could they have gotten more in return? Maybe.....but I am not so sure about even that.
Melancon: I like him a lot. But they only "lost" two months of him. Cest la vie.
McGuire: I do like him as a prospect, but even at that I would have to recognize that he is no sure thing. He is the only guy that I think they might possibly regret losing.
In exchange, as far as any potential value:
They got a possible high-end closer/set-up guy (Rivero) who is under control for 5 years. No sure thing, but could be worth a lot
They got a two month rental as a starting pitcher (Nova) who - for this club - may be worth a lot more than losing Melancon over that same time frame.
And they got rid of $15 million or so off of the 2017 payroll with Liriano. I really like Liriano when he is on - wicked stuff - but his performance this year dropped him into the category of "a guy you would be more than happy to trade for nothing, so long as the other club assumed all of his salary".
And added a couple of "possibles" in Hutchinson (who has several years of control - if he pans out.....which is a big if) and the young kid who throws 100+.
Long term the Buccos future was - and remains - tied to the ability to acclimate the young SPs into the rotation.
Taillon is there. He has shown already that - barring injury - he will be a quality SP over the long term
Kuhl - I believe - is the next guy in line to get his shot. I expect he will join the rotation this week (taking Locke's spot), and if he does OK, he will remain up through the rest of the season
Glasnow should be ready to join the rotation permanently sometime in 2017.
Brault, who may not have Glasnow's ceiling, should also be ready sometime in 2017
Kingham is just now working his way back up to AAA in his rehab starts coming off of his Tommy John....and should also be ready sometime in 2017.
We could very well see Cole, Taillon, and "three of the others" as the starting 5 NLT next summer.....and that could make for a very solid rotation. And, just as importantly, a solid 5 man starting staff that will be dirt cheap (by MLB standards) and controllable for years to come.
If you have that as a core - along with a starting 8:
OF: Marte / Polanco / McCutchen, then Meadows in 2017/18
IF: Kang / Mercer, then Newman in 2017/18 / Harrison-Frazier / Bell
C: Cervelli
with guys like Diaz (C), Tucker (SS), Hinz (SP), Keller (SP), Hayes (3B), Williams (SP) etc waiting in the wings
that are all under control for several years and that provide a nice blend of "young veterans", and "improving youngsters"......what a nice "problem" to have
I guess we should be also be happy that the Succos saved money by not trying to sign JA Happ at the end of last year. After all he is only 15 -3 this season with Toronto.
Who would want that kind of payroll obligation on the books ?
We should all take comfort that the saved money was used to sign nobody in the off season
Who would want that kind of payroll obligation on the books ?
We should all take comfort that the saved money was used to sign nobody in the off season
Great summary Stink. People act as though Huntington declined better offers when making these trades. I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt relating taking the best offer(s) put forth. Of course, there is a lot of black magic in projecting prospects into the future.A few of his contentions are idiotic.....but the basic point - that the trades were not as awful as some are making them out to be, is valid.
The idea of extending McCutchen is just stupid.
His defense has fallen from below-average to absolutely awful
His base running makes one pine for the days of Al Martin (longer-term Buccos fans will recognize that that is not a compliment
Even if his work at the plate returns to the norm, the idea of spending $20 MM+ per year on him from age 32+ is ridiculous.
However, he is right that the Buccos basically gave up very little of value in the trades.
Could they have gotten more in return? Maybe.....but I am not so sure about even that.
Melancon: I like him a lot. But they only "lost" two months of him. Cest la vie.
McGuire: I do like him as a prospect, but even at that I would have to recognize that he is no sure thing. He is the only guy that I think they might possibly regret losing.
In exchange, as far as any potential value:
They got a possible high-end closer/set-up guy (Rivero) who is under control for 5 years. No sure thing, but could be worth a lot
They got a two month rental as a starting pitcher (Nova) who - for this club - may be worth a lot more than losing Melancon over that same time frame.
And they got rid of $15 million or so off of the 2017 payroll with Liriano. I really like Liriano when he is on - wicked stuff - but his performance this year dropped him into the category of "a guy you would be more than happy to trade for nothing, so long as the other club assumed all of his salary".
And added a couple of "possibles" in Hutchinson (who has several years of control - if he pans out.....which is a big if) and the young kid who throws 100+.
Long term the Buccos future was - and remains - tied to the ability to acclimate the young SPs into the rotation.
Taillon is there. He has shown already that - barring injury - he will be a quality SP over the long term
Kuhl - I believe - is the next guy in line to get his shot. I expect he will join the rotation this week (taking Locke's spot), and if he does OK, he will remain up through the rest of the season
Glasnow should be ready to join the rotation permanently sometime in 2017.
Brault, who may not have Glasnow's ceiling, should also be ready sometime in 2017
Kingham is just now working his way back up to AAA in his rehab starts coming off of his Tommy John....and should also be ready sometime in 2017.
We could very well see Cole, Taillon, and "three of the others" as the starting 5 NLT next summer.....and that could make for a very solid rotation. And, just as importantly, a solid 5 man starting staff that will be dirt cheap (by MLB standards) and controllable for years to come.
If you have that as a core - along with a starting 8:
OF: Marte / Polanco / McCutchen, then Meadows in 2017/18
IF: Kang / Mercer, then Newman in 2017/18 / Harrison-Frazier / Bell
C: Cervelli
with guys like Diaz (C), Tucker (SS), Hinz (SP), Keller (SP), Hayes (3B), Williams (SP) etc waiting in the wings
that are all under control for several years and that provide a nice blend of "young veterans", and "improving youngsters"......what a nice "problem" to have
I look forward to your break downs of the Nitt's performance on the gridiron in just a few short weeks.
Do you still wish they had signed Russ Martin?
Paying out an additional $15 million per year in a long-term deal - for performance less than what they are getting now, at 1/4 the cost?
And being on the hook for another $60 million....yes, that is $60,000,000.... down the road for a 34/35/36 year old catcher?
LOL
Why were they so damn cheap? Why didn't they package up some prospects and get one of the Upton Boys, or Carlos Gomez, or Cespedes or Kemp? Damn them clutching onto their precious "prospects"!! Cheap bastards!!!
Of course either of the "prospects" they would have had to deal (along with additional guys) to land any of those great players.......have WARs higher than the whole group of those "stars" - - - - combined
LOL
Now, as far as Hap is concerned:
It also takes two to tango....they couldn't just throw Happ a decent deal and and pen.
I expect they tried, and offered Happ a reasonable deal.....but there were 31 other clubs in the same market....and - AMAZINGLY - he chose one of the other 31. SHOCKING!!! How could those cheap bastards let that happen!!!!????
Not to mention - - to even get into the bidding, would have required not only allocating big $$$ this year, but also for at least a couple more years down the road, $25 Mill for his age 34 and 35 seasons (during which time, it is very likely that Happ would have been no better than a depth option on the Pirate staff).
Oh....and Happ - who IS most certainly having a real nice year, but not 15-3 nice - is getting 6.4 runs per game from his offense.....which is higher than any other pitcher in the entire American League.
Kinda' lends a significant bit to the 15-3 mark
How many clubs right now are saying:
"Jeezus, we need some hitting - and the damn Pirates signed not one, not two, but THREE guys who are all knocking the shit out of the ball - - - and they signed them as BENCH guys, and it didn't cost them squat. And we could have signed anyone of them - easy - and cheaply - and with no long term commitment. WHAT WERE WE THINKING!!!"
Same way that its kinda' easy to make a killing at the bookie joint.......if you can place your bets on Monday, for games played the previous Sunday.
With a setup like that.....even 21 could probably break even!
(JK....but he probably wouldn't lose too much)BRILLIANT!!
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Nice synopsis. It amazes me when people think when you unload a starting pitcher that has been awful, with a huge salary hung on his back, that you should just get a lot in return. Why, just because he's a major leager? Some people, just don't get it. Out with the bad, and bring up the new, that's what Pirates got to do, keep trying to improve the team! Hated to see Melancon trade, but then again I felt same way when they got rid of Grilli, and Melancon came in and made us forget all about him. We'll see if Watson can do the same, at least we know he's solid.A few of his contentions are idiotic.....but the basic point - that the trades were not as awful as some are making them out to be, is valid.
The idea of extending McCutchen is just stupid.
His defense has fallen from below-average to absolutely awful
His base running makes one pine for the days of Al Martin (longer-term Buccos fans will recognize that that is not a compliment
Even if his work at the plate returns to the norm, the idea of spending $20 MM+ per year on him from age 32+ is ridiculous.
However, he is right that the Buccos basically gave up very little of value in the trades.
Could they have gotten more in return? Maybe.....but I am not so sure about even that.
Melancon: I like him a lot. But they only "lost" two months of him. Cest la vie.
McGuire: I do like him as a prospect, but even at that I would have to recognize that he is no sure thing. He is the only guy that I think they might possibly regret losing.
In exchange, as far as any potential value:
They got a possible high-end closer/set-up guy (Rivero) who is under control for 5 years. No sure thing, but could be worth a lot
They got a two month rental as a starting pitcher (Nova) who - for this club - may be worth a lot more than losing Melancon over that same time frame.
And they got rid of $15 million or so off of the 2017 payroll with Liriano. I really like Liriano when he is on - wicked stuff - but his performance this year dropped him into the category of "a guy you would be more than happy to trade for nothing, so long as the other club assumed all of his salary".
And added a couple of "possibles" in Hutchinson (who has several years of control - if he pans out.....which is a big if) and the young kid who throws 100+.
Long term the Buccos future was - and remains - tied to the ability to acclimate the young SPs into the rotation.
Taillon is there. He has shown already that - barring injury - he will be a quality SP over the long term
Kuhl - I believe - is the next guy in line to get his shot. I expect he will join the rotation this week (taking Locke's spot), and if he does OK, he will remain up through the rest of the season
Glasnow should be ready to join the rotation permanently sometime in 2017.
Brault, who may not have Glasnow's ceiling, should also be ready sometime in 2017
Kingham is just now working his way back up to AAA in his rehab starts coming off of his Tommy John....and should also be ready sometime in 2017.
We could very well see Cole, Taillon, and "three of the others" as the starting 5 NLT next summer.....and that could make for a very solid rotation. And, just as importantly, a solid 5 man starting staff that will be dirt cheap (by MLB standards) and controllable for years to come.
If you have that as a core - along with a starting 8:
OF: Marte / Polanco / McCutchen, then Meadows in 2017/18
IF: Kang / Mercer, then Newman in 2017/18 / Harrison-Frazier / Bell
C: Cervelli
with guys like Diaz (C), Tucker (SS), Hinz (SP), Keller (SP), Hayes (3B), Williams (SP) etc waiting in the wings
that are all under control for several years and that provide a nice blend of "young veterans", and "improving youngsters"......what a nice "problem" to have
I keep saying, if 3 players on the team, McCutchen, Luriano, Neise, would have had decent years, or at least above average, that's probably at least an 8 game swing right there in the win column, and we'd be in the thick of things. You could say, at least 2 of the 3, let the team down.
BTW, Toronto sure seems to have a fad for Bucco Players. Batista, Martin, Happ, and now Luriano.
Being a Nats fan, I was not familiar with Melancon's stuff. Then I watched him dismantle the Giants yesterday in a classic 1-0 pitchers dual between potential play-off teams. I must say his stuff is electric. If the Nats have him only for the remainder of the season, the trade will probably be worth it for them. If Sunday's performance is indicative of another 2-4 years, I expect the Nats to give him a good contact offer.
Melancon is outstanding - IMO
Top feature is that he can follow the glove around the strike zone with more accuracy than just about anyone in baseball.
Only tops out at about 92-93, but his FB has a nice little wrinkle at the end and you almost never see a hitter get the fat part of the bat on the ball - - - he rarely places it anywhere but on the corners of the zone (and almost never walks anyone).
His curveball is a real nice compliment pitch, and he can hit spots with it as well.
He's probably got 3-4 good years left in him....but someone is going to offer him $$$$ that only the richest teams are going to be able to afford for a closer.
No way the Buccos could have afforded him down the road (even the 9-10 million or whatever he was making this year was a stretch)
I loved the Melancon trade. What good is a closer if your starters cant go 5 innings? Especially one who wants 10+ million over 3-4 years after this one? You got two young, good arms for him. Liriano was strictly salary dump and in order to not have to pay any of it they had to give up prospects. McGuire is a great catch and throw guy but hasnt hit yet and is behind Diaz. Ramirez is a singles hitter who is behind Meadows (and Frazier depending on where he ends up) and you could basically say he was traded for Hutchinson.
With their play over the past week, I would think Joyce and Freese could be August deals unless the Bucs run of 5 or 6 in a row.
With their play over the past week, I would think Joyce and Freese could be August deals unless the Bucs run of 5 or 6 in a row.
Do you still wish they had signed Russ Martin?
Paying out an additional $15 million per year in a long-term deal - for performance less than what they are getting now, at 1/4 the cost?
And being on the hook for another $60 million....yes, that is $60,000,000.... down the road for a 34/35/36 year old catcher?
LOL
Why were they so damn cheap? Why didn't they package up some prospects and get one of the Upton Boys, or Carlos Gomez, or Cespedes or Kemp? Damn them clutching onto their precious "prospects"!! Cheap bastards!!!
Of course either of the "prospects" they would have had to deal (along with additional guys) to land any of those great players.......have WARs higher than the whole group of those "stars" - - - - combined
LOL
Now, as far as Hap is concerned:
It also takes two to tango....they couldn't just throw Happ a decent deal and and pen.
I expect they tried, and offered Happ a reasonable deal.....but there were 31 other clubs in the same market....and - AMAZINGLY - he chose one of the other 31. SHOCKING!!! How could those cheap bastards let that happen!!!!????
Not to mention - - to even get into the bidding, would have required not only allocating big $$$ this year, but also for at least a couple more years down the road, $25 Mill for his age 34 and 35 seasons (during which time, it is very likely that Happ would have been no better than a depth option on the Pirate staff).
Oh....and Happ - who IS most certainly having a real nice year, but not 15-3 nice - is getting 6.4 runs per game from his offense.....which is higher than any other pitcher in the entire American League.
Kinda' lends a significant bit to the 15-3 mark
How many clubs right now are saying:
"Jeezus, we need some hitting - and the damn Pirates signed not one, not two, but THREE guys who are all knocking the shit out of the ball - - - and they signed them as BENCH guys, and it didn't cost them squat. And we could have signed anyone of them - easy - and cheaply - and with no long term commitment. WHAT WERE WE THINKING!!!"
Same way that its kinda' easy to make a killing at the bookie joint.......if you can place your bets on Monday, for games played the previous Sunday.
With a setup like that.....even 21 could probably break even!
BRILLIANT!!
I wish there were something stronger than "like" I could click. Perfectly stated. If the Bucs did everything the "Nuttings-are-cheap!!!" wanted, the big league team would be loaded with aging has-been a that are being paid a fortune, and the minors would be empty. Oh, but we'd have 9-9 J.A. Happ, so yippee (before they ask, he'd only be a .500 pitcher with his current numbers given the garbage lineup he'd have behind them under their plan).
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