The Legacy of Joe Seay

[dropster45]

While it’s good for wrestling to acknowledge the great works of individuals, we also have a responsibility to remember those who, as outlined here, cheated repeatedly, lied about it to investigators...repeatedly, and were ultimately fired while the school endured penalties/sanctions. We remember so as not to repeat:
https://www.tulsaworld.com/archive/...cle_57b1adfa-e844-55e0-8fcd-8ba382ff7024.html

 

[ss7]

While it’s good for wrestling to acknowledge the great works of individuals, we also have a responsibility to remember those who, as outlined here, cheated repeatedly, lied about it to investigators...repeatedly, and were ultimately fired while the school endured penalties/sanctions. We remember so as not to repeat:
https://www.tulsaworld.com/archive/...cle_57b1adfa-e844-55e0-8fcd-8ba382ff7024.html

Yeah...

But we probably don't need to immediately go to this after learning he died.

 

[Dogwelder]

The article did not say what Seay actually did that was considered to be wrong. What bad writing! As of now, I don’t know what Seay did wrong, but I know what the writer did wrong.

Score: Seay zero, writer negative-one.

 

[dropster45]

The writer had it pretty spot on - see here how it panned out:
https://oklahoman.com/article/2411531/ncaa-takes-down-oklahoma-state-wrestling-program

 

[Dogwelder]

The writer had it pretty spot on - see here how it panned out:
https://oklahoman.com/article/2411531/ncaa-takes-down-oklahoma-state-wrestling-program

Thanks for the new link. From the new article:

“The NCAA said it found major violations involving the treatment of part-time students as fully enrolled student athletes; the payment of expenses for redshirt wrestlers to compete in open tourna-ments; the use of wrestlers in summer camps not eligible for employment, which it considered a recruiting inducement; poor accounting procedures at summer camps, which allowed some wrestlers to receive benefits to which they were not entitled; and supplementing coaches' salaries with funds not known to or under the control of OSU.”

My take: Minor technical infractions. Without reading a rule book, nothing in the list is inherently wrong on a gut level. Yawn. Molehill.

 

[Gray52]

While it’s good for wrestling to acknowledge the great works of individuals, we also have a responsibility to remember those who, as outlined here, cheated repeatedly, lied about it to investigators...repeatedly, and were ultimately fired while the school endured penalties/sanctions. We remember so as not to repeat:
https://www.tulsaworld.com/archive/...cle_57b1adfa-e844-55e0-8fcd-8ba382ff7024.html

Too soon? Yep.

 

[dropster45]

Thanks for the new link. From the new article:

“The NCAA said it found major violations involving the treatment of part-time students as fully enrolled student athletes; the payment of expenses for redshirt wrestlers to compete in open tourna-ments; the use of wrestlers in summer camps not eligible for employment, which it considered a recruiting inducement; poor accounting procedures at summer camps, which allowed some wrestlers to receive benefits to which they were not entitled; and supplementing coaches' salaries with funds not known to or under the control of OSU.”

My take: Minor technical infractions. Without reading a rule book, nothing in the list is inherently wrong on a gut level. Yawn. Molehill.

The NCAA called them MAJOR violations. And those are just the areas they could prove. Almost shut down the program...pretty major stuff Dog.

 

[Dogwelder]

The NCAA called them MAJOR violations. And those are just the areas they could prove. Almost shut down the program...pretty major stuff Dog.

The NCAA makes its rules and creates major consequences, so if they say it’s major, then I agree with you that it’s major, in the NCAA’s own limited jargon sense.

But the NCAA cannot change the meaning of words in everyday conversation.

When I hear about basketball or football violations with $100,000 payments and hookers and free SUVs and no-show jobs and phony classes and papers written by tutors, I instantly know those are illegal and immoral and actually MAJOR. In contrast, when I hear about Seay’s deeds, I have to consult a rule book to know whether there was a technical violation and even then I don’t see a significant impact or advantage.

In short, the NCAA can make like a tree and ...

 

[dropster45]

The NCAA may very well be imperfect, but that doesn’t condone disregarding the rules. We don’t get to pick thru the rules and decide which ones should apply to us. If we don’t like a particular rule, we need to go thru the proper channels to have it changed, not just do our own thing.
In the case where an individual is lying to investigators about what they did, and asking others to lie on their behalf, it becomes quite clear that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, yet did it anyway.
These are not representative of the values you want to teach the next generation. Doing so is a disservice to them as individuals, but moreover, to the sport of wrestling.

 

[Ja1339]

Thanks for the new link. From the new article:

“The NCAA said it found major violations involving the treatment of part-time students as fully enrolled student athletes; the payment of expenses for redshirt wrestlers to compete in open tourna-ments; the use of wrestlers in summer camps not eligible for employment, which it considered a recruiting inducement; poor accounting procedures at summer camps, which allowed some wrestlers to receive benefits to which they were not entitled; and supplementing coaches' salaries with funds not known to or under the control of OSU.”

My take: Minor technical infractions. Without reading a rule book, nothing in the list is inherently wrong on a gut level. Yawn. Molehill.

Was Vodka around back then?

 

[lookleft goright]

It sounds like Seay was doing everything that RTC's are doing. Back then it was illegal and now it is not, because of RTCs. If some people want to stomp on his grave, what can the rest of us do. He was a big influence in a lot of people's lives and we can choose to look at his strengths or his flaws. It is up to the individual.

 

[dropster45]

It sounds like Seay was doing everything that RTC's are doing. Back then it was illegal and now it is not, because of RTCs. If some people want to stomp on his grave, what can the rest of us do. He was a big influence in a lot of people's lives and we can choose to look at his strengths or his flaws. It is up to the individual.

It matters not what the rules are today, 50 years ago, or 50 years on. What matters is blatantly disregarding the rules of the day. It would be like skirting today’s rules with the clairvoyant hope that someday they become what we always wanted. Rather than rationalize behaviors tailored toward winning at all cost, better to learn from them so that they aren’t repeated in some other form in the future.

 

[slushhead]

It matters not what the rules are today, 50 years ago, or 50 years on. What matters is blatantly disregarding the rules of the day. Rather than rationalize behaviors tailored to win at all cost, let’s learn from them so that they aren’t repeated in some other form in the future.

Is the second half of LLGR's post lost on you? The guy just died, and you get to immediately proclaim that his legacy = cheater & liar?

You think dredging up some infractions from 27+ years ago will teach us wrestling fans that cheating and lying are bad? We already know that. If you're so concerned about learning from past mistakes so that they aren't repeated, shouldn't you be sending the article to all the NCAA wrestling coaches instead of to a PSU wrestling fan forum?

 

[dropster45]

Is the second half of LLGR's post lost on you? The guy just died, and you get to immediately proclaim that his legacy = cheater & liar?

You think dredging up some infractions from 27+ years ago will teach us wrestling fans that cheating and lying are bad? We already know that. If you're so concerned about learning from past mistakes so that they aren't repeated, shouldn't you be sending the article to all the NCAA wrestling coaches instead of to a PSU wrestling fan forum?

No, I don’t think everyone knows that - and by some of the responses, it’s actually quite clear. There’s never a bad time to discuss behaviors that put winning above the ethical responsibility to follow the rules, let alone what can be learned from it. These are the facts. If it makes you squirm a bit, it’s probably something that needs to be talked out.
There are a LOT of coaches on these forums from all levels, so yes many will see it. Unfortunately, sweeping it under the rug doesn’t make it go away - actually makes it reoccur.

 

[Dogwelder]

It sounds like Seay was doing everything that RTC's are doing. Back then it was illegal and now it is not, because of RTCs. If some people want to stomp on his grave, what can the rest of us do. He was a big influence in a lot of people's lives and we can choose to look at his strengths or his flaws. It is up to the individual.

Right on! A man I know had a funeral some time back. So MANY people attended. If the speakers had wanted to, they could have listed the man’s faults. Well, they actually did. But the faults were described as endearing. Then the speakers focused on his heart and his legacy as a leader of young men and as a leader of men.

 

[dropster45]

Right on! A man I know had a funeral some time back. So MANY people attended. If the speakers had wanted to, they could have listed the man’s faults. Well, they actually did. But the faults were described as endearing. Then they focused on his heart and his legacy as a leader of young men and as a leader of men.

I can dig that! As there are quite a few who are only handling the positives, I’m comfortable with the role of counterbalancing that with the rest of the story. It’s what it is - Reality.

 

[Gray52]

We all have had our share of questionable answers to investigators...
“Son, where did you get that beer?”
“Umm, I found it under a tree in Tidioute.”

 

[slushhead]

No, I don’t think everyone knows that - and by some of the responses, it’s actually quite clear. There’s never a bad time to discuss behaviors that put winning above the ethical responsibility to follow the rules, let alone what can be learned from it. These are the facts. If it makes you squirm a bit, it’s probably something that needs to be talked out.
There are a LOT of coaches on these forums from all levels, so yes many will see it. Unfortunately, sweeping it under the rug doesn’t make it go away - actually makes it reoccur.

The point people are making repeatedly is flying right over your head, apparently. So let me be even more blunt -- using the guy's very recent death as a prompt to dredge up bad stuff he did, and assume you can use it to define his legacy, is assy.

By the way, part of his legacy is that he was named a distinguished member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame . . . in 1998. Apparently, people didn't think his troubles in 1992 defined who he was.

 

[Dogwelder]

Old Joe Seay shuffles into a bar at sundown with his eyes low and his head down. The bartender says “Ay, Joe! whats the matter? You seem troubled.”

Joe responds with:

“You see this bar we're standing in? I built it with me own hands! but Dropster don't call me the bar builder, no!

And the bridge everyone uses to cross the river to get to the market, I built that that with me own hands too! but do Dropster call me the bridge builder? No, he do not.

And the wall that protects our city, I built that with me own hands too! And Dropster don't call me the wall builder neither.

BUT YOU BREAK ONE RULE!...”

 

[Gray52]

You almost had me... but we all know Brandon The Builder, first of first men, founder of House Stark, built the wall.

 

[dropster45]

Good story Dog. I was trying really hard not to read it, but was drawn like a mosquito to a zapper. Funny thing is, the zapper actually felt good for some reason. I will follow up with one point and that is it’s rarely ever just one thing - and that was a big part of the problem in this situation. People are forgiving and understand the one offs, 2 offs, 3 offs even. I hear you - everybody messes up at some time or another. This on the other hand went on for a good while, impacted lots of people, involved many facets, and became - dare I say - culturally interwoven into the program for a time. There IS a lesson in all this, and maybe just maybe, the man who was at the center of it would want people to know? Maybe he would like people to have learned from it? What say you?

 

[dropster45]

Old Joe Seay shuffles into a bar at sundown with his eyes low and his head down. The bartender says “Ay, Joe! whats the matter? You seem troubled.”

Joe responds with:

“You see this bar we're standing in? I built it with me own hands! but Dropster don't call me the bar builder, no!

And the bridge everyone uses to cross the river to get to the market, I built that that with me own hands too! but do Dropster call me the bridge builder? No, he do not.

And the wall that protects our city, I built that with me own hands too! And Dropster don't call me the wall builder neither.

BUT YOU BREAK ONE RULE!...”

The point people are making repeatedly is flying right over your head, apparently. So let me be even more blunt -- using the guy's very recent death as a prompt to dredge up bad stuff he did, and assume you can use it to define his legacy, is assy.

By the way, part of his legacy is that he was named a distinguished member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame . . . in 1998. Apparently, people didn't think his troubles in 1992 defined who he was.

That is amazing that someone can have their program sanctioned by the NCAA to the point of not being able to even compete, be fired from their job, and still make it into the Hall of Fame. I would venture to guess that’s the only example of that in the building.

 

[SetonHallPirate]

That is amazing that someone can have their program sanctioned by the NCAA to the point of not being able to even compete, be fired from their job, and still make it into the Hall of Fame. I would venture to guess that’s the only example of that in the building.

And, oh, by the way, the Hall of Fame is literally next door to the place all of that happened!

 

[nitlion6]

Good story Dog. I was trying really hard not to read it, but was drawn like a mosquito to a zapper. Funny thing is, the zapper actually felt good for some reason. I will follow up with one point and that is it’s rarely ever just one thing - and that was a big part of the problem in this situation. People are forgiving and understand the one offs, 2 offs, 3 offs even. I hear you - everybody messes up at some time or another. This on the other hand went on for a good while, impacted lots of people, involved many facets, and became - dare I say - culturally interwoven into the program for a time. There IS a lesson in all this, and maybe just maybe, the man who was at the center of it would want people to know? Maybe he would like people to have learned from it? What say you?

Gable was known to cheat. Just saying.

 

[Dogwelder]

Gable was known to cheat. Just saying.

Gable’s cheating was way worse than Seay’s (because extra scholarships are a huge advantage). I wonder whether Gable will ever enter any Halls of Fame.

 

[Gray52]

Gable was known to cheat. Just saying.

There’s a thread over on that other board comparing Cael and Gable... lots of “not even close” and Cael bashing... so I asked for some insight into the whole scholarship thing. Crickets. My question wasn’t even acknowledged.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

There’s a thread over on that other board comparing Cael and Gable... lots of “not even close” and Cael bashing... so I asked for some insight into the whole scholarship thing. Crickets. My question wasn’t even acknowledged.

Well, it's not close yet. Cael has A LOT of time to go in his coaching career. There's no point in comparing yet.

 

[nitlion6]

There’s a thread over on that other board comparing Cael and Gable... lots of “not even close” and Cael bashing... so I asked for some insight into the whole scholarship thing. Crickets. My question wasn’t even acknowledged.

I threw that fact in there also. Mine got a few rebuttals which is pretty good considering most of HR has me on ignore.

 

[Gray52]

Well, it's not close yet. Cael has A LOT of time to go in his coaching career. There's no point in comparing yet.

If you’re strictly comparing numbers on paper, I totally agree.
I really wanted to get their perspective of that whole deal, but the silence makes me think I understand that situation perfectly.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I threw that fact in there also. Mine got a few rebuttals which is pretty good considering most of HR has me on ignore.

For very solid reasons. You are a main motivator of the ‘here they come to defend the day’ posts. Glad that you wear that with a badge of honor. Keep up your solid work at bringing down a good fan base.

 

[nitlion6]

For very solid reasons. You are a main motivator of the ‘here they come to defend the day’ posts. Glad that you wear that with a badge of honor. Keep up your solid work at bringing down a good fan base.

Ah man, all I do is point out facts. If it causes most of the HR clowns to suffer butt hurt symptoms that's on them.