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Rumor vs Logic - MUCH Bigger things are afoot?

GogglesPaizano

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Feb 6, 2018
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Guys help me find the flaws in my thinking. My spider sense is telling me there is far more to this picture than meets the eye. The consensus now (including Flo and visual confirmation of his 'huge'ness) is Cassar is going Hwt. So the question is why?

1) Shak beat him out - yes, but I don't buy for a second, that last year translates unchallenged over to this year. I was in the camp that Cassar, one more year removed from a 2 year injury Rehab period, would have taken back the starting spot. No way he goes up for this reason alone. (Probability 15%)

2) The cut is too tough - maybe, he is a big dude, but I am not convinced a 230 lb Cassar is good enough to beat out a 2x AA 265 lb healthy Nick Nevills. Who jumps weight classes to reduce his chances at wrestling? (Probability 20%)

3) Nick Nevills is hurt or retiring - sounds more plausible but, by itself (Probability 30%) I think Cassar at 197 challenging Shak is still a much better scenario for him to place on the top 1/2 of the podium. Likewise this move simply preserves Seth's redshirt this year. Seth could have been ready to go, and as a true frosh with a better than even shot to low AA, and if Nick could heal and get a medical, Seth could RS next year as Nick comes back and goes for a final year. Net-net is even with Nick hurt, that alone isn't a compelling reason for Cassar to give up on a shot with destiny at 197.

4) Bo is moving up - I think there is little doubt Bo wins that wrestle off, but I am not convinced the cut was getting too tough for him and he is not one to run from Zahid, he would welcome that challenge if Z bumps. Even if Bo were to move up, Cassar could still serve as an awesome insurance policy in case of a god-forbid injury to Bo, where Shak is cemented to 184. (Probability 20%).

The Lions are a team, these kids love each other. The prospect of Bo bumping two AA capable guys doesn't resonate with me. It would take a combination of balls, arrogance and selfishness to do that in this case - that is not Bo Nickal the teammate.

On balance I am not convinced with any of these theories "alone" is even a 50% probability.

This tells me a combination if events is driving the scenario, and the effect on the team is broader than most are considering at this early date. So what cascading set of dominos is coming in to play here?

A) I think Nick may indeed be hurt. Hurt more seriously than we all believe. If he had a second surgery where the docs say instability prevents a 'full' competitive recovery, maybe he is hanging it up. If so he would have told Cael long ago. I can see where Cael knowing the cut was difficult saw Cassar's going up as the best 'Team' option, plus AC has a full 6 months lead time to pack on good (shirtless adonis calendar) weight as opposed to bad weight.

This still leaves the question of Seth, why not simply burn his shirt? Unfortunately, with Nick retiring, the prospect of Seth second guessing a decision to move back east away from family starts to make a little more sense. His vision of a career at PSU including a redshirt and rolling around on the mat with big bro for a year or more, may have been dashed. Likewise the Kirkvliet rumors now gain some immediate credibility.

B) The Bo/Shak swap may or may not happen but on balance the impact to March is probably a wash (caveate below). Cael opening the door for him to move up, sounds more plausible. I think with another year of competition under Shak's belt (as long as he doesn't have tank issues), he will give MyMar all he can handle with his motor and athleticism. In this sense the swap may make us stronger as a team with a long shot for 2 champs.

C) With what we know today, there are big changes afoot and if I were to assign a probability to the collection of rumors, innuendo and conspiracy theories - Sadly, I see a better than 50/50 chance we never see Nick in a blue and while singlet again. If the Kerkvliet stuff holds true I also think the same goes for Seth. Wow!

What a change from March! With all the moving peices, this is starting rival last year's off season drama.
 
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All the rumors of Bo bumping up to 197 have nothing to do with avoiding Zahid or a cut being too much, it seems, as others have mentioned, to solely be in line with what he needs to do to be a full sized 86kg with 2020 Olympics in mind. As for Caesar, I like what the guys on FRL said yesterday...what is easier to get into the lineup beat Bo or Nevills.
 
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Guys help me find the flaw in my thinking. My spider sense is telling me there is far more to this picture than meets the eye. The consensus now (including Flo and visual confirmation of his 'huge'ness) is Cassar is going Hwt. So the question is why?

1) Shak beat him out - yes, but I don't buy for a second, that last year translates unchallenged over to this year. I was in the camp that Cassar, one more year removed from a 2 year injury Rehab period, would have taken back the starting spot. No way he goes up for this reason alone. (Probability 15%)

2) The cut is too tough - maybe, he is a big dude, but I am not convinced a 230 lb Cassar is good enough to beat out a 2x AA 265 lb healthy Nick Nevills. Who jumps weight classes to reduce his chances at wrestling? (Probability 20%)

3) Nick Nevills is hurt or retiring - sounds more plausible but, by itself (Probability 30%) I think Cassar at 197 challenging Shak is still a much better scenario for him to place on the top 1/2 of the podium. Likewise this move simply preserves Seth's redshirt this year. Seth could have been ready to go, and as a true frosh with a better than even shot to low AA, and if Nick could heal and get a medical, Seth could RS next year as Nick comes back and goes for a final year. Net-net is even with Nick hurt, that alone isn't a compelling reason for Cassar to give up on a shot with destiny at 197.

4) Bo is moving up - I think there is little doubt Bo wins that wrestle off, but I am not convinced the cut was getting too tough for him and he is not one to run from Zahid, he would welcome that challenge if Z bumps. Even if Bo were to move up, Cassar could still serve as an awesome insurance policy in case of a god-forbid injury to Bo, where Shak is cemented to 184. (Probability 20%).

The Lions are a team, these kids love each other. The prospect of Bo bumping two AA capable guys doesn't resonate with me. It would take a combination of balls, arrogance and selfishness to do that in this case - that is not Bo Nickal the teammate.

On balance I am not convinced with any of these theories "alone" is even a 50% probability.

This tells me a combination if events is driving the scenario, and the effect on the team is broader than most are considering at this early date. So what cascading set of dominos is coming in to play here?

1) I think Nick may indeed be hurt. Hurt more seriously than we all believe. If he had a second surgery where the docs say instability prevents a 'full' competitive recovery, maybe he is hanging it up. If so he would have told Cael long ago. I can see where Cael knowing the cut was difficult saw Cassar's going up as the best 'Team' option, plus AC has a full 6 months lead time to pack on good (shirtless adonis calendar) weight as opposed to bad weight.

This still leaves the question of Seth, why not simply burn his shirt? Unfortunately, with Nick retiring, the prospect of Seth second guessing a decision to move back east away from family starts to make a little more sense. His vision of a career at PSU including a redshirt and rolling around on the mat with big bro for a year or more, may have been dashed. Likewise the Kirkvliet rumors now gain some immediate credibility.

2) The Bo/Shak swap may or may not happen but on balance the impact to March is probably a wash (caveate below). Cael opening the door for him to move up, sounds more plausible. I think with another year of competition under Shak's belt (as long as he doesn't have tank issues), he will give MyMar all he can handle with his motor and athleticism. In this sense the swap may make us stronger as a team with a long shot for 2 champs.

3) With what we know today, there are big changes afoot and if I were to assign a probability to the collection of rumors, innuendo and conspiracy theories - Sadly, I see a better than 50/50 chance we never see Nick in a blue and while singlet again. If the Kerkvliet stuff holds true I also think the same goes for Seth. Wow!

What a change from March! With all the moving peices, this is starting rival last year's off season drama.

The flaw in your thinking is that you have two sets of numbered bullet points in the same post.

And I get critiqued for being too wordy.
 
anyone want to put odds on our lineup going 184 bo, 197 shak/cassar, hwt nevills for the first dual next season? it seems like everyone thinks this is impossible at this point
 
anyone want to put odds on our lineup going 184 bo, 197 shak/cassar, hwt nevills for the first dual next season? it seems like everyone thinks this is impossible at this point

My brain is in a pretzel of trying to discern if we are all bored and missing college wrestling so all of these theories are made up and discussed because it is F**, or if people have actual insights and are sharing realistic probabilities.

I love it either way. I do think the "status quo" of Bo, Shak/Cassar, Nevills is the most likely -- but I am fascinated by all the chatter.

One thing that sticks in my head, though, is when Cael said (to paraphrase): Zain picks his weight and everything falls into place after that.... Same would be true for Bo in the upper weights.
 
I think if Bo moves up, we then start to hear that Zahid will follow. Which I think makes us a stronger tournament and dual team than if he stays down. Maybe the strongest team yet in my opinion.

PS- the berge bandwagon is getting set to sell tickets.
 
I think if Bo moves up, we then start to hear that Zahid will follow. Which I think makes us a stronger tournament and dual team than if he stays down. Maybe the strongest team yet in my opinion.

PS- the berge bandwagon is getting set to sell tickets.

I’ve been on the Berge wagon soon as he arrived, also he well outperformed Verk at a few offseason tournaments(yes I know Free ain’t Folk) this after Zain raved about how tough a kid Verk is. Also, Berge had HUGE credentials as a prep. Brady at 49 will be Nails! HUGE GET, MUST HAVE!!!!!
 
I think the real question here is if Bo (noodle arms)and Cassar (V raptor) move up, do they loose their nicknames?
 
Personally I think our strongest lineup would be:

Shak - 184lbs
Bo - Full size 197lbs
Nevills - HWT (healthy Nevills would be the best option).
 
What I find most interesting is that the general consensus is that Penn State is favored to repeat as national champions in 2019 and yet there is so much uncertainty on most of the line-up. We know Cael will send out the best lineup possible; we just don't know what it will be for the most part.

125: Will Teske RS or will he go if Teasdale can't make weight? Can Teasdale make weight? If not Teske or Teasdale does Schnupp repeat or possibly Clabaugh?

133: Most think RBY will go, but does he go if Teasdale can't make weight at 125? So it is probably Teasdale or RBY here, but we don't know. Which one will RS?

141: Does Nick Lee RS and Verk get a shot?

149: Most think Berge (as do I), but if Lee doesn't RS does Verk try and go at 149?

157: Nolf - period; last year - where did the time go!

165: Joseph - period.

174: Hall - period.

184: Bo or Shak; clearly Bo if he chooses to wrestle at this weight.

197: Bo, Shak or Cassar; again Bo if he chooses to wrestle at this weight,

HWT: Is Nick injured? If so, is the injury such that he retires? Does Cassar attempt to go at this weight? Does Seth Nevills wrestle as a true freshman if his brother can't go? Lets throw in Kerkvliet for fun and what does that do to the Nevills brothers (if anything)?

Makes for great speculation during the slow season, but lots of questions and we know we won't get any definitive answers until October at the earliest. So I will speculate and think this is the lineup: Teasdale, RBY, Lee, Berge, Nolf, Joseph, Hall, Bo, Cassar, Nevills (Nick or Seth).
 
Giggles,

Seth a better than even shot to AA as a true frosh? History wouldn’t be your friend on that one.

I would agree except the HWt class cleared out pretty dramatically this year. It either 5 or 6 of the top 10 are gone. Seth is a stud I definitely see #8 as a 50/50 proposition. Track wrestling even has Cassar at #10 already (oddly enough with Nick at #1 as well)
 
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My brain is in a pretzel of trying to discern if we are all bored and missing college wrestling so all of these theories are made up and discussed because it is F**, or if people have actual insights and are sharing realistic probabilities.

I love it either way. I do think the "status quo" of Bo, Shak/Cassar, Nevills is the most likely -- but I am fascinated by all the chatter.

One thing that sticks in my head, though, is when Cael said (to paraphrase): Zain picks his weight and everything falls into place after that.... Same would be true for Bo in the upper weights.

Two summers ago, I let myself over-emphasize a best-for-the-team lineup (albeit my own perceived best-for-the-team) over that last bolded piece you've got there. So I was really floored when Nickal didn't even certify at 174--blocking its possibility and any flexibility Cael might have. But that bolded piece proved out: National Champion picks his own weight and again becomes National Champion. And, oh btw, after Nickal bumped up and forced McCutcheon up, Cael pulls Hall off RS, so he could still *also* have a National Champion at the weight Nickal vacated. Then the next year, Shakur did the same thing to McCutcheon, and became an All-American.

The track record, it's kind of a thing. So I'm going with the track record this Summer, and starting with the 2x Champ:

Nickal
Not a bad time to start adjusting to the new UWW same-day weigh-ins, this Summer. Zain's said that's why he took the Freestyle season off. If Nickal's eyeing up repping the US in Tokyo, he's looking at cutting to 74kg/163lbs Burroughs or Dake (nah), ballooning to 97kg/213lbs Captain America (I'll never LOL at Nickal, but ...) or reshaping his body to a full-size 86kg/190lbs and taking on Taylor, which seems the best fit, right? Depending on USAW calendar tweeks, he needs to be ready with whatever plan in April-May of 2020, almost exactly 1 year after his last NCAAs. Sure, he could do all that then, from March 2019 to March 2020, but why do that after a year of cutting to 184lbs? There's no 2019 Freestyle Season incentive, either, since the weight class for the non-Oly years nearest to 86kg/190lbs is 79kg/174lbs, and even bigger dumber cut he didn't even want for college in the 2017 season! Why not start now, stop cutting to 184, try to grow into/above 190, get a jump on wrestling bigger bodies who make weight at 197 during this last college season? And then even give a go at Taylor in April-May 2019?

Caesar (love it, will borrow, tia!)
Bo wants to get a jump on his 2020 weight class, so Caesar's gotta adjust and has this view & decision tree:
197: incoming 3x Finalist, 2x Champ who he's undoubtedly familiar with or
285: injured/recovering 260-pound 2x AA, who he likely knows the health status of
Bonus: cut or don't cut?

Shakur
Rasheed was pretty famous for his funny quips about enjoying not cutting last year, and he grew & ate & competed well enough to bump both McCutcheon AND Caesar. And lookie there, he earned his first All-American! But alas, lineup spots in this dynasty are year-to-year and now he's facing the same choice he had last year: face off against Nickal, or adjust. Difference of course being adjust via chicken & brownies consumption (last year) or chicken & brownies abstention (this year).

Nick Nevills
We watched him win a 7th place AA bout with a really gimpy shoulder, can guess he had surgery this offseason (I haven't read it anywhere yet, just an easy guess). Either way, he's recovering from injury. But we & he both know his weight class is heavily cleared out in this, his last, season and if he ever had aspirations of being a National Champion, a healthy recovery this year would be ideal. We know Roar has said the coaches indicated they're far more likely / prepared to start the season with the lineup they're more confident would be the March lineup, barring circumstances that jack up projections (this is my heavy paraphrase of a Roar post from last month). But circumstances that jack projections definitely include injury--and recovery. So it's totally reasonable imo to look at N Nevills 2019 prospects along the two semester/two seasons lines.

If you lasted through all that blather, I'll wrap you up with a summary of my current taek on the tea leaves:
125 Teasdale
133 RBY
141 Lee (not giving a 2hr weigh-in Verk option here much weight)
149 Berge
157 Nolf
165 Cenzo
174 Hall
184 Rasheed (I hope he opts for the cut vs transfer)
197 Nickal
285 Semester 1: Caesar
285 Semester 2: Nevills vs Caesar for the right to rep B1Gs
 
If you lasted through all that blather, I'll wrap you up with a summary of my current taek on the tea leaves:
125 Teasdale
133 RBY
141 Lee (not giving a 2hr weigh-in Verk option here much weight)
149 Berge
157 Nolf
165 Cenzo
174 Hall
184 Rasheed (I hope he opts for the cut vs transfer)
197 Nickal
285 Semester 1: Caesar
285 Semester 2: Nevills vs Caesar for the right to rep B1Gs

I'm pretty much with you on the lineup. I think it's probably the last year Teasdale will be able to make 125 and Teske could use a year to grow into 125, so having Teasdale man 125 this season makes a lot of sense. I believe Teasdale and RBY will alternate RS years down the road.
 
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jto....good writing, and good thinking..I think.
Except for your failure to distinguish between the nutritional/weight value of (lean) chicken and brownies.

Of course, for myself, I have never been able to eat skinless chicken...seems to miss the whole point.
 
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Personally I think our strongest lineup would be:

Shak - 184lbs
Bo - Full size 197lbs
Nevills - HWT (healthy Nevills would be the best option).


Yep, me as well. Admittedly I'm not what I would call a fair-weather fan and I'll be cheering loud and long for whoever takes the mat in the blue singlet, but I think your lineup probably provides the most sure-fire All Americans and the most points at nationals (although once again PSU could field a lineup of backups that would feature multiple AAs and a high team finish).
 
Two summers ago, I let myself over-emphasize a best-for-the-team lineup (albeit my own perceived best-for-the-team) over that last bolded piece you've got there. So I was really floored when Nickal didn't even certify at 174--blocking its possibility and any flexibility Cael might have. But that bolded piece proved out: National Champion picks his own weight and again becomes National Champion. And, oh btw, after Nickal bumped up and forced McCutcheon up, Cael pulls Hall off RS, so he could still *also* have a National Champion at the weight Nickal vacated. Then the next year, Shakur did the same thing to McCutcheon, and became an All-American.

The track record, it's kind of a thing. So I'm going with the track record this Summer, and starting with the 2x Champ:

Nickal
Not a bad time to start adjusting to the new UWW same-day weigh-ins, this Summer. Zain's said that's why he took the Freestyle season off. If Nickal's eyeing up repping the US in Tokyo, he's looking at cutting to 74kg/163lbs Burroughs or Dake (nah), ballooning to 97kg/213lbs Captain America (I'll never LOL at Nickal, but ...) or reshaping his body to a full-size 86kg/190lbs and taking on Taylor, which seems the best fit, right? Depending on USAW calendar tweeks, he needs to be ready with whatever plan in April-May of 2020, almost exactly 1 year after his last NCAAs. Sure, he could do all that then, from March 2019 to March 2020, but why do that after a year of cutting to 184lbs? There's no 2019 Freestyle Season incentive, either, since the weight class for the non-Oly years nearest to 86kg/190lbs is 79kg/174lbs, and even bigger dumber cut he didn't even want for college in the 2017 season! Why not start now, stop cutting to 184, try to grow into/above 190, get a jump on wrestling bigger bodies who make weight at 197 during this last college season? And then even give a go at Taylor in April-May 2019?

Caesar (love it, will borrow, tia!)
Bo wants to get a jump on his 2020 weight class, so Caesar's gotta adjust and has this view & decision tree:
197: incoming 3x Finalist, 2x Champ who he's undoubtedly familiar with or
285: injured/recovering 260-pound 2x AA, who he likely knows the health status of
Bonus: cut or don't cut?

Shakur
Rasheed was pretty famous for his funny quips about enjoying not cutting last year, and he grew & ate & competed well enough to bump both McCutcheon AND Caesar. And lookie there, he earned his first All-American! But alas, lineup spots in this dynasty are year-to-year and now he's facing the same choice he had last year: face off against Nickal, or adjust. Difference of course being adjust via chicken & brownies consumption (last year) or chicken & brownies abstention (this year).

Nick Nevills
We watched him win a 7th place AA bout with a really gimpy shoulder, can guess he had surgery this offseason (I haven't read it anywhere yet, just an easy guess). Either way, he's recovering from injury. But we & he both know his weight class is heavily cleared out in this, his last, season and if he ever had aspirations of being a National Champion, a healthy recovery this year would be ideal. We know Roar has said the coaches indicated they're far more likely / prepared to start the season with the lineup they're more confident would be the March lineup, barring circumstances that jack up projections (this is my heavy paraphrase of a Roar post from last month). But circumstances that jack projections definitely include injury--and recovery. So it's totally reasonable imo to look at N Nevills 2019 prospects along the two semester/two seasons lines.

If you lasted through all that blather, I'll wrap you up with a summary of my current taek on the tea leaves:
125 Teasdale
133 RBY
141 Lee (not giving a 2hr weigh-in Verk option here much weight)
149 Berge
157 Nolf
165 Cenzo
174 Hall
184 Rasheed (I hope he opts for the cut vs transfer)
197 Nickal
285 Semester 1: Caesar
285 Semester 2: Nevills vs Caesar for the right to rep B1Gs

We might see changes at 6 different weight classes than what we saw in March.

When was the last time a team repeated as National Champions with that many changes?
 
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Yep, me as well. Admittedly I'm not what I would call a fair-weather fan and I'll be cheering loud and long for whoever takes the mat in the blue singlet, but I think your lineup probably provides the most sure-fire All Americans and the most points at nationals (although once again PSU could field a lineup of backups that would feature multiple AAs and a high team finish).

Agreed. You have to look at it from a point potential standpoint. Bo is going to win 184lbs or 197lbs, whichever one he goes. Shak will do better, in my opinion, at 184lbs than he will at 197lbs, although Shak is an AA if he goes 197lbs. I just think he'll provide more points at 184lbs. He was a slightly smaller 197lber and he would be a full size 184lber.

And between Cassar and Nevills at HWT I think Nevills would be the better option. Cassar, while he would be a large human being would still be a small HWT.
 
I recall the earlier Young Guns post that I believe spoke to 1) Bo to 97, 2) Cassar to Heavy, and 3) Shak possibly transferring.

While there's certainly been a lot of chatter about 1-2, I haven't (thankfully) heard any about 3. So, is it safe to assume to assume Shak is staying put at PSU? If not, who is our new 84 if Bo moves up?
 
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I recall the earlier Young Guns post that I believe spoke to 1) Bo to 97, 2) Cassar to Heavy, and 3) Shak possibly transferring.

While there's certainly been a lot of chatter about 1-2, I haven't (thankfully) heard any about 3. So, is it safe to assume to assume Shak is staying put? If not, who is our new 84 if Bo moves up?
In that scenario I would assume Shak is at 184. He would have a choice if Bo is at 197, cut to 184 (which is not a huge cut for him), transfer or watch a lot of wrestling.
 
What I find most interesting is that the general consensus is that Penn State is favored to repeat as national champions in 2019 and yet there is so much uncertainty on most of the line-up. We know Cael will send out the best lineup possible; we just don't know what it will be for the most part.

125: Will Teske RS or will he go if Teasdale can't make weight? Can Teasdale make weight? If not Teske or Teasdale does Schnupp repeat or possibly Clabaugh?

133: Most think RBY will go, but does he go if Teasdale can't make weight at 125? So it is probably Teasdale or RBY here, but we don't know. Which one will RS?

141: Does Nick Lee RS and Verk get a shot?

149: Most think Berge (as do I), but if Lee doesn't RS does Verk try and go at 149?

157: Nolf - period; last year - where did the time go!

165: Joseph - period.

174: Hall - period.

184: Bo or Shak; clearly Bo if he chooses to wrestle at this weight.

197: Bo, Shak or Cassar; again Bo if he chooses to wrestle at this weight,

HWT: Is Nick injured? If so, is the injury such that he retires? Does Cassar attempt to go at this weight? Does Seth Nevills wrestle as a true freshman if his brother can't go? Lets throw in Kerkvliet for fun and what does that do to the Nevills brothers (if anything)?

Makes for great speculation during the slow season, but lots of questions and we know we won't get any definitive answers until October at the earliest. So I will speculate and think this is the lineup: Teasdale, RBY, Lee, Berge, Nolf, Joseph, Hall, Bo, Cassar, Nevills (Nick or Seth).

it's all reputation (earned) - that is why so many darts are thrown...
 
I recall the earlier Young Guns post that I believe spoke to 1) Bo to 97, 2) Cassar to Heavy, and 3) Shak possibly transferring.

While there's certainly been a lot of chatter about 1-2, I haven't (thankfully) heard any about 3. So, is it safe to assume to assume Shak is staying put at PSU? If not, who is our new 84 if Bo moves up?

Shak transferring over an 8 lb cut in his senior year as part of a national championship team is beyond absurd!
 
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