Putin does his "we-have-not-yet-begun-to-fight" number

Jerry

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From a speech to the Russian Parliament two days ago:

>>Everyone should know that we haven't started anything yet in earnest. Today we hear that they want to defeat us on the battlefield. What can you say, let them try. We have heard many times that the West wants to fight us to the last Ukrainian. This is a tragedy for the Ukrainian people, but it seems that everything is heading towards this.<<

That's called throwing down the gauntlet. A translation would be: >>Send as many weapons as you want, but we're gonna do whatever it takes to win this.<< But hey, no worries...what could go wrong??

Listen, Putin's a bad guy...I get that. His invasion of Ukraine is a moral atrocity...I get that too. But those have never been the questions. The question is the interest of the American people. Not Ukraine...or Europe...or the globalist Ruling Class...or the planet Neptune...but rather the citizens of our own country. Unfortunately, Dem-Media doesn't care about them and never has. Why not? Well Vlad touched on that earlier in the same speech:

>>The ruling classes of the Western countries, which are supranational and globalist in nature, realize that their policies are increasingly detached from reality, common sense, and the truth, and they have started resorting to openly despotic methods.

The West, which once declared such principles of democracy as freedom of speech, pluralism and respect for dissenting opinions, has now degenerated into the opposite: totalitarianism. This includes censorship, media bans, and the arbitrary treatment of journalists and public figures.

These kinds of prohibitions have been extended not only to the information space, but also to politics, culture, education, and art – to all spheres of public life in the Western countries. And, they are imposing this on the world; they are trying to impose this model, a model of totalitarian liberalism, including the notorious cancel culture of widespread bans.

However, the truth and reality is that the people in most of these countries do not want this life or this future, and really do not want the formal semblance of sovereignty, they want substantive, real sovereignty and are simply tired of kneeling, of humiliating themselves before those who consider themselves exceptional, and of serving their interests even to their own detriment.<<


You could cut the irony with a knife. I mean, it's a speech that Trump could have given...and actually did...more than once...to include in his Inaugural Address as the Regime's best and brightest looked on with a sneer, knowing what they had in store for Bad Orange Man. And they delivered big-time.

So now here we are, six years later, and it falls to a Russian dictator to cut to the heart of the Regime's game.

We're gonna wake up one morning and find ourselves staring down the barrel of an unthinkable existential crisis. When that happens, let nobody say it couldn't have been predicted or imagined.
 
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interrobang

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What does Russia have left though? It's not like there's a war machine factory pushing out new ammo/tanks/planes every day.
 

Jerry

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What does Russia have left though? It's not like there's a war machine factory pushing out new ammo/tanks/planes every day.

They've reportedly got 6,000 nuclear warheads of which approximately 2,000 are in-theater tactical type weapons designed for battlefield use.

If backed against the wall, I think they'll use them rather than "lose" in Ukraine.

Things are not to that point yet. Let's hope they never get there. But when Putin says "we haven't started anything yet in earnest," that should perhaps be taken as a warning. Not that the overgrown juveniles in charge of our government are inclined to pay any attention of course.
 
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rumble_lion

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From a speech to the Russian Parliament two days ago:

>>Everyone should know that we haven't started anything yet in earnest. Today we hear that they want to defeat us on the battlefield. What can you say, let them try. We have heard many times that the West wants to fight us to the last Ukrainian. This is a tragedy for the Ukrainian people, but it seems that everything is heading towards this.<<

That's called throwing down the gauntlet. A translation would be: >>Send as many weapons as you want, but we're gonna do whatever it takes to win this.<< But hey, no worries...what could go wrong??

Listen, Putin's a bad guy...I get that. His invasion of Ukraine is a moral atrocity...I get that too. But those have never been the questions. The question is the interest of the American people. Not Ukraine...or Europe...or the globalist Ruling Class...or the planet Neptune...but rather the citizens of our own country. Unfortunately, Dem-Media doesn't care about them and never has. Why not? Well Vlad touched on that earlier in the same speech:

>>The ruling classes of the Western countries, which are supranational and globalist in nature, realize that their policies are increasingly detached from reality, common sense, and the truth, and they have started resorting to openly despotic methods.

The West, which once declared such principles of democracy as freedom of speech, pluralism and respect for dissenting opinions, has now degenerated into the opposite: totalitarianism. This includes censorship, media bans, and the arbitrary treatment of journalists and public figures.

These kinds of prohibitions have been extended not only to the information space, but also to politics, culture, education, and art – to all spheres of public life in the Western countries. And, they are imposing this on the world; they are trying to impose this model, a model of totalitarian liberalism, including the notorious cancel culture of widespread bans.

However, the truth and reality is that the people in most of these countries do not want this life or this future, and really do not want the formal semblance of sovereignty, they want substantive, real sovereignty and are simply tired of kneeling, of humiliating themselves before those who consider themselves exceptional, and of serving their interests even to their own detriment.<<


You could cut the irony with a knife. I mean, it's a speech that Trump could have given...and actually did...more than once...to include in his Inaugural Address as the Regime's best and brightest looked on with a sneer, knowing what they had in store for Bad Orange Man. And they delivered big-time.

So now here we are, six years later, and it falls to a Russian dictator to cut to the heart of the Regime's game.

We're gonna wake up one morning and find ourselves staring down the barrel of an unthinkable existential crisis. When that happens, let nobody say it couldn't have been predicted or imagined.

The ruling classes of the Western countries, which are supranational and globalist in nature, realize that their policies are increasingly detached from reality, common sense, and the truth, and they have started resorting to openly despotic methods.

Like resorting to invading a country?
 

Lion8286

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They've reportedly got 6,000 nuclear warheads of which approximately 2,000 are in-theater tactical type weapons designed for battlefield use.

If backed against the wall, I think they'll use them rather than "lose" in Ukraine.

Things are not to that point yet. Let's hope they never get there. But when Putin says "we haven't started anything yet in earnest," that should perhaps be taken as a warning. Not that the overgrown juveniles in charge of our government are inclined to pay any attention of course.

You need to calm down a little, Jerry. Putin is famous for saber rattling. Thankfully you are not in charge of our government.
 

Ski

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What does Russia have left though? It's not like there's a war machine factory pushing out new ammo/tanks/planes every day.

Right. The Ruskies are pulling 1960's T-62s out of mothballs along with MT-LB armored vehicles that were designed in the 1950's. Lately, they have modified some of their S-300 air defense systems to strike ground targets, which indicates that they are dealing with a missile shortage. The sanctions everyone hates are having an effect on the ability of the Ruskies to rearm and resupply.

I would be keeping my eye on what is going on in Belarus, as they can provide the Ruskies a shot in the arm if Pooty Poot can convince them to attack Ukraine. The Ruskies are moving some equipment to Belarus. It may be a faint or it could be very early at the beginning of something bigger.
 
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The Spin Meister

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From a speech to the Russian Parliament two days ago:

>>Everyone should know that we haven't started anything yet in earnest. Today we hear that they want to defeat us on the battlefield. What can you say, let them try. We have heard many times that the West wants to fight us to the last Ukrainian. This is a tragedy for the Ukrainian people, but it seems that everything is heading towards this.<<

That's called throwing down the gauntlet. A translation would be: >>Send as many weapons as you want, but we're gonna do whatever it takes to win this.<< But hey, no worries...what could go wrong??

Listen, Putin's a bad guy...I get that. His invasion of Ukraine is a moral atrocity...I get that too. But those have never been the questions. The question is the interest of the American people. Not Ukraine...or Europe...or the globalist Ruling Class...or the planet Neptune...but rather the citizens of our own country. Unfortunately, Dem-Media doesn't care about them and never has. Why not? Well Vlad touched on that earlier in the same speech:

>>The ruling classes of the Western countries, which are supranational and globalist in nature, realize that their policies are increasingly detached from reality, common sense, and the truth, and they have started resorting to openly despotic methods.

The West, which once declared such principles of democracy as freedom of speech, pluralism and respect for dissenting opinions, has now degenerated into the opposite: totalitarianism. This includes censorship, media bans, and the arbitrary treatment of journalists and public figures.

These kinds of prohibitions have been extended not only to the information space, but also to politics, culture, education, and art – to all spheres of public life in the Western countries. And, they are imposing this on the world; they are trying to impose this model, a model of totalitarian liberalism, including the notorious cancel culture of widespread bans.

However, the truth and reality is that the people in most of these countries do not want this life or this future, and really do not want the formal semblance of sovereignty, they want substantive, real sovereignty and are simply tired of kneeling, of humiliating themselves before those who consider themselves exceptional, and of serving their interests even to their own detriment.<<


You could cut the irony with a knife. I mean, it's a speech that Trump could have given...and actually did...more than once...to include in his Inaugural Address as the Regime's best and brightest looked on with a sneer, knowing what they had in store for Bad Orange Man. And they delivered big-time.

So now here we are, six years later, and it falls to a Russian dictator to cut to the heart of the Regime's game.

We're gonna wake up one morning and find ourselves staring down the barrel of an unthinkable existential crisis. When that happens, let nobody say it couldn't have been predicted or imagined.
Jeebus....what a steaming pile of KGB porridge. And you just lap it up.

Putin is just beginning? After losing 1000 tanks, hundreds of aircraft, and more troops in four months than was lost in eight years in Afghanistan? He is forcing old men to fight, bringing in 40 year old tanks, using 1960s anti ship missiles to attack shopping malls. Took him four and half months to win what he predicted would take three days.....oh wait, he said he would take Kyiv in three or four days and he is hundreds of miles from that.

C’mon man,,,, get a grip. He is blustering. He needs to take a serious and long operational pause. He needs to find out what is left of his army, try to reassemble them into cohesive units, find a few officers he can trust, and then get them the weapons, ammo, and supplies they need.

And he ain’t gonna use any nukes. He knows if he does his country is toast. Burnt toast. Only way nukes comes into play is if his military has a total collapse and Ukraine chases them deep into Russia....which also ain’t gonna happen.

All that talk about globalism, authoritarianism, totalitory liberalism, and more is just his KGB training to use western catch phrases against themselves. He studied all the dissension in the west and is using it against us. And for this ass hat to cry about free speech, pluralism, sovereignty is about a laughable as a speech by Kamala or Hildebeast.

Jeeebus ....can’t believe you buy this crappola. He is puffing around while suffering a Pyrrhic victory. A couple more like this and Putin is finished.
 
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The Spin Meister

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The West, which once declared such principles of democracy as freedom of speech, pluralism and respect for dissenting opinions, has now degenerated into the opposite: totalitarianism. This includes censorship, media bans, and the arbitrary treatment of journalists and public figures.
This passage was especially ironic. This guy is the poster boy for totalitarian behaviors. Cry me a River Putin you scumbag.

What a laughable attempt at KGB brainwashing tactics. So obvious....like Magoo blaming Putin for all his screwups. Who knows, maybe he is trying to convince his own security team that all is not lost and he should stay in power.

This may be the worst speech Putin ever made. Shows either how desperate he is or how much his mental abilities have slipped.
 
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Lion8286

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Do you think Putin will accept defeat?

Have no idea. However, the US (regardless of the POTUS) should not go all wobbly knees every time Russia saber rattles.

Putin knows what would happen with any misstep. It wouldn't be pretty, and he knows it.
 
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KnightWhoSaysNit

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Have no idea. However, the US (regardless of the POTUS) should not go all wobbly knees every time Russia saber rattles.

Putin knows what would happen with any misstep. It wouldn't be pretty, and he knows it.

Suppose Putin uses a tactical nuke on Kiev. What does Brandon do with the nuclear football? Hand off to the full back or punt? How about a pass to Kamala?
 

Lion8286

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Suppose Putin uses a tactical nuke on Kiev. What does Brandon do with the nuclear football? Hand off to the full back or punt? How about a pass to Kamala?

Don't know Putin's end game nor do I know how things will play out in the next few months. However I cannot foresee an nuke on Kiev in the near future. I could be wrong.
 
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KnightWhoSaysNit

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Don't know Putin's end game nor do I know how things will play out in the next few months. However I cannot foresee an nuke on Kiev in the near future. I could be wrong.

My point is that what we have here is a desperate man on his last leg that would like his statue in place of Lenin's. You think he would not take a chance when the US has an inept government from top to bottom?

Having our country fall apart economically and descend into criminal chaos may be the least of our worries. The Oval Office at this time is no place for someone who is practically brain dead, and under the control of people who think our highest priority should be a social experiment.
 

Lion8286

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My point is that what we have here is a desperate man on his last leg that would like his statue in place of Lenin's. You think he would not take a chance when the US has an inept government from top to bottom?

Having our country fall apart economically and descend into criminal chaos may be the least of our worries. The Oval Office at this time is no place for someone who is practically brain dead, and under the control of people who think our highest priority should be a social experiment.

So?? What's your prediction? Seen your posts and you sound a little too brainwashed (not in a good way). lol
 

NJPSU

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So?? What's your prediction? Seen your posts and you sound a little too brainwashed (not in a good way). lol
He’s definitely brainwashed. We just created over 300k jobs last month with sub 4% unemployment and he’s acting like we are in the Great Depression. He’s panicking because he didn’t financially prepare well for his retirement.
 

Jerry

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The ruling classes of the Western countries, which are supranational and globalist in nature, realize that their policies are increasingly detached from reality, common sense, and the truth, and they have started resorting to openly despotic methods.

Like resorting to invading a country?

Bzzzt. Non sequitur alert.

His invasion of Ukraine is a moral atrocity as I have stated here multiple times. The fact that the blind arrogance of Dem-Media policymakers set the stage for and practically invited it -- see the John Mearsheimer analysis that I previously posted and link again for your convenience -- does not change the fact that it's a moral atrocity.

However, neither does the fact that it's a moral atrocity change the truth of the paragraph that you quoted...or the parts I excerpted in the OP. The irony, as I said, is that it falls to a Russian dictator to say this....since truth is a rare commodity in Washington these days.

 

Jerry

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You need to calm down a little, Jerry. Putin is famous for saber rattling. Thankfully you are not in charge of our government.

Ah yes, if only I were in charge...things would be much better for everyone...to include 9 million Ukrainian refugees.

But seriously, the last time we pooh-poohed Putin's saber-rattling, Ukraine had not been wrecked, the global economy had not been turned on its head, gas was not $5.00 a gallon, Germany was not facing an existential energy crisis, and a new world order hostile to U.S, interests was not in the process of development.

Therefore, the reflexive response of dismissing Putin's rhetoric as empty saber-rattling may not be wise. I mean, you have to wonder what things will look like three months from now. I'm guessing not better.
 

Jerry

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Right. The Ruskies are pulling 1960's T-62s out of mothballs along with MT-LB armored vehicles that were designed in the 1950's. Lately, they have modified some of their S-300 air defense systems to strike ground targets, which indicates that they are dealing with a missile shortage. The sanctions everyone hates are having an effect on the ability of the Ruskies to rearm and resupply.

I would be keeping my eye on what is going on in Belarus, as they can provide the Ruskies a shot in the arm if Pooty Poot can convince them to attack Ukraine. The Ruskies are moving some equipment to Belarus. It may be a faint or it could be very early at the beginning of something bigger.

Your first paragraph above is one big reason why the "saber-rattling" now is alarming, Ski. I mean, if there were no arrows left in Moscow's quiver, would Putin be making those statements?

OK, it could be pure bluster. In fact, the Western leadership class, led by Washington, has auto-defaulted to that caricature at every step down the road of this disaster. It hasn't worked out well for them...or Ukraine. Maybe it eventually will. Not sure how much will be left of Ukraine at that point, but the Regime isn't worried: it plans to ping American taxpayers for a cool trillion dollars or so to rebuild the country anyway.

As to the sanctions, it's never been my view that they are not hurting Moscow badly. They are. Rather, my position is that they're having serious unintended effects, that they're boomeranging big-time on the West as well, and that the U.S. does not and never did have any national interest at stake in Ukraine that was remotely worth the cost of this train wreck.
 

Jerry

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Jeebus....what a steaming pile of KGB porridge. And you just lap it up.

Putin is just beginning? After losing 1000 tanks, hundreds of aircraft, and more troops in four months than was lost in eight years in Afghanistan? He is forcing old men to fight, bringing in 40 year old tanks, using 1960s anti ship missiles to attack shopping malls. Took him four and half months to win what he predicted would take three days.....oh wait, he said he would take Kyiv in three or four days and he is hundreds of miles from that.

C’mon man,,,, get a grip. He is blustering. He needs to take a serious and long operational pause. He needs to find out what is left of his army, try to reassemble them into cohesive units, find a few officers he can trust, and then get them the weapons, ammo, and supplies they need.

And he ain’t gonna use any nukes. He knows if he does his country is toast. Burnt toast. Only way nukes comes into play is if his military has a total collapse and Ukraine chases them deep into Russia....which also ain’t gonna happen.

All that talk about globalism, authoritarianism, totalitory liberalism, and more is just his KGB training to use western catch phrases against themselves. He studied all the dissension in the west and is using it against us. And for this ass hat to cry about free speech, pluralism, sovereignty is about a laughable as a speech by Kamala or Hildebeast.

Jeeebus ....can’t believe you buy this crappola. He is puffing around while suffering a Pyrrhic victory. A couple more like this and Putin is finished.

I knew the OP would smoke you out, Spin. ;)

Again, I just think it's ironic as hell. Call it bluster. Call it propaganda. Call it KGB manipulation. It may be all those things...and also dead-on true at the same time. I mean, as I said, there are many lines in that address that could have been lifted straight from a standard Trump speech. I mean, seriously, what specifically in the excerpted paragraphs did the man get wrong?

Speaking of manipulation, it's been my view that the Regime would like us to believe that a dictator 5,000 miles away is the chief threat to our democracy to distract from the fact that the real threat is a lot closer to home: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

In any case, the Great Debate goes on. So far I think that events on the ground strongly vindicate my view over yours. But the final chapter of the story is far from being written, and when it is, perhaps you'll be proven right. I actually hope this is the case...for all our sakes.
 

Obliviax

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What does Russia have left though? It's not like there's a war machine factory pushing out new ammo/tanks/planes every day.
They have an unprecedented flow of resources. They haven’t used tactical nukes and they’ve held off using their hypersonic weapons ( more advanced than ours). Make no mistake, they are winning in a war of attrition. While sanctions have been inconvenient, China and other nations have stepped in. It is hard to know who the sanctions have hurt worse. They are worldwide protests against inflation and economies have been damaged.

The problem is the Russia is so huge they are hard to hurt. They are quickly self sufficient and militarily very diverse. It is just a matter of Will for them. The wild card is putin’s health. But if he is healthy and save, Ukraine has no hope
 

bdgan

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The way we respond to Putin is a damned if we do and damned if we don't scenario. It's easy to second guess our response but there are no great answers.

I definitely think the sanctions are hurting Russia but maybe not as much as we hoped. China and India have become closer allies of Russia which is not a good thing. Russia is exporting as much oil as ever.

My pet peeve is that the U.S. is spending more to support Ukraine than all other countries combined in spite of the fact that Europe is more impacted than the U.S. Trump was right about NATO.
 

The Spin Meister

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I knew the OP would smoke you out, Spin. ;)

Again, I just think it's ironic as hell. Call it bluster. Call it propaganda. Call it KGB manipulation. It may be all those things...and also dead-on true at the same time. I mean, as I said, there are many lines in that address that could have been lifted straight from a standard Trump speech. I mean, seriously, what specifically in the excerpted paragraphs did the man get wrong?

Speaking of manipulation, it's been my view that the Regime would like us to believe that a dictator 5,000 miles away is the chief threat to our democracy to distract from the fact that the real threat is a lot closer to home: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

In any case, the Great Debate goes on. So far I think that events on the ground strongly vindicate my view over yours. But the final chapter of the story is far from being written, and when it is, perhaps you'll be proven right. I actually hope this is the case...for all our sakes.
Well, when you present such an easy target it’s hard to resist!😉

So Putin pointed out some serious concerns we have with our own government leadership. Doesn’t mean he is right or justified. Sadly, we must deal with our own scumbags and deal with Putin at the same time. And his using conservative talking points doesn’t make him my friend. And I refuse to fall for his ruse.

In fact, he probably saw all the infighting in the west and felt it was time to take advantage of our divisions. He over estimated those divisions and is now trying to play off of them to buy time to rebuild his decimated military.

And as for using nukes. Ain’t gonna happen. His ‘powerful’ military has had its ass kicked by a bunch of ragtag militias using Vietnam era /1990s weaponry. The people of the Donbas stood up and fought against him, including most Russian speaking people. He knows if he uses a single nuke NATO would likely unleash it’s top line weaponry and decimate what ever is left of his military. No need to respond with nukes, just a barrage of F-22, F-35s, cruise missiles, combined with Brit and French attacks. And his military command knows this.

And always with the Mearsheimer postulates. So easy to say ‘I was right’ when you don’t have to provide any evidence. Especially when history has shown time and again that appeasing mad men never works. Handing over the Donbas would only have encouraged more adventurism. Weakness always does.
 
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Jerry

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Just as a thought experiment that may blow your mind, juxtapose these lines out of the mouth of the Russian dictator with Bari Weiss's recent address, linked below, to a college audience in Texas:

>>The West, which once declared such principles of democracy as freedom of speech, pluralism and respect for dissenting opinions, has now degenerated into the opposite: totalitarianism. This includes censorship, media bans, and the arbitrary treatment of journalists and public figures.

These kinds of prohibitions have been extended not only to the information space, but also to politics, culture, education, and art – to all spheres of public life in the Western countries. And, they are imposing this on the world; they are trying to impose this model, a model of totalitarian liberalism, including the notorious cancel culture of widespread bans.<<


 

The Spin Meister

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An altered state
Just as a thought experiment that may blow your mind, juxtapose these lines out of the mouth of the Russian dictator with Bari Weiss's recent address, linked below, to a college audience in Texas:

>>The West, which once declared such principles of democracy as freedom of speech, pluralism and respect for dissenting opinions, has now degenerated into the opposite: totalitarianism. This includes censorship, media bans, and the arbitrary treatment of journalists and public figures.

These kinds of prohibitions have been extended not only to the information space, but also to politics, culture, education, and art – to all spheres of public life in the Western countries. And, they are imposing this on the world; they are trying to impose this model, a model of totalitarian liberalism, including the notorious cancel culture of widespread bans.<<


So I guess we should support Putin. And not just stop at the Polish border. Let him take all of Europe and get rid of those globalist totalitarian liberals. Think we should amend the Constitution to have him be President?
 

Hotshoe

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He’s definitely brainwashed. We just created over 300k jobs last month with sub 4% unemployment and he’s acting like we are in the Great Depression. He’s panicking because he didn’t financially prepare well for his retirement.
You have to be the most ignorant person in the country. Prepare for a once every 100 year pandemic, and a government that went out of control with spending causing massive inflation and shortages. While you're at it, throw in a war in the absolute worst place one could occur. Your little bubble isn't reality with the vast majority of the world.
 
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KnightWhoSaysNit

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He’s definitely brainwashed. We just created over 300k jobs last month with sub 4% unemployment and he’s acting like we are in the Great Depression. He’s panicking because he didn’t financially prepare well for his retirement.

We did not create new jobs. We restored old jobs that the government killed.

And you would be wrong about me. I did prepare well. Lived well below means for most of life. What I did not expect would be that the government would willingly and recklessly induce inflation above 5%. So the pension portion of my assets is basically being confiscated, and now the savings part are being confiscated too. In realistic terms inflation could be 15-20% or more. That is not in anyone's retirement plan unless they are perhaps a 1%-er.

Some have their retirement security tied to their business, then had that destroyed by the government. Did they plan well? Fact is, no one is safe when the government falls into the ideals of what is effectively communism -- the confiscation of property. Your monetary assets are in that category. In fact dollar-denominated assets are nothing more than a government promissory note. To me it appears that the government is effectively defaulting on that promise, through inflation.

A lot of people think they are going to get 7+ % real returns above inflation, and retired on that basis. They are now disillusioned. Me? I am not surprised, but there isn't much I can do about it. I won't go into my personal story, but the government indirectly forced me into retirement through policies that came with the usual "unintended consequences." We see it in nearly everything that the government does.

For all but a couple of years, the government hasn't balanced its budget in the last half of a century without inflating debt away. There's no real economic growth potential to support a large, retiring generation unless there is some kind of significant invention. But Democrats are doing the opposite, stifling productivity by raising the cost of energy and skewing our labor pool towards people with no skills. (And that's not just "immigration." That includes what it has done to our standards of education too.)

We are in some deep crap here. Inflation doesn't come down until productivity (supply) goes up, and I'm not talking about more cargo ships being able to land at port. The economy cannot be propped up any further by cutting interest rates. We hit negative real rates of perhaps 5-10%, maybe worse. Now we are in a monetary tightening environment out of necessity, but without the mentality to deal with it. The wealth disparity is massive as so many are truly not prepared, but are allowed to vote. Yes, we will follow the way of Europe and then probably China or the USSR. This last election showed that people will vote for their own demise.
 

Jerry

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The way we respond to Putin is a damned if we do and damned if we don't scenario. It's easy to second guess our response but there are no great answers.

I definitely think the sanctions are hurting Russia but maybe not as much as we hoped. China and India have become closer allies of Russia which is not a good thing. Russia is exporting as much oil as ever.

My pet peeve is that the U.S. is spending more to support Ukraine than all other countries combined in spite of the fact that Europe is more impacted than the U.S. Trump was right about NATO.

It's far too late for "great answers"...or even good answers. Now the choice is strictly between bad and worse.

The time for a good answer was before this train wreck took place. We missed the chance. In fact, our policy was almost designed to miss it.
 
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Jerry

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Well, when you present such an easy target it’s hard to resist!😉

So Putin pointed out some serious concerns we have with our own government leadership. Doesn’t mean he is right or justified. Sadly, we must deal with our own scumbags and deal with Putin at the same time. And his using conservative talking points doesn’t make him my friend. And I refuse to fall for his ruse.

In fact, he probably saw all the infighting in the west and felt it was time to take advantage of our divisions. He over estimated those divisions and is now trying to play off of them to buy time to rebuild his decimated military.

And as for using nukes. Ain’t gonna happen. His ‘powerful’ military has had its ass kicked by a bunch of ragtag militias using Vietnam era /1990s weaponry. The people of the Donbas stood up and fought against him, including most Russian speaking people. He knows if he uses a single nuke NATO would likely unleash it’s top line weaponry and decimate what ever is left of his military. No need to respond with nukes, just a barrage of F-22, F-35s, cruise missiles, combined with Brit and French attacks. And his military command knows this.

And always with the Mearsheimer postulates. So easy to say ‘I was right’ when you don’t have to provide any evidence. Especially when history has shown time and again that appeasing mad men never works. Handing over the Donbas would only have encouraged more adventurism. Weakness always does.

I agree, Spin, the fact that Putin has correctly diagnosed the corruption and moral disease of Dem-Media's leadership class and Wokeist ideology does not make Russia's invasion right or justified. However, it does expose the utter phoniness and hypocrisy of Dem-Media lectures on the supposed threat to American democracy posed by Russia. Because the hard fact is, the chief threat to American democracy is not located in Moscow...but rather in Washington.

I don't know Putin's estimation of our country's divisions, but it would be hard to overestimate them. They are real. They are profound. And they are historic in dimension.

I'm not downplaying the heroism of Ukraine's resistance. But the fact is that the country has been wrecked, a crippling maritime blockade has been imposed, Russian forces occupy the entirety of the Luhansk region as well as more than half of Donetsk and a southern swath of the country connecting Donestsk to Crimea. That's a high price to pay. The question is whether it was necessary, and well, you know my opinion on that.

Re Mearsheimer saying "I was right" without evidence, good heavens, Spin, the evidence is right in front of your eyes. Here's his money quote from seven years before the conflict:

>>The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path, and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked.<<

I'd say what we see on the ground today in Ukraine is a pretty good imitation of wreckage.
 

McCloudersportLion

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It would be nice if we had Donald Glumph buying Greenland and his most handsome fatbody baller suit and not doing this stuff pushing Russia into give China Arctic access. China- they are always trying to weasel around Novoskrutusk to step on Rusky's Arctic territory toes.
 
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Jerry

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So I guess we should support Putin. And not just stop at the Polish border. Let him take all of Europe and get rid of those globalist totalitarian liberals. Think we should amend the Constitution to have him be President?

Hmmmm. Putin...or Senile Joe. Tough call. I don't know, Spin, I'll have to give that some thought and get back to you... ;)
 

NJPSU

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Your first paragraph above is one big reason why the "saber-rattling" now is alarming, Ski. I mean, if there were no arrows left in Moscow's quiver, would Putin be making those statements?
You have to be the most ignorant person in the country. Prepare for a once every 100 year pandemic, and a government that went out of control with spending causing massive inflation and shortages. While you're at it, throw in a war in the absolute worst place one could occur. Your little bubble isn't reality with the vast majority of the world.
Ah so I guess it’s not all Biden’s fault after all. Finally got a wingnut to admit it.
 

Jerry

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It's interesting, the division in the conservative camp with regard to the Ukraine train wreck.

I mean, OK, Dem-Media is in lockstep. No surprise. Supply the talking points to the Hive, and the bees will dutifully buzz them out 24/7.

Dem-Media's rabid-dog response to Russia is first of all ideological. The Russians are seen as a major impediment to the global importation of Wokeism and must therefore be broken. Hell, Moscow opposes Pride Month and the Transgender Cult. Say no more.

But within conservative ranks, where people actually, like, think or at least try to, it's not nearly that simple.

You've got the Tucker Carlson wing -- I'm in that group -- which thinks the policy of our Ruling Class is madness and a product of hopeless corruption.

You've got a bunch of Republican office-holders who answer to their wealthy military-industrial-complex donors.

You've got sincere people who've never comprehended that the Soviet Union is long gone, and the successor state has nothing remotely in common with it either in terms of power or ideology.

You've got an assortment of people who hate Russia for reasons of history or ethnicity.

The list goes on.

But the one thing that unites the Russia-hating wing of the conservative movement is the inability or unwillingness to understand that the existential struggle of our time is not political but rather ideological...moral...spiritual.

The war has changed. The dividing lines are different. I wish nothing but the best for Ukraine, but its fate has little to do with that of my own country, which is being decided a lot closer to home than Moscow.

Those who think otherwise are either decent but misguided people (the conservatives) or hopeless fools (the Useful Idiots) or themselves complicit in the rotten game (Dem-Media Incorporated and its Regime toadies).
 

The Spin Meister

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Nov 27, 2012
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An altered state
It's interesting, the division in the conservative camp with regard to the Ukraine train wreck.

I mean, OK, Dem-Media is in lockstep. No surprise. Supply the talking points to the Hive, and the bees will dutifully buzz them out 24/7.

Dem-Media's rabid-dog response to Russia is first of all ideological. The Russians are seen as a major impediment to the global importation of Wokeism and must therefore be broken. Hell, Moscow opposes Pride Month and the Transgender Cult. Say no more.

But within conservative ranks, where people actually, like, think or at least try to, it's not nearly that simple.

You've got the Tucker Carlson wing -- I'm in that group -- which thinks the policy of our Ruling Class is madness and a product of hopeless corruption.

You've got a bunch of Republican office-holders who answer to their wealthy military-industrial-complex donors.

You've got sincere people who've never comprehended that the Soviet Union is long gone, and the successor state has nothing remotely in common with it either in terms of power or ideology.

You've got an assortment of people who hate Russia for reasons of history or ethnicity.

The list goes on.

But the one thing that unites the Russia-hating wing of the conservative movement is the inability or unwillingness to understand that the existential struggle of our time is not political but rather ideological...moral...spiritual.

The war has changed. The dividing lines are different. I wish nothing but the best for Ukraine, but its fate has little to do with that of my own country, which is being decided a lot closer to home than Moscow.

Those who think otherwise are either decent but misguided people (the conservatives) or hopeless fools (the Useful Idiots) or themselves complicit in the rotten game (Dem-Media Incorporated and its Regime toadies).
I am in the ‘list goes on’ segment. A realist.

Yes we have enemies within. Socialism, Marxism, anarchists, and and whole lot more. We must deal with them or the Republic will fail. But we cannot solely focus on them and ignore the globe.

We faced serious internal threats before. The Great Depression was the biggest internal threat since the Civil War. We faced many of the same factions and the same forces. And while we were so focused on our problems the world fell into chaos. But no need to fear.....what happens 5000 miles from home doesn’t threaten us right?

The world didn’t care about Hitler. Germany was just a broken country destroyed by The Great War and just a shadow of its former self. Their lust for empire was long extinguished.

So what if Hitler started to annex neighbors. So what if he built up his military. So what if he actually attacked a couple. We have huge oceans.....that is soooooo far away.....we have our own problems.

Incredible how history repeats itself. How we are taking the same path. How we never learn from the lesson of humanity’s dark past.
 
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rumble_lion

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I am in the ‘list goes on’ segment. A realist.

Yes we have enemies within. Socialism, Marxism, anarchists, and and whole lot more. We must deal with them or the Republic will fail. But we cannot solely focus on them and ignore the globe.

We faced serious internal threats before. The Great Depression was the biggest internal threat since the Civil War. We faced many of the same factions and the same forces. And while we were so focused on our problems the world fell into chaos. But no need to fear.....what happens 5000 miles from home doesn’t threaten us right?

The world didn’t care about Hitler. Germany was just a broken country destroyed by The Great War and just a shadow of its former self. Their lust for empire was long extinguished.

So what if Hitler started to annex neighbors. So what if he built up his military. So what if he actually attacked a couple. We have huge oceans.....that is soooooo far away.....we have our own problems.

Incredible how history repeats itself. How we are taking the same path. How we never learn from the lesson of humanity’s dark past.

I'm sure Putin will stop after Ukraine. I've been told that deep down inside he is really a nice person.
 

maypole

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May 9, 2022
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I am in the ‘list goes on’ segment. A realist.

Yes we have enemies within. Socialism, Marxism, anarchists, and and whole lot more. We must deal with them or the Republic will fail. But we cannot solely focus on them and ignore the globe.

We faced serious internal threats before. The Great Depression was the biggest internal threat since the Civil War. We faced many of the same factions and the same forces. And while we were so focused on our problems the world fell into chaos. But no need to fear.....what happens 5000 miles from home doesn’t threaten us right?

The world didn’t care about Hitler. Germany was just a broken country destroyed by The Great War and just a shadow of its former self. Their lust for empire was long extinguished.

So what if Hitler started to annex neighbors. So what if he built up his military. So what if he actually attacked a couple. We have huge oceans.....that is soooooo far away.....we have our own problems.

Incredible how history repeats itself. How we are taking the same path. How we never learn from the lesson of humanity’s dark past.
The real problem is righty MAGA Nazis who would love Hitler, as they love Putin.
 

Jerry

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May 29, 2001
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I am in the ‘list goes on’ segment. A realist.

Yes we have enemies within. Socialism, Marxism, anarchists, and and whole lot more. We must deal with them or the Republic will fail. But we cannot solely focus on them and ignore the globe.

We faced serious internal threats before. The Great Depression was the biggest internal threat since the Civil War. We faced many of the same factions and the same forces. And while we were so focused on our problems the world fell into chaos. But no need to fear.....what happens 5000 miles from home doesn’t threaten us right?

The world didn’t care about Hitler. Germany was just a broken country destroyed by The Great War and just a shadow of its former self. Their lust for empire was long extinguished.

So what if Hitler started to annex neighbors. So what if he built up his military. So what if he actually attacked a couple. We have huge oceans.....that is soooooo far away.....we have our own problems.

Incredible how history repeats itself. How we are taking the same path. How we never learn from the lesson of humanity’s dark past.

Not that I'd put you in this group, but there's another major category that fits in "list-goes-on," and that's the neocons, who never met a war they didn't like. Exhibit A: Bush Junior's ill-fated crusade for global democracy that led to such debacles as Iraq and Libya.

Afghanistan too, where we accomplished what we needed to do in, like, six months but then hung around for another 20 pointless years. You'd think maybe the neocons would learn but no. Now they're all hot to save the world in Ukraine. Anyway, it's no accident that most of them have gravitated to Dem-Media.

That aside, I think you've mischaracterized the concept of "realism" in foreign policy. In fact, on my list, it's the Tucker Carlson camp who are the realists. John Mearsheimer is not only considered a realist, but he even wrote a book on the topic titled The Tragedy of Great Power Politics. The Harvard scholar Stephen Walt is also a leading voice in that group. There are many others.

Classically, the definition of "realism" is the placement of national interests and security above ideology, ethics, and morality in the conduct of foreign policy. That's been precisely my argument in the debate with you going back to last year.

Meanwhile, your whole thesis of Putin-as-Hitler and Russia-as-Nazi-Germany is just misplaced and delusional, in my view. The mighty Russian military has all it can do to take the Donbas region of Ukraine, yet you continue to posit it as a threat to the entire continent of Europe. You can call such thinking a lot of things, but don't call it "realism."

I'm all for learning from history. In fact, that's an essential precept of conservatism. But it's critical to learn the right lessons. I don't think you've done that, Spin.
 

Jerry

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May 29, 2001
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I'm sure Putin will stop after Ukraine. I've been told that deep down inside he is really a nice person.

Dear God.

You people need to get your stories straight.

Is it: A) the outnumbered Ukrainians have ground up the Russian military and exposed the mediocrity of its equipment, the unprofessionalism of its enlisted ranks, and the incompetence of its command.

Or: B) the mighty Russian military stands ready to take over all of Europe once it dispenses with Ukraine.

You can have one but not both. Then again, reality has never been an impediment for y'all.

Let me help you out: (A) is reality. (B) is fantasy.

Try again.
 

rumble_lion

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Aug 7, 2011
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Not that I'd put you in this group, but there's another major category that fits in "list-goes-on," and that's the neocons, who never met a war they didn't like. Exhibit A: Bush Junior's ill-fated crusade for global democracy that led to such debacles as Iraq and Libya.

Afghanistan too, where we accomplished what we needed to do in, like, six months but then hung around for another 20 pointless years. You'd think maybe the neocons would learn but no. Now they're all hot to save the world in Ukraine. Anyway, it's no accident that most of them have gravitated to Dem-Media.

That aside, I think you've mischaracterized the concept of "realism" in foreign policy. In fact, on my list, it's the Tucker Carlson camp who are the realists. John Mearsheimer is not only considered a realist, but he even wrote a book on the topic titled The Tragedy of Great Power Politics. The Harvard scholar Stephen Walt is also a leading voice in that group. There are many others.

Classically, the definition of "realism" is the placement of national interests and security above ideology, ethics, and morality in the conduct of foreign policy. That's been precisely my argument in the debate with you going back to last year.

Meanwhile, your whole thesis of Putin-as-Hitler and Russia-as-Nazi-Germany is just misplaced and delusional, in my view. The mighty Russian military has all it can do to take the Donbas region of Ukraine, yet you continue to posit it as a threat to the entire continent of Europe. You can call such thinking a lot of things, but don't call it "realism."

I'm all for learning from history. In fact, that's an essential precept of conservatism. But it's critical to learn the right lessons. I don't think you've done that, Spin.

Not that I'd put you in this group, but there's another major category that fits in "list-goes-on," and that's the neocons, who never met a war they didn't like. Exhibit A: Bush Junior's ill-fated crusade for global democracy that led to such debacles as Iraq and Libya.

Afghanistan too, where we accomplished what we needed to do in, like, six months but then hung around for another 20 pointless years. You'd think maybe the neocons would learn but no. Now they're all hot to save the world in Ukraine. Anyway, it's no accident that most of them have gravitated to Dem-Media.

The problem the neocons always had was the inevitable backlash from all the body bags returning to the states from whatever war they were pushing. For now they appear to have found a sweet spot with Ukraine - massive spending on "military aid" and no involvement from US troops. Degrading Putin's military is just icing on top.
 
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