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Pulitzer Prizes -- Mostly Agree, 1 SMH

Tom McAndrew

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2001
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Yesterday, the Pulitzer Prizes were announced. I read a lot of newspaper articles and commentary, and thought for the most part the award winners were excellent choices.

I had mixed feelings for the award in Commentary.

The prize went to Nikole Hannah-Jones, of the NYT, for the 1619 Project. Her writings on the 1619 Project were exceptional. I would have been shocked if the award had gone to anybody else.

The other finalists in this category were:

1. Steve Lopez (LA Times) -- he's been an exceptional writer for decades, primarily at the Philadelphia Inquirer and the LA Times. If not for the 1619 Project, he would have been a worthy winner this year
2. Sally Jenkins (Washington Post) -- sorry, but I have a long memory. She is, for the most part, a very good writer. That said, I don't have any interest in reading anything she writes

FWIW, the Pulitzer Prizes for books were also announced on Monday. They made a good choice in the history category.
 
Yesterday, the Pulitzer Prizes were announced. I read a lot of newspaper articles and commentary, and thought for the most part the award winners were excellent choices.

I had mixed feelings for the award in Commentary.

The prize went to Nikole Hannah-Jones, of the NYT, for the 1619 Project. Her writings on the 1619 Project were exceptional. I would have been shocked if the award had gone to anybody else.

The other finalists in this category were:

1. Steve Lopez (LA Times) -- he's been an exceptional writer for decades, primarily at the Philadelphia Inquirer and the LA Times. If not for the 1619 Project, he would have been a worthy winner this year
2. Sally Jenkins (Washington Post) -- sorry, but I have a long memory. She is, for the most part, a very good writer. That said, I don't have any interest in reading anything she writes

FWIW, the Pulitzer Prizes for books were also announced on Monday. They made a good choice in the history category.
Sarah Ganim won a Pulitzer Prize.
 
The prize went to Nikole Hannah-Jones, of the NYT, for the 1619 Project. Her writings on the 1619 Project were exceptional. I would have been shocked if the award had gone to anybody else.

Not surprising that the Pulitzer went to someone widely criticized for using factual misrepresentations and selective references to further her discredited theories.
 
Yesterday, the Pulitzer Prizes were announced. I read a lot of newspaper articles and commentary, and thought for the most part the award winners were excellent choices.

I had mixed feelings for the award in Commentary.

The prize went to Nikole Hannah-Jones, of the NYT, for the 1619 Project. Her writings on the 1619 Project were exceptional. I would have been shocked if the award had gone to anybody else.

The other finalists in this category were:

1. Steve Lopez (LA Times) -- he's been an exceptional writer for decades, primarily at the Philadelphia Inquirer and the LA Times. If not for the 1619 Project, he would have been a worthy winner this year
2. Sally Jenkins (Washington Post) -- sorry, but I have a long memory. She is, for the most part, a very good writer. That said, I don't have any interest in reading anything she writes

FWIW, the Pulitzer Prizes for books were also announced on Monday. They made a good choice in the history category.

Burn sally jenkins down to the ground.
 
Tom, I'm actually somewhat shocked that you - as a historian - bought this line of crap. Sorry. This is (debunked) fiction passed off as an historical review and isn't fair to , well, anyone. Says a lot about a lot of things around here to be honest.


the historical issues raised about the 1619 Project are, in the big picture, rather minor, and often a matter of perspective.

Gordon Wood is one of the most distinguished living historians of the Revolutionary War. I've read every book he's written. He was one of the historians that signed the letter sent to the NYT editors and publisher complaining about some aspects of the 1619 Project.

James McPherson was another of the historians that signed the letter. His focus is more on the Civil War, but I've read a few of his books over the years.

Sean Wilentz, a Princeton historian, is the individual that started the criticism, and circulated the letter that the aforementioned historians, plus two other historians, signed. He's subsequently stated:

"Each of us, all of us, think that the idea of the 1619 Project is fantastic. I mean, it's just urgently needed. The idea of bringing to light not only scholarship but all sorts of things that have to do with the centrality of slavery and of racism to American history is a wonderful idea."

and

"Far from an attempt to discredit the 1619 Project, our letter is intended to help it."

Slavery, and how it was handled by various regions of the USA from 1619 until the Civil War, is a huge issue in US history. Add to that how Reconstruction was corrupted, and how many former slaves, and their descendants, were subjugated in the century after the Civil War, plus the ongoing racial issues that remain in the USA, make the 1619 Project a monumental undertaking.

The claim made about the Rev War was something that I immediately identified as inaccurate as it was presented. ("One of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.") However, Nikole has since indicated that this statement was a mistake, and that she is not including it in the book that's she's writing which expands on the 1619 Project. The statement was too sweeping. However, for certain individuals in certain colonies, and in some nuances, it was correct; it just didn't apply broadly to all 13 colonies.

The 1619 Project was not fiction. It was a huge collection of written pieces, on a subject that that is still an undercurrent in race relations in the USA. Some of the statements made in the pieces have generated controversy. While some of those controversies are based on historical accuracy/inaccuracy, some are based more on perspective.
 
the historical issues raised about the 1619 Project are, in the big picture, rather minor, and often a matter of perspective.

Gordon Wood is one of the most distinguished living historians of the Revolutionary War. I've read every book he's written. He was one of the historians that signed the letter sent to the NYT editors and publisher complaining about some aspects of the 1619 Project.

James McPherson was another of the historians that signed the letter. His focus is more on the Civil War, but I've read a few of his books over the years.

Sean Wilentz, a Princeton historian, is the individual that started the criticism, and circulated the letter that the aforementioned historians, plus two other historians, signed. He's subsequently stated:

"Each of us, all of us, think that the idea of the 1619 Project is fantastic. I mean, it's just urgently needed. The idea of bringing to light not only scholarship but all sorts of things that have to do with the centrality of slavery and of racism to American history is a wonderful idea."

and

"Far from an attempt to discredit the 1619 Project, our letter is intended to help it."

Slavery, and how it was handled by various regions of the USA from 1619 until the Civil War, is a huge issue in US history. Add to that how Reconstruction was corrupted, and how many former slaves, and their descendants, were subjugated in the century after the Civil War, plus the ongoing racial issues that remain in the USA, make the 1619 Project a monumental undertaking.

The claim made about the Rev War was something that I immediately identified as inaccurate as it was presented. ("One of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.") However, Nikole has since indicated that this statement was a mistake, and that she is not including it in the book that's she's writing which expands on the 1619 Project. The statement was too sweeping. However, for certain individuals in certain colonies, and in some nuances, it was correct; it just didn't apply broadly to all 13 colonies.

The 1619 Project was not fiction. It was a huge collection of written pieces, on a subject that that is still an undercurrent in race relations in the USA. Some of the statements made in the pieces have generated controversy. While some of those controversies are based on historical accuracy/inaccuracy, some are based more on perspective.
You stated it as fact Tom. The Northwestern Professor and many others think otherwise. Like I said - it's a free country. Let's just agree to disagree on the continuous re-writing of our history.

edit - you are also responding to a deleted post of mine here (one I considered and didn't like). I try to make the same point on another thread. To try to be more clear - I didn't like (appreciate) how you assumed this author (discredited in her field to me) would win this once prestigious award. You wanted us all to just assume along w/ you that this was the greatest work of writing in the past year. Meanwhile, it wasn't - to be honest. It was a propaganda piece - whether you want to admit it or not. There are 8th graders out there who could do better.

You can think what you want. Just don't even begin to think that you are thinking for, or influencing me.
 
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the historical issues raised about the 1619 Project are, in the big picture, rather minor, and often a matter of perspective.

Gordon Wood is one of the most distinguished living historians of the Revolutionary War. I've read every book he's written. He was one of the historians that signed the letter sent to the NYT editors and publisher complaining about some aspects of the 1619 Project.

James McPherson was another of the historians that signed the letter. His focus is more on the Civil War, but I've read a few of his books over the years.

Sean Wilentz, a Princeton historian, is the individual that started the criticism, and circulated the letter that the aforementioned historians, plus two other historians, signed. He's subsequently stated:

"Each of us, all of us, think that the idea of the 1619 Project is fantastic. I mean, it's just urgently needed. The idea of bringing to light not only scholarship but all sorts of things that have to do with the centrality of slavery and of racism to American history is a wonderful idea."

and

"Far from an attempt to discredit the 1619 Project, our letter is intended to help it."

Slavery, and how it was handled by various regions of the USA from 1619 until the Civil War, is a huge issue in US history. Add to that how Reconstruction was corrupted, and how many former slaves, and their descendants, were subjugated in the century after the Civil War, plus the ongoing racial issues that remain in the USA, make the 1619 Project a monumental undertaking.

The claim made about the Rev War was something that I immediately identified as inaccurate as it was presented. ("One of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.") However, Nikole has since indicated that this statement was a mistake, and that she is not including it in the book that's she's writing which expands on the 1619 Project. The statement was too sweeping. However, for certain individuals in certain colonies, and in some nuances, it was correct; it just didn't apply broadly to all 13 colonies.

The 1619 Project was not fiction. It was a huge collection of written pieces, on a subject that that is still an undercurrent in race relations in the USA. Some of the statements made in the pieces have generated controversy. While some of those controversies are based on historical accuracy/inaccuracy, some are based more on perspective.
I don’t know what the exact criteria for pulitzers are, but I thought it was generally for good writing. Here we have politically expressive writing that is erroneous. I think that’s often called propaganda.
 
The claim made about the Rev War was something that I immediately identified as inaccurate as it was presented. ("One of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.") However, Nikole has since indicated that this statement was a mistake, and that she is not including it in the book that's she's writing which expands on the 1619 Project. The statement was too sweeping. However, for certain individuals in certain colonies, and in some nuances, it was correct; it just didn't apply broadly to all 13 colonies.

Wow. The “statement” was a mistake? She generated a school curriculum intended to be taught in schools all across the country with the premise that the Revolutionary War and Civil War were both fought to perpetuate slavery and the ONE problem you have is her “mistatement.” It wasn’t the Intolerable Acts or British War debt or the quartering of troops? Slavery was still legal in Britain in 1776 and was in her overseas colonies until 1833, but you see her deliberate attempt to alter history as a misstatement?

How about conflating the 12.5 million Africans brought across in the whole history of the Atlantic slave trade with the 400,000 actually brought to America. Another misstatement?

I mean come on. I get it Tom, you lean left and thus have a desire to defend Hannah-Jones. And not everyone has the patience to do a deep critical analysis grounded in a reading of the actual curriculum, but with your life long, dedicated study of the Revolution you know she is dead wrong. That is not the definition of a mistake or a mistatement, but rather an obvious attempt to propagandize and promote falsehood.
 
Wow. The “statement” was a mistake? She generated a school curriculum intended to be taught in schools all across the country with the premise that the Revolutionary War and Civil War were both fought to perpetuate slavery and the ONE problem you have is her “mistatement.” It wasn’t the Intolerable Acts or British War debt or the quartering of troops? Slavery was still legal in Britain in 1776 and was in her overseas colonies until 1833, but you see her deliberate attempt to alter history as a misstatement?

Do try and stay on target.

First, the school curriculum to which you reference was a side part of the 1619 Project, and not what the Pulitzer was based on. As such, it's not even an issue here.

Second, I only highlighted one mistake in the writings of the 1619 Project. In multiple parts of my post, I spoke in the plural sense of mistakes that appeared in the various writings of the project. So your claim that I have "ONE problem" is inaccurate. I simply pointed out that specific issue, indicated how the writer has since acknowledged it as a mistake, and also how the statement wasn't completely wrong or completely right, but more of a nuanced situation.

Third, I would suggest that you read Quarters: The Accommodation of the British Army and the Coming of the American Revolution, by John Gilbert McCurdy. There is a common conception that the quartering of British troops was a leading issue in what caused the American Revolution. While quartering of British troops was one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence, British law prohibited it from taking place, and and it was a very minor issue in what caused the American Revolution.

Fourth, as for slavery in Britain, I never raised that issue, so it's really outside of this discussion. However, your statement about its legality in Britain in 1776 is inaccurate, though again, with some nuance. See the Somerset v Stewart case of 1772.

Fifth, I read history almost every day. I've mentioned before that I serve on a committee that awards an annual award for the best book on the American Revolution. In that capacity, I've yet to find a book that was without any error. Two years ago, we gave the award to a book that was exceptional, but also had a critical mistake in a sentence, that indicated that a pivotal event happened in XXXX year, when it actually happened in XXXY year. (The author was off by 1 year.) Was it a typo? Was it a mistake made by the editor? Was it a mistake by the author that was not caught by the editor? Neither myself nor any of the other committee members knew the answer to that question, as we read all the nominated books, and evaluate the writing, but don't ask for clarification for things that trouble us in any of the books. In that context, and with Nikole Hannah-Jones's more recent statements that she was inaccurate concerning her initial claim about the protection of slavery being one of the leading causes of the colonies declaring independence, I have concluded that in the broad scheme of the 1619 Project, that claim was a minor mistake. As I don't know Nikole Hannah-Jones (NH-J), yet I see mistakes in what historians and non-historians write about history almost every day, I certainly don't think that you can support your claim that NH-J was deliberately attempting to alter history.


I mean come on. I get it Tom, you lean left and thus have a desire to defend Hannah-Jones. And not everyone has the patience to do a deep critical analysis grounded in a reading of the actual curriculum, but with your life long, dedicated study of the Revolution you know she is dead wrong. That is not the definition of a mistake or a mistatement, but rather an obvious attempt to propagandize and promote falsehood.

Here you just go completely off the rails. As I've never, ever posted anything about my political thoughts, and work almost every day to remove from this board all political thoughts, I really doubt that you have any clue what my leanings are.

In addition, I don't think that I've defended NH-J. I don't know her, and have never met her. While she conceived of the 1619 Project, the project itself was not simply her writing. It was a massive number of articles, by several journalists. In totality, it was an extraordinary undertaking. It had some factual mistakes in it.

As I stated above, the curriculum was a side piece of the 1619 Project, and not part of the Pulitzer evaluation, so I'm not going to get into any type of debate concerning it.
 
Do try and stay on target. Little word of advice, when attempting a dialogue beginning with condescension is not a good look.

First, the school curriculum to which you reference was a side part of the 1619 Project, and not what the Pulitzer was based on. As such, it's not even an issue here. This can’t be a serious refutation. Her thesis was massively flawed because of her obvious ideologic leanings but she gets a pass because she initially did not intend her writings to be taught as curriculum? Odd.

Second, I only highlighted one mistake in the writings of the 1619 Project. In multiple parts of my post, I spoke in the plural sense of mistakes that appeared in the various writings of the project. So your claim that I have "ONE problem" is inaccurate. I simply pointed out that specific issue, indicated how the writer has since acknowledged it as a mistake, and also how the statement wasn't completely wrong or completely right, but more of a nuanced situation. A mistake is an oversight. An erroneous citation or something of that ilk. Making a historical argument that African-Americans are the only group in world history to perfect pure democracy or that the slave trade was a direct result of capitalism is insane. The Wealth of Nations was written 157 years before the first slave set foot in America.

Third, I would suggest that you read Quarters: The Accommodation of the British Army and the Coming of the American Revolution, by John Gilbert McCurdy. There is a common conception that the quartering of British troops was a leading issue in what caused the American Revolution. While quartering of British troops was one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence, British law prohibited it from taking place, and and it was a very minor issue in what caused the American Revolution. Refer back to your comments about “one mistake.” You focused on one example, the quartering of troops, without responding to the other causes sighted. The larger, unrefuted point, is that the protection of slavery had nothing to do with the American Revolution.

Fourth, as for slavery in Britain, I never raised that issue, so it's really outside of this discussion. However, your statement about its legality in Britain in 1776 is inaccurate, though again, with some nuance. See the Somerset v Stewart case of 1772. Interesting pieces of historical legal trivia aside, the larger point is that slavery had nothing to do with the American Revolution which was an extension of Hannah-Jones’ thesis.

Fifth, I read history almost every day. I've mentioned before that I serve on a committee that awards an annual award for the best book on the American Revolution. In that capacity, I've yet to find a book that was without any error. Two years ago, we gave the award to a book that was exceptional, but also had a critical mistake in a sentence, that indicated that a pivotal event happened in XXXX year, when it actually happened in XXXY year. (The author was off by 1 year.) Was it a typo? Was it a mistake made by the editor? Was it a mistake by the author that was not caught by the editor? Neither myself nor any of the other committee members knew the answer to that question, as we read all the nominated books, and evaluate the writing, but don't ask for clarification for things that trouble us in any of the books. In that context, and with Nikole Hannah-Jones's more recent statements that she was inaccurate concerning her initial claim about the protection of slavery being one of the leading causes of the colonies declaring independence, I have concluded that in the broad scheme of the 1619 Project, that claim was a minor mistake. As I don't know Nikole Hannah-Jones (NH-J), yet I see mistakes in what historians and non-historians write about history almost every day, I certainly don't think that you can support your claim that NH-J was deliberately attempting to alter history. Not sure what this is meant to be. An academic dick swinging contest? I too read history daily and have continued to do so after receiving two undergraduate degrees in both history and economics. A typo is certainly an understandable mistake to be made by any academic. Presenting an easily disprovable theory and then twisting historical reality in an attempt to prove it is not that. It is this kind of scholarship which allows someone like Goodwin to steal large swathes of material from other historians without attribution and get away with it because she “means well.” As a private citizen, in your personal life, you have every right to discern for yourself what passes as legitimate scholarship. As part of an academic committee you need to set a higher bar.



Here you just go completely off the rails. As I've never, ever posted anything about my political thoughts, and work almost every day to remove from this board all political thoughts, I really doubt that you have any clue what my leanings are. Engaging in debate with others who have opposing viewpoints, and who can be civil, is one of the great pleasures in life.You show me a man without a viewpoint and I will show one without the capacity to reason. The animal does not exist. The board bears your name. Moderate it as as you see fit.

In addition, I don't think that I've defended NH-J. I don't know her, and have never met her. While she conceived of the 1619 Project, the project itself was not simply her writing. It was a massive number of articles, by several journalists. In totality, it was an extraordinary undertaking. It had some factual mistakes in it.

As I stated above, the curriculum was a side piece of the 1619 Project, and not part of the Pulitzer evaluation, so I'm not going to get into any type of debate concerning it.
 
The claim made about the Rev War was something that I immediately identified as inaccurate as it was presented. ("One of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.") However, Nikole has since indicated that this statement was a mistake, and that she is not including it in the book that's she's writing which expands on the 1619 Project. The statement was too sweeping. However, for certain individuals in certain colonies, and in some nuances, it was correct; it just didn't apply broadly to all 13 colonies.

Wow. The “statement” was a mistake? She generated a school curriculum intended to be taught in schools all across the country with the premise that the Revolutionary War and Civil War were both fought to perpetuate slavery and the ONE problem you have is her “mistatement.” It wasn’t the Intolerable Acts or British War debt or the quartering of troops? Slavery was still legal in Britain in 1776 and was in her overseas colonies until 1833, but you see her deliberate attempt to alter history as a misstatement?

How about conflating the 12.5 million Africans brought across in the whole history of the Atlantic slave trade with the 400,000 actually brought to America. Another misstatement?

I mean come on. I get it Tom, you lean left and thus have a desire to defend Hannah-Jones. And not everyone has the patience to do a deep critical analysis grounded in a reading of the actual curriculum, but with your life long, dedicated study of the Revolution you know she is dead wrong. That is not the definition of a mistake or a mistatement, but rather an obvious attempt to propagandize and promote falsehood.

Wow what a surprise*
 
Tom
Do try and stay on target.

First, the school curriculum to which you reference was a side part of the 1619 Project, and not what the Pulitzer was based on. As such, it's not even an issue here.

Second, I only highlighted one mistake in the writings of the 1619 Project. In multiple parts of my post, I spoke in the plural sense of mistakes that appeared in the various writings of the project. So your claim that I have "ONE problem" is inaccurate. I simply pointed out that specific issue, indicated how the writer has since acknowledged it as a mistake, and also how the statement wasn't completely wrong or completely right, but more of a nuanced situation.

Third, I would suggest that you read Quarters: The Accommodation of the British Army and the Coming of the American Revolution, by John Gilbert McCurdy. There is a common conception that the quartering of British troops was a leading issue in what caused the American Revolution. While quartering of British troops was one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence, British law prohibited it from taking place, and and it was a very minor issue in what caused the American Revolution.

Fourth, as for slavery in Britain, I never raised that issue, so it's really outside of this discussion. However, your statement about its legality in Britain in 1776 is inaccurate, though again, with some nuance. See the Somerset v Stewart case of 1772.

Fifth, I read history almost every day. I've mentioned before that I serve on a committee that awards an annual award for the best book on the American Revolution. In that capacity, I've yet to find a book that was without any error. Two years ago, we gave the award to a book that was exceptional, but also had a critical mistake in a sentence, that indicated that a pivotal event happened in XXXX year, when it actually happened in XXXY year. (The author was off by 1 year.) Was it a typo? Was it a mistake made by the editor? Was it a mistake by the author that was not caught by the editor? Neither myself nor any of the other committee members knew the answer to that question, as we read all the nominated books, and evaluate the writing, but don't ask for clarification for things that trouble us in any of the books. In that context, and with Nikole Hannah-Jones's more recent statements that she was inaccurate concerning her initial claim about the protection of slavery being one of the leading causes of the colonies declaring independence, I have concluded that in the broad scheme of the 1619 Project, that claim was a minor mistake. As I don't know Nikole Hannah-Jones (NH-J), yet I see mistakes in what historians and non-historians write about history almost every day, I certainly don't think that you can support your claim that NH-J was deliberately attempting to alter history.




Here you just go completely off the rails. As I've never, ever posted anything about my political thoughts, and work almost every day to remove from this board all political thoughts, I really doubt that you have any clue what my leanings are.

In addition, I don't think that I've defended NH-J. I don't know her, and have never met her. While she conceived of the 1619 Project, the project itself was not simply her writing. It was a massive number of articles, by several journalists. In totality, it was an extraordinary undertaking. It had some factual mistakes in it.

As I stated above, the curriculum was a side piece of the 1619 Project, and not part of the Pulitzer evaluation, so I'm not going to get into any type of debate concerning it.

Tom,

I agree no historical book is written without some error. As a dude that spent the majority of my college career studying the Pre-Republic to 1815 time frame in American history and have read several books on the social and economic foundations of the revolution, her “mistake” came across as self-serving. She got called out for it and to her credit, admitted it was a mistake. It should never had been in there. Just my opinion.
 
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Do try and stay on target.

First, the school curriculum to which you reference was a side part of the 1619 Project, and not what the Pulitzer was based on. As such, it's not even an issue here.

Second, I only highlighted one mistake in the writings of the 1619 Project. In multiple parts of my post, I spoke in the plural sense of mistakes that appeared in the various writings of the project. So your claim that I have "ONE problem" is inaccurate. I simply pointed out that specific issue, indicated how the writer has since acknowledged it as a mistake, and also how the statement wasn't completely wrong or completely right, but more of a nuanced situation.

Third, I would suggest that you read Quarters: The Accommodation of the British Army and the Coming of the American Revolution, by John Gilbert McCurdy. There is a common conception that the quartering of British troops was a leading issue in what caused the American Revolution. While quartering of British troops was one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence, British law prohibited it from taking place, and and it was a very minor issue in what caused the American Revolution.

Fourth, as for slavery in Britain, I never raised that issue, so it's really outside of this discussion. However, your statement about its legality in Britain in 1776 is inaccurate, though again, with some nuance. See the Somerset v Stewart case of 1772.

Fifth, I read history almost every day. I've mentioned before that I serve on a committee that awards an annual award for the best book on the American Revolution. In that capacity, I've yet to find a book that was without any error. Two years ago, we gave the award to a book that was exceptional, but also had a critical mistake in a sentence, that indicated that a pivotal event happened in XXXX year, when it actually happened in XXXY year. (The author was off by 1 year.) Was it a typo? Was it a mistake made by the editor? Was it a mistake by the author that was not caught by the editor? Neither myself nor any of the other committee members knew the answer to that question, as we read all the nominated books, and evaluate the writing, but don't ask for clarification for things that trouble us in any of the books. In that context, and with Nikole Hannah-Jones's more recent statements that she was inaccurate concerning her initial claim about the protection of slavery being one of the leading causes of the colonies declaring independence, I have concluded that in the broad scheme of the 1619 Project, that claim was a minor mistake. As I don't know Nikole Hannah-Jones (NH-J), yet I see mistakes in what historians and non-historians write about history almost every day, I certainly don't think that you can support your claim that NH-J was deliberately attempting to alter history.




Here you just go completely off the rails. As I've never, ever posted anything about my political thoughts, and work almost every day to remove from this board all political thoughts, I really doubt that you have any clue what my leanings are.

In addition, I don't think that I've defended NH-J. I don't know her, and have never met her. While she conceived of the 1619 Project, the project itself was not simply her writing. It was a massive number of articles, by several journalists. In totality, it was an extraordinary undertaking. It had some factual mistakes in it.

As I stated above, the curriculum was a side piece of the 1619 Project, and not part of the Pulitzer evaluation, so I'm not going to get into any type of debate concerning it.

If the argument being made is that slavery contributed to the colonies' desire for independence, then slavery in Britain is relevant to the topic at hand. In R v Inhabitants of Thames Ditton, Lord Mansfield himself stated that his ruling in Somerset v Stewart was limited -- "The determinations go no further than that the master cannot be force compel him [a slave] to go out of the kingdom." It did nothing to end the institution of slavery in Britain, thus it did nothing to end slavery in the colonies either. Since this didn't happen until the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833, the colonies had no reason to use this as the basis for independence. That was @SUPERTODD 's point in including it in his response.
 
It is amazing the number of times Hannah-Jones has discredited herself and refuted every point her defenders have tried to make about her. I wonder if the former moderator on here is still lecturing people about how her theories are sound.

 
the historical issues raised about the 1619 Project are, in the big picture, rather minor, and often a matter of perspective.

Gordon Wood is one of the most distinguished living historians of the Revolutionary War. I've read every book he's written. He was one of the historians that signed the letter sent to the NYT editors and publisher complaining about some aspects of the 1619 Project.

James McPherson was another of the historians that signed the letter. His focus is more on the Civil War, but I've read a few of his books over the years.

Sean Wilentz, a Princeton historian, is the individual that started the criticism, and circulated the letter that the aforementioned historians, plus two other historians, signed. He's subsequently stated:

"Each of us, all of us, think that the idea of the 1619 Project is fantastic. I mean, it's just urgently needed. The idea of bringing to light not only scholarship but all sorts of things that have to do with the centrality of slavery and of racism to American history is a wonderful idea."

and

"Far from an attempt to discredit the 1619 Project, our letter is intended to help it."

Slavery, and how it was handled by various regions of the USA from 1619 until the Civil War, is a huge issue in US history. Add to that how Reconstruction was corrupted, and how many former slaves, and their descendants, were subjugated in the century after the Civil War, plus the ongoing racial issues that remain in the USA, make the 1619 Project a monumental undertaking.

The claim made about the Rev War was something that I immediately identified as inaccurate as it was presented. ("One of the primary reasons the colonists decided to declare their independence from Britain was because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery.") However, Nikole has since indicated that this statement was a mistake, and that she is not including it in the book that's she's writing which expands on the 1619 Project. The statement was too sweeping. However, for certain individuals in certain colonies, and in some nuances, it was correct; it just didn't apply broadly to all 13 colonies.

The 1619 Project was not fiction. It was a huge collection of written pieces, on a subject that that is still an undercurrent in race relations in the USA. Some of the statements made in the pieces have generated controversy. While some of those controversies are based on historical accuracy/inaccuracy, some are based more on perspective.
A Pulitzer based on that persons perspective. We have Nobel prizes and now Pulitzers based on BS. Our standards have gone down the rabbit hole so far it's ridiculous. We are now rewarding liberal view points with what used to be highly recognized awards.
 
A Pulitzer based on that persons perspective. We have Nobel prizes and now Pulitzers based on BS. Our standards have gone down the rabbit hole so far it's ridiculous. We are now rewarding liberal view points with what used to be highly recognized awards.
sounds like you Test Board types are all up in a tizzy .... don’t blame you... seems like it’s always “maybe next year” for authors like Mark Levin :(
 
sounds like you Test Board types are all up in a tizzy .... don’t blame you... seems like it’s always “maybe next year” for authors like Mark Levin :(
Mark Levin will never get either ‘prize’ as one must endorse the proper ideology just for consideration. It’s the autocratic way that Orwell warned us about.

To traditional people, libertarians, and conservatives 1984 was a warning. To the Marxists on the left it is roadmap to power.
 
Mark Levin will never get either ‘prize’ as one must endorse the proper ideology just for consideration. It’s the autocratic way that Orwell warned us about.

To traditional people, libertarians, and conservatives 1984 was a warning. To the Marxists on the left it is roadmap to power.
Engaging with him is a waste of time. Total mental midget. The next coherent point he makes will be his first.
 
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Mark Levin will never get either ‘prize’ as one must endorse the proper ideology just for consideration. It’s the autocratic way that Orwell warned us about.

To traditional people, libertarians, and conservatives 1984 was a warning. To the Marxists on the left it is roadmap to power.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA

YEAH, sure.... Mark Levin is a real victim ... guy is a conspiracy theory fomentor/ whackjob

gfy
 
Kinda OT, but when I was at the War college I was assigned a project on the Barbary Wars. While doing the research I came across a collection of writings from an OSU researcher named Bob Davis. He had the numbers for white European Slaves in North Africa at 1 to 1.5 million. This struck me as odd because I was certain if this were true I would have heard it before. This was happening while the Atlantic slave trade was still relatively small. This certainly doesn't negate the terrible history of slavery in the US. It does however, in my mind, change the narrative that the evil white colonist dreamed up modern slavery out of racism. Makes you wondern why these historians dont mention that at the very same time that the Atlantic slave trade was happening that Africans were holding 1 million + white European slaves?
 
Kinda OT, but when I was at the War college I was assigned a project on the Barbary Wars. While doing the research I came across a collection of writings from an OSU researcher named Bob Davis. He had the numbers for white European Slaves in North Africa at 1 to 1.5 million. This struck me as odd because I was certain if this were true I would have heard it before. This was happening while the Atlantic slave trade was still relatively small. This certainly doesn't negate the terrible history of slavery in the US. It does however, in my mind, change the narrative that the evil white colonist dreamed up modern slavery out of racism. Makes you wondern why these historians dont mention that at the very same time that the Atlantic slave trade was happening that Africans were holding 1 million + white European slaves?
Slavery was a worldwide issue before and after our civil war. We weren’t the first to abolish it, not the last. Racism is also not an exclusive American issue. This isn’t to excuse either but to point out our self loathing over these issues is ridiculous
 
Kinda OT, but when I was at the War college I was assigned a project on the Barbary Wars. While doing the research I came across a collection of writings from an OSU researcher named Bob Davis. He had the numbers for white European Slaves in North Africa at 1 to 1.5 million. This struck me as odd because I was certain if this were true I would have heard it before. This was happening while the Atlantic slave trade was still relatively small. This certainly doesn't negate the terrible history of slavery in the US. It does however, in my mind, change the narrative that the evil white colonist dreamed up modern slavery out of racism. Makes you wondern why these historians dont mention that at the very same time that the Atlantic slave trade was happening that Africans were holding 1 million + white European slaves?
Wow, never heard that before. Strange how this isn’t taught in every high school and elementary school and every university across the lands. After all, they say they want to teach the ‘true history’🤷🏼‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🙈
 
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BWAHAHAHAHAHA

YEAH, sure.... Mark Levin is a real victim ... guy is a conspiracy theory fomentor/ whackjob

gfy
Never said he was a victim. Just that the committees of these outfits are progressives that would not consider honoring any conservative.

And that conservatives see Orwell’s 1984 as a warning of an authoritarian future while ‘progressives’ see is it as an instruction manual how to gain perpetual power.

And the ‘gfy’ .........very classy, rational, and definitive.
 
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Never said he was a victim. Just that the committees of these outfits are progressives that would not consider honoring any conservative.

And that conservatives see Orwell’s 1984 as a warning of an authoritarian future while ‘progressives’ see is it as an instruction manual how to gain perpetual power.

And the ‘gfy’ .........very classy, rational, and definitive.
Over the last few years, I have been shocked at the lack of openness, curiosity, and respect given to someone having a different opinion. Today, of all times, one is blind if they cannot see the massive failings of both parties' ideologies. In the last four years, we've had several cases of blatant corruption, cover-ups, rioting, and unconstitutional executive actions. If people don't see that the govt needs oversight and reigned in today, they never will. It is sad.

I commend you for a fair and reasonable post.
 
Yesterday, the Pulitzer Prizes were announced. I read a lot of newspaper articles and commentary, and thought for the most part the award winners were excellent choices.

I had mixed feelings for the award in Commentary.

The prize went to Nikole Hannah-Jones, of the NYT, for the 1619 Project. Her writings on the 1619 Project were exceptional. I would have been shocked if the award had gone to anybody else.

The other finalists in this category were:

1. Steve Lopez (LA Times) -- he's been an exceptional writer for decades, primarily at the Philadelphia Inquirer and the LA Times. If not for the 1619 Project, he would have been a worthy winner this year
2. Sally Jenkins (Washington Post) -- sorry, but I have a long memory. She is, for the most part, a very good writer. That said, I don't have any interest in reading anything she writes

FWIW, the Pulitzer Prizes for books were also announced on Monday. They made a good choice in the history category.
 
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