Pass defense problems...scheme or personnel?

[sluggo72]

watch this play its qued up.....


it appears to me they are playing man free coverage (M to M across the board with the FS , free! Urbs called this cover 1 last week)
watch the corner.... he gets beat inside. Dont get beat inside vs Man to man, too easy a throw, he has to shut off the inside route. as soon as he backs up, it opens space for the inside route. Freeze instead, now he can't get inside, no space
Watch the safety, I mean where is he going, he should run right at the WR. period, and in the old days jack him up, or now just run thru him.
SMH.

 

[Thomas1945]

This thread has been interesting, providing input that has explained the problem and given several plausible solutions. However no one has really provided the actual answer. It’s simple, hire DON BROWN and all our defensive woes disappear. May I also submit that as an added bonus DON BROWN will also solve our game day parking issues, and cure any premature hair loss problems for board members.

 

[sluggo72]

one more, this is qued up, and as soon as you click it, click stop......to freeze it right at the snap...


as you can see with have 2 coming off the D's LHS, a LBer and a DB. If you watch, 36 flips his hips and immediately looks up the inside receiver, while the S starts to rotate that way.
IMO I think 29 Ozones on this play. I think (but dont know for sure) he has the outside receiver M/M and 36 is to run over to the inside receiver M/M with S help for both to prevent the long play. 29 jumps the inside guy, then 36 heads that way too, leaving the outside guy wide ass open. The S takes a poor angle to the ball, the band starts playing!
We ran this same blitz vs Appy state last year at least 2 x off the top of my head (and I believe some other games as well) We got burned by Appy State with this as well. Need to tear this page out of the play book. too far for the MLB to cover.

 

[Jerry]

As others have said, a lot comes back to the ability (or not) to get pressure on the QB -- all the more so when you play an aggressive defense, bringing linebackers and safeties. Otherwise, a guy can hit some throws, get in a rhythm, build confidence and end up looking like an All-American...especially with top-quality receivers at his disposal.

I'm going from recollection -- don't have the stomach to watch again -- but the first TD was a textbook example of the problem: Wade blitzes, is picked up, no other pressure on the QB, enough time for the pattern to develop, D's rotation a step slow, QB makes perfect throw for long score, stadium goes crazy, and you could almost feel the injection of confidence it gave their offense.

 

[sluggo72]

As others have said, a lot comes back to the ability (or not) to get pressure on the QB -- all the more so when you play an aggressive defense, bringing linebackers and safeties. Otherwise, a guy can hit some throws, get in a rhythm, build confidence and end up looking like an All-American...especially with top-quality receivers at his disposal.

I'm going from recollection -- don't have the stomach to watch again -- but the first TD was a textbook example of the problem: Wade blitzes, is picked up, no other pressure on the QB, enough time for the pattern to develop, D's rotation a step slow, QB makes perfect throw for long score, stadium goes crazy, and you could almost feel the injection of confidence it gave their offense.

the first score is linked above for your perusal. Wade getting picked up, and pressure didnt really have anything to do with it. it was a poor scheme, poor execution (2 guys covering the same guy?) all the way around.

 

[BBrown]

I think it's coaching all the way. We have developed guys to go to the NFL back there, guys that are 4 star talents. I don't think it is a talent issue as much as it is a coaching issue, both Pry and Terry Smith are responsible. Pry sends ridiculous blitzes at awful times which does these guys no favors. Pry has about 3 different blitz types and any team worth it's salt has figured them out and throws to the vacated space. On Minny's first TD, when we send Lamont on a blitz, their QB did not hesitate to throw the ball to the vacated space, that's coaching, they knew Taylor would never rotate in time. TCF was clearly coached to think run first, pass second, and it hurt him all game. He would take a step to the line expecting run and watch receivers get behind him all day. Obviously our backfield was told all week this is a "run the ball, ball control offense." Minny decided to not play into our expectations and try to beat us "doing what they do" and actually adjusted. Unlike say a wisconsin, that just runs the ball regardless of what your defense is good at(pry is great in those situations).

Secondly, I really don't understand the technique we train our CB's with. They are constantly "chasing the receivers" with their heads turned away from the ball resulting in two things all the time; 1. We get a lot of terrible PI calls a game, which are deserving, because our CB's are clearly not playing the ball but rather the man. They are oftentimes scattered to get back to the receiver and they make contact before the ball gets there. 2. The receivers win a ton of jump balls and contested catches on us, largely because they know where the ball is and they can time their effort to catch it. Our CB's never get their heads around.

+100.
I think Pry has been getting too much of a "pass" (no pun intended) as well as I think Smith gets it because he was a former player.
Rahne and Limegrover have been taking a lot of abuse and I think they've proven its not them.
Time for Pry and Smith to step up.

 

[BBrown]

It's all due to the blitz-heavy scheme Pry likes. If you blitz and get penetration, it's fine. When you don't, your DBs have to all be studs to make up for it. We saw what happened once Pry gave up on trying to blitz all the time. Minny's offense was generally held in check

True but then I thought PJ Fleck went ultra conservative on the last few series for them.

 

[BBrown]

SCHEME....we have DB's all over the NFL and both Reid and TCF will be there as well. However, year after year after year we allow the career game for some of these QB's.....Ive never seen a defense that no matter who is in the game, not be able to cover a 10 yard slant.

Not the way they are currently playing. They are horrible and I'm being kind.

 

[BBrown]

one more, this is qued up, and as soon as you click it, click stop......to freeze it right at the snap...

View embedded media

as you can see with have 2 coming off the D's LHS, a LBer and a DB. If you watch, 36 flips his hips and immediately looks up the inside receiver, while the S starts to rotate that way.
IMO I think 29 Ozones on this play. I think (but dont know for sure) he has the outside receiver M/M and 36 is to run over to the inside receiver M/M with S help for both to prevent the long play. 29 jumps the inside guy, then 36 heads that way too, leaving the outside guy wide ass open. The S takes a poor angle to the ball, the band starts playing!
We ran this same blitz vs Appy state last year at least 2 x off the top of my head (and I believe some other games as well) We got burned by Appy State with this as well. Need to tear this page out of the play book. too far for the MLB to cover.

Pry can start by tearing every blitz scheme he has out of his book and start over, cause none of them seem to be working or everyone we play knows what they are, what they look like and when they will be coming.
I came away from Sat.'s game being very, very critical of Pry and Terry Smith and nothing I'm reading here or the replay has made me change my mind.

 

[sluggo72]

Pry can start by tearing every blitz scheme he has out of his book and start over, cause none of them seem to be working or everyone we plays knows what they are, what they look like and when they will be coming.
I came away from Sat.'s game being very, very critical of Pry and Terry Smith and nothing I'm reading here or the replay has made me change my mind.

why does Tim Banks get a pass?

 

[Zone-Blitz]

+100.
I think Pry has been getting too much of a "pass" (no pun intended) as well as I think Smith gets it because he was a former player.
Rahne and Limegrover have been taking a lot of abuse and I think they've proven its not them.
Time for Pry and Smith to step up.

Limegrover has done an outstanding job in my opinion. Clifford has a clean pocket more often than not and the line looked a lot better when Cain started getting the carries and finding holes that the others couldn’t

 

[ILLINOISLION]

Limegrover has done an outstanding job in my opinion. Clifford has a clean pocket more often than not and the line looked a lot better when Cain started getting the carries and finding holes that the others couldn’t

The OL would also be helped by going on some quick counts so the D can’t get set as well as not having every single running play go straight up the middle.

 

[drblue1977]

A very confused secondary comprised of slow-footed Smurfs coupled with a Defensive Line that is clearly incapable of getting pressure against equal or better quality opponents.

We’re collectively observing why Sean “Coach Chaos” Spencer and Brett “Clueless” Pry aren’t considered elite positional coaches/coordinators.

What, no RR on your list? Please Add ASAP......................See Minny!

 

[bdgan]

Definitely agree with the last sentence. I notice in other games the DB turns for the ball when he sees the receiver starting to react. Our guys just keep running. It’s also why we only get interceptions when the pass is totally off target

I'm not sure that the technique mattered on Saturday. I recall one long pass into the red zone where we had good coverage but were beat by a perfect throw and catch. But most of Morgan's completed passes were to wide open receivers in spaces vacated by aggressive PSU receivers.

 

[BBrown]

why does Tim Banks get a pass?

Good question. Although he does seem to be getting all the hand me down clothes...if you know what I mean.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't think he's had the best players. Safety has been an ongoing issue for us for a long, long time and spanning more than one staff.
That kid from MD would have been a huge get this past recruiting season.
Brisker looks like he has potential but man is he reckless.
Wade, bless his heart, is just too short. He plays the run well but not so much the pass.

 

[BBrown]

What, no RR on your list? Please Add ASAP......................See Minny!

Yes drblue1977 please see Minny. What you'll find is that RR is not and was not the issue.

 

[danvillenit]

I like Brisker. He is a little undisciplined but he is big and likes to hit.

 

[Still in State College]

one more, this is qued up, and as soon as you click it, click stop......to freeze it right at the snap...

View embedded media

as you can see with have 2 coming off the D's LHS, a LBer and a DB. If you watch, 36 flips his hips and immediately looks up the inside receiver, while the S starts to rotate that way.
IMO I think 29 Ozones on this play. I think (but dont know for sure) he has the outside receiver M/M and 36 is to run over to the inside receiver M/M with S help for both to prevent the long play. 29 jumps the inside guy, then 36 heads that way too, leaving the outside guy wide ass open. The S takes a poor angle to the ball, the band starts playing!
We ran this same blitz vs Appy state last year at least 2 x off the top of my head (and I believe some other games as well) We got burned by Appy State with this as well. Need to tear this page out of the play book. too far for the MLB to cover.

I thought Wade was a little to passive on the blitz. He kind of gave up when the RB slid over. He needs to engage him with the idea of moving the QB off of his spot. He just kind of slowed down and let the RB push him wide.

 

[sluggo72]

I thought Wade was a little to passive on the blitz. He kind of gave up when the RB slid over. He needs to engage him with the idea of moving the QB off of his spot. He just kind of slowed down and let the RB push him wide.

I dont disagree, but on that play, that was the least of our worries. Poor design, poor execution by the back end.

 

[Still in State College]

I dont disagree, but on that play, that was the least of our worries. Poor design, poor execution by the back end.

All very true.

 

[PSUNYGNYY]

Reid has been absolutely horrible since he came back from his injury. He never makes a play on the ball and always has his back to the ball. We have four 4* stars in our secondary so it’s not talent. Scheme is a big part, but our secondary was so passive on Saturday. Let’s not forget our D- line had 0 sacks and 0 TFL. Lots of blame to go around, but as the DC Pry gets the brunt of it and deservedly so.

 

[Jerry]

the first score is linked above for your perusal. Wade getting picked up, and pressure didnt really have anything to do with it. it was a poor scheme, poor execution (2 guys covering the same guy?) all the way around.

Ouch. Watching that again is painful.

I take your point, but the whole point of blitzing your safety is to sack the QB -- or at least get meaningful pressure on him, either on the part of the safety or somewhere else in the rush. When that doesn't happen, vulnerabilities are created, and a good QB can exploit them.

If Wade gets to the QB, or the blitz at least produces enough pressure to either move the guy out of the pocket or force him to change/hurry the throw, I don't think he throws a perfect ball for a TD on that play. But none of this is to argue that the scheme was sound or did not contribute to the result.

 

[BBrown]

What could one not applaud about the (not one, but TWO) QB draws into the middle of the field on the final possession of the first half, when they were working against the clock?

Or the 4 play sequence from 1st and goal that was:

1) Inside give to the TB (the 4th string TRFR Tailback)
2) Inside give to the TB (the 4th string TRFR Tailback)
3) QB keeper

all for a total of three yards, followed by the:

4) Slot fade to the 5-8 WR covered by the 6-3 DB in a tiny field?

When they had huge mismatch options available to them against a defense that was on life support?

As for the fade to Hammler. Well he's made that catch in the past, and didn't the ball bounce off his chest? (not sure but I thought so) the bigger (ha ha) issue is the taller WR's are completely undependable. Shorter.
Maybe they should have done something with Pat F. But I don't have a problem with the fade per se. I probably would have tried it on 1st down though and not 4th.
Its also a glaring area where we missed Noah.

 

[sluggo72]

The Fade? Nope...… Hamler - predictably - ran out of room to the back pylon and the DB just swatted it away (its not like he was gonna' run away from a defender from the 5 yard line.... it wasn't like running a fade from the 20 or 30, where speed can create separation)
.

If it doesn't make sense to run the TB inside power run without Cain..... did Rahne not know that Cain wasn't in there? Did someone forget to tell him? Is that why he ran Devyn Ford, the 4th string TRFR TB, cold off of the bench, on both of those crucial plays?

I thought all our RBs are first stringers?

 

[BBrown]

The Fade? Nope...… Hamler - predictably - ran out of room to the back pylon and the DB just swatted it away (its not like he was gonna' run away from a defender from the 5 yard line.... it wasn't like running a fade from the 20 or 30, where speed can create separation)
.

If it doesn't make sense to run the TB inside power run without Cain..... did Rahne not know that Cain wasn't in there? Did someone forget to tell him? Is that why he ran Devyn Ford, the 4th string TRFR TB, cold off of the bench, on both of those crucial plays?

I found it but yes it does look like the DB gets his hand and knocks the ball away.
But I wouldn't say he "ran out of room". its close but a better pass and its probably a TD.
Still would have had to be a terrific catch by Hammler.
In any case I still would do but just on 1st down not 4th.

And what you said about bringing Ford in has been my main problem with this 4 rb rotation that I've never been a fan of. But I guess its moot cause I think Slade is playing his way to the bench or portal.

 

[ram2020]

I found it but yes it does look like the DB gets his hand and knocks the ball away.
But I wouldn't say he "ran out of room". its close but a better pass and its probably a TD.
Still would have had to be a terrific catch by Hammler.
In any case I still would do but just on 1st down not 4th.

And what you said about bringing Ford in has been my main problem with this 4 rb rotation that I've never been a fan of. But I guess its moot cause I think Slade is playing his way to the bench or portal.

Penn State Db's, notice how the Minny CB slows down when he gets close to the man, turns around to locate the ball, then plays the man through the ball. Our DB's would be 5 yards away from this, run with their hair on fire into the man before the ball gets there, never locate the ball, and get a PI flag every time.

 

[BBrown]

Nope. That's the wrong one.

That's from another drive.... of course, it was also a predictable "no go".....that one you posted was from a drive they (PSU) eventually did score on.... IIRC, on the outside run by Brown, where he went in untouched (also shocking ).

The one in the "4 play sequence" was to the other side of the field.... with similar results (shockingly)

Ok thanks. So obviously we might run that fade a little too much.

 

[royboy]

Maybe

That said, I love Hamler on the slot fade from 20-30 yards plus....... especially if he can get into man coverage. But that’s an entirely different skill set from trying to run a fade inside the 10 (where there is just about 0 opportunity to gain separation, and the play is almost completely reliant on the receiver “out-physical-ing” the DB)

Not to veer too much off-topic here, but Hamler has an amazing ability to catch the low ball, even when covered tightly. He can adjust his body, twist, and get his hands under the ball. Hamler really is a remarkable player and so too is TE Friermuth.

 

[BBrown]

Maybe

That said, I love Hamler on the slot fade from 20-30 yards plus....... especially if he can get into man coverage. But that’s an entirely different skill set from trying to run a fade inside the 10 (where there is just about 0 opportunity to gain separation, and the play is almost completely reliant on the receiver “out-physical-ing” the DB)

Agree. And I wasn't kidding about rather seeing Nick Eury in the RZ than Slade at the very least I'm thinking he can pick up a blitzer.

 

[bvillebaron]

I don’t see a shutdown corner in the bunch. That’s not being critical. There aren’t many of those guys out there and teams like OSU, Bama, LSU, Clemson tend to get them on their rosters.
Tough to defend that quick RPO passing attack when you have to play zone or give a little space. Also safe to say the pass rush has come nowhere close to living up to its preseason billing against decent competition.

Well I think Reid and Fields-Castro both played well in press coverage earlier in the season. Why they played soft zone for most if not all of the game was an absolute mystery to me.