OT: On a keto/high protein/low carb diet?

[SLUPSU]

"Low-carb diet linked to elevated mortality risk: study"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-carb-diet-linked-elevated-mortality-risk-study-233354036.html

 

[tboyer]

Total junk science. Just ignore it. Not that a low-carb diet might not be bad for you, but that study is completely worthless. The problem with diet surveys in general is that correlation is NOT causation. Say people who eat pizza regularly have shorter lifespans -- but they're also more likely to drink soda and smoke cigarettes. People who eat avocados are more likely to watch their weight and do yoga. So it doesn't mean eating pizza will shorten your life span, or that eating avocados will lengthen it. The eating habits are ASSOCIATED with outcomes but are not necessarily causal factors.

The low-carb movement, the awareness of the danger of sugar and grain consumption, is putting a big dent in the profits of Coke, Pepsi and the whole processed food industry. So everyone should fully expect these bogus headlines based on bogus science as these corporations try to steer people back to eating food that makes the most profit.

 

[MJG-90]

How is a study like this even possible? Not enough time has passed since the "fad" began to get enough data. And it mentions high protein too. The actual diet is low carb, moderate protein, high fat -- like 10 / 20 / 70 as the percentage breakdown of calories per macro nutrient.

 

[ImaWright]

Total junk science. Just ignore it. Not that a low-carb diet might not be bad for you, but that study is completely worthless. The problem with diet surveys in general is that correlation is NOT causation. Say people who eat pizza regularly have shorter lifespans -- but they're also more likely to drink soda and smoke cigarettes. People who eat avocados are more likely to watch their weight and do yoga. So it doesn't mean eating pizza will shorten your life span, or that eating avocados will lengthen it. The eating habits are ASSOCIATED with outcomes but are not necessarily causal factors.

The low-carb movement, the awareness of the danger of sugar and grain consumption, is putting a big dent in the profits of Coke, Pepsi and the whole processed food industry. So everyone should fully expect these bogus headlines based on bogus science as these corporations try to steer people back to eating food that makes the most profit.

Can you tell us how, where, and the effect of the body converting protein into glucose? Because you need it in that form for energy. It’s not hard science to conclude that organs working overtime due to a skewed intake of macronutrients would have problems. 55-60% Carbs and 10-15% Protein is recommended. Carbs break down into glucose fairly simply and through a different process than does protein. There is a reason why your body choses to convert protein to glucose as a last resort among macros. Why would you go against your body's natural design?

 

[BBrown]

Total junk science. Just ignore it. Not that a low-carb diet might not be bad for you, but that study is completely worthless. The problem with diet surveys in general is that correlation is NOT causation. Say people who eat pizza regularly have shorter lifespans -- but they're also more likely to drink soda and smoke cigarettes. People who eat avocados are more likely to watch their weight and do yoga. So it doesn't mean eating pizza will shorten your life span, or that eating avocados will lengthen it. The eating habits are ASSOCIATED with outcomes but are not necessarily causal factors.

The low-carb movement, the awareness of the danger of sugar and grain consumption, is putting a big dent in the profits of Coke, Pepsi and the whole processed food industry. So everyone should fully expect these bogus headlines based on bogus science as these corporations try to steer people back to eating food that makes the most profit.

IDK, I usually drink Tequila and have nachos. LOL.

 

[ImaWright]

How is a study like this even possible? Not enough time has passed since the "fad" began to get enough data. And it mentions high protein too. The actual diet is low carb, moderate protein, high fat -- like 10 / 20 / 70 as the percentage breakdown of calories per macro nutrient.

Now low protein and higher fat content is likely less damaging. But high fat diets are generally associated with endurance athletes with a need for more oxidative muscle fibers and training many hours a week. Think Phelps.

 

[MJG-90]

Why would you go against your body's natural design?

The argument is that 50% plus carbs is NOT your body's natural design. No way early humans could possibly consume that amount of carbs per day.

Fat is a better source of energy than carbs. So are ketones.

 

[Limestone_Lion]

Well, I am on the diet. I assure you that I would die way way earlier if I choose to ignore my weight. I am down ~62#'s in exactly 5 months (in 2 days). Started in mid March.
All i know is that has worked wonders for me. Had a checkup today (after bloodwork was requested by doctor to make sure all the heart stuff is good due to the diet) and everything was perfect. I eat so much food on this diet, good food. No starvation, nothing like that at all... Hell, any diet where i can eat bacon, steak, chicken etc. is a diet I will give a try, and it just so happens that this diet works great for me.

 

[MJG-90]

Well, I am on the diet. I assure you that I would die way way earlier if I choose to ignore my weight. I am down ~62#'s in exactly 5 months (in 2 days). Started in mid March.
All i know is that has worked wonders for me. Had a checkup today (after bloodwork was requested by doctor to make sure all the heart stuff is good due to the diet) and everything was perfect. I eat so much food on this diet, good food. No starvation, nothing like that at all... Hell, any diet where i can eat bacon, steak, chicken etc. is a diet I will give a try, and it just so happens that this diet works great for me.

Awesome. I'm not on the keto diet specifically. In 2013 I started reading marksdailyapple.com and then a bunch of related books. I started eating from the perimeter of the grocery store -- cut out grains, processed foods, unhealthy fats and specifically carbs. I dropped 60-70 pounds in about 9 months.

I still follow that blog, though not as regularly. It's shifted toward keto now. I've had my ketones and glucose tested a few times. I've been in the keto zone on some, not all, of those tests. I think if you just eliminate the junk from your diet (and I probably define junk differently than other on this board), you can pretty much eat anytime you are hungry and not gain weight. In 2013, I would often find myself on a 24 hour intermittent fast without even realizing I hadn't eaten anything. That's how satiating high quality fats are when eaten in a proper diet.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, so spare me any lectures. As LL said, it worked for him (her?) and it worked for me. And it's worked for several member of my family and group of friends as well. The best long term diet solution I've ever tried. No yo-yo at all.

 

[Limestone_Lion]

Awesome. I'm not on the keto diet specifically. In 2013 I started reading marksdailyapple.com and then a bunch of related books. I started eating from the perimeter of the grocery store -- cut out grains, processed foods, unhealthy fats and specifically carbs. I dropped 60-70 pounds in about 9 months.

I still follow that blog, though not as regularly. It's shifted toward keto now. I've had my ketones and glucose tested a few times. I've been in the keto zone on some, not all, of those tests. I think if you just eliminate the junk from your diet (and I probably define junk differently than other on this board), you can pretty much eat anytime you are hungry and not gain weight. In 2013, I would often find myself on a 24 hour intermittent fast without even realizing I hadn't eaten anything. That's how satiating high quality fats are when eaten in a proper diet.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, so spare me any lectures. As LL said, it worked for him (her?) and it worked for me. And it's worked for several member of my family and group of friends as well. The best long term diet solution I've ever tried. No yo-yo at all.

Him LOL... and yes i agree. A great resource for me has been the Keto subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/). Tons of info, and lots of people to help with any questions.

And i agree with everything. Once i get to my goal weight, i will switch to what they call maintenance mode. It will allow me to introduce carbs (in moderation obviously).

Only thing i truly miss after switching to this diet is Perogies and Haluski. Otherwise, this diet is perfect for my tastes.

One thing I eat often is Parmesan crusted Chicken. I would highly recommend it. The Parmesan cheese replaces bread crumbs, and it is delicious.

 

[scueng77]

"Low-carb diet linked to elevated mortality risk: study"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/low-carb-diet-linked-elevated-mortality-risk-study-233354036.html

Utter BS.

I've been on this diet simply to get off sugar and carbs (the real bad guys, not fat) I lost 15 lbs and then leveled off...but I'm staying on it. I've never felt better.

 

[tboyer]

A lot of these comments are spot on. You should basically ignore newspaper headlines and do what works for you. If you can lose weight and maintain a healthy weight eating low-carb, then that is almost certainly going to be the best diet for you. Your blood markers and your waistline will tell you if you're on the right track.

If you can maintain a healthy weight eating whole-grain muffins and drinking fruit juice, great -- but most people can't. Most people will get fat eating a carb-based diet -- that's why the U.S. is pretty close to 50% obesity rate in its adult population. All those people didn't get fat from eating butter and eggs and bacon. They got fat drinking soda and orange juice and eating pasta, bread rice and pizza.

I think the thing that so many of us have realized (despite enormous amounts of industry-sponsored propaganda and misinformation) is that carbs are what make us fat. One way or another you have to cut down on sugar and grain-based foods or you will be obese.

Dietary science in the United States is basically a bogus science. It is something akin to Freudian psychology -- it's a bunch of people in armchairs with opinions -- and those armchairs are more often than not paid for by Coke or the sugar growers or Archer Daniels Midland or Proctor and Gamble.

Real science is randomized double-blind studies. What you need to get a drug approved by the FDA is generally a double-blind study. Well that is really hard to do with food --- not impossible, but hard. So the dietary science industry has traditionally been about short cuts -- they publish studies that aren't really random, aren't even single-blind, and don't even attempt to prove causation.

Research in this field is typically a survey of people about their eating habits and their health. Then they run a bunch of correlations and go straight to the newspapers telling people to eat this or that -- olive oil, "whole grains" (whatever the hell that means), almonds, oatmeal -- usually something someone is paying them to push.

In any other scientific field they would be laughed out of the profession. In any other field correlations are considered STARTING POINTS for REAL studies. Or it is understood they are descriptive, NOT prescriptive.

But only in the field of dietary science the correlations are magically turned into conclusions and public policy. Which is how we got to the obesity epidemic -- crappy public policy based on crappy science.

 

[SLUPSU]

I don't have a dog in this hunt as I believe that it is an effective way to diet, I posted because I thought it would generate lively discussion. So I'll play devil's advocate since most seem to thinks the study is BS. I don't think the study is saying don't diet this way, I think it the suggestion/implication is that even if you get to your ideal weight and you stay on the diet for life it could lead to shorter life spans. I don't know exactly why the reasons as the article didn't get into enough detail, so given that, is there evidence to the contrary out there? Again, I'm not arguing about the effectiveness of a keto diet to reduce weight.

 

[MJG-90]

Dietary science in the United States is basically a bogus science.

A lot of the current science was known in the '70's. Except two problems forced the government to add cereal to the food chart:

1. Grains were cheap enough to keep the food stamp program alive. And margarine was much cheaper than butter.

2. Farmers needed a product to sell. So why not high fructose corn syrup? Lots of grains? Cheap and met a need. Though not really healthy.

Think it's a coincidence that Americans started to get fat once the four food groups were taught in school (and everywhere else)? And when whole foods started to morph into franken-foods?

 

[tboyer]

Can you tell us how, where, and the effect of the body converting protein into glucose? Because you need it in that form for energy. It’s not hard science to conclude that organs working overtime due to a skewed intake of macronutrients would have problems. 55-60% Carbs and 10-15% Protein is recommended. Carbs break down into glucose fairly simply and through a different process than does protein. There is a reason why your body choses to convert protein to glucose as a last resort among macros. Why would you go against your body's natural design?

It's just way more complicated than that. Those ratios you mention -- there's no science behind them whatsoever. Everything you've been taught about diet the last 50 years is based on a foundation of crappy and corrupt science.

Re glucose, I was discussing this with someone who runs a lab at Penn and understands it deeply. It is true that your body requires a small amount of glucose for mitochondria, but it can produce that small amount by converting proteins if you're not getting any carbs in your diet. Meanwhile for 95% of your actual energy needs, your muscles can fuel with ketones and so can your brain. In fact she said there are lots of indications that the brain functions better on ketones.

So people can live quite well on a very low carb diet -- as low as 20 grams a day. That may not be optimal but you can totally do it. There are indigenous populations like the Masai in Africa or the Inuit where the diet (pre western food) was very well studied, and these people lived on fat and protein and very little plant material, and they were (at least according to the people who studied them) very healthy, no obesity, no diabetes, no cancer.

The one thing in your comment that makes sense to me is that an excessive intake of protein can strain your system. Too much protein is hard on your liver and kidneys and other organs. And, because your body will convert that protein to glucose, too much protein can prevent you from losing weight.

So I think the general consensus among the more scientific low-carb approaches is that the optimal diet is high fat but not high protein. Extra protein beyond what we need does not benefit us. But if we over-eat fat, the body tends to just throw it away and not store it (as long as we're not eating carbs and raising our blood sugar). This is why obese people can eat 4,000 calories a day of steak and lose weight. But I don't think anybody argues that is a sustainable diet.

Atkins, despite its reputation, is not about gorging on red meat. Atkins is actually a diet very high in vegetables -- but they need to be non-starchy vegetables -- and modest, normal portions of protein -- and typically between 50-150 grams of carbs -- the amount depends on what the individual person can tolerate.

 

[tboyer]

A lot of the current science was known in the '70's. Except two problems forced the government to add cereal to the food chart:

1. Grains were cheap enough to keep the food stamp program alive. And margarine was much cheaper than butter.

2. Farmers needed a product to sell. So why not high fructose corn syrup? Lots of grains? Cheap and met a need. Though not really healthy.

Think it's a coincidence that Americans started to get fat once the four food groups were taught in school (and everywhere else)? And when whole foods started to morph into franken-foods?

It's not a coincidence that the government, prodded by the American Heart Association, campaigned against butter. The AHA was essentially paid to he a marketing arm of Crisco from the 1950s through the 1980s. God knows how many people diet of heart attacks from eating trans fats promoted by the AHA. You'd think the AHA would be so embarrassed they'd get out of the business of recommending diet -- but NO.... Today the AHA still sells its "heart healthy" logo to be stamped on a dreadful assortment of junk food.

Likewise the FDA Food Pyramid and its recommendation that people eat 10 servings of grain per day (TEN!!!). There's a really funny book by Nina Teicholtz that talks about the history of the Food Pyramid -- there were actual scientists on the project but when they came out with their draft report, the Agriculture Secretary, Earl Butz, simply overruled them and told them to recommend 10 servings of grain because that was the Agriculture Department's job -- to promote American wheat and corn.

 

[artsandletters]

Well, I am on the diet. I assure you that I would die way way earlier if I choose to ignore my weight. I am down ~62#'s in exactly 5 months (in 2 days). Started in mid March.
All i know is that has worked wonders for me. Had a checkup today (after bloodwork was requested by doctor to make sure all the heart stuff is good due to the diet) and everything was perfect. I eat so much food on this diet, good food. No starvation, nothing like that at all... Hell, any diet where i can eat bacon, steak, chicken etc. is a diet I will give a try, and it just so happens that this diet works great for me.

What kind of diet are you on, Limey? Thanks.

 

[ImaWright]

It's just way more complicated than that. Those ratios you mention -- there's no science behind them whatsoever. Everything you've been taught about diet the last 50 years is based on a foundation of crappy and corrupt science.

Re glucose, I was discussing this with someone who runs a lab at Penn and understands it deeply. It is true that your body requires a small amount of glucose for mitochondria, but it can produce that small amount by converting proteins if you're not getting any carbs in your diet. Meanwhile for 95% of your actual energy needs, your muscles can fuel with ketones and so can your brain. In fact she said there are lots of indications that the brain functions better on ketones.

So people can live quite well on a very low carb diet -- as low as 20 grams a day. That may not be optimal but you can totally do it. There are indigenous populations like the Masai in Africa or the Inuit where the diet (pre western food) was very well studied, and these people lived on fat and protein and very little plant material, and they were (at least according to the people who studied them) very healthy, no obesity, no diabetes, no cancer.

The one thing in your comment that makes sense to me is that an excessive intake of protein can strain your system. Too much protein is hard on your liver and kidneys and other organs. And, because your body will convert that protein to glucose, too much protein can prevent you from losing weight.

So I think the general consensus among the more scientific low-carb approaches is that the optimal diet is high fat but not high protein. Extra protein beyond what we need does not benefit us. But if we over-eat fat, the body tends to just throw it away and not store it (as long as we're not eating carbs and raising our blood sugar). This is why obese people can eat 4,000 calories a day of steak and lose weight. But I don't think anybody argues that is a sustainable diet.

Atkins, despite its reputation, is not about gorging on red meat. Atkins is actually a diet very high in vegetables -- but they need to be non-starchy vegetables -- and modest, normal portions of protein -- and typically between 50-150 grams of carbs -- the amount depends on what the individual person can tolerate.

I am not fixed to those ratios.

My initial post was simply stating that too much protein ends up converted to fat at an eventual cost to your liver and kidneys. That is a chronic process so it doesn’t occur overnight and perhaps you can mitigate the damage to those organs by going to this maintenance phase of the diet.

But the best advice you provided was about shopping the outside of the grocery store. My diet is not even close to perfect. It is my Achilles heel because I train hard but just really like some food that I know is not the best option for me. But I train hard and that does mitigate some of those choices if I don’t go crazy over them.

I do think quite a bit of this is your genetic predisposition to response to training and diet. I add muscle when I drive by the gym but I can add fat when I don’t train as consistently. That has changed for me over the years. In my 20s and 30s I could eat anything I want and stay at 6 – 8% body fat. Now, I have to work hard and moderate some of those things I really like to eat to stay where I want to be which is a bit higher.

Everyone’s response is different. Everyone’s tolerance and affinity for certain things are different. I prefer to train hard, eat OK, and not follow fad diets. I think as long as someone is reasonably informed, they should do what works for them and what they are comfortable doing from a consistency and risk standpoint.

 

[MJG-90]

There's a really funny book by Nina Teicholtz that talks about the history of the Food Pyramid -- there were actual scientists on the project but when they came out with their draft report, the Agriculture Secretary, Earl Butz, simply overruled them and told them to recommend 10 servings of grain because that was the Agriculture Department's job -- to promote American wheat and corn.

I’m not familiar. I read this book though. Similar story.

Death by Food Pyramid: How Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics and Shady Special Interests Have Ruined Our Health Amazon product ASIN 0984755128

 

[scueng77]

Keto is high fat, medium protein, low carbs.

 

[ImaWright]

I’m not familiar. I read this book though. Similar story.

Death by Food Pyramid: How Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics and Shady Special Interests Have Ruined Our Health

View embedded media

That and sitting on our asses to make a living. Sedentary lifestyles even if you do an hour of training a day are not healthy. Get up. Move. Don’t stare at the screen too long if you can. But yes, the push of processed foods, pre-packaged meals (other than Clean Eatz and similar companies), sugary drinks, and fast food have done some major damage.

 

[Nitwit]

This has been a very informative thread. For me personally I found that I lost weight and got to my ideal weight just by eating less and exercising more. But I didn’t go on any deliberate program. When I retired I stopped eating lunches out (even takeout), and less business travel meant fewer big dinners as well. I gradually dropped 30 pounds and leveled off at my ideal weight. I now snack on fresh fruit, drink more water, and try to walk, bike ride, or play golf when I can. I mostly cut out added sugars and buy “no sugar added” products - jelly, apple butter, ketchup, ice cream, puddings, and even cookies to quench my sweet tooth and give myself a treat once a day. Whatever works best for you seems to be the best choice. The only downside is that all my old clothes no longer fit - used to be an xl, now a medium.

 

[ralphster]

FWIW, a summary of all of the tips for how to live a long and healthy life, from my 47 years of observation:

1) eat until you are 80% full, then STOP; don't be fat
2) exercise moderately, EVERY DAY, to the point where you are at least a bit winded
3) eat mostly things you can recognize as plants, and minimize animal products
4) eat real food prepared by humans in a kitchen and not a factory, without hormones/antibiotics/preservatives (avoid premade, processed crap)
5) don't smoke; don't drink much
6) have close friends and family
7) maintain a purpose in life, even after retirement
8) floss

 

[demlion]

Can you tell us how, where, and the effect of the body converting protein into glucose? Because you need it in that form for energy. It’s not hard science to conclude that organs working overtime due to a skewed intake of macronutrients would have problems. 55-60% Carbs and 10-15% Protein is recommended. Carbs break down into glucose fairly simply and through a different process than does protein. There is a reason why your body choses to convert protein to glucose as a last resort among macros. Why would you go against your body's natural design?

Um, have you noticed the rate of diabetes? That was achieved with the 55 % carbs standard in place. Way too much sugar. Its poison. Tax it and make it into car fuel.

 

[CF LION]

I’ve been eating like a caveman for 9 months. Went from 210 pounds down to 190 (I’m 6’-0”) where it seems my body has hit equilibrium. I haven’t lost any weight in about two months now, so I think I’m where my body wants to be.

I feel healthier now than I did 20 years ago.

It made sense to me that the human body was designed to be nourished by foods that could be harvested by a caveman.

 

[Nitwit]

 

[manatree]

Epidemiology studies are notioriously problematic, especially those linked to diets. Unless you have your human subjects in a controlled environment 24/7 you are relying self-reporting. We humans are notoriously 'inaccurate' when it comes to self-reporting.

 

[marisa45]

I went on that diet for like 2 months, got really dizzy so I went to the doctor. My cholesterol, red blood count and triglycerides were off the charts. Not that it would happen to everyone, but closely monitor your numbers on that diet.........it could easily be deadly for some people. Your basically substituting fat for carbs and not everyone's body is able to handle it.

I will say this.......I lost like 30 pounds in 4 weeks.

 

[MJG-90]

You shouldn’t go on that diet day one without preparing your body. There are plenty of resources that can guide you.

 

[Limestone_Lion]

What kind of diet are you on, Limey? Thanks.

Strict keto. 20g of carbs maximum. I use an online calculator that reddit provided and use a 35% deficit and go from there.

 

[Limestone_Lion]

I went on that diet for like 2 months, got really dizzy so I went to the doctor. My cholesterol, red blood count and triglycerides were off the charts. Not that it would happen to everyone, but closely monitor your numbers on that diet.........it could easily be deadly for some people. Your basically substituting fat for carbs and not everyone's body is able to handle it.

I will say this.......I lost like 30 pounds in 4 weeks.

I never had those problems, but the people that do usually miss out on their electrolytes. I take a multivitamin and 300mg of potassium at night to cope with that (I got really bad cramps initially in my legs). This solved that issue.

And as always, I didn't but fact remains, that before starting any diet, you should consult your doctor beforehand

 

[T J]

How is a study like this even possible? Not enough time has passed since the "fad" began to get enough data. And it mentions high protein too. The actual diet is low carb, moderate protein, high fat -- like 10 / 20 / 70 as the percentage breakdown of calories per macro nutrient.

Correct.

They are mixing apples and oranges and combining terms without understanding.

Their survey includes up to 40% energy from carbohydrates, which by modern analysis is not low carb.

For the study, under 40 percent of energy intake from carbohydrates qualifies as a low-carb regimen

Further, besides not controlling the macro quantities to levels supported by the modern research, they have no control for quantities of key items like good carbs vs bad carbs, good proteins vs bad proteins or good fats vs bad fats.

Food is a key way of communicating with our body. With every spoonful we eat, we send messages on how we want our bodies to respond. As such, lack of control over critical factors render this a meaningless jumble of bad information being manipulated for an agenda.

This “study” smacks of the kind of anti-science and junk science put out by the US Govt and ignorant activist groups for decades. They pressed people and the food industries to adopt food choices that accelerated obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes, diabetes and early death.

Such generalities, without understanding, are like emotionally howling at the moon and falsely expecting rational results.
​

 

[artsandletters]

FWIW, a summary of all of the tips for how to live a long and healthy life, from my 47 years of observation:

1) eat until you are 80% full, then STOP; don't be fat
2) exercise moderately, EVERY DAY, to the point where you are at least a bit winded
3) eat mostly things you can recognize as plants, and minimize animal products
4) eat real food prepared by humans in a kitchen and not a factory, without hormones/antibiotics/preservatives (avoid premade, processed crap)
5) don't smoke; don't drink much
6) have close friends and family
7) maintain a purpose in life, even after retirement
8) floss

Sorry to learn about your 47 years of celibacy.

 

[Lion Lineage]

Then there’s the Rosetans and you begin to think maybe the whole eat this way and not that way is a bit overrated:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/73260

 

[Limestone_Lion]

Did you use the online keto diet that asks questions then gives you a 60 day menu, all for $29.90?

No. Best spot to gain info is the reddit keto page I shared above. I'm not super active on that page but you can find me there (same handle as here) and message me if you have any specific questions.

There is a keto calculator in the sidebar on the reddit page. Just type your age height and weight, and select sedentary, and it will give you what macros you should follow. 20g max a day for carbs for weight loss. Protein is a goal, you always want to hit it or exceed, and fat is a soft goal. Just est fat to fill full and don't go crazy.
That site has a ton of feel good stories with some heavy people losing hundreds of pounds and getting control of their lives, really incredible

 

[T J]

For info purposes only. Not intended to diagnose, cure or treat disease.
Don’t make changes to your healthcare plans without consulting your knowledgeable medical practitioner.

Some may find this information interesting.

Mark Hyman, MD, is Director for the Cleveland Clinic Center for Functional Medicine, Chairman of the Institute for Functional Medicine and founder of The UltraWellness Center.​

 

[ralphster]

Sorry to learn about your 47 years of celibacy.

Did I say I actually followed my own advice?