OT: CNBC gives Pittsburgh a D+ in suitability for the home of Amazon's second U.S. headquarters.

[BobPSU92]

See the link below. No, yellow seats were not cited as a reason. They should have been, but weren't.

From the article:

"If Amazon plans to stick to the stated criteria for its coveted second headquarters location, it may want to look south, at least according to a new CNBC analysis using data from our 2017 America's Top States for Business study and the Census Bureau.

The analysis gives high grades to a number of southern cities, including Atlanta, Raleigh, Charlotte and Greensboro-High Point, North Carolina. Other strong contenders are within the Washington, D.C., area, including Northern Virginia; and Austin, Texas. All have strong workforces, reasonably good economies and business-friendly regulations."

And,

"Other cities that have attracted attention with their bids may also have a hard time measuring up. Detroit, which is reported to have developed its bid in cooperation with neighboring Windsor, Ontario, nonetheless rates a C+. The local economy has improved considerably since the city's 2013 bankruptcy, but it is not quite there yet.

It is a similar story for Pittsburgh, which has performed well in other studies, including the Moody's analysis. But our grade is a D+, due in large part to Pennsylvania's relatively stagnant economy."

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/these-cities-may-win-war-for-amazons-new-headquarters.html

I suspect this article could generate a lot of . Then again, we probably shouldn't be surprised (by Pittsburgh's rating, but also by the that results).

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Count me as one of numerous Pittsburghers who want nothing to do with Amazon. Someone is going to pay them a billion dollars to screw up their city, and I hope it isn't us.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Its all a big scam anyway. No way will HQ2 have 50,000 jobs. I don't know of any company that employs 50,000 at its headquarters, let alone a secondary HQ. And this comp[any is heavily computerized and automated. Just a lie to get better tax incentives. Lucky to have 10-15,000 employees there.

Further, it is going to the DC area, somewhere within 50-75 miles. Bezo, CEO and principle shareholder, owns the Wash Post. He recently bought a $23 million dollar home in DC. And it is believed he wants to run for POTUS someday. He wants to be in DC so he can build contacts and influence/lobby government to his advantage.

The whole gambit is about getting DC or nearby cities to give him a good deal. But it will be somewhere in that area.

But it is interesting that Pittsburgh was rated so low when others have rated them in the top five and one rated them as best choice. The biggest advantage that a smaller city like the 'burgh would be that Amazon would be a huge fish in a small pond. In a small pond, they could demand all sorts of stuff to their advantage. In places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, they would be just another player.

 

[LemonEars]

See the link below. No, yellow seats were not cited as a reason. They should have been, but weren't.

From the article:

"If Amazon plans to stick to the stated criteria for its coveted second headquarters location, it may want to look south, at least according to a new CNBC analysis using data from our 2017 America's Top States for Business study and the Census Bureau.

The analysis gives high grades to a number of southern cities, including Atlanta, Raleigh, Charlotte and Greensboro-High Point, North Carolina. Other strong contenders are within the Washington, D.C., area, including Northern Virginia; and Austin, Texas. All have strong workforces, reasonably good economies and business-friendly regulations."

And,

"Other cities that have attracted attention with their bids may also have a hard time measuring up. Detroit, which is reported to have developed its bid in cooperation with neighboring Windsor, Ontario, nonetheless rates a C+. The local economy has improved considerably since the city's 2013 bankruptcy, but it is not quite there yet.

It is a similar story for Pittsburgh, which has performed well in other studies, including the Moody's analysis. But our grade is a D+, due in large part to Pennsylvania's relatively stagnant economy."

I suspect this article could generate a lot of . Then again, we probably shouldn't be surprised (by Pittsburgh's rating, but also by the that results).

I'm sure a key issue for Amazon will be attracting talented workers to the new location. Pittsburgh has one of the worst climates in the country -- hot, humid summers -- little sun in a dreary winter. Also, Pittsburgh has a horrible transportation system with the roads being pothole filled mazes with miserable traffic jams being the rule. The weather and the road system is enough to cause Amazon to reject Pittsburgh.

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

But it is interesting that Pittsburgh was rated so low when others have rated them in the top five and one rated them as best choice. The biggest advantage that a smaller city like the 'burgh would be that Amazon would be a huge fish in a small pond. In a small pond, they could demand all sorts of stuff to their advantage. In places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, they would be just another player.

As LE has suggested, the pollsters seemed to feel that Pittsburgh lacks the kind of mass transit infrastructure that Amazon is looking for.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

All very good reasons for rejecting us. Let's hope they are listening.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Its all a big scam anyway. No way will HQ2 have 50,000 jobs. I don't know of any company that employs 50,000 at its headquarters, let alone a secondary HQ. And this comp[any is heavily computerized and automated. Just a lie to get better tax incentives. Lucky to have 10-15,000 employees there.

Further, it is going to the DC area, somewhere within 50-75 miles. Bezo, CEO and principle shareholder, owns the Wash Post. He recently bought a $23 million dollar home in DC. And it is believed he wants to run for POTUS someday. He wants to be in DC so he can build contacts and influence/lobby government to his advantage.

The whole gambit is about getting DC or nearby cities to give him a good deal. But it will be somewhere in that area.

But it is interesting that Pittsburgh was rated so low when others have rated them in the top five and one rated them as best choice. The biggest advantage that a smaller city like the 'burgh would be that Amazon would be a huge fish in a small pond. In a small pond, they could demand all sorts of stuff to their advantage. In places like NYC, Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, they would be just another player.

Live in NoVA - no thanks, unless he's willing to expand and fix the infrastructure. In Loudoun County, it's at least 10 years behind where the population is. Brand new schools are already overcrowded too.

 

[JR4PSU]

See the link below. No, yellow seats were not cited as a reason. They should have been, but weren't.

From the article:

"If Amazon plans to stick to the stated criteria for its coveted second headquarters location, it may want to look south, at least according to a new CNBC analysis using data from our 2017 America's Top States for Business study and the Census Bureau.

The analysis gives high grades to a number of southern cities, including Atlanta, Raleigh, Charlotte and Greensboro-High Point, North Carolina. Other strong contenders are within the Washington, D.C., area, including Northern Virginia; and Austin, Texas. All have strong workforces, reasonably good economies and business-friendly regulations."

And,

"Other cities that have attracted attention with their bids may also have a hard time measuring up. Detroit, which is reported to have developed its bid in cooperation with neighboring Windsor, Ontario, nonetheless rates a C+. The local economy has improved considerably since the city's 2013 bankruptcy, but it is not quite there yet.

It is a similar story for Pittsburgh, which has performed well in other studies, including the Moody's analysis. But our grade is a D+, due in large part to Pennsylvania's relatively stagnant economy."

I suspect this article could generate a lot of . Then again, we probably shouldn't be surprised (by Pittsburgh's rating, but also by the that results).

Where's the link?

 

[BobPSU92]

Where's the link?

Sorry. I was so fixated with that I forgot to include it. Fixed. See the first post.

 

[GreggK]

As a NYer I want nothing to do with Amazon, but let me say, that list is total BS.

NY gets an F for talent? Apparently they used a "Per Capita" list to determine this. On those lists, a place like Madison Wisconsin rates higher, but considering the NY, NJ Conn area has about 23 Million People, there are MANY more graduates than in a place like Denver or Seattle.

"Stability" seems to be a judgement call to me as does location.

 

[michnittlion]

What a dumb article. New York is an "F" on both stability and talent? Huh? NYC has to have talent - just by virtue of sheer numbers!

 

[fairgambit]

The Brookings Institute would appear to disagree with CNBC. Below is a link to their report of just 2 months ago. The article points out that there is still work to be done, and I am concerned about the leadership of the current mayor, Bill Peduto, who I consider 2nd rate. Still, the city is well positioned as a technology leader and the future is bright.

"Brookings just released a report on Pittsburgh’s innovation economy that drives this point home. The city’s current position—as a center of world-class research institutions, technology-intense manufacturing, and high-skill workers—is the result of a decades-long process that began in small, niche research labs at Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh and has grown organically into region-wide competencies, now attracting investments from major firms such as Google, Uber, and GE."

"Pittsburgh embodies a new growth model. The city’s current position is the result of quiet leadership from across the public, private, and civic sectors, by people who understood the need to move away from a sole reliance on heavy industry, and developed the robust innovation ecosystem powering today’s growth. Up to this point, focusing on developing technological strengths has put Pittsburgh among the thirty or so global cities that are positioned as leaders in next-generation technologies."

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/metr...7/09/25/why-the-future-looks-like-pittsburgh/

 

[LurkerLazarus]

As an attorney, you likely know far more about city government and how it works, than I do, Fair. I'm surprised you're down on Peduto, though. From a suburban perspective he seems to be doing better than most of the mayors I can remember.

 

[JBDLion]

New York is an "F" on both stability and talent? Huh?

Well it will be flooded when the ice caps melt, so that obviously lowered the stability rating.

 

[LemonEars]

As an attorney, you likely know far more about city government and how it works, than I do, Fair. I'm surprised you're down on Peduto, though. From a suburban perspective he seems to be doing better than most of the mayors I can remember.

Besides bad roads and gloomy weather, another problem with Pittsburgh is poison drinking water. Pittsburgh has been governed for many decades by do-nothing political hacks like Peduto. The infrastructure is in shambles.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Eh, you're a bit over the top now. All older big cities are governed by political hacks, for the most part. Peduto actually was not the choice of the establishment, so he doesn't quite fit into that description. He may or may not be a hack, but he's not an old-school "political hack".

And really, you don't seem very objective in describing this city. It's not 1935 anymore. Aside from Oakland, perhaps, Pittsburgh's a great place.

 

[zwick19050]

Count me as one of numerous Pittsburghers who want nothing to do with Amazon. Someone is going to pay them a billion dollars to screw up their city, and I hope it isn't us.

Philly is already screwed up.

 

[CoastFan]

Its all a big scam anyway. No way will HQ2 have 50,000 jobs. I don't know of any company that employs 50,000 at its headquarters,

Amazon is well on its way to having a projected 70,000+ employees in Seattle. If one hasn't been to Seattle in several years, it is very eye-opening to see the new construction. The attached link from this summer gives an overview of the white hot construction going on here, largely due to Amazon.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...om-surges-to-new-record-with-no-end-in-sight/

 

[fairgambit]

As an attorney, you likely know far more about city government and how it works, than I do, Fair. I'm surprised you're down on Peduto, though. From a suburban perspective he seems to be doing better than most of the mayors I can remember.

I am not a city resident, and my law office is in the suburbs, but I do spend a lot of time in the city. I tend to be a centrist, splitting my vote in most elections. That said, Peduto is too far left for my tastes.

 

[psuro]

They gave Xanadu by the Confluence a D+?????

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I am not a city resident, and my law office is in the suburbs, but I do spend a lot of time in the city. I tend to be a centrist, splitting my vote in most elections. That said, Peduto is too far left for my tastes.

He's definitely well left of center, no doubt. However, when you look at the misfits that have held that office in the last generation (Sophie, Luke, Idiot Bob O'Connor etc) he seems much more competent than I'm used to seeing.

 

[fairgambit]

Besides bad roads and gloomy weather, another problem with Pittsburgh is poison drinking water. Pittsburgh has been governed for many decades by do-nothing political hacks like Peduto. The infrastructure is in shambles.

Infrastructure is not a Pittsburgh problem. It's a national problem. Like most large cities, Pittsburgh has work to be done, but to say the "infrastructure is in shambles" does not square with reality.

 

[LemonEars]

Infrastructure is not a Pittsburgh problem. It's a national problem. Like most large cities, Pittsburgh has work to be done, but to say the "infrastructure is in shambles" does not square with reality.

Boil water advisories every few weeks, overflow sewage running into the rivers, highway flooding nearly every time it rains, horrific parking problems. Sounds like infrastructure shambles to me. Maybe most other cities are in the same boat but it isn't a nice boat. Look for Amazon to pick a relatively new city surrounded by lots of rural area.

 

[PennState1997]

Infrastructure is not a Pittsburgh problem. It's a national problem. Like most large cities, Pittsburgh has work to be done, but to say the "infrastructure is in shambles" does not square with reality.

I think the overall infrastructure in Pittsburgh from a public transportation viewpoint is poor. Mostly due to geography but it's tough to get from point A to point B in any reasonable time due to rivers, hills, tunnels etc.

 

[zwick19050]

Funny how all the liberal cities that support high taxes are giving AMZN tax breaks.

I guess REaganomics works.

 

[Lion84]

Amazon is well on its way to having a projected 70,000+ employees in Seattle. If one hasn't been to Seattle in several years, it is very eye-opening to see the new construction. The attached link from this summer gives an overview of the white hot construction going on here, largely due to Amazon.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...om-surges-to-new-record-with-no-end-in-sight/

I was in Seattle this spring for the first time in a few years and I have never seen so many tower cranes before in one place - someone said it is the most of any US city right now and I believe it. Nice city but very dreary with all the rain.

 

[fairgambit]

Boil water advisories every few weeks, overflow sewage running into the rivers, highway flooding nearly every time it rains, horrific parking problems. Sounds like infrastructure shambles to me. Maybe most other cities are in the same boat but it isn't a nice boat. Look for Amazon to pick a relatively new city surrounded by lots of rural area.

You have an anti-Pittsburgh bias and that's fine. It's obvious to anyone who reads your posts. Some may say I have a pro-Pittsburgh bias, and I do, but I try to offer objective material in support of my positions as I did with the Brookings Institute article earlier in this thread. I have also offered criticism as warranted, as I did in this thread where I called Peduto 2nd rate and agreed that Pittsburgh has work to be done on infrastructure. It is not the 1st time I have been critical of the city. I seldom put anyone on "ignore" because I welcome objective opposing views on any topic. Your Pittsburgh posts are anything but that. Rather than waste my time replying, I will put you on ignore and avoid the temptation. Peace.

 

[T J]

I think the overall infrastructure in Pittsburgh from a public transportation viewpoint is poor. Mostly due to geography but it's tough to get from point A to point B in any reasonable time due to rivers, hills, tunnels etc.

Would have to question Pittsburgh as a link for air transport traffic. Historically, flying through Pittsburgh in the winter tended to mean an above average amount of delayed flights and cancelled flights, due to weather.

Whether the weather was the prime issue would need to be addressed, for an air transportation dependent company.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Boil water advisories every few weeks, overflow sewage running into the rivers, highway flooding nearly every time it rains, horrific parking problems. Sounds like infrastructure shambles to me. Maybe most other cities are in the same boat but it isn't a nice boat. Look for Amazon to pick a relatively new city surrounded by lots of rural area.

Dude, you're making yourself look stupid now. Stop before the damage can't be undone, and you wind up being lumped in the same sentence with others that you don't want to be associated with. Who shall remain nameless, for now.

If you're going to have an inherent bias, at least try to disguise it a little bit.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Would have to question Pittsburgh as a link for air transport traffic. Historically, flying through Pittsburgh in the winter tended to mean an above average amount of delayed flights and cancelled flights, due to weather.

Whether the weather was the prime issue would need to be addressed, for an air transportation dependent company.

Actually, it's not too bad. The air transportation system is viewed as a positive, because the airport is oversized since US Airways pulled out, and there's a lot of room to absorb all of Amazon's air traffic. Pittsburgh's weather delay rate is nowhere near as bad as Chicago's, for example, and Pittsburgh's been a bail-out zone for flights when bad weather has crippled other airports.

Interestingly, they landed a daily nonstop to Seattle just last week. I imagine that won't last if/when Amazon goes elsewhere.

 

[fairgambit]

I think the overall infrastructure in Pittsburgh from a public transportation viewpoint is poor. Mostly due to geography but it's tough to get from point A to point B in any reasonable time due to rivers, hills, tunnels etc.

I will disagree. I live almost 20 miles from the city. This morning I had a Petition I had to file in the City-County Building. I left my home at 8:35, drove to the city during the end of rush hour, parked my car, filed the Petition, walked 2 blocks on another errand, returned to my car, and drove to my office which is 10 miles from downtown. The total time expended was 1 hour and 10 minutes. That experience is not unusual for me and it is one reason I located my office outside the city. Getting in, out, and round about, is relatively easy.

Now, that is my experience, but here is a 4 month old article from "Smartasset" that ranks Pittsburgh as the 8th best city for Public Transportation.
https://smartasset.com/mortgage/best-cities-for-public-transportation
8. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, public transportation commuters in Pittsburgh spend an average of 32 minutes traveling to work, the 11th-fastest transit commute time of the 136 cities in our analysis. That is also just nine minutes slower that the average commute time for drivers, the fifth-smallest difference.
The majority of transit riders in Pittsburgh use buses. Bus trips account for about 180,000 of 214,000 riders on a typical weekday. Light rail (known as “the T”), which runs underground in downtown Pittsburgh and above ground in outlying areas, accounts for about 28,000 rides per day.

Here is an older (2008) Forbes article that ranks Pittsburgh as 5th best for Commuters.
https://www.forbes.com/2008/04/24/cities-commute-fuel-forbeslife-cx_mw_0424realestate2_slide.html
No. 5: Pittsburgh, Pa.
Ten percent of commuters get to work by some method other than driving, which helps keep congestion to one of the lowest levels in the country. Those who drive face annual delays of only 16 hours. That's the lowest delay per traveler of any city with over a million commuters. Still, some people are driving a long way from the exurbs, with 6.5% of commuters spending an hour or more en route, the highest figure of any city in the top 10 best commutes.

This Inc. article on the 3 best cities for millennials to work (Pittsburgh is 2nd) says this:
2. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Pittsburgh has one of the largest public transportation systems in America and it's used more so by it's resident compared to other cities, but this shouldn't be a cause for concern. That's because Pittsburgh offers the 11th fastest public transit system in the country.

https://www.inc.com/brian-roberts/this-study-analyzed-3500-cities-in-the-us-to-find-.html

 

[Cosmos]

I was in Seattle this spring for the first time in a few years and I have never seen so many tower cranes before in one place - someone said it is the most of any US city right now and I believe it. Nice city but very dreary with all the rain.

Been awhile for me. Last time I was in Seattle was 1995. That said, funny how despite all that "Amazonian growth" Seattle is still smaller than Ft. Worth and El Paso. Things that make you go hmm.

http://www.city-data.com/top1.html

Back to the discussion at hand, when state and local governments offer companies tax breaks guess who loses. That's right, John Q. Property Owner. Governments don't cut expenditures. Governments are constantly expanding. So when someone like Amazon holds a local government ransom you can expect your property tax bill to increase. I've experienced it here in Dal-ass. And it does not effect just one county. It effects the whole surrounding area. All communities within commuter distance are at risk. I wouldn't wish Amazon on my worst enemy. Not to mention Jeff Bezos' f_cked up politics, as manifested by the WaPo. He's an idealist. Someday he'll wake up to discover that borders matter. So long as natural resources are finite this much is true.

I'll step down off my soapbox now. Thanks for tolerating.

 

[Raffycorn]

Pittsburgh's public transportation infrastructure isn't as good as Philly's, Washington's or New York's, but it's pretty well-covered and reliable if you live in the city or the inner suburbs. The sites talked about for the Amazon proposal - Uptown at the Civic Arena site, Almono in Hazelwood, the Strip District or even East Liberty are all well-covered by different types of mass transit or have potential expansion to those areas in the pipeline. Sure, public transportation is an issue if you're way out in Burgettstown or Cranberry, but I don't think Amazon would find areas that far away from the urban core to be too appealing anyway for their headquarters.

If Seattle is any indication, Amazon likes to be in more urban environments because they're more attractive workplaces for the younger workforce they're recruiting - and that bears out with other tech companies in Pittsburgh like Google, Apple, Facebook, Intel, and even Amazon's current presence on the South Side are all in denser parts of the city proper.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

You have an anti-Pittsburgh bias and that's fine. It's obvious to anyone who reads your posts. Some may say I have a pro-Pittsburgh bias, and I do, but I try to offer objective material in support of my positions as I did with the Brookings Institute article earlier in this thread. I have also offered criticism as warranted, as I did in this thread where I called Peduto 2nd rate and agreed that Pittsburgh has work to be done on infrastructure. It is not the 1st time I have been critical of the city. I seldom put anyone on "ignore" because I welcome objective opposing views on any topic. Your Pittsburgh posts are anything but that. Rather than waste my time replying, I will put you on ignore and avoid the temptation. Peace.

I live in the inner suburbs as well and work in the City. We have had some real second-raters as Mayor. Sophie was actually pretty good. Smurphy, the Boy Wonder and Peduto are/were all terrible. Bob O'Connor had a chance to be very, very good - unfortunately for him and the City, he got sick and passed away.

No thanks to Amazon. They'll come in an get a zillion dollars worth of tax breaks, which they need like a hole in the head. The real estate market will get priced out for anybody except trillionaires. And as was said, no way in hell are they going to employ 50k at a secondary headquarters. The biggest private employer in the State is UPMC and they have 70k employees - but they are spread out from Erie to Wellsboro to Lancaster. By no means are they all in Pittsburgh and Allegheny County.

Amazon is a Peduto ego trip and has NO SHOT. Same as Pittsburgh putting in a bid to host the Olympics - ain't happening.

 

[Raffycorn]

I live in the inner suburbs as well and work in the City. We have had some real second-raters as Mayor. Sophie was actually pretty good. Smurphy, the Boy Wonder and Peduto are/were all terrible. Bob O'Connor had a chance to be very, very good - unfortunately for him and the City, he got sick and passed away.

No thanks to Amazon. They'll come in an get a zillion dollars worth of tax breaks, which they need like a hole in the head. The real estate market will get priced out for anybody except trillionaires. And as was said, no way in hell are they going to employ 50k at a secondary headquarters. The biggest private employer in the State is UPMC and they have 70k employees - but they are spread out from Erie to Wellsboro to Lancaster. By no means are they all in Pittsburgh and Allegheny County.

Amazon is a Peduto ego trip and has NO SHOT. Same as Pittsburgh putting in a bid to host the Olympics - ain't happening.

Pittsburgh never submitted a bid for the 2024 Olympics - they were among the 30 or so cities invited to bid for the games, but decided against putting together a proposal.

I do agree with you on the long-term effects of Amazon in Pittsburgh. I'd much rather they go to a city like Philadelphia where Pittsburgh can potentially absorb some of the downstream benefits without the downsides.

 

[CoastFan]

Been awhile for me. Last time I was in Seattle was 1995. That said, funny how despite all that "Amazonian growth" Seattle is still smaller than Ft. Worth and El Paso. Things that make you go hmm.

http://www.city-data.com/top1.html

Back to the discussion at hand, when state and local governments offer companies tax breaks guess who loses. That's right, John Q. Property Owner. Governments don't cut expenditures. Governments are constantly expanding. So when someone like Amazon holds a local government ransom you can expect your property tax bill to increase. I've experienced it here in Dal-ass. And it does not effect just one county. It effects the whole surrounding area. All communities within commuter distance are at risk. I wouldn't wish Amazon on my worst enemy. Not to mention Jeff Bezos' f_cked up politics, as manifested by the WaPo. He's an idealist. Someday he'll wake up to discover that borders matter. So long as natural resources are finite this much is true.

I'll step down off my soapbox now. Thanks for tolerating.

The growth fueled by Amazon and others is by no means a panacea for everyone. The prices for homes and rents are starting to close the gap with San Francisco. Just as Microsoft has driven prices through the roof in the Eastern suburbs of Bellevue, Kirkland, Redmond, Woodenville and Issaquah, so too is Amazon driving those prices ever upwards in the city and for those commuting from the north and south.
The roads are getting more packed everyday. The greater Seattle metropolitan area is now experiencing a net population growth of about 1000 people per week. The infrastructure is being overwhelmed.
As far as the population of the city itself, that will always be limited due to its geographic size, much like the population of San Francisco is limited. Seattle has 83.8 square miles. Ft. Worth has 349.2 square miles. Sunbelt cities such as San Antonio and Phoenix have 465 and 517 square miles respectively.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I typically don't speak ill of the dead (although that will change once some of our illustrious BOT members deservedly croak), but FC Lion, you have a much higher opinion of one of the dead former mayors than I did, that's for sure.

 

[pandaczar12]

Amazon probably read the panther lair and lost interest in the city.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I typically don't speak ill of the dead (although that will change once some of our illustrious BOT members deservedly croak), but FC Lion, you have a much higher opinion of one of the dead former mayors than I did, that's for sure.

That's OK, there are a lot of people didn't like Sophie or Bob either.

The worst of all time had to be Wonderboy. The dude approached running a major city like he was Freshman Class President. The City was being raped and pillaged from all sides and the goof was so naïve he didn't recognize what was happening. He knew how to feather his own nest and wipe out political opponents though.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Whatever happened to Luke, anyhow? He has basically dropped off the face of the earth. I haven't seen a picture of him in a bar surrounded by women in a long time.