OT: “ The Atlantic” magazine article: “The New Puritans”

[LionJim]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to have been able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[mn78psu83]

Required reading.

 

[Aardvark86]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to be able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

wow, really good piece.

 

[step.eng69]

👍 Thank you

“The alternative, for our cultural institutions and for democratic discourse, is grim. Foundations will do secret background checks on their potential grantees, to make sure they haven’t committed crimes-that-are-not-crimes that could be embarrassing in the future. Anonymous reports and Twitter mobs, not the reasoned judgments of peers, will shape the fate of individuals. Writers and journalists will fear publication. Universities will no longer be dedicated to the creation and dissemination of knowledge but to the promotion of student comfort and the avoidance of social-media attacks.

Worse, if we drive all of the difficult people, the demanding people, and the eccentric people away from the creative professions where they used to thrive, we will become a flatter, duller, less interesting society, a place where manuscripts sit in drawers for fear of arbitrary judgments. The arts, the humanities, and the media will become stiff, predictable, and mediocre. Democratic principles like the rule of law, the right to self-defense, the right to a just trial—even the right to be forgiven—will wither. There will be nothing to do but sit back and wait for the Hawthornes of the future to expose us.

 

[ericstratton-rushchairman]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to have been able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

I will que this up to read for sure... although I would submit "Common Core" as highly dogmatic

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to have been able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

Looking around, I see that this article is getting quite a bit of pushback.

I suggest that readers give that pushback some consideration. That is all.

 

[Midnighter2]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to have been able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

Some of this is also why our best and brightest do not run for political office - just not worth the scrutiny or harassment.

 

[91Joe95]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to have been able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

While I like the crux of the article (or is it manifesto?), the arthur both laments and at times applauds the usage of canceling. Ironically, his defenses of canceling almost come across as preemptive in nature. I suppose that's what happens when different opinions frighten people, and debate and the exchange of ideas makes people hyperventilate.

 

[Blue_Horseshoe]

This thread needs to be cancelled.

 

[Aardvark86]

While I like the crux of the article (or is it manifesto?), the arthur both laments and at times applauds the usage of canceling. Ironically, his defenses of canceling almost come across as preemptive in nature. I suppose that's what happens when different opinions frighten people, and debate and the exchange of ideas makes people hyperventilate.

yeah, a buddy of mine noted the same irony -- while lamenting the cancel culture, she plays the requisite defensive cards/pays the requisite homage w/r/t the underlying ideologies

 

[LionJim]

yeah, a buddy of mine noted the same irony -- while lamenting the cancel culture, she plays the requisite defensive cards/pays the requisite homage w/r/t the underlying ideologies

Because the genesis of these "ideologies" are very often rooted in attempts to deal with real problems. My background is in academia, so I feel comfortable in saying that, for example, sexism in academe is a very real thing, something that needs to be addressed. Applebaum's point is that in many cases attempts to address these issues are clearly illogical, illiberal, and ad hoc, and, as a result, extremely destructive, and that her examples illustrate a dangerous trend.

 

[OaktonDave]

Because the genesis of these "ideologies" are very often rooted in attempts to deal with real problems. My background is in academia, so I feel comfortable in saying that, for example, sexism in academe is a very real thing, something that needs to be addressed. Applebaum's point is that in many cases attempts to address these issues are clearly illogical, illiberal, ad hoc, and, as a result, extremely destructive, and that her examples illustrate a dangerous trend.

This reminds me somewhat of a piece of wisdom given me by a former boss. Paraphrasing her - broken, bloated bureaucracies all start with a sincere effort to solve a real problem. The sincerity of the original intent doesn't erase the failure and damage that followed, and the failure and damage don't erase the reality of the original problem.

 

[LionJim]

This reminds me somewhat of a piece of wisdom given me by a former boss. Paraphrasing her - broken, bloated bureaucracies all start with a sincere effort to solve a real problem. The sincerity of the original intent doesn't erase the failure and damage that followed, and the failure and damage don't erase the reality of the original problem.

That is true but, as Applebaum shows, much of the problem goes beyond bureaucracy. What I read were examples of peer pressure and social pressure run rampant.

 

[OaktonDave]

That is true but, as Applebaum shows, much of the problem goes beyond bureaucracy. What I read were examples of peer pressure and social pressure run rampant.

Agreed. I did not intend to suggest that the problem was bureaucracies. I was only trying to echo what I thought was your point about efforts to address real problems that go horribly wrong.

 

[JayWye]

By Anne Applebaum. It’s a must-read. As far as I’m personally concerned, it speaks for itself.

I’m a mathematician, and it’s been a luxury to have been able to avoid hot-button issues in my everyday working life. Max Dehn: “Mathematics is the only instructional material which can be presented in an entirely undogmatic way.” In 38 years in the classroom I brought up politics three times. It’s a luxury. Anyway, this is an important article. It’s behind an x-free-articles-a-month paywall, but I was able to access it.

The New Puritans

Social codes are changing, in many ways for the better. But for those whose behavior doesn’t adapt fast enough to the new norms, judgment can be swift—and merciless.

www.theatlantic.com

No employer is going to be interested in hiring a candidate who thinks the answer to 2 + 2 is negotiable.

 

[91Joe95]

Because the genesis of these "ideologies" are very often rooted in attempts to deal with real problems. My background is in academia, so I feel comfortable in saying that, for example, sexism in academe is a very real thing, something that needs to be addressed. Applebaum's point is that in many cases attempts to address these issues are clearly illogical, illiberal, and ad hoc, and, as a result, extremely destructive, and that her examples illustrate a dangerous trend.

I think the distinction is that the real problems have actual rules that are being broken.

 

[Nitt1300]

I made the point in the related thread that Texas' banning of real history in favor of some purified whitebread leave it to Beaver version is another example- both extremes are practicing "cancel culture" at a frantic rate and reason loses out

 

[WestSideLion]

On a related note, a friend just sent me this article.

https://thriveglobal.com/stories/ar...OWPP4ZRRAykqcL0sRdRk3KMAxmVYYuWBH01WGMOxAdla0

 

[Aardvark86]

No employer is going to be interested in hiring a candidate who thinks the answer to 2 + 2 is negotiable.

wanna bet?

 

[Aardvark86]

This reminds me somewhat of a piece of wisdom given me by a former boss. Paraphrasing her - broken, bloated bureaucracies all start with a sincere effort to solve a real problem. The sincerity of the original intent doesn't erase the failure and damage that followed, and the failure and damage don't erase the reality of the original problem.

or stated differently, the organization of any bureaucracy is very much like a septic tank - the really big chunks always rise to the top.

 

[Obliviax]

On a related note, a friend just sent me this article.

https://thriveglobal.com/stories/ar...OWPP4ZRRAykqcL0sRdRk3KMAxmVYYuWBH01WGMOxAdla0

I have to laugh. Ariana has been "part of the problem" and not the solution.

The key to our freedoms, and why speech and press are considered so highly in the bill of rights, is that we need to respect other's opinions no matter our point of view. There is a lot of shaming, bullying and suppression from very enlightened points of view.

For example, a friend told me that sports teams don't need to diversify their players because they are. a "performance-oriented" organization. An NFL team can't start 50% women lest get plastered on the field of play. I asked "OK, why isn't my company a 'performance oriented' organization? If we fail to compete, we get replaced and jobs go away. So isn't the 'performance' just a point of view?" The conversation deteriorated in the other party insinuating I was sexist and racist. Even though I pointed out that my wife has two PhD's and is a very successful person all done with my complete emotional and financial support. In fact, my wife was more successful than the person I was talking with. Anger ensued and they walked away muttering that I am a neanderthal. OK, I can understand them disagreeing with me but they simply could not articulate their position.

Back to Ariana and her pals...she spent the better part of the last two decades insulting and undermining any opinion not originated in NYC or CA. So, now that her movement has gone too far, she is suddenly "woke".

 

[WestSideLion]

I have to laugh. Ariana has been "part of the problem" and not the solution.

The key to our freedoms, and why speech and press are considered so highly in the bill of rights, is that we need to respect other's opinions no matter our point of view. There is a lot of shaming, bullying and suppression from very enlightened points of view.

For example, a friend told me that sports teams don't need to diversify their players because they are. a "performance-oriented" organization. An NFL team can't start 50% women lest get plastered on the field of play. I asked "OK, why isn't my company a 'performance oriented' organization? If we fail to compete, we get replaced and jobs go away. So isn't the 'performance' just a point of view?" The conversation deteriorated in the other party insinuating I was sexist and racist. Even though I pointed out that my wife has two PhD's and is a very successful person all done with my complete emotional and financial support. In fact, my wife was more successful than the person I was talking with. Anger ensued and they walked away muttering that I am a neanderthal. OK, I can understand them disagreeing with me but they simply could not articulate their position.

Back to Ariana and her pals...she spent the better part of the last two decades insulting and undermining any opinion not originated in NYC or CA. So, now that her movement has gone too far, she is suddenly "woke".

I merely shared an article on a related topic. Don’t pile on.

 

[Raffycorn]

I read the article; I also read this one, which I believe is also worth reading. https://www.gawker.com/media/speaking-freely-has-never-been-easier

 

[83wuzme]

I have to laugh. Ariana has been "part of the problem" and not the solution.

The key to our freedoms, and why speech and press are considered so highly in the bill of rights, is that we need to respect other's opinions no matter our point of view. There is a lot of shaming, bullying and suppression from very enlightened points of view.

For example, a friend told me that sports teams don't need to diversify their players because they are. a "performance-oriented" organization. An NFL team can't start 50% women lest get plastered on the field of play. I asked "OK, why isn't my company a 'performance oriented' organization? If we fail to compete, we get replaced and jobs go away. So isn't the 'performance' just a point of view?" The conversation deteriorated in the other party insinuating I was sexist and racist. Even though I pointed out that my wife has two PhD's and is a very successful person all done with my complete emotional and financial support. In fact, my wife was more successful than the person I was talking with. Anger ensued and they walked away muttering that I am a neanderthal. OK, I can understand them disagreeing with me but they simply could not articulate their position.

Back to Ariana and her pals...she spent the better part of the last two decades insulting and undermining any opinion not originated in NYC or CA. So, now that her movement has gone too far, she is suddenly "woke".

It’s more of a religion than an ideology. Like a lot of new religions, it is fanatical, arbitrary and irrational.

 

[Obliviax]

It’s more of a religion than an ideology. Like a lot of new religions, it is fanatical, arbitrary and irrational.

My only beef is that these are the people that light the match that caused the forest fire and are now trying to get credit for trying to put the forest fire out

 

[psu7113]

This thread needs to be cancelled.

Why? What is described in the article is exactly what happened to Joe Paterno, three PSU administrators and, to a lessor degree, at least for a while, PSU football itself.

 

[africamurphy]

I read the article; I also read this one, which I believe is also worth reading. https://www.gawker.com/media/speaking-freely-has-never-been-easier

A great piece of socialist trope. Not sure if everyone can see through it, but it's there.

Not that there's anything wrong with socialism, if there are pro-Cuba or pro-Russia folks out there. I don't want to offend.

 

[BringBackStoneys]

A great piece of socialist trope. Not sure if everyone can see through it, but it's there.

Not that there's anything wrong with socialism, if there are pro-Cuba or pro-Russia folks out there. I don't want to offend.

I lean toward Swedish or Norwegian-style socialism so long as we get the leggy blonde chicks out of the deal.

 

[ChiTownLion]

 

[PrtLng Lion]

Good article. I've told my kids countless times to be super careful about what they post on social media. No matter how harmless or innocent it may appear to us, someone out there can twist it to mean something else and it can be used against them far down the road. Maybe a prospective employer will scan through past social media posts trying to filter out candidates that don't align well with their way of thinking. It's like we all are walking on eggshells now.

 

[Mile High Lion]

View embedded media

My experience is the difficult, demanding people are the ones driving all of this.

 

[Obliviax]

I can sum this article up in one sentence that we used to say when we were kids: "You smelt it, you delt it."

 

[dailybuck777]

No employer is going to be interested in hiring a candidate who thinks the answer to 2 + 2 is negotiable.

I wish what you said was true.

 

[dailybuck777]

The main problem is that there's no penalty on the left for being insanely stupid. For instance, people are allowed to say that math is racist. Also, calls that birth certificates do not identify whether a boy or a girl was born.

Conservatives have to find a way to balance free speech against holding utterly stupid people responsible for their actions.

 

[MikeDerukey]

I have to laugh. Ariana has been "part of the problem" and not the solution.

we need to respect other's opinions no matter our point of view.

No we don't. This is exactly why we are in the situation we are in.

"The Earth is flat."

"White people are better than other races."

These are just two examples of many of points of few or opinions that shouldn't even be considered.

Opinions can be stupid. Opinions can be wrong. Opinions can be absolutely worthless and they certainly all do not deserve our respect. The idea that just because someone has an opinion or point of view we should consider it is why people are currently ignoring facts in favor of what they prefer. We need to stop acting like we should consider every stupid thing people say when we know better.

 

[africamurphy]

No we don't. This is exactly why we are in the situation we are in.

"The Earth is flat."

"White people are better than other races."

These are just two examples of many of points of few or opinions that shouldn't even be considered.

Opinions can be stupid. Opinions can be wrong. Opinions can be absolutely worthless and they certainly all do not deserve our respect. The idea that just because someone has an opinion or point of view we should consider it is why people are currently ignoring facts in favor of what they prefer. We need to stop acting like we should consider every stupid thing people say when we know better.

What does it hurt you if people say those things?

It's the assumption that speech equals violence which is dangerous. Because you start limiting more and more and more speech. Which equates ideas. Which equates confromity.

And someone out there will be deciding to what we should conform.

I believe in a round earth and equality of races...but I don't want to limit the freedom of speech for dumb people to say those things. It's a slippery slope and we're already losing our footing...

 

[MikeDerukey]

What does it hurt you if people say those things?

It's the assumption that speech equals violence which is dangerous. Because you start limiting more and more and more speech. Which equates ideas. Which equates confromity.

And someone out there will be deciding to what we should conform.

I believe in a round earth and equality of races...but I don't want to limit the freedom of speech for dumb people to say those things. It's a slippery slope and we're already losing our footing...

I never said any of that. However, the idea that we need to consider or entertain these things is simply wrong. If somebody says "the Earth is flat, let's consider this and debate it" it's a hard no. No, it's not. It's wrong and we're not going to even consider it because it's stupid. It's objectively stupid. The idea that just because someone says something we should treat it like it has value and should be given weight is why we are in trouble now. Again, opinions can be wrong, stupid and worthless. And when this happens we should dismiss them. Right now we have a problem where people think facts are debatable. They aren't but here we are. And it's dangerous. People get hurt when this happens.

 

[Obliviax]

No we don't. This is exactly why we are in the situation we are in.

"The Earth is flat."

"White people are better than other races."

These are just two examples of many of points of few or opinions that shouldn't even be considered.

Opinions can be stupid. Opinions can be wrong. Opinions can be absolutely worthless and they certainly all do not deserve our respect. The idea that just because someone has an opinion or point of view we should consider it is why people are currently ignoring facts in favor of what they prefer. We need to stop acting like we should consider every stupid thing people say when we know better.

I disagree, totally. At one point, "the earth is flat" was agreed upon and accepted. Anyone who suggested otherwise was shamed and punished. The problem with your proposal is that the majority gets to make the rules on what is and what is not acceptable opinions. Contrasting your examples, in March, suggesting COVID 19 was developed in a lab was ridiculed and punished. People were de-platformed on Twitter, YouTube etc. Oops, turns out they were probably correct. So if someone wants to say the earth is flat, I accept their opinion. However, I will not agree with it.

 

[MikeDerukey]

I disagree, totally. At one point, "the earth is flat" was agreed upon and accepted. Anyone who suggested otherwise was shamed and punished. The problem with your proposal is that the majority gets to make the rules on what is and what is not acceptable opinions. Contrasting your examples, in March, suggesting COVID 19 was developed in a lab was ridiculed and punished. People were de-platformed on Twitter, YouTube etc. Oops, turns out they were probably correct. So if someone wants to say the earth is flat, I accept their opinion. However, I will not agree with it.

And that's the problem. The idea that you accept the opinion that literally defies verifiable facts is why we have issues today. Facts are not debatable. What happens is that when we do discover something to be incorrect we adjust what we except. As long as we allow objectively wrong things to be accepted we will continue to live in a society where people decide that provable facts are wrong so they can replace them with their opinions.

 

[Obliviax]

And that's the problem. The idea that you accept the opinion that literally defies verifiable facts is why we have issues today. Facts are not debatable. What happens is that when we do discover something to be incorrect we adjust what we except. As long as we allow objectively wrong things to be accepted we will continue to live in a society where people decide that provable facts are wrong so they can replace them with their opinions.

I think we need to define the word "Accept". I accept that people may have differing opinions. As long as the person that thinks the world is flat isn't crafting orbits for satelites, I really don't care. I "accept" that they have a right to their opinion. That doesn't mean that I agree with it.

If you shut out anyone whose opinion you disagree with, there will never be progress.. Science is settled, the law is settled, Technology is settled. Until they aren't. Anything other than that is tyranny.