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Mat Talk: Sanderson Speaks Out

I thought he was well spoken. Obviously has his opinions and beliefs, which is expected. I thought he kind of danced around the profit sharing but JB kept at him. Great listen. I am willing to mold off this format. Perhaps someday have a final fou, but the rest just bowls. Would increase one more match for two teams. I wish u could hold teams accountable to participate and applaud those that do. I am glad Duster doesnt know who the good kids are in MN ;)
 
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grappler6 said:
I thought he was well spoken. Obviously has his opinions and beliefs, which is expected. I thought he kind of danced around the profit sharing but JB kept at him. Great listen. I am willing to mold off this format. Perhaps someday have a final fou, but the rest just bowls. Would increase one more match for two teams. I wish u could hold teams accountable to participate and applaud those that do. I am glad Duster doesnt know who the good kids are in MN ;)
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he said they had a contract. next time the coaches assoc. needs to write a better one. you don't change something after the fact.
 
lockhavenlion3 said:
he said they had a contract. next time the coaches assoc. needs to write a better one. you don't change something after the fact.
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Not the point (even though contracts can change). He still danced. Blamed contract, questioned on it more blamed administration, questioned more said he followed the contract and did as he said he would do. Jab again redirects the convo and asks if in the future he would profit share, Cael says ya for sure. So he makes a "rough commitment" without contract or administration support now, even though those were obstacles previously.

I am just making an observation and opinion of his response, don't mean for it to be a judgement. It just felt he was trying to save face instead of saying. "I built Penn State into a power with fan following and I am fine helping with travel expenses, but our fans come out to support us and I want the remaining money to support our program."

Minor citicism over a great hourish of wrasslin talk
 
They negotiated a contract, agreed and signed the agreement. According to Cael PSU was among the first to sign. Later some decided to try to amend the contract and this was brought to PSU administration and looked down upon. This is a non issue made by potentially jealous coaches/administrations. Making an issue is not in the best interest of wrestling period...
 
^Cael said the controversy was good as it creates discussion about the event. I agree.
 
Cael makes the argument the individual tournament allows for a more accurate identification of the best team.

Bryant offers last season's Edinboro team finishing in the top 4 despite losing a dual to Old Dominion as a counter argument.

Cael did not argue the individual tournament is the best, most accurate way to identify the 4th best team. Cael's subject centered on identifying the best team. Bryant's counter was it may not be accurate in best identifying the 4th best team. Shyt man. Compare an apple to an apple, not an apple to a tangerine and then think you have a point.
 
we could have gone on for hours arguing dual vs tournament merits. I didn't want to spend too much time on the philosophy of it ... just needed to set up the scenario to show there are counter points to either angle. Intent of the show was to get the conversation rolling, not belabor personal preferences. I could have made a mountain of an argument defending the dual and vice versa ... just needed to get Cael's context as to why he prefers tournament scoring to determine a champ.

I'm not going to blindly agree with everyone I have on my show.
 
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Very well done, Jason. I thought the discuss was super interesting and it was great to hear Cael's position on stuff. Cael DID dance on the issue of revenue sharing but the real question is why. I suspect it has to do with him not wanting to throw PSU administration under the bus. There's just NO WAY it would have been Cael's call to do something other than what was written in the contract as the contract is with the university.

I fully believe he will support revenue sharing after this contract is completed as he said as much.
 
PSUAllTheWay said:
Very well done, Jason. I thought the discuss was super interesting and it was great to hear Cael's position on stuff. Cael DID dance on the issue of revenue sharing but the real question is why. I suspect it has to do with him not wanting to throw PSU administration under the bus. There's just NO WAY it would have been Cael's call to do something other than what was written in the contract as the contract is with the university.

I fully believe he will support revenue sharing after this contract is completed as he said as much.
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I listened to the entire podcast and thought Jason was given NWCA talking points and used them. Big discussion on the revenue sharing. Thought Cael made it clear he had a signed agreement; so what changed? No discussion on who drove the change and why? JRob brings it up and Jason runs with it. Dresser brings up coaches potentially manipulating the standings to get the opponent they want in the dual championships and NO discussion on that; clearly the NWCA wanted to avoid that discussion. Cael's discussion on the wrestlers in each weight class was good.
 
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Lion-around said:
I listened to the entire podcast and thought Jason was given NWCA talking points and used them. Big discussion on the revenue sharing. Thought Cael made it clear he had a signed agreement; so what changed? No discussion on who drove the change and why? JRob brings it up and Jason runs with it. Dresser brings up coaches potentially manipulating the standings to get the opponent they want in the dual championships and NO discussion on that; clearly the NWCA wanted to avoid that discussion. Cael's discussion on the wrestlers in each weight class was good.
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Interesting take. I though jason did a great job and was very balanced. He has to ask the tough questions and he did. JB elevated himself with me in that podcast. I very much enjoyed it!
 
I wasn't given any talking points by anyone. I have a knowledge of the situation because I do freelance work with the NWCA. I didn't go down the manipulation angle for 2 reasons -- 1. I vetted the coaches poll votes after it was released and they jived and 2. Penn State wasn't centered around that discussion. Dresser made enough of those points on my VT show. with 15 shows on my network, there is some redundancy, but I'm not going to repeat the same content.

What I didn't have any experience with was the revenue share, which was fully brought up on TDR by JRob. Asked a few on that subject then moved on.
 
JasonBryant said:
we could have gone on for hours arguing dual vs tournament merits. I didn't want to spend too much time on the philosophy of it ... just needed to set up the scenario to show there are counter points to either angle. Intent of the show was to get the conversation rolling, not belabor personal preferences. I could have made a mountain of an argument defending the dual and vice versa ... just needed to get Cael's context as to why he prefers tournament scoring to determine a champ.

I'm not going to blindly agree with everyone I have on my show.
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Okay, how can anyone argue that the current National Dual structure "didn't work" then (as J-Rob and his merry band of NWCA "make it up as we go along" spin artists wish to claim)? PSU is the only team that completed the "dual season" culminated by the National Dual Series UNDEFEATED in duals. PSU beat the Regular-Season Dual-Meet Champion of the ACC, B12, EIWL and Pac12 (4 of the other 7 conferences outside the B1G and 100% of the Conferences that had teams ranked in the top 5 outside of the B1G). Of the top 16 post-NDCS NWCA Final Poll published on Feb 23, 2016, PSU beat #3 and ACC Dual-Meet Champion VaTech, #5 and B12 Dual-Meet Champion Oklahoma State, #7 tO$U, #8 Michigan, #9 and EIWL Dual-Meet Champion Lehigh, #12 UNL and #13 Illinois. Absolutely absurd to claim the structure didn't work in identifying the best "Regular-Season Dual-Meet Team" given that PSU won the B1G Regular-Season Dual-Meet Championship and beat the next two highest non-B1G Conference Regular-Season Dual-Meet Champions going into the National Dual BCS structure - #3 Oklahoma State and #5 VaTech (again, PSU beat 4 of the 7 total non-B1G Conference Regular-Season Dual-Meet Champions). The only top 10 non-B1G Regular-Season Dual-Meet Champion that PSU did not beat was MAC Champion Missouri who went into, and came out of, the BCS format ranked #6 with 2 DUAL LOSSES - one to B12 Dual-Meet Conference Champion Oklahoma State and the other to ACC 2nd Place Dual-Season finisher NC State, who lost the ACC Dual-Meet Championship in a heads up DUAL MEET in the final week of the ACC Season the week before the National Duals BCS Format!

How anyone, let alone a whole slew of agenda-driven NWCA Coaches, could waste day after day yabbering about how important WINNING DUAL MEETS is to determining the "best team" and then complain that 2016 DUAL SEASON CULMINATED BY THE NWCA NATIONAL DUALS BCS EVENT failed in determining who was truly the best "DUAL TEAM" is really quite beyond me. Completely absurd for a group of NWCA Coaches who place so much emphasis on WINNING DUALS against the other top-ranked DUAL TEAMS could continue to have such a stupid debate especially when this same group of hypocrites voted VaTech below NC State AFTER VaTech WON the supposedly "Gold Standard" ACC DUAL-MEET CHAMPIONSHIP (and auto-qualifying bid for ACC) by defeating NC State in a HEADS UP DUAL MEET FOR ALL THE MARBLES THE VERY DAY THAT ALL THESE ARDENT DUAL MEET PROPONENTS FOR DETERMINING TEAM STRENGTH VOTED!!! LMFAO at these lying, obfuscating, agenda-driven CLOWNS like J-Rob and his merry-band of "wanna-be" NCAA wrestling dictators.
 
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Bushwood.....I finally see your light and agree.

Every game in FCS counts for something right? Yes. Why? Because of rankings and conference title games that feed into a bowl championship. If you dont win more than you loose or look good doing it you suffer and thus there is weekly excitement and fans are into it every week and build their lives around the sport. In football we have injuries and it could be said that not every team plays its best 11 against any other teams best 11 each week. We all agree with this in some fashion?

Why cant our dual system and the NWCA dual series be thought of the same way? People want to cheapen (current tournament) what is good to prop up something that isnt (NWCA duals). This is the wrong way to go about saving the sport, but some of our coaches are stuck in the mud about branding/marketing/growth of the sport, just like some of them are with their athlete training methods.

Cael and staff are for a system that every dual should matter to every team throughout the WHOLE season. Why???because the vast majority of coaches themselves dont care for the most part about their regular season duals. This thinking needs to change if they want the system as a whole to work. If the coaches dont care (care might be harsh, maybe I should say stuck in their ways) why should fans, alumni and administrators care? If they did, they wouldnt just let your 10 matchup against our 10 wrestle and go home. They would move guys around, they would have JV guys wrestle your starters, etc and build up the in match excitement within the excitement of each meet. Excitement brings fans to the arena and in the age of the internet to our on-line features. new revenue sources.

Forfeits, p!ss poor matchups (ringer vs nickal should have happened) and just going through the motions is what is killing the sport.

There is so much more to say, but once that is fixed we can work on revenue sharing. 100% of nothing Im told is less than 10% of something.
 
grappler6 said:
I thought he was well spoken. Obviously has his opinions and beliefs, which is expected. I thought he kind of danced around the profit sharing but JB kept at him. Great listen. I am willing to mold off this format. Perhaps someday have a final fou, but the rest just bowls. Would increase one more match for two teams. I wish u could hold teams accountable to participate and applaud those that do. I am glad Duster doesnt know who the good kids are in MN ;)
Click to expand...

Good statement. Kind of glad to see this comment from a Minnesota supporter because of their HC's long support of the dual tournament.

"mold off this format" - agree completely.

Just like the football bowls, perhaps the next step is a "plus one" IF either the 2 top B1G teams are undefeated OR the 2 top non-B1Gs are undefeated. A simple solution to everyone's bitch this year. In this scenario, the top seeded B1G school, or top seeded non-B1Gs host all 4 schools.

With the current landscape of NCAA wrestling, there doesn't need to be more than 4 schools involved in the title matches, and many years no more than 2. If interest grows, THEN expand.
 
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dunkej01 said:
Bushwood.....I finally see your light and agree.

Every game in FCS counts for something right? Yes. Why? Because of rankings and conference title games that feed into a bowl championship. If you dont win more than you loose or look good doing it you suffer and thus there is weekly excitement and fans are into it every week and build their lives around the sport. In football we have injuries and it could be said that not every team plays its best 11 against any other teams best 11 each week. We all agree with this in some fashion?

Why cant our dual system and the NWCA dual series be thought of the same way? People want to cheapen (current tournament) what is good to prop up something that isnt (NWCA duals). This is the wrong way to go about saving the sport, but some of our coaches are stuck in the mud about branding/marketing/growth of the sport, just like some of them are with their athlete training methods.

Cael and staff are for a system that every dual should matter to every team throughout the WHOLE season. Why???because the vast majority of coaches themselves dont care for the most part about their regular season duals. This thinking needs to change if they want the system as a whole to work. If the coaches dont care (care might be harsh, maybe I should say stuck in their ways) why should fans, alumni and administrators care? If they did, they wouldnt just let your 10 matchup against our 10 wrestle and go home. They would move guys around, they would have JV guys wrestle your starters, etc and build up the in match excitement within the excitement of each meet. Excitement brings fans to the arena and in the age of the internet to our on-line features. new revenue sources.

Forfeits, p!ss poor matchups (ringer vs nickal should have happened) and just going through the motions is what is killing the sport.

There is so much more to say, but once that is fixed we can work on revenue sharing. 100% of nothing Im told is less than 10% of something.
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This whole thing is nothing but a bunch of hypocritical whining by a bunch of agenda-driven pukes as evidenced by the fact that they voted VaTech below NC State AFTER VaTech WON the supposedly "Gold Standard" ACC DUAL-MEET CHAMPIONSHIP (and auto-qualifying bid for ACC) by defeating NC State in a heads-up dual meet for all the marbles on the very day the ballots determining the NDCS Pairings were handed in!!! LMFAO at these lying, obfuscating, agenda-driven CLOWNS like J-Rob and his merry-band of "wanna-be" NCAA wrestling dictators who want to CHEAPEN regular-season DUAL MEET victories and Conference Dual Meet Championships as well as the National Tournament and replace it with effectively a "post-season Dual tournament" where the most highly ranked teams who have ALREADY wrestled duals against many of the lower seeds are forced to wrestle 3 Advancement Duals just to get to the Championship Dual, a 4th dual meet in this tournament, THE WEEK BEFORE THE START OF THE POST-SEASON AND CONFERENCE TOURNAMENTS??? Please do tell what incentive a perennially highly-ranked team has to participate in such a stupidly structured "tournament" which is so unfair to the teams that did the most WINNING of DUAL MEETS during the regular season in favor of providing unfair benefits to lower seeded teams with tons of DUAL MEET LOSSES???
 
dunkej01 said:
Bushwood.....I finally see your light and agree.

Every game in FCS counts for something right? Yes. Why? Because of rankings and conference title games that feed into a bowl championship. If you dont win more than you loose or look good doing it you suffer and thus there is weekly excitement and fans are into it every week and build their lives around the sport. In football we have injuries and it could be said that not every team plays its best 11 against any other teams best 11 each week. We all agree with this in some fashion?

Why cant our dual system and the NWCA dual series be thought of the same way? People want to cheapen (current tournament) what is good to prop up something that isnt (NWCA duals). This is the wrong way to go about saving the sport, but some of our coaches are stuck in the mud about branding/marketing/growth of the sport, just like some of them are with their athlete training methods.

Cael and staff are for a system that every dual should matter to every team throughout the WHOLE season. Why???because the vast majority of coaches themselves dont care for the most part about their regular season duals. This thinking needs to change if they want the system as a whole to work. If the coaches dont care (care might be harsh, maybe I should say stuck in their ways) why should fans, alumni and administrators care? If they did, they wouldnt just let your 10 matchup against our 10 wrestle and go home. They would move guys around, they would have JV guys wrestle your starters, etc and build up the in match excitement within the excitement of each meet. Excitement brings fans to the arena and in the age of the internet to our on-line features. new revenue sources.

Forfeits, p!ss poor matchups (ringer vs nickal should have happened) and just going through the motions is what is killing the sport.

There is so much more to say, but once that is fixed we can work on revenue sharing. 100% of nothing Im told is less than 10% of something.
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Another angle is get some Corp(s) to put up a $1M pot to paid out prorated to the participants, NWCA gets the gates so they get their cash and they pay out the travel expense to the participants.........$250k to the winner, 100k to 2nd and so on. The Corp(s) markets this tournament all year, get naming rights to whatever they want.....$50k to App St or IU would be huge to their growth. In todays corp environment is $1M that much?
 
I believe the host school or NWCA should help out with the travel costs. Beyond that? I don't think so. JRob, and others, want to share revenue. They like to talk about other sports sharing the revenue to help boister lesser teams. PSU wrestling is not self sufficient. I don't believe that Iowa is self sufficient either. Both of these schools have large home crowds and generous boosters and yet they do not make enough money. What revenue does JRob want to share in? Is he really asking PSU's football team, because that is where the money comes from, to sponsor other school's wrestling teams?
 
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I think a dual tournament would be neat, but under the current season structure and time constraints it just isn't feasible to have at the end.

I agree with Cael that the late notice of who is wrestling prevents marketing and planning, but I like that current season results predict the match ups. Not sure how you avoid it.
 
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JRob and revenue sharing is just the latest whine. If this model somehow became a raging success with ESPN showing each match and showering every D1 wrestling program with multiple millions of dollars. JRob would be whinning because the money was received in annual payments and not all up front.
J has been a tremendous promoter of and asset for wrestling, but as his times races to a finish he becomes more and more bitter and irrational.
Sharing the revenue. $10,000 to offset travel expenses (flying). What was the total revenue, $70,000? That's Penn State and Iowa. What did Ohio State generate $15,000?

JRob is whinning about a couple thousand bucks.
 
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nitlion6 said:
JRob and revenue sharing is just the latest whine. If this model somehow became a raging success with ESPN showing each match and showering every D1 wrestling program with multiple millions of dollars. JRob would be whinning because the money was received in annual payments and not all up front.
J has been a tremendous promoter of and asset for wrestling, but as his times races to a finish he becomes more and more bitter and irrational.
Sharing the revenue. $10,000 to offset travel expenses (flying). What was the total revenue, $70,000? That's Penn State and Iowa. What did Ohio State generate $15,000?

JRob is whinning about a couple thousand bucks.
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Not only is he whining about nothing in terms of $$$, but also being a hypocite in regards to how important "winning duals" are toward determining the "best team" in the nation....so duals are super important, but he wants to cheapen regular-season dual victories & regular-season Dual-Meet Conference Chapionships via this advancement tournament (no better example of this hypocrisy than the screw job VaTech, the ACC Regular-Season Dual Meet Champion, in regards to their NWCA ranking & NDCS pairing in favor the #2 ACC Dual finisher, NCSU, who had just lost heads-up to VaTech for ACC Championship on the day of MWCA Ballot before pairings?).
 
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hey JB, congrats on an excellent interview. CS has not been very verbal about some of these issues, but I thought you did a nice job of asking the questions, and letting him respond.
 
may be a dumb suggestion based on alignment, but the BIG could set up a match to determine champion somewhere along the lines of the football direction. All teams pair up against the other corresponding placed team in the other division. So this year you would have had PSU and Iowa. 2nd place teams in each div wrestle and so on. So everyone has a placeholder for a match. The trouble I have with this is how you would wrestle the normal season - only your division? That leaves the possibility of never wrestling IOWA or a Minnie.... Just a thought.... set up 'rolling' divisions... Since each team does not wrestle 2 teams (that rotate every other year) that could be a solution to ensure you are not repeating a previous match earlier in the season... Dunno... I'm happy with what they go as this weekend is the conference championship!!
 
Listening to the Takedown radio show, I didn't get the perception that JRob was whining. He was responding to Scot's questions in a discussion. Sure he stated his opinion and it disagreed with Cael's in some scenarios, but his was pretty diplomatic compared to what J has been at times. He said he disagrees with the format but is choosing to participate and support it. Cael and him even agreed on several things. JRob seems to be taking some heat for things he had little to no control over. Scot's responses to J rob's statements seem to be getting lumped in as J's words. Some even think that Apparently J screwed VT out of facing IA. Damn you J!!!
 
Going to try and be short. First, Cael will never, and I do mean NEVER, wrestle a true dual meet tournament so close to the B1G tournament. The only way this would ever happen is if the NCAA hit their head and mandated the tournament and assign a point total for placement in the dual meet tournament to be carried to the national tournament. Second, did anyone catch near the end that Zain was sick against Collica, that explains a lot.
 
a_mshaffer said:
may be a dumb suggestion based on alignment, but the BIG could set up a match to determine champion somewhere along the lines of the football direction. All teams pair up against the other corresponding placed team in the other division. So this year you would have had PSU and Iowa. 2nd place teams in each div wrestle and so on. So everyone has a placeholder for a match. The trouble I have with this is how you would wrestle the normal season - only your division? That leaves the possibility of never wrestling IOWA or a Minnie.... Just a thought.... set up 'rolling' divisions... Since each team does not wrestle 2 teams (that rotate every other year) that could be a solution to ensure you are not repeating a previous match earlier in the season... Dunno... I'm happy with what they go as this weekend is the conference championship!!
Click to expand...
There were comments about 'revenue sharing' and there was certainly after the fact attempts to redo the money aspect 'revenue sharing". Revenue sharing debates over $70,000.

Of course, everything is relative. The NWCA might see that as a huge cash flow for one of their events.
 
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