Masters Of The Air

[SR108]

@SR108 I asked that exact same question of Norm Graham (lead Nav for the Bloody 100th at the end of the war). His response was "Because my buddy did."

Spoiler Alert!: I took away the scene where the captain starts humming Artie Shaw's "The Chant"

The only pilot to successfully bring his men back to base was Major Robert “Rosie” Rosenthal (Nate Mann). While the other planes went down over occupied Europe, leaving surviving soldiers to fend for themselves behind enemy lines, Rosenthal managed to keep his panicking crew calm ahead of a harrowing dog fight by humming Artie Shaw’s “The Chant.” Masters of the Air Episode 5 “Part Five” depicts this as a terrifying, yet heroic moment, highlighting the bravery of real-life Jewish-American hero Robert Rosenthal.​

​

​

This seems to be a recurring theme with many of these warriors. They join/enlist for patriotic reasons and/or a desire for glory or adventure, but when the horrors of war set in, they end up fighting for their friends and mutual survival. My/our generation has been very fortunate, we were barely too young for Vietnam Nam and were too old for the Gulf Wars. One thing that shows like this, Band of Brothers, and the Pacific do is illustrate to those of us that never experienced it, just how terrible war is.

Man has had thousands of years to figure out how to achieve lasting peace and has failed. For me, mankind’s only hope is God’s Grace and his biblical promises.

 

[Obliviax]

This seems to be a recurring theme with many of these warriors. They join/enlist for patriotic reasons and/or a desire for glory or adventure, but when the horrors of war set in, they end up fighting for their friends and mutual survival. My/our generation has been very fortunate, we were barely too young for Vietnam Nam and were too old for the Gulf Wars. One thing that shows like this, Band of Brothers, and the Pacific do is illustrate to those of us that never experienced it, just how terrible war is.

Man has had thousands of years to figure out how to achieve lasting peace and has failed. For me, mankind’s only hope is God’s Grace and his biblical promises.

So well stated.

I've been fascinated with war for this very reason. I am always asking "how did they get to that place?!" I see it in Ukraine, the quicksand of war. You get drawn in and then patriotic emotions make it such that mutual destruction is somehow better than a loss. Cooler heads need to prevail so that a negotiated settlement, where neither side gets a 100% win, is preferred.

And to your point on God's Grace, I was always fascinated with the biblical story of Adam and Eve. it just made no sense to me. In later years, I get it. Adam and Eve had a utopia. But it wasn't enough. Utopia, without the experience and understanding of struggle, makes it useless. So we now have something far less than Utopia. And that struggle not only allows us to enjoy the good times as a factor of the bad times but also allows us to discover what and who we are as individual humans. The struggle is Utopia. To me, it is the most important but least understood passages in the bible.

 

[SR108]

So well stated.

I've been fascinated with war for this very reason. I am always asking "how did they get to that place?!" I see it in Ukraine, the quicksand of war. You get drawn in and then patriotic emotions make it such that mutual destruction is somehow better than a loss. Cooler heads need to prevail so that a negotiated settlement, where neither side gets a 100% win, is preferred.

And to your point on God's Grace, I was always fascinated with the biblical story of Adam and Eve. it just made no sense to me. In later years, I get it. Adam and Eve had a utopia. But it wasn't enough. Utopia, without the experience and understanding of struggle, makes it useless. So we now have something far less than Utopia. And that struggle not only allows us to enjoy the good times as a factor of the bad times but also allows us to discover what and who we are as individual humans. The struggle is Utopia. To me, it is the most important but least understood passages in the bible.

My belief is that man brought on the struggle through his own decision to disobey God, and we have suffered the consequences ever since.

I get it how many people view the Bible/Old Testament as mythology and fantasy, yet with all of man’s knowledge and advancement and belief in himself, his arrogance, greed and yes sinful nature always fails him. Which leads me back to a belief in Jesus as the only solution.

 

[Obliviax]

Looks like Episode six dropped, or soon will

Masters Of The Air Episode 6 Looks Very Different, And It's Great For The Band Of Brothers Comparisons

How Masters of the Air episode 6 is different.

screenrant.com

 

[Obliviax]

spoiler alert!!!



Six was a great episode and is a bit of a pivot. I believe this goes nine episodes. So there are three to go. the first five seemed to focus on the air battles and to try and get the viewer to understand what the crews had to deal with. It looks like they may move to building the characters more as we move in six ~ nine.

The realism and attention to detail has been great. And reading up on each episode, they really stuck to the real story line of the real life characters.

For example, Rosenthal is jewish and ended the war as one of the most decorated members of the 8th Air Force.. I am not sure if the song selection was historically correct or a creative insert but it is historically correct that Rosenthal would hum during intense moments to calm himself and the crew. The song, again not sure if it is history or art, that was chosen was Arti Shaw's "The Chant". The Chant is a song that is seeped in Jewish history.

Moving to Episode six, they give us a glance of the holocaust and nazi savagery. My bet is that they exploit this more for the next couple of episodes.

 

[ftlpsu]

To quote the late great George Luz who we all love from BoB

"The Germans are Baaaaad"

 

[tlbakernc]

Agreed. I stated before the guy who hired me out of college was the lead Nav for the 100th bomb group (351st squadron) when the war ended. His name was Norman Graham and he was from Jennette PA. Based on what he told me:

• 
  
• 
  

Waist gunners had the highest casualties. I have one question I’d love to ask Norm. How the hell to shot a 50 cal in without hitting other B-17s in formation. Friendly fire had to be a real issue.

 

[Obliviax]

Waist gunners had the highest casualties. I have one question I’d love to ask Norm. How the hell to shot a 50 cal in without hitting other B-17s in formation. Friendly fire had to be a real issue.

Unfortunately norm is long gone.

There was a scene in one of the earliest episodes that appeared that friendly fire shot down a fort but it went unmentioned.

 

[PAgeologist]

Waist gunners had the highest casualties. I have one question I’d love to ask Norm. How the hell to shot a 50 cal in without hitting other B-17s in formation. Friendly fire had to be a real issue.

I'm sure friendly fire happened. I watched a documentary where they described how they set up the formations to try and avoid this. Taking into account the movement and range of the guns. I don't remember the show. I'd love to watch it again. But I'm sure most of that plan went to shit once the fighters started hitting them.

 

[tlbakernc]

I'm sure friendly fire happened. I watched a documentary where they described how they set up the formations to try and avoid this. Taking into account the movement and range of the guns. I don't remember the show. I'd love to watch it again. But I'm sure most of that plan went to shit once the fighters started hitting them.

Would love to see that show. Had no idea they flew in a formation that would take into account friendly fire.

 

[ftlpsu]

Would love to see that show. Had no idea they flew in a formation that would take into account friendly fire.

They are supposed to fly in a like diamond formation, as close together as possible. Hence the term flying fortress, which is intended to create a natural defense with the ability to provide intersecting fields of fire against oncoming planes coming at them..

Think about a plane passing by would be Tuff to make it thru a handful of. 50 Cals and twin 30s shooting at u as u make a strafing pass..

 

[Obliviax]

They are supposed to fly in a like diamond formation, as close together as possible. Hence the term flying fortress, which is intended to create a natural defense with the ability to provide intersecting fields of fire against oncoming planes coming at them..

Think about a plane passing by would be Tuff to make it thru a handful of. 50 Cals and twin 30s shooting at u as u make a strafing pass..

Agree with everything but the term Flying Fortress. That was the B17 alone due to the 13 50 caliber guns plus the fact that the Germans beat the shit out of them and they kept flying.

 

[ftlpsu]

Agree with everything but the term Flying Fortress. That was the B17 alone due to the 13 50 caliber guns plus the fact that the Germans beat the shit out of them and they kept flying.

YES agree.. The B17 is called Flying fortress... I embellished the concept of them the "flying fortress" in a defensive formation.. All good

 

[Obliviax]

Spoiler Alert!





I watched the latest episode, seven of nine, last night. Pretty clear this was a transitional episode as they are moving more into personal stories and characters. observations:

• It looks like the P-51 Mustang really helped out the B17s and give them some hope.
• Having said that, looks like Doolittle is amping up the danger more on that below
• Background note: Stalag Luft III was the best stalag in the war. There were 35,000 airmen there, 28,000 of those were from the 100th. 80 airmen tried to escape and this is what the movie 'The great escape' is based upon.
• Crosby is having an affair with a young brit officer (actually, under officer) and she avoids any question about what she does but we know it is important. Hope that develops too. I visited Churchill's bunker in London and they had a recording of a woman playing. She said that she was Churchill's executive assistant for many years (shows this in the Churchill movie Darkest Hour). Her story is that in 1945, she tells her husband that they are going to a party. When asked about it, she says it is Winston Churchill's party. He asked "how the hell do you know Winston Chruchill?" Her response "I've been his secretary for five years but that was top secret and I couldn't tell you." wow
• Looks like next week we get the Tuskeegee Airmen AND D-Day.

So on the new danger for the B17s, Doolittle wants the B17s to be bait to get the German fighters in the air so that the P-51s can knock them down in prep for D-Day. My friend Norm, who was the Bloody 100th lead nav when the war ended told me that one day they were summoned for a mission. It was just a handful of B-17s and by that point, the runs were hundreds of B17s. So the crew couldn't figure out why they'd just have a few forts go out, drop bombs and come back. Well, they are almost over their target when a gunner yells out, Bandit at 6 o'clock low. They look down and other are two german fighters going straight up. Turns out they were ME 262 jets. They'd never seen a jet before and never saw a plane that could sustain a strait up trajectory. The jets blew through the formation knocking the right wingman fort out. The jets go above the formation and begin to wing over for another attack strait down. Just then, a pack of P-51s come out of the clouds and engage the jets who are now going slow in their wingover. One of the 51s manages to smoke an engine on a 262. Norm described the next few seconds like an old movie where the film had broken and it was spliced together losing a dozen or so frames. At one point, the 51s were closing and in the next instant, the Germans kicked in their jets and were gone. The crew was shocked and never even imagined that kind of power. Norm said they dumped their bombs and flew home without a person saying a word in the several hour flight home. They all thought they were dead men walking. And they all realized that their mission was to "bait" the 262s into a fight with the 51s and see what they were getting into. Later, several missions were expended hitting the 262 factories to keep Germany from getting many up into the air. Hope I didn't bore you!

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

Spoiler Alert!





I watched the latest episode, seven of nine, last night. Pretty clear this was a transitional episode as they are moving more into personal stories and characters. observations:

• It looks like the P-51 Mustang really helped out the B17s and give them some hope.
• Having said that, looks like Doolittle is amping up the danger more on that below
• Background note: Stalag Luft III was the best stalag in the war. There were 35,000 airmen there, 28,000 of those were from the 100th. 80 airmen tried to escape and this is what the movie 'The great escape' is based upon.
• Crosby is having an affair with a young brit officer (actually, under officer) and she avoids any question about what she does but we know it is important. Hope that develops too. I visited Churchill's bunker in London and they had a recording of a woman playing. She said that she was Churchill's executive assistant for many years (shows this in the Churchill movie Darkest Hour). Her story is that in 1945, she tells her husband that they are going to a party. When asked about it, she says it is Winston Churchill's party. He asked "how the hell do you know Winston Chruchill?" Her response "I've been his secretary for five years but that was top secret and I couldn't tell you." wow
• Looks like next week we get the Tuskeegee Airmen AND D-Day.

So on the new danger for the B17s, Doolittle wants the B17s to be bait to get the German fighters in the air so that the P-51s can knock them down in prep for D-Day. My friend Norm, who was the Bloody 100th lead nav when the war ended told me that one day they were summoned for a mission. It was just a handful of B-17s and by that point, the runs were hundreds of B17s. So the crew couldn't figure out why they'd just have a few forts go out, drop bombs and come back. Well, they are almost over their target when a gunner yells out, Bandit at 6 o'clock low. They look down and other are two german fighters going straight up. Turns out they were ME 262 jets. They'd never seen a jet before and never saw a plane that could sustain a strait up trajectory. The jets blew through the formation knocking the right wingman fort out. The jets go above the formation and begin to wing over for another attack strait down. Just then, a pack of P-51s come out of the clouds and engage the jets who are now going slow in their wingover. One of the 51s manages to smoke an engine on a 262. Norm described the next few seconds like an old movie where the film had broken and it was spliced together losing a dozen or so frames. At one point, the 51s were closing and in the next instant, the Germans kicked in their jets and were gone. The crew was shocked and never even imagined that kind of power. Norm said they dumped their bombs and flew home without a person saying a word in the several hour flight home. They all thought they were dead men walking. And they all realized that their mission was to "bait" the 262s into a fight with the 51s and see what they were getting into. Later, several missions were expended hitting the 262 factories to keep Germany from getting many up into the air. Hope I didn't bore you!

In the episode, the Mustangs made the B17s look like they were standing still, so I can't imagine what the ME262s would've looked like flying through the formations. They must've been just a blur. Also can't imagine what the airmen must've gone through just to climb into their planes thinking they probably wouldn't be coming back.

 

[Obliviax]

In the episode, the Mustangs made the B17s look like they were standing still, so I can't imagine what the ME262s would've looked like flying through the formations. They must've been just a blur.

Yep. And they went straight up! The other issue is that they had the range to go the entire trip as the fighters before did not.

 

[ftlpsu]

I never knew or even heard about using the B17s as "Bait" so that we could cull the Luftwaffe.
Interesting tactic.

Further, Rosie's reluctance to simply go home after flying 25 missions-WOW. I believe that most would not simply go home unless they had wife and children-which would completely understandable.

They are The Greatest Generation!

 

[Obliviax]

I never knew or even heard about using the B17s as "Bait" so that we could cull the Luftwaffe.
Interesting tactic.

Further, Rosie's reluctance to simply go home after flying 25 missions-WOW. I believe that most would not simply go home unless they had wife and children-which would completely understandable.

They are The Greatest Generation!

I believe he ended up as the highest decorated in the bloody 100th. I also didn’t know, if you got shot down and escaped, you were done.

 

[ftlpsu]

I believe he ended up as the highest decorated in the bloody 100th. I also didn’t know, if you got shot down and escaped, you were done.

Yeah that was the other concept that I never knew about which I find very interesting. Of course, I really didnt focus too much on the Air segment of WW2. I did read Fly Boys which was by James Bradley (father was one of the Iwo Jima Flag guys). The first few chapters were all about "Why" and "Who" the Japanese were from a cultural perspective, eventually getting into GW Bush's missions. I digress..

That makes 100% complete sense if you got caught and escaped you didnt fly again--made complete sense.
The changing the missions req. really bothered me--its always the men who make these impactful decisions that have no real experience in these areas or never wind up affecting them.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Spoiler Alert!





I watched the latest episode, seven of nine, last night. Pretty clear this was a transitional episode as they are moving more into personal stories and characters. observations:

• It looks like the P-51 Mustang really helped out the B17s and give them some hope.
• Having said that, looks like Doolittle is amping up the danger more on that below
• Background note: Stalag Luft III was the best stalag in the war. There were 35,000 airmen there, 28,000 of those were from the 100th. 80 airmen tried to escape and this is what the movie 'The great escape' is based upon.
• Crosby is having an affair with a young brit officer (actually, under officer) and she avoids any question about what she does but we know it is important. Hope that develops too. I visited Churchill's bunker in London and they had a recording of a woman playing. She said that she was Churchill's executive assistant for many years (shows this in the Churchill movie Darkest Hour). Her story is that in 1945, she tells her husband that they are going to a party. When asked about it, she says it is Winston Churchill's party. He asked "how the hell do you know Winston Chruchill?" Her response "I've been his secretary for five years but that was top secret and I couldn't tell you." wow
• Looks like next week we get the Tuskeegee Airmen AND D-Day.

So on the new danger for the B17s, Doolittle wants the B17s to be bait to get the German fighters in the air so that the P-51s can knock them down in prep for D-Day. My friend Norm, who was the Bloody 100th lead nav when the war ended told me that one day they were summoned for a mission. It was just a handful of B-17s and by that point, the runs were hundreds of B17s. So the crew couldn't figure out why they'd just have a few forts go out, drop bombs and come back. Well, they are almost over their target when a gunner yells out, Bandit at 6 o'clock low. They look down and other are two german fighters going straight up. Turns out they were ME 262 jets. They'd never seen a jet before and never saw a plane that could sustain a strait up trajectory. The jets blew through the formation knocking the right wingman fort out. The jets go above the formation and begin to wing over for another attack strait down. Just then, a pack of P-51s come out of the clouds and engage the jets who are now going slow in their wingover. One of the 51s manages to smoke an engine on a 262. Norm described the next few seconds like an old movie where the film had broken and it was spliced together losing a dozen or so frames. At one point, the 51s were closing and in the next instant, the Germans kicked in their jets and were gone. The crew was shocked and never even imagined that kind of power. Norm said they dumped their bombs and flew home without a person saying a word in the several hour flight home. They all thought they were dead men walking. And they all realized that their mission was to "bait" the 262s into a fight with the 51s and see what they were getting into. Later, several missions were expended hitting the 262 factories to keep Germany from getting many up into the air. Hope I didn't bore you!

Stuart Varney did a show on how the Mustang came about and why it was so good. Alas, I couldn’t find it online.

There were multiple design changes made that had significant improvements. One sample was that the wheels retracted inward instead of outward like most planes. This meant the wheels were near the fuselage and allowed for thinner wings since they didn’t have to house the retracted wheels.

Thinner wings meant less drag which meant more speed and better range. Even more importantly it allowed the wing to utilize laminar airflow which is more efficient multiplying the speed and range advantages.

Other things…. Moved the air intake way back…. Less drag again. Bubble cockpit for much better visibility.

Used the Allison engine which was great at low altitude but poor at low oxygen high altitude. So a version with a turbo charged Merlin engine was developed for high altitude dog fights.

Did find this article;

Top 10 Things that made the P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft so outstanding

Aerospace Engineer Joe Wilding examines why the Mustang was so good. “I want to start with an embarrassing confession. With a lifelong obsession with aircraft and a few decades of experience …

hushkit.net

 

[ftlpsu]

Stuart Varney did a show on how the Mustang came about and why it was so good. Alas, I couldn’t find it online.

There were multiple design changes made that had significant improvements. One sample was that the wheels retracted inward instead of outward like most planes. This meant the wheels were near the fuselage and allowed for thinner wings since they didn’t have to house the retracted wheels.

Thinner wings meant less drag which meant more speed and better range. Even more importantly it allowed the wing to utilize laminar airflow which is more efficient multiplying the speed and range advantages.

Other things…. Moved the air intake way back…. Less drag again. Bubble cockpit for much better visibility.

Used the Allison engine which was great at low altitude but poor at low oxygen high altitude. So a version with a turbo charged Merlin engine was developed for high altitude dog fights.

Did find this article;

Top 10 Things that made the P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft so outstanding

Aerospace Engineer Joe Wilding examines why the Mustang was so good. “I want to start with an embarrassing confession. With a lifelong obsession with aircraft and a few decades of experience …

hushkit.net

Was the P51 the plane that the we swapped engines and the Brits provided the rolls royce one? Sorry waxing my truck in between these posts 🤣

 

[Obliviax]

Was the P51 the plane that the we swapped engines and the Brits provided the rolls royce one? Sorry waxing my truck in between these posts 🤣

According to Wiki it was a US built engine that used the Rolls-Royce design...

At the outbreak of World War Two, the British aviation industry expanded greatly. There was great need for the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine with shadow factories being established in Crewe, Manchester, and Glasgow. This was not enough to meet increasing demand with the British government looking to expand production using U.S. manufacturers. An agreement was reached between Rolls-Royce and the Packard Motor Car Company in September 1940 to manufacture the Merlin under license, with a $130,000,000 order being placed. The first Packard-built engine, designated V-1650-1, ran in August 1941

 

[Obliviax]

Stuart Varney did a show on how the Mustang came about and why it was so good. Alas, I couldn’t find it online.

There were multiple design changes made that had significant improvements. One sample was that the wheels retracted inward instead of outward like most planes. This meant the wheels were near the fuselage and allowed for thinner wings since they didn’t have to house the retracted wheels.

Thinner wings meant less drag which meant more speed and better range. Even more importantly it allowed the wing to utilize laminar airflow which is more efficient multiplying the speed and range advantages.

Other things…. Moved the air intake way back…. Less drag again. Bubble cockpit for much better visibility.

Used the Allison engine which was great at low altitude but poor at low oxygen high altitude. So a version with a turbo charged Merlin engine was developed for high altitude dog fights.

Did find this article;

Top 10 Things that made the P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft so outstanding

Aerospace Engineer Joe Wilding examines why the Mustang was so good. “I want to start with an embarrassing confession. With a lifelong obsession with aircraft and a few decades of experience …

hushkit.net

Pretty interesting paragraph in your post:

​

The Mustang has a great origin story. Prior to World War Two, North American Aviation had developed a family of successful training aircraft. They desperately wanted to get into the lucrative fighter business, so they started building a team to accomplish that. At the outbreak of the war, they had the early concepts for a fighter that incorporated much of the latest thinking in fighter optimization, including the radical new wing concept. In early 1940, with the war starting to heat up, the British urgently wanted more fighter aircraft, and asked North American to build P-40’s under license. North American, seeing this as the chance to finish their original fighter design and have an immediate customer, essentially told the British, “Hold my beer.” The British took a gamble on the offer, and magic ensued. There are three common ingredients for a successful rapid aircraft development program: a team with the right expertise, the necessary funding and tools, and a challenging but realistic deadline. The North American team had all three and it was off to the races! Based on the team’s prior research and design work, they rolled out the prototype aircraft in an unprecedented three and a half months, and it flew a few months later. To be clear, the design wasn’t perfect, including an early crash of the prototype. But it was very good. The team was able to work out the bugs and was delivering the initial aircraft to the British in October 1941, roughly 18 months after the contract was signed.​

 

[The Spin Meister]

Pretty interesting paragraph in your post:

​

The Mustang has a great origin story. Prior to World War Two, North American Aviation had developed a family of successful training aircraft. They desperately wanted to get into the lucrative fighter business, so they started building a team to accomplish that. At the outbreak of the war, they had the early concepts for a fighter that incorporated much of the latest thinking in fighter optimization, including the radical new wing concept. In early 1940, with the war starting to heat up, the British urgently wanted more fighter aircraft, and asked North American to build P-40’s under license. North American, seeing this as the chance to finish their original fighter design and have an immediate customer, essentially told the British, “Hold my beer.” The British took a gamble on the offer, and magic ensued. There are three common ingredients for a successful rapid aircraft development program: a team with the right expertise, the necessary funding and tools, and a challenging but realistic deadline. The North American team had all three and it was off to the races! Based on the team’s prior research and design work, they rolled out the prototype aircraft in an unprecedented three and a half months, and it flew a few months later. To be clear, the design wasn’t perfect, including an early crash of the prototype. But it was very good. The team was able to work out the bugs and was delivering the initial aircraft to the British in October 1941, roughly 18 months after the contract was signed.​

Pretty much what was on the tv show. They had a deadline of 100 days to build the prototype. IIRC got a week extension.

It was the first plane utilizing laminar airflow which is now standard in all aircraft,

Originally designed for ground support but flew so well it became a fighter. That’s why they had to develop a new engine for high altitude.

 

[Steve G]

Spoiler Alert!





I watched the latest episode, seven of nine, last night. Pretty clear this was a transitional episode as they are moving more into personal stories and characters. observations:

• It looks like the P-51 Mustang really helped out the B17s and give them some hope.
• Having said that, looks like Doolittle is amping up the danger more on that below
• Background note: Stalag Luft III was the best stalag in the war. There were 35,000 airmen there, 28,000 of those were from the 100th. 80 airmen tried to escape and this is what the movie 'The great escape' is based upon.
• Crosby is having an affair with a young brit officer (actually, under officer) and she avoids any question about what she does but we know it is important. Hope that develops too. I visited Churchill's bunker in London and they had a recording of a woman playing. She said that she was Churchill's executive assistant for many years (shows this in the Churchill movie Darkest Hour). Her story is that in 1945, she tells her husband that they are going to a party. When asked about it, she says it is Winston Churchill's party. He asked "how the hell do you know Winston Chruchill?" Her response "I've been his secretary for five years but that was top secret and I couldn't tell you." wow
• Looks like next week we get the Tuskeegee Airmen AND D-Day.

So on the new danger for the B17s, Doolittle wants the B17s to be bait to get the German fighters in the air so that the P-51s can knock them down in prep for D-Day. My friend Norm, who was the Bloody 100th lead nav when the war ended told me that one day they were summoned for a mission. It was just a handful of B-17s and by that point, the runs were hundreds of B17s. So the crew couldn't figure out why they'd just have a few forts go out, drop bombs and come back. Well, they are almost over their target when a gunner yells out, Bandit at 6 o'clock low. They look down and other are two german fighters going straight up. Turns out they were ME 262 jets. They'd never seen a jet before and never saw a plane that could sustain a strait up trajectory. The jets blew through the formation knocking the right wingman fort out. The jets go above the formation and begin to wing over for another attack strait down. Just then, a pack of P-51s come out of the clouds and engage the jets who are now going slow in their wingover. One of the 51s manages to smoke an engine on a 262. Norm described the next few seconds like an old movie where the film had broken and it was spliced together losing a dozen or so frames. At one point, the 51s were closing and in the next instant, the Germans kicked in their jets and were gone. The crew was shocked and never even imagined that kind of power. Norm said they dumped their bombs and flew home without a person saying a word in the several hour flight home. They all thought they were dead men walking. And they all realized that their mission was to "bait" the 262s into a fight with the 51s and see what they were getting into. Later, several missions were expended hitting the 262 factories to keep Germany from getting many up into the air. Hope I didn't bore you!

Overall the series is improving, its entertaining but its almost like they have to much material to work with and not enough episodes, As an example, they set up the whole downed pilot helped by local underground story line. That line gets very tense and then the downed flyers are biking down the runway. I was really hoping to see how they navigated occupied France and how they got out. Suddenly there are P-51 everywhere, which as an aside must have increased the chaos factor in those aerial fights exponentially, but suddenly there are P-51 every where and no mention previous of their arrival deployment, integration with B17s etc. Enjoying series, not making the same impression as BOB did. Series that has had almost no discussion on here was Generation Kill about Iraq war was really griping as well. MOA not as good as either BOB or GK.

 

[Obliviax]

Overall the series is improving, its entertaining but its almost like they have to much material to work with and not enough episodes, As an example, they set up the whole downed pilot helped by local underground story line. That line gets very tense and then the downed flyers are biking down the runway. I was really hoping to see how they navigated occupied France and how they got out. Suddenly there are P-51 everywhere, which as an aside must have increased the chaos factor in those aerial fights exponentially, but suddenly there are P-51 every where and no mention previous of their arrival deployment, integration with B17s etc. Enjoying series, not making the same impression as BOB did. Series that has had almost no discussion on here was Generation Kill about Iraq war was really griping as well. MOA not as good as either BOB or GK.

Totally agree. A big missed opportunity, IMHO. For me, I don't really care. I have been watching this more as a documentary than an entertainment movie. And by all accounts I've read, they are really detailed in recreating what these guys went through. For example, there was an episode that detailed a mechanic working on an engine as the B17 taxied for takeoff. This actually happened. The cast had a really difficult time filming inside the engine compartment and spent an extraordinary amount of time recreating it while also being able to tape it. But this may well have taken time away from getting into more detail on the downed pilot and how he got back to the West.

But to your point, it is like they said early "Hey, we need to hit points A, B, C, D, and E in the series". They got deeply into "C" and went "oh crap, we only have 9 episodes so let's move on to "D".

 

[ftlpsu]

Overall the series is improving, its entertaining but its almost like they have to much material to work with and not enough episodes, As an example, they set up the whole downed pilot helped by local underground story line. That line gets very tense and then the downed flyers are biking down the runway. I was really hoping to see how they navigated occupied France and how they got out. Suddenly there are P-51 everywhere, which as an aside must have increased the chaos factor in those aerial fights exponentially, but suddenly there are P-51 every where and no mention previous of their arrival deployment, integration with B17s etc. Enjoying series, not making the same impression as BOB did. Series that has had almost no discussion on here was Generation Kill about Iraq war was really griping as well. MOA not as good as either BOB or GK.

Nor Pacific

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

Overall the series is improving, its entertaining but its almost like they have to much material to work with and not enough episodes, As an example, they set up the whole downed pilot helped by local underground story line. That line gets very tense and then the downed flyers are biking down the runway. I was really hoping to see how they navigated occupied France and how they got out. Suddenly there are P-51 everywhere, which as an aside must have increased the chaos factor in those aerial fights exponentially, but suddenly there are P-51 every where and no mention previous of their arrival deployment, integration with B17s etc. Enjoying series, not making the same impression as BOB did. Series that has had almost no discussion on here was Generation Kill about Iraq war was really griping as well. MOA not as good as either BOB or GK.

Generation Kill was/is a great series. I think what separates BoB/GK from MoA is that there is a lack of internal tension in MoA. In BoB, there was the conflict/tension with Sobel and then Dike, and in GK there was the tension with Captain America and his ilk. In MoA there is an obvious tension between the crews and the leadership that was sending them basically to their deaths. Not sure why that isn't explored more. The visuals though continue to be absolutely stunning, giving the viewer a sense of what going on one of those missions was like. I had no idea that German flak was so effective.

 

[Obliviax]

Totally agree. A big missed opportunity, IMHO. For me, I don't really care. I have been watching this more as a documentary than an entertainment movie. And by all accounts I've read, they are really detailed in recreating what these guys went through. For example, there was an episode that detailed a mechanic working on an engine as the B17 taxied for takeoff. This actually happened. The cast had a really difficult time filming inside the engine compartment and spent an extraordinary amount of time recreating it while also being able to tape it. But this may well have taken time away from getting into more detail on the downed pilot and how he got back to the West.

But to your point, it is like they said early "Hey, we need to hit points A, B, C, D, and E in the series". They got deeply into "C" and went "oh crap, we only have 9 episodes so let's move on to "D".

Adding to this, I wonder if the writers and producers made a mistake here. In this case, the story is the story. There is no need to make one up. The task was to tell the story in a way that it makes sense. It feels like they lost their priorities, regrouped, reprioritized, then did it again. That made it a bit choppy.

I have read that they were greatly troubled by how to differentiate from crew to crew so that the viewer knew what crew you were watching during the scenes. I got lost on who was who, what Nav or Gunner was on what fort and with what pilot. So they'd say "Alice from Dallas took a hit". I didn't remember who was the pilot and what the subplot was for the Alice From Dallas crew so it all got garbled. I'll have to watch it again.

 

[SR108]

Adding to this, I wonder if the writers and producers made a mistake here. In this case, the story is the story. There is no need to make one up. The task was to tell the story in a way that it makes sense. It feels like they lost their priorities, regrouped, reprioritized, then did it again. That made it a bit choppy.

I have read that they were greatly troubled by how to differentiate from crew to crew so that the viewer knew what crew you were watching during the scenes. I got lost on who was who, what Nav or Gunner was on what fort and with what pilot. So they'd say "Alice from Dallas took a hit". I didn't remember who was the pilot and what the subplot was for the Alice From Dallas crew so it all got garbled. I'll have to watch it again.

Probably not completely unlike the confusion they went through on every flight.

Terrible war and terrible experience for these airmen. Not only did they live in a constant state of unknown regarding their future but they watched their friends and comrades die on a sometimes daily basis. My sister Stacy was named after my father’s best friend whom he watched die in a training mission accident and that was before they even flew their first combat mission.

 

[Steve G]

Adding to this, I wonder if the writers and producers made a mistake here. In this case, the story is the story. There is no need to make one up. The task was to tell the story in a way that it makes sense. It feels like they lost their priorities, regrouped, reprioritized, then did it again. That made it a bit choppy.

I have read that they were greatly troubled by how to differentiate from crew to crew so that the viewer knew what crew you were watching during the scenes. I got lost on who was who, what Nav or Gunner was on what fort and with what pilot. So they'd say "Alice from Dallas took a hit". I didn't remember who was the pilot and what the subplot was for the Alice From Dallas crew so it all got garbled. I'll have to watch it again.

So continuing the "to much material not enough episode" theme. Last episode ends with "you are bait to lure up fighters so P-51 can take them out" and this episode D day launching and noting in between, And suddenly out of no where the Tuskegee Air men appear and nothing about their origin, challenges etc. Could do a whole series on their experience. I have enjoyed this series, but could have done so much more with it. BOB was an ensemble drama about a limited number of characters so could fit into 10 episodes, the war was back drop to ensemble, MOA more about the air war and less character development so could use many more episodes to cover the source material.

 

[Obliviax]

So continuing the "to much material not enough episode" theme. Last episode ends with "you are bait to lure up fighters so P-51 can take them out" and this episode D day launching and noting in between, And suddenly out of no where the Tuskegee Air men appear and nothing about their origin, challenges etc. Could do a whole series on their experience. I have enjoyed this series, but could have done so much more with it. BOB was an ensemble drama about a limited number of characters so could fit into 10 episodes, the war was back drop to ensemble, MOA more about the air war and less character development so could use many more episodes to cover the source material.

Totally agree. Very like character development at all. Having said that, again, the t airmen and d-day visuals were incredible.

 

[PurposePitch]

Man has had thousands of years to figure out how to achieve lasting peace and has failed. For me, mankind’s only hope is God’s Grace and his biblical promises.

Nonsense. Thousands of years is the blink of an eye in our evolution. There's no reason to give up and retreat into that state of mind. Move forward, not backward.

 

[Obliviax]

 

[Obliviax]

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

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Holy crap, imagine being the bombardier flying the whole mission with that view (both good and bad)!

 

[Steve G]

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there is a restored B-17 that flies out of airport here part of the year. And it is LOUD!! I can hear it well before ever seeing it and by the time it's over head it is roaring loud. And that's just one plane. Cannot imagine how loud a whole flight would be coming over head. I garden at Eagle Heights which sits on bluff above Lake Mendota and when the B-17 in town will pass overhead my garden multiple times in a day, loud and rumbling, very very loud. Last summer friends daughter was getting married at this lovely outdoor ceremony at Edgewater hotel out on plaza that over looks the lake, And right at critical moment in service far off in distance and getting louder and louder is the rumble of the B-17 and passes over middle lake Mendota perfectly framed by wedding alter and setting and drowning out the saying of the vows.

 

[Fac]

This seems to be a recurring theme with many of these warriors. They join/enlist for patriotic reasons and/or a desire for glory or adventure, but when the horrors of war set in, they end up fighting for their friends and mutual survival. My/our generation has been very fortunate, we were barely too young for Vietnam Nam and were too old for the Gulf Wars. One thing that shows like this, Band of Brothers, and the Pacific do is illustrate to those of us that never experienced it, just how terrible war is.

Man has had thousands of years to figure out how to achieve lasting peace and has failed. For me, mankind’s only hope is God’s Grace and his biblical promises.

Hell, we can't even get Americans to stop killing other Americans.

World peace, never going to happen.

 

[Obliviax]

This seems to be a recurring theme with many of these warriors. They join/enlist for patriotic reasons and/or a desire for glory or adventure, but when the horrors of war set in, they end up fighting for their friends and mutual survival. My/our generation has been very fortunate, we were barely too young for Vietnam Nam and were too old for the Gulf Wars. One thing that shows like this, Band of Brothers, and the Pacific do is illustrate to those of us that never experienced it, just how terrible war is.

Man has had thousands of years to figure out how to achieve lasting peace and has failed. For me, mankind’s only hope is God’s Grace and his biblical promises.

1917 exemplifies this perfectly. These three kids join for patriotism but the horrors of war were hidden from them. the one kid gets issued a uniform that has a bullet hole and a nametag on it from the previous soldier who wore it before him. the horror of it all sinks in over the first half of the movie. If you haven't seen it, I won't spoil it but it is a difficult movie to watch.

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

1917 exemplifies this perfectly. These three kids join for patriotism but the horrors of war were hidden from them. the one kid gets issued a uniform that has a bullet hole and a nametag on it from the previous soldier who wore it before him. the horror of it all sinks in over the first half of the movie. If you haven't seen it, I won't spoil it but it is a difficult movie to watch.

Also "All Quiet on the Western Front" streaming on Netflix. Seeing how they repurposed uniforms was horrifying. I can't comprehend the sheer number of deaths. In the movie, a German general casually mentions 40,000 dead in one week.