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- Thread starter lobo lion
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They probably should have hit the kid that pulled his hair,bit him, and elbowed him with a year. It would help to see a video- if a guy did those three things to me it would be hard not to punch him in the head.
While the actions of Albuquerque Academy’s Jackson Taylor may have contributed to Santa Fe High's Isaac Beltran getting ticked off, and then throwing one or more punches, I would disagree with your statement.
Elbowing does happen occasionally in matches, though most of the time it's inadvertent. It's the rare wrestler that hasn't been elbowed. Unless it's clear to the ref that the elbowing was done intentionally and maliciously, it's usually nothing more than a stoppage to make sure the kid that got elbowed is OK. As for biting, that's another thing that doesn't happen too often. I've only had it occur a few times in matches where I disqualified the biter. Kids do claim every so often that they got bitten, and the protocol for refs if a kid makes that claim is to ask to see where it took place. If there are two rows of teeth, then you should disqualify the kid IF they're pretty sure the opposing wrestler did it. (I've never seen it, but I know of refs that have situations where a wrestler that was losing bit their own arm, and tried to blame the other wrestler.) If the ref only sees one row of teeth, the ref is not supposed to penalize either wrestler.
Pulling hair would be a technical violation, but not a disqualification (what punching is, or biting is). I've never seen hair pulled intentionally. I've seen situations where kid's hands got caught in their opponents hair (usually also caught in he headgear), but never deliberate pulling of hair.
Suspending a high school wrestler for the balance of a season is pretty severe. I haven't seen video of the incident, so I don't know the specifics. Each state has a different process they follow when disqualifications are involved. In PA, if a wrestler punches another wrestler, and is disqualified for it, then the wrestler that threw the punch would sit out at least the next match, and the extent of the punishment would be up to the AD of the school, after they met with the puncher. It probably has happened, but I can't recall a similar situation in PA where the PIAA suspended a wrestler for the rest of a season based on some action they took on the mat.
I'm surprised El Jefe didnt tell us about this. He must get this paper.
Tom, what would your call be on the elbows from about 20 seconds in to 30 seconds in in this match?
Any officials opinions are welcome
https://www.abqjournal.com/1274434/...uspended-for-season-after-throwing-punch.html
Hard to tell from that angle where the elbow came in but clearly pulled the hair after the first headlock. Regardless, have to keep your cool especially when winning. Sad this happened and realize that this is prob the most popular wrestling news in NM this year. Punishment fit the crime I guess but still bad for everyone involved.
Hard to tell from that angle where the elbow came in but clearly pulled the hair after the first headlock. Regardless, have to keep your cool especially when winning. Sad this happened and realize that this is prob the most popular wrestling news in NM this year. Punishment fit the crime I guess but still bad for everyone involved.
wrestlers seem to be doing that more and more. Not knowing the kids involved, or what had happened in prior matches on the same mat, it's hard to give any context to the environment. Based solely on what's in the clip between the 20 - 30 sec mark, I'd not stop the match, or make any type of ruling that involved points. At most, I would start talking to the kid on top, and say something like, "easy there," or "careful with the head"; something brief that indicated that I saw what they did, and they weren't going to get free reign to beat on the opponent's head.
would it surprise you to learn the kid on bottom has been under doctors care for the last 2 weeks plus treating a severe concussion, and that there are times even 2 weeks later he does not know where he his? Must be a soft head
the bottom guy did. those are tough situations for the ref, as their primary concern there is to be looking for the pin, and giving swipes. the bottom guys actions are illegal. A similar illegal move you'll sometimes see in that situation is the bottom guy digging into the top guy's face. It's a situation that would be caught if a 2nd official were involved in the match, but that's unusual in high school except at the state level, or perhaps in some elite tournaments.
yeah, the ref blocked the camera when the punches took place, so it's difficult to see what precipitated it. The top guy had used a crossface to basically take the bottom guy over just before the whistle to end the period. That's legal, but it probably caused some discomfort for the bottom guy. Beyond that, we just can't see from the video what the bottom guy did before the top guy threw punches.
I can't recall an incident I've ever had where punches were thrown while both wrestlers were on the mat. I've had situations at the end of bouts where they are both on their feet, and a couple of situations where either there was a slam inbounds where things were stopped and punches were thrown when they were both on their feet, or an incident where the top guy was kind of rough as they went out of bounds, and the bottom guy swung after they were both on their feet.
Based on the video, I'll walk back a bit from my earlier comment that "suspending a high school wrestler for the balance of a season is pretty severe." There's nothing wrong with that comment (it's pretty accurate), but Santa Fe High's Isaac Beltran appears to have punched his opponent in the head multiple times when he was on top. No matter what his opponent did to precipitate that, throwing punches like that is never acceptable.
would it surprise you to learn the kid on bottom has been under doctors care for the last 2 weeks plus treating a severe concussion, and that there are times even 2 weeks later he does not know where he his? Must be a soft head
the surprise would be that he was back out on the mat after the severe concussion. One of the handicaps, so to speak, of head injuries is that there rarely is any evidence of it, so the ref is not looking to be overly protective of the kid's head. That said, I still don't think I would have treated the situation any differently even if I had known of the prior injury.
Refs do discuss, amongst themselves, how to deal with the actions of the top guy that were displayed in the video you posted. Every ref has a different tolerance level for those actions, in part because there isn't a clear definition of what is, and what is not, allowed.
I agree 100 percent after watching the video. You have to set a precedent to make sure something like that doesn't happen again. I remember being bitten, elbowed, eye gouged and so on while wrestling and as much as I wanted to swing, was always able to walk away. Hard to judge this kid without knowing everything or being there but from the tape I think the committee got the punishment right.
Hypothetically if this happened in a D1 match, what do you think the punishment would be? Same scenario just D1 athletes. Curious to hear your thoughts.
I honestly don't know. I don't even know the protocol that is followed when a wrestler is disqualified in college. I could look it up, but probably can't do so today.
I was surprised he finished the match. I think if it stoppage would have been called, probably would not have. The kid had no clue where he was, what he was doing, if he won or lost.
I thought the first one was questionable, and like you said deserved a stoppage and being told to watch out. Bounding the head when his forearm was already on it was no problem. If you watch as he switches arms, it is a windup with body torque. For no purpose other than to punish. (and that was the entire match)
I thought the first one was questionable, and like you said deserved a stoppage and being told to watch out. Bounding the head when his forearm was already on it was no problem. If you watch as he switches arms, it is a windup with body torque. For no purpose other than to punish. (and that was the entire match)
I wonder if you understood me correctly-that video is where he got the concussion. He has not been on the mat since that night, and probably wont be for the rest of the season.
And it has been well discussed since here, to the point the OSSAA got involved, cut the clip to the 10 seconds, and sent it to all registered officials in the state for instructional purposes.
Just did a quick google search and it looks like it's just a disqualification and the wrestler has to leave the premises. Couldn't find if there would be post match ramifications. Thanks for entertaining the question though. Appreciate the time.
oh, I did misunderstand. I read your prior post as the guy on bottom had been treated for a serious concussion the previous two weeks.
so OSSAA sent that around to all the refs? Interesting. The PIAA (PA's version of OSSAA) handles it a little differently, in that things like this would be sent out to each wrestling referee chapter's rules interpreter, and they would present it at the next meeting of the chapter.
as I indicated previously, there is not a lot of clarification on that type of action as to what is legal and what is not legal. I would not be opposed to seeing beating on the head, even just a few bumps, as being ruled as illegal. I suspect that the OSSAA has already put in a proposal to the NFHS for this. Only time will tell how they handle it.
My HS teammate won his regional finals match on a penalty point for biting. He's the one who did the biting.
He got fish hooked and bit the guy's finger. Hard. Opponent screamed. Ref blew the whistle and gave our guy the winning point (with about 5 sec left).
Ref told rhe opponent: keep your fingers out of his mouth.
Most of the chapters start in October, and close formal meetings early Jan-too early for your process to be useful. When State Director of Officials sends out something this late, he feels really strongly. Talked to several officials who had seen video already, and the consensus would be UNR at minimum, with a lean to flagrant for the last one.
I was interested in seeing how it was called elsewhere is all.
a lot of PIAA chapters use to do the same. The PIAA decided that this was not the best method, as they wanted more discussion of what refs were experiencing during the season, as well as updated interpretations from the state rules interpreter, etc. So refs have to attend 7 chapter meetings per sport, and only 3 of those meetings can be before the official start of the season. (Another trick that refs did, especially those that lived near county borders, was to go to preseason meetings from multiple chapters so that they got their 7 in before the start of the season.) Anyway, the result is that meeting are spread out over the course of the season. Most (not all) of the wrestling chapters across PA have their last meeting in late January or early February.
I wouldn't draw too much from my comments. Even within PA, there are very different ways that rules are interpreted or enforced from District to District (PA is divided into 12 districts for sports). Most of the time refs are unaware of this difference, until they attend tournaments outside of their District. A good example is this year's rule change involving the top guy grabbing the foot while having any part of the head controlled. In some parts of PA, as soon as the top guy touches the foot, they are getting hit for an illegal hit. In other parts of PA, the refs seem to be giving a little more leeway, and not stopping action/calling an illegal hold until the top guy starts pulling the foot toward the waist.
thanks for the discussion. At first I thought when I saw that video I was over-reacting, cause it was my kid! A lot of medical bills gonna be involved.
A lot of medical bills gonna be involved.
wow. You'd expect better reffing in a regional final.
there is a wrestler this season from the HS near your current neck of the woods, who had an unusual situation at a tournament in another part of PA (I think it was Chambersburg, but I'm not certain of that). During a match, the two wrestlers got into a scramble, and during the scramble the hand of one wrestler was across the mouth of the other wrestler (who is from your current neck of the wood). At the end of the scramble, the wrestler whose hand was near the mouth of the other wrestler claimed he had been bitten. The ref looked at his finger, and while only seeing marks from a couple of teeth of one row, disqualified the wrestler from your neck of the woods. Then the coach went to request a discussion at the table, and the ref hit him with a warning. When he repeated he wanted to have a discussion, the ref disqualified the coach as well. Two mistakes by the ref:
- unless the ref sees a wrestler bite their opponent, the ref has to see two rows of teeth marks
- you don't disqualify a coach for requesting a table conversation
I saw a video of the match, which fortunately showed an unobstructed view of the face/mouth of the wrestler that ended up being disqualified. He did not bite his opponent -- not even close.
I can't speak to what the rules were at the time but the ref had a very good view of what happened. And it wasn't across the mouth -- he stuck his finger into my teammate's mouth at least 2 knuckles deep and pulled with it.
IIRC the other coach (Tom Best from Williamsport) asked what happened but didn't complain much.
IIRC the other coach (Tom Best from Williamsport) asked what happened but didn't complain much.
I mentioned this in a previous post that was probably 2-3 years ago, but I saw a Michigan guy get DQd at a home dual in Rec Hall back in 1976. The PSU wrestler kicked him in the face after they went out of bounds, but the ref had turned to walk back to the center and didn't see that part of the action. About a second later, the Michigan guy started swinging and the ref saw that and DQd him. I don't know what kind of disciplinary action happened afterwards.
it's tough to get in the habit, and tough to always remember while reffing, but the ref should never turn his back on the wrestlers. The above story is an example of why that's a general procedure.
Base line concussion testing is mandatory in Pennsylvania. Not sure about New Mexico. Putting a kid out on the mat who has had a concussion within 30 days, in a sport like wrestling where lack of proper hydration can lead to a detriment of brain fluid which helps prevent head injuries, is insane in this day. There is more than enough research at this point to expect coaches to know better. Way back in the day, in my boxing days, an in ring knockdown would be an automatic hiatus from the gym for 30-60 days. Surprisingly amateur boxing was way ahead of the rest of the sports world in that regard.
teeth mark story-a couple years ago at our kids state tournament, in the finals, the kid my wrestler was against started complaining about being bitten. The ref inspected the "bite", and was in the process of DQ'ing my wrestler. I called the ref and other coach to the table, then my wrestler. Proceeded to have my guy take out his double sided mouthpiece, which there is no way he could create bite marks.
No DQ, a stalling call on the other kid, and back to the match we went (lost anyway) A lot of red faces around that table. Kid apparently had been bitten before pretty severely, and still had the marks, and used it to get out of bad situation.
No DQ, a stalling call on the other kid, and back to the match we went (lost anyway) A lot of red faces around that table. Kid apparently had been bitten before pretty severely, and still had the marks, and used it to get out of bad situation.
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