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FC: Student loan debt surpasses $1.5 TRILLION

My answer to your last question is yes.

Loans should be capped based on a major, there should be credit checks/co-signers, and student loans should be discharge-able in bankruptcy.

that makes sense but not retroactively. I am okay with discharge-able if a credit check and co-signor are on the loan.
 
Many schools are already doing it including Penn state
Per Academic Year Full-Time*
Per Semester
Part-Time
Per
Credit
Pennsylvania Residents:

Undergraduate:
Lower Division including Associate:
Freshmen & Sophomore 17,416 8,708 726
Upper Division: (a)
Junior & Senior:
Business, EMS, Science, IST, Engineering: (b) 20,780 10,390 866
Nursing 22,484 11,242 937
All Other Programs 18,828 9,414 785
It only makes sense if the relationship goes through the entire food chain
tuition
scholarships
professor compensation
etc.etc.
 
The market should dictate that, at least in part. We don't need a nation of Women's Studies majors
The market does dictate that now, and that is the problem.[if there is a problem] Art History majors with a $35,000 per year job at Starbucks with little upside vs and engineer making $100,000k with a huge upside and both owe $100,000 in student loans. That is OKAY with me just don't suggest we let the AH major off the hook. [to all i am using Art History to be illustrative and not because it is a good/bad example]
 
College loans are a scam for most people. Too many horror stories of people graduating from college with a degree in psychology/sociology/fashion design with 100K in debt. What do you do with those degrees to pay back that money? Why is college so expensive? So observations/comments:

1. High Schools should have a class that teaches such life basics such as how to file taxes, complete job application, apply for a loan, basic finance including the implications of debt
2. Why do colleges require all the general education courses? My daughter is an occupational therapy major, not sure why she needs to take physics classes, no idea who that helps her provide better care to a sick or injured person
3. Colleges have too many administrators, they don't actually educate students.
4. Easy college loans are driving the increased costs of college. The college gets the money from the student all to willing to take the loan that they do not understand. All this money coming in, means more money to build fancy dorms and hire administrators. The college does not care if you can get a job or not, since they are not on the hook for paying the loan back.
5. Actually the college likes if you cannot get a job, they then encourage you to get a masters degree and take on more debt. Research colleges, they like to brag about the number of recent graduates that are either employed or in graduate school (see more debt).
6. The lenders are perfectly okay with providing the student loans. They are not dischargable in bankruptcy, you take it and it is a millstone around your neck.
7. Solution, make student loan debt dischargable in bankruptcy. This would result in lenders evaluating the possibility of the student actually paying the money back. No more large amounts of debt to pay for psychology degrees. Because of the decreased money coming to the college because of less student loans, colleges would be forced to get rid of administrators and stop building fancy dorms.
8. Disclaimer, my daughter will graduate with a debt between 20 and 25K and get a job with a starting salary of 70 to 75K. Not a bad tradeoff for her and does ensure she has some skin in the game. I have 2 kids in college, I have done 2 college searches and have seen fancy dorms, awesome cafeteria's, Olympic weight lifting platforms, electronic stock tickers, free laundry, etc. I survived at PSU living in dorms without A/C, chicken cosmos being fancy food and using the universal machine in White building to lift weights.


To answer bullet #2:

Because they need the courses that teach reasoning and logical thinking. My DD is also in OC therapy toughest math class required ? Stat not Calc. OC therapy gradschools need indicators that the students can process the information given to them in a quantitative and logical way physics would be the tougher math equivalent but is science based which is what the pre professional med programs are. Phys therapy by the way requires chem and physics --again indicators to succeeding in gradschool and also are weed out courses. As if Anatomy wasn't enough right?
 
Well, if that's the case I want my piece of the pie. I lived ridiculously frugally when I was young, not by choice, and managed to create a decent life for myself by saving, investing and building for the future. Don't penalize me for making good decisions. If we have widespread student loan forgiveness I want somebody to cut me a check for the average amount of debt a person is forgiven.

Mile High,
That same argument goes for life in general not just student loans. Back in the day my wife and i both had good jobs and still lived with the classic money for each expense put in an envelope and when that ran out so did that item for the month. We were making together twice what many others were who were living "higher on the hog" than us and I used to say WTF is going on. Now we are all retired and we are comfortable and they are living with SS as there primary source of money.
Not saying one is better than another, there are times i say I wish we had done that when we were younger, but we all make choices and should be expected to live by them.
 
I think most of the blame goes to the Gov't and HS education system today telling every kid they need to go to college. I'm not just talking about the average kid but also the kid who barely gets through. We have kids who so far below grade level in reading that they have no shot to make it but because our schools need to have 90+% college acceptance rates these kids are not even told about technical or trade schools. Where these same kids that all of us graduated with would go into a constriction job or become a truck driver or warehouse worker, today's kids are told they HAVE to go to college and that these jobs are unacceptable.

One of the reasons I stopped coaching basketball was the fact that all of these kids are told that they need to go to school to play sports, even d3 schools. It was damn near impossible to get a kid or his family to understand that these little schools are basically letting you play for 10-20K a year even after they give you some type of need based money. So if you aren't 100% serious about school, you're better off to just start working and not have the debt.

These kids are also mostly high risk kids who come just so they can say they played college ball but never make it past a year because they dont start as freshmen and their family convinces them the coach is an idiot so they leave. They still have that huge loan amount to pay back and most dont even try. I see 4-6 senior football players at my HS every year who go somewhere small to play and never make it to year two but have 20K+ in loan payments all because their coach and 'people' tell them they need to play college ball.
You are right but add parents in that as well. When my son was young he was a pretty good soccer player. Highest level travel team in the Atlanta area which has pretty good soccer. It started with one season, then went to two seasons and a week long camp then along came ODP. Olympic Development which was a lot more time and money. About half of the parents signed up drinking the cool aid that their kid would play D-1 or even better the Olympics. In soccer you play each year with your age group. We played in a tournament one year near D.C. when my son was 14 or 15 but i noticed there was a small kid that looked really young playing with the 16 year old D.C. team. When i asked they said he was 10. I told my wife maybe that kid can make it [he ended up on the US Olympic team] but anyone playing at only his own age isn't going to be on any Olympic team or likely D-1 soccer. My point is parents all have the dream for their kids and that also feeds the "we need to find a place where my kid can be a star".
 
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You are right but add parents in that as well. When my son was young he was a pretty good soccer player. Highest level travel team in the Atlanta area which has pretty good soccer. It started with one season, then went to two seasons and a week long camp then along came ODP. Olympic Development which was a lot more time and money. About half of the parents signed up drinking the cool aid that their kid would play D-1 or even better the Olympics. In soccer you play each year with your age group. We played in a tournament one year near D.C. when my son was 14 or 15 but i noticed there was a small kid that looked really young playing with the 16 year old D.C. team. When i asked they said he was 10. I told my wife maybe that kid can make it [he ended up on the US Olympic team] but anyone playing at only his own age isn't going to be on any Olympic team or likely D-1 soccer. My point is parents all have the dream for their kids and that also feeds the "we need to find a place where my kid can be a star".

Agree I cant count how many times I heard from PARENTS OF KIDS I CUT that their AAU basketball team won some tournament. It didnt matter that it was a Division 3 tournament and they were playing down. Parents living life through their kids....
 
In 2014, Germany’s 16 states abolished tuition fees for undergraduate students at all public German universities. This means that currently both domestic and international undergraduates at public universities in Germany can study for free, with just a small fee to cover administration and other costs per semester.

Higher education in Denmark is free for students from the EU/EEA and Switzerland and for students participating in an exchange programme.

Tuition fees for universities in Spain are some of the lowest in Europe and are set by the Spanish government. Annual tuition fees in public Spanish universities are generally between €2,000-3,500.

Public Universities. Average tuition fees for a higher education in Italy are between €850-1,000 per year, depending on the university and program of study.

No, lets focus on the students in the US who are foolish enough not to want to work at a gas station the rest of their life. They are the problem. Not the ridiculous system this country has. Let's all make fun of the Millenials and their avocado toast, blame the victim par for the course.
A little off topic but there is a reason countries like Germany, Spain, and Denmark can provide "free" college tuition to their citizens. The reason is that US taxpayers fund their military. We pay hundreds of billions of dollars a year to protect the NATO countries. Their defense budgets are almost zero. If the NATO countries paid their fair share for their defense then we could easily provide free tuition to our citizens like they do.
 
In 2014, Germany’s 16 states abolished tuition fees for undergraduate students at all public German universities. This means that currently both domestic and international undergraduates at public universities in Germany can study for free, with just a small fee to cover administration and other costs per semester.

Higher education in Denmark is free for students from the EU/EEA and Switzerland and for students participating in an exchange programme.

Tuition fees for universities in Spain are some of the lowest in Europe and are set by the Spanish government. Annual tuition fees in public Spanish universities are generally between €2,000-3,500.

Public Universities. Average tuition fees for a higher education in Italy are between €850-1,000 per year, depending on the university and program of study.

No, lets focus on the students in the US who are foolish enough not to want to work at a gas station the rest of their life. They are the problem. Not the ridiculous system this country has. Let's all make fun of the Millenials and their avocado toast, blame the victim par for the course.
In Germany, at least, not everyone gets to go to college. You have to (a) be selected to attend a college prep high school (called a Gymnasium) and (b) you have to pass your leaving exam (called an Abitur). Your grade on the latter determines which programs you can attend at university. My old penpal, for example, wanted to study medicine. She was quite smart--but that was so competitive, she did not get in. Also, until recently, a German University was closer to a graduate school. Bachelor degrees are a pretty recent thing there. Currently, only 11% of workers in Germany have passed their Abitur (ca. 2000). When I was in school there (as an exchange student) it was under 3%. It's a lot easier for a government to pay for 11% of the population to go to college than 50% or more.
 
2. Why do colleges require all the general education courses? My daughter is an occupational therapy major, not sure why she needs to take physics classes, no idea who that helps her provide better care to a sick or injured person

Given that occupational therapy involves how the human body moves and interacts with its environment, it actually makes some sense. Learning about levers and leverage, for one, and the forces involved can be useful.

Mind you, some of this is used as a weed-out of some students.
 
In Germany, at least, not everyone gets to go to college. You have to (a) be selected to attend a college prep high school (called a Gymnasium) and (b) you have to pass your leaving exam (called an Abitur). Your grade on the latter determines which programs you can attend at university. My old penpal, for example, wanted to study medicine. She was quite smart--but that was so competitive, she did not get in. Also, until recently, a German University was closer to a graduate school. Bachelor degrees are a pretty recent thing there. Currently, only 11% of workers in Germany have passed their Abitur (ca. 2000). When I was in school there (as an exchange student) it was under 3%. It's a lot easier for a government to pay for 11% of the population to go to college than 50% or more.

This is a good, valid point. The question is, is this system better than what we have?
 
1). you could refinance to a lower rate when mortgage prices dropped. Student loans don't have that feature.
2). The interest rate argument for houses doesn't work because housing costs have skyrocketed. For example:
if 30 years ago you financed $100,000 worth of home with a 17% interest rate attached, your monthly payment was $1,426.00.
if that same home today sells for $300,000 with a loan at 4%, the monthly payment is $1,432.00.
The problem is people having the ability to save the capital to put the down payment for the $300,000 home vs the previous $100,000 homeowner. With student loans of $1,000 a month on top of the mortgage payment, it is a lot harder to pull off saving and spending.

Salaries were substantially lower then also, so in your hypothetical, it was a much larger portion of take home pay, and a primary stress factor. You have to consider all angles.


As was posted earlier, college is not mandatory; housing is a necessity. Many kids attend because they have no plan; I blame parents and universities for embracing unfruitful courses of "study" and churning out droves of unskilled (but degreed) kids that boomerang back home, with debt disproportionate to what they received. Education and knowledge/skill aren't equivalent, at least not any more.

Far too many kids attend purely for the social experience. I've seen this up close and personal with acquaintances my two daughters (one senior, one junior).
 
we don't have a system, maybe we should

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Well, since he government owns it, I assume the governments annual deficit increases. And I agree about our deficits and our needing to be balanced, but maybe I'd be a little more concerned if we weren't giving billions in handouts yearly to others who don't deserve it.

When the government hands out IOUs, the government pays interest on them -- to the Chinese, Japanese, the Social Security fund, etc. The current interest on the national debt is $310 billion. That is just the interest paid this fiscal year, not the debt. That makes it the fourth largest federal budget item. The only four expenses that are bigger are Social Security benefits ($987 billion), military spending ($874.4 billion), Medicare ($582 billion), and Medicaid ($400 billion). How long is that sustainable?

You are proposing tacking another 10% on to the national debt to reward a class of people that did nothing in particular to deserve it at the expense of other more responsible people. I don't get why you don't see the unfairness of that. Life happens, people make choices and live with the ramifications of those choices. Made a bad choice -- tough noogies.
 
When the government hands out IOUs, the government pays interest on them -- to the Chinese, Japanese, the Social Security fund, etc. The current interest on the national debt is $310 billion. That is just the interest paid this fiscal year, not the debt. That makes it the fourth largest federal budget item. The only four expenses that are bigger are Social Security benefits ($987 billion), military spending ($874.4 billion), Medicare ($582 billion), and Medicaid ($400 billion). How long is that sustainable?

You are proposing tacking another 10% on to the national debt to reward a class of people that did nothing in particular to deserve it at the expense of other more responsible people. I don't get why you don't see the unfairness of that. Life happens, people make choices and live with the ramifications of those choices. Made a bad choice -- tough noogies.

Not only does he want to tack on $1.5 Trillion onto the national debt, but future students will want their debt to be forgiven too.
 
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When the government hands out IOUs, the government pays interest on them -- to the Chinese, Japanese, the Social Security fund, etc. The current interest on the national debt is $310 billion. That is just the interest paid this fiscal year, not the debt. That makes it the fourth largest federal budget item. The only four expenses that are bigger are Social Security benefits ($987 billion), military spending ($874.4 billion), Medicare ($582 billion), and Medicaid ($400 billion). How long is that sustainable?

You are proposing tacking another 10% on to the national debt to reward a class of people that did nothing in particular to deserve it at the expense of other more responsible people. I don't get why you don't see the unfairness of that. Life happens, people make choices and live with the ramifications of those choices. Made a bad choice -- tough noogies.

As a fiscal conservative, I agree with your position generally. However, in this particular instance, the combination of this being a false choice (I don't consider "get a lesser education and never allow your reach to exceed your grasp" to be a true choice), combined with the exorbitant cost of tuition being the government's own fault in large part, causes me to believe the government should do something to correct the problem.

How about making the repayments tax deductible? How about eliminating the interest on the loans? How about even allowing the interest portion of the repayment to be deductible (student loan interest has been deductible, but has a cap of $2500 (yay...), and is taken away entirely if you make over $150k). I pay tens of thousands into federal taxes for entitlement programs I'll never use, but I can't even deduct the interest on the education loan that made it possible for me to contribute that much into those programs.

At least some of those steps would make sense to most I would think. Is it smart for our country to want to profit on loans given to make our population more educated? I would say no, so 7% interest on government loans seems counterproductive.
 
Not only does he want to tack on $1.5 Trillion onto the national debt, but future students will want their debt be forgiven too.

It would have to be part of a complete overhaul of higher education funding to eliminate or reduce this problem in the future. We will never actually forgive all the loans, I get that, but there are some steps that should be taken (see above)
 
It would have to be part of a complete overhaul of higher education funding to eliminate or reduce this problem in the future. We will never actually forgive all the loans, I get that, but there are some steps that should be taken (see above)

If you want to eliminate the problem in the future, you need to somehow convince the universities to stop spending so much money. Not only are they spending a ton of money building new buildings, but the maintenance costs are very significant.

I was on campus over the past few days. It just blows your mind in how much they are spending on things that have nothing to do with education.
 
If you want to eliminate the problem in the future, you need to somehow convince the universities to stop spending so much money. Not only are they spending a ton of money building new buildings, but the maintenance costs are very significant.

I was on campus over the past few days. It just blows your mind in how much they are spending on things that have nothing to do with education.

You're correct, but I believe if the government stopped handing out seemingly unlimited funds for tuition, universities would be forced to scale those building efforts back. They're happy to do it now because the government has shown they'll give out however much the school wants to charge, so it's easy to find their projects.
 
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To answer bullet #2:

Because they need the courses that teach reasoning and logical thinking. My DD is also in OC therapy toughest math class required ? Stat not Calc. OC therapy gradschools need indicators that the students can process the information given to them in a quantitative and logical way physics would be the tougher math equivalent but is science based which is what the pre professional med programs are. Phys therapy by the way requires chem and physics --again indicators to succeeding in gradschool and also are weed out courses. As if Anatomy wasn't enough right?
OTOH they types of classes could be required to protect job, the professors. Not that just because something done in Europe is correct, most college programs in Europe are one year less than in the US, they don't take a lot of stuff not related to their major. Take Occupational Therapy, in many European countries this degree can be had with 3 years of college versus 5 to 6 in the US. They can practice for 2 years in Europe and pass the US boards and now are licensed OT's in the US. Think about that, 2 less years of college is 2 more years of making money.
 
Well, if that's the case I want my piece of the pie. I lived ridiculously frugally when I was young, not by choice, and managed to create a decent life for myself by saving, investing and building for the future. Don't penalize me for making good decisions. If we have widespread student loan forgiveness I want somebody to cut me a check for the average amount of debt a person is forgiven.
Bingo. Free handouts to those that are not responsible enough to manage their finances are viewed as unfair by those that have made sacrifices and decisions over the years in order to remain financially secure. The mortgage crisis was one example, tuition and loan debt might be the next. Silly us, buying things we can afford. When do I get my free money for being a responsible person?
 
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I must admit, I am shocked no one brought up doing porn to pay tuition. Don't laugh, guess who's (ahem) debt free and in Law School?

https://nypost.com/2018/03/12/what-comes-next-for-the-duke-porn-star/
(hopefully) Without bringing up a discussion about porn and that whole complexity of issues, I regret the struggles she must constantly face, both psychological and practical as she pursues her profession. The First Amendment gave her a choice with obvious upsides and downsides. I hope the upsides are worth it to her in the end. I know she made a choice and hope it was as empowering and positive as the spin many have applied to her story. But as a daughter's father, I really feel sorry for what she must go through day to day. Even if she's developed a tough skin.

Sorry for responding to that and risking opening another OT dialogue.
 
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"As a wise man once said, the world needs ditch diggers too, and it can actually pay quite a bit."

Yes, college is oversold and agree that lots of landscape folks bank cash but unless you own a ditch digging business, I doubt you want to make career out of it. Hate to see a 50 yo digger. Body breaks down at some point.
I worked in sales for one company that was full of people without college degrees, some of whom even had criminal backgrounds and were making 6 figures. There are high paying jobs out there for all sorts of different people and skillsets, you just have to work to find them. The world isn't going to spoon-feed those that are looking.
 
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Bingo. Free handouts to those that are not responsible enough to manage their finances are viewed as unfair by those that have made sacrifices and decisions over the years in order to remain financially secure. The mortgage crisis was one example, tuition and loan debt might be the next. Silly us, buying things we can afford. When do I get my free money for being a responsible person?

And what did tuition cost when you attended?
 
  1. HS students are being told they have to go to college despite many great opportunities in the trades and other areas. One of my best friends never went to college and ended up working his butt off in real estate and I could only dream of having his lifestyle.
  2. College students are being given loans like candy which they accept since they are told they HAVE to go to college. My daughter's friend constantly complains about her student loan debt despite the fact she chose to go to a private college. If I have $10 in my pocket I'm going to McDonald's and not Morton's!
  3. Universities can continue to increase prices since applications continue to increase each year (see #1) by applicants with access to money (see #2). This is basic supply-and-demand economics. It finally dawned on me how much cash universities have today when taking my younger daughter on a college road trip and seeing UNF had a lazy river in one of the dorm complexes and a beautiful outdoor pool in the other.
  4. The economy has been relatively stagnant the past decade which made the increase in education far out-gain the increase in starting salaries. I graduated in the mid-80s with a Mechanical Engineering degree from PSU that cost $16K and a job starting at $19K going to $23K after six months. My older daughter graduated three years ago with an Enterprise Risk Management degree from PSU that cost $112K and a job starting around $45K.
  5. Now you have $1.5 trillion in student loan debt with a good percentage not able to make their monthly payments.
You have a vicious chain of events in #1 through #4 that leaves you at #5. Until one or more of these events changes drastically it will continue to get worse.

Disclaimer: Like some previous posters, I have lived a frugal yet comfortable life. I live in a modest house, drive a car with 250K miles, pack my lunch every day and haven't taken many exotic vacations. These are values/traits I learned from my parents and do it so both of my girls can start life with zero student loan debt (6 years down, 2 to go). I am in the camp that if the government were to forgive student loan debt that I better be getting a 6-figure check in the mail.
 
Bingo. Free handouts to those that are not responsible enough to manage their finances are viewed as unfair by those that have made sacrifices and decisions over the years in order to remain financially secure. The mortgage crisis was one example, tuition and loan debt might be the next. Silly us, buying things we can afford. When do I get my free money for being a responsible person?

The banks got what they deserved during the housing crisis.
 
  1. HS students are being told they have to go to college despite many great opportunities in the trades and other areas. One of my best friends never went to college and ended up working his butt off in real estate and I could only dream of having his lifestyle.
  2. College students are being given loans like candy which they accept since they are told they HAVE to go to college. My daughter's friend constantly complains about her student loan debt despite the fact she chose to go to a private college. If I have $10 in my pocket I'm going to McDonald's and not Morton's!
  3. Universities can continue to increase prices since applications continue to increase each year (see #1) by applicants with access to money (see #2). This is basic supply-and-demand economics. It finally dawned on me how much cash universities have today when taking my younger daughter on a college road trip and seeing UNF had a lazy river in one of the dorm complexes and a beautiful outdoor pool in the other.
  4. The economy has been relatively stagnant the past decade which made the increase in education far out-gain the increase in starting salaries. I graduated in the mid-80s with a Mechanical Engineering degree from PSU that cost $16K and a job starting at $19K going to $23K after six months. My older daughter graduated three years ago with an Enterprise Risk Management degree from PSU that cost $112K and a job starting around $45K.
  5. Now you have $1.5 trillion in student loan debt with a good percentage not able to make their monthly payments.
You have a vicious chain of events in #1 through #4 that leaves you at #5. Until one or more of these events changes drastically it will continue to get worse.

Disclaimer: Like some previous posters, I have lived a frugal yet comfortable life. I live in a modest house, drive a car with 250K miles, pack my lunch every day and haven't taken many exotic vacations. These are values/traits I learned from my parents and do it so both of my girls can start life with zero student loan debt (6 years down, 2 to go). I am in the camp that if the government were to forgive student loan debt that I better be getting a 6-figure check in the mail.

To you and others against forgiveness, which I get, are you accepting of making loan payments a deduction? Zero interest? Making all interest payments deductible?
 
And what did tuition cost when you attended?
I don't even remember. I do acknowledge that the costs have gotten out of hand. But regardless of cost, anyone considering attending needs to do their due diligence and assess if the costs are worth the potential benefits. I did exactly that when I elected to enroll and that same thought process is relevant today. There are far too many students opting to go to college and take on massive debt in a major that has career prospects that will in no way enable them to pay off their loans. That is something that students can assess before ever deciding to enroll. They can estimate their cost of attendance and future earning potential ahead of time. But many enroll anyway and then afterwards it's all "woe is me!" and they act surprised at the situation they have put themselves into. These students absolutely share some of the responsibility for their dire financial situation.
 
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To you and others against forgiveness, which I get, are you accepting of making loan payments a deduction? Zero interest? Making all interest payments deductible?
Interest on college loan payments tax deductible ... absolutely.
I'm not in favor of zero interest, but would like to see better control over student loan interest rates. Implement a maximum of X percent above prime ... maybe around 2 to 3 percent above?! I feel terrible for the woman mentioned earlier paying 28% interest ... that is beyond ridiculous and more like extortion!
 
To you and others against forgiveness, which I get, are you accepting of making loan payments a deduction? Zero interest? Making all interest payments deductible?

I think the $2500 maximum interest tax credit needs to be increased significantly, and I think there should be incentives created for early/additional payments.
 
we don't have a system, maybe we should
There must be a correction in the "market" (def a qualified term in this case) at some point and I've suspected for a long time that likelihood has encouraged the seemingly out-of-control increases in tuition, enrollment and investments in infrastructure. They're spending the money while it's cheap knowing there will be government intervention if/when that correction happens. They're also creating some extremely valuable real estate assets they'll be able to leverage when the time comes. And a lot of that growth is bringing in foreigners and foreign dollars which is advancing macro political and economic agendas. US-based education is a pretty hot international commodity right now.

And given the low cost of money and inevitability of inflation, it's a great move for them. At least until students re-calibrate their priorities re: four years of country-club living between childhood and adulthood. Until there's real downward pressure on incoming student bodies, why SHOULD they make a change (other than in support of the students they're supposed to be prioritizing)?

IMHO, the schools are making a good gamble on human nature.
 
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Way too many posts to read every one of them, so I don't know if this was already covered, but not everyone has to go to college to have a good life. There are many examples of this, but here is just one of them. One of my sons is a graduate engineer working in the construction industry. He specializes in the power plant construction group of his company and makes a nice living after his 5 years of college. The superintendents on the job sites are almost always non-college grads and were raised in the trades and earn significant six-figure salaries. Additionally, the tradesmen earn excellent money as well, and most of them have zero college loan debt with which to deal. As parents we tend to push our kids into going to college... if I had to do it over again, I might have offered them alternatives other than college. Two of my sons have paid off their college loans within 5 years of graduating as they have made a real effort to do so (both their loan totals were in the $40-50k range), one of my sons is currently going to school for engineering and blithefully racking up debt. One of my daughters has paid off about half her debt and one will likely never pay off her debt and she isn't really making any sustained effort to do so and is liberally hoping for the government to forgive the mess she has made for herself (I won't even mention the amount, but it is staggering).

As an example, here is a link to Construction Industry Service Corp list of wages and benefits for the trades...

http://cisco.org/wp-content/pdf/2017 Wage Guide Expanded.pdf
 
I may even go so far as to advocate loan forgiveness. Which does more harm, he govt forgiving 1.5 trillion in loans, or our economy going into a deep recession/depression?

I spend $1000/mo on student loans. There are millions more like me. What if we were all pumping that money back into the economy instead of writing a check to Uncle Sam. Wouldn't the jobs created and taxes generated on all that spending go a long way towards covering the 1.5 trillion forgiven over the 20 years those loans would've been repaid? Not to mention saving us from the jobs lost and taxes not generated when our lack of spending affects those who don't have any loans as well. I'm obviously not an economist, but it sure seems like loan forgiveness is better for the deficit long-term than sticking with it.
That money you’re paying doesn’t go away, it is returned to the economy only through somebody else.the interest earned (from you) is taxable to the banks, or if paid to the government, reduces the deficit/debt. What about the people after you? Should they pay the full cost, or does their debt get forgiven too. Loan forgiveness doesn’t solve the problem-college costs are out of control
 
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This is a good, valid point. The question is, is this system better than what we have?
I don't know if it is better. It is different. Pros and cons for both. One of the cons for this system is that late bloomers need not apply. Also, it's harder for working class students to make it through this system--they tend more toward trades and the like. That's the opposite of our Land-Grant program which was designed, in part, to give blue collar American families the opportunity to "move up" educationally.
 
OTOH they types of classes could be required to protect job, the professors. Not that just because something done in Europe is correct, most college programs in Europe are one year less than in the US, they don't take a lot of stuff not related to their major. Take Occupational Therapy, in many European countries this degree can be had with 3 years of college versus 5 to 6 in the US. They can practice for 2 years in Europe and pass the US boards and now are licensed OT's in the US. Think about that, 2 less years of college is 2 more years of making money.
That's partly because their high school runs 13 years--at least in Germany. Also, remember that many European countries have mandatory military service, at least fr the men. They don't get out of school much earlier than US kids.
 
I think we've allowed a sense that it's somehow better to not work at jobs where your hands can get dirty. I know a lot of plumbers, carpenters, excavators, and electricians who make very nice livings who would say otherwise. Not everyone has to- or should- work in an office or sitting at their kitchen table.
 
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