Consider the Possibility That Trump Is Right About China

m.knox

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Before unhinged libbies scoff in utter disbelief, it's from extreme right wing rag The Atlantic. lol.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/consider-possibility-trump-right-china/609493/

And yet even as the current emergency has proved him right in fundamental ways—about China specifically and foreign policy more generally—many respectable people in the United States are letting their disdain for the president blind them to what is really going on in the world. Far from discrediting Trump’s point of view, the COVID-19 crisis reveals what his strategy asserted: that the world is a competitive arena in which great power rivals like China seek advantage, that the state remains the irreplaceable agent of international power and effective action, that international institutions have limited capacity to transform the behavior and preferences of states.

China, America’s most powerful rival, has played a particularly harmful role in the current crisis, which began on its soil. Initially, that country’s lack of transparency prevented prompt action that might have contained the virus. In Wuhan, the epicenter of the outbreak, Chinese officials initially punished citizens for “spreading rumors” about the disease. The lab in Shanghai that first published the genome of the virus on open platforms was shut down the next day for “rectification,” as the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post reported in February. Apparently at the behest of officials at the Wuhan health commission, news reports indicate, visiting teams of experts from elsewhere in China were prevented from speaking freely to doctors in the infectious-disease wards. Some experts had suspected human-to-human transmission, but their inquiries were rebuffed. “They didn’t tell us the truth,” one team member said of the local authorities, “and from what we now know of the real situation then, they were lying” to us.
 

DingerzForDaze

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Terrific read. Thank you for posting. The Chinese government put money before people. Put it before their people and the entire world's population. Time to make them pay economically and make them pay a big price.
That’s why Trump sold China our life-saving equipment and left this country even more short-handed ... money over people.
 

jferretti

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Before unhinged libbies scoff in utter disbelief, it's from extreme right wing rag The Atlantic. lol.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/consider-possibility-trump-right-china/609493/

And yet even as the current emergency has proved him right in fundamental ways—about China specifically and foreign policy more generally—many respectable people in the United States are letting their disdain for the president blind them to what is really going on in the world. Far from discrediting Trump’s point of view, the COVID-19 crisis reveals what his strategy asserted: that the world is a competitive arena in which great power rivals like China seek advantage, that the state remains the irreplaceable agent of international power and effective action, that international institutions have limited capacity to transform the behavior and preferences of states.

China, America’s most powerful rival, has played a particularly harmful role in the current crisis, which began on its soil. Initially, that country’s lack of transparency prevented prompt action that might have contained the virus. In Wuhan, the epicenter of the outbreak, Chinese officials initially punished citizens for “spreading rumors” about the disease. The lab in Shanghai that first published the genome of the virus on open platforms was shut down the next day for “rectification,” as the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post reported in February. Apparently at the behest of officials at the Wuhan health commission, news reports indicate, visiting teams of experts from elsewhere in China were prevented from speaking freely to doctors in the infectious-disease wards. Some experts had suspected human-to-human transmission, but their inquiries were rebuffed. “They didn’t tell us the truth,” one team member said of the local authorities, “and from what we now know of the real situation then, they were lying” to us.
We knew. Intelligence agencies could see traffic patterns severely reduced and scores of Chinese military forces being dispatched to Wuhan. The city has millions of people and it's hard to hide the impact felt in the province. Retailers were reporting in January that goods were no longer coming out of the province where the virus hit. Clothing orders suddenly shifted to Turkey and parts of Southeast Asia still unaffected by the virus. Drug dispensers like hospitals and chain pharmacies were suddenly left to fill orders for fentanyl and Dilaudid through other means. We knew early on that a major disruption was occurring in China and to argue that we were caught unaware of human to human transmission due to certain folks being muzzled is a mischaracterization of the information that was available from China. We were caught napping.
 

psuted

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We knew. Intelligence agencies could see traffic patterns severely reduced and scores of Chinese military forces being dispatched to Wuhan. The city has millions of people and it's hard to hide the impact felt in the province. Retailers were reporting in January that goods were no longer coming out of the province where the virus hit. Clothing orders suddenly shifted to Turkey and parts of Southeast Asia still unaffected by the virus. Drug dispensers like hospitals and chain pharmacies were suddenly left to fill orders for fentanyl and Dilaudid through other means. We knew early on that a major disruption was occurring in China and to argue that we were caught unaware of human to human transmission due to certain folks being muzzled is a mischaracterization of the information that was available from China. We were caught napping.
Oh, please, you’re a naive fool.
 

Cosmos

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We knew. Intelligence agencies could see traffic patterns severely reduced and scores of Chinese military forces being dispatched to Wuhan. The city has millions of people and it's hard to hide the impact felt in the province. Retailers were reporting in January that goods were no longer coming out of the province where the virus hit. Clothing orders suddenly shifted to Turkey and parts of Southeast Asia still unaffected by the virus. Drug dispensers like hospitals and chain pharmacies were suddenly left to fill orders for fentanyl and Dilaudid through other means. We knew early on that a major disruption was occurring in China and to argue that we were caught unaware of human to human transmission due to certain folks being muzzled is a mischaracterization of the information that was available from China. We were caught napping.
I disagree with the assessment. If that were the case (i.e., that the proper milestone markers were there in the supply chain to make a decision regarding healthcare) then why do we need the WHO? Why not shut that b_tch down? We were caught napping insomuch as we trust China to act like a responsible world citizen. That is where our government's complicity begins (think Clinton letting them into the WTO), and that is where it ends. Thank you.
 

jferretti

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Oh, please, you’re a naive fool.
The opposite actually. I am informed by those who work for Fortune 500 companies who knew this shit was coming early. To think our intelligence agencies were completely unaware while folks in the medical field, clothing industry and auto industry felt the impacts on China IN JANUARY is laughable and nothing more than an attempt to cover up for the incompetence at the highest levels of our government. And I have completely shifted my thinking on Alex Azar, who I thought was just a tool. Turns out he was sounding the alarms early and often. Unfortunately his concerns fell on deaf ears.
 

jferretti

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I disagree with the assessment. If that were the case (i.e., that the proper milestone markers were there in the supply chain to make a decision regarding healthcare) then why do we need the WHO? Why not shut that b_tch down? We were caught napping insomuch as we trust China to act like a responsible world citizen. That is where our government's complicity begins (think Clinton letting them into the WTO), and that is where it ends. Thank you.
Poor little U.S. Totally reliant on WHO. Seriously, we had numerous sources of information. We chose to ignore it. This does not absolve China and the WHO, but it also does not absolve our people to turning a blind eye towards what was there to be seen.
 

Cosmos

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Poor little U.S. Totally reliant on WHO. Seriously, we had numerous sources of information. We chose to ignore it. This does not absolve China and the WHO, but it also does not absolve our people to turning a blind eye towards what was there to be seen.
I will remind you China is a closed society. Don't think so. Count the urns in Wuhan. The tally defies the official account of the dead. Thanks for playing.
 

TN Lion

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We knew. Intelligence agencies could see traffic patterns severely reduced and scores of Chinese military forces being dispatched to Wuhan. The city has millions of people and it's hard to hide the impact felt in the province. Retailers were reporting in January that goods were no longer coming out of the province where the virus hit. Clothing orders suddenly shifted to Turkey and parts of Southeast Asia still unaffected by the virus. Drug dispensers like hospitals and chain pharmacies were suddenly left to fill orders for fentanyl and Dilaudid through other means. We knew early on that a major disruption was occurring in China and to argue that we were caught unaware of human to human transmission due to certain folks being muzzled is a mischaracterization of the information that was available from China. We were caught napping.
Nope, it was the HW Bush, Clinton, W Bush and Obama administrations that got caught napping. They foolishly believed that China would become a responsible global citizen and embrace democracy. For almost forty years China's economy boomed and it was because Western insititutions and the World Bank assisted that Chinese government in achieving a rate of growth of about ten percent. China before then was an economic basket case. And now this CV obfuscation is how they repay the West? The Chinese government has corrupted The World Health Organization and the World Trade Organization and that reality is well documented. There is quite a bit of bipartisan agreement as to that corrupting influence. And yet you ignorantly come here to post some silly bullshit you heard from the radicals at CNN or MSNBC.

Sadly jferretti, you are totally clueless with who China is and how they operate and how they lie. Your post is laughable.
 

psuted

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The opposite actually. I am informed by those who work for Fortune 500 companies who knew this shit was coming early. To think our intelligence agencies were completely unaware while folks in the medical field, clothing industry and auto industry felt the impacts on China IN JANUARY is laughable and nothing more than an attempt to cover up for the incompetence at the highest levels of our government. And I have completely shifted my thinking on Alex Azar, who I thought was just a tool. Turns out he was sounding the alarms early and often. Unfortunately his concerns fell on deaf ears.
When was Alex Azar sounding alarm bells?
 
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jrs1024

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We knew. Intelligence agencies could see traffic patterns severely reduced and scores of Chinese military forces being dispatched to Wuhan. The city has millions of people and it's hard to hide the impact felt in the province. Retailers were reporting in January that goods were no longer coming out of the province where the virus hit. Clothing orders suddenly shifted to Turkey and parts of Southeast Asia still unaffected by the virus. Drug dispensers like hospitals and chain pharmacies were suddenly left to fill orders for fentanyl and Dilaudid through other means. We knew early on that a major disruption was occurring in China and to argue that we were caught unaware of human to human transmission due to certain folks being muzzled is a mischaracterization of the information that was available from China. We were caught napping.
I’m ok with this post. You raise good points. Ones I generally haven’t heard in the news or on here before.

The natural counter would be asking who did respond well? The South Koreans were uniquely prepared because they got smoked on SARS and they’ve been on a war footing for 70+ years which leads to an incredibly compliant society. It’s not as if every western country is handling this well. To the contrary, virtually all of them are getting hammered.

To me, I look at the left trying to score political points, the right trying to defend trump, and trump himself being...well...himself. A sound bite factory. Say what you will about that s***show in a crisis, but it’s not the reason we are where we are. IMO trump had very little to do with this other than being the public face of it. What was he going to do, offer CDC help? He did. Shut down the borders with China? He did. I don’t give him credit really for either because I think any president would have done the same things.

Plagues happen throughout human history. This isn’t anything new. What’s particularly concerning is how this virus is so contagious and so deadly at the same time. But the idea that a global pandemic is somehow trumps fault. It just smells like electoral gamesmanship.
 
Before unhinged libbies scoff in utter disbelief, it's from extreme right wing rag The Atlantic. lol.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/consider-possibility-trump-right-china/609493/

And yet even as the current emergency has proved him right in fundamental ways—about China specifically and foreign policy more generally—many respectable people in the United States are letting their disdain for the president blind them to what is really going on in the world. Far from discrediting Trump’s point of view, the COVID-19 crisis reveals what his strategy asserted: that the world is a competitive arena in which great power rivals like China seek advantage, that the state remains the irreplaceable agent of international power and effective action, that international institutions have limited capacity to transform the behavior and preferences of states.

China, America’s most powerful rival, has played a particularly harmful role in the current crisis, which began on its soil. Initially, that country’s lack of transparency prevented prompt action that might have contained the virus. In Wuhan, the epicenter of the outbreak, Chinese officials initially punished citizens for “spreading rumors” about the disease. The lab in Shanghai that first published the genome of the virus on open platforms was shut down the next day for “rectification,” as the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post reported in February. Apparently at the behest of officials at the Wuhan health commission, news reports indicate, visiting teams of experts from elsewhere in China were prevented from speaking freely to doctors in the infectious-disease wards. Some experts had suspected human-to-human transmission, but their inquiries were rebuffed. “They didn’t tell us the truth,” one team member said of the local authorities, “and from what we now know of the real situation then, they were lying” to us.
I think we should just trust in the JEW GOD. As hard as it is sometimes, we all need to know he has a plan. Maybe he wanted to bring some of his children home. We don't know.

Place your faith in the JEW GOD and just trust his plan. He knows what's best.
 

m.knox

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I think we should just trust in the JEW GOD. As hard as it is sometimes, we all need to know he has a plan. Maybe he wanted to bring some of his children home. We don't know.

Place your faith in the JEW GOD and just trust his plan. He knows what's best.
Well Felli, feel free to go to visit the local synagogue this Saturday.
 

jferretti

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I’m ok with this post. You raise good points. Ones I generally haven’t heard in the news or on here before.

The natural counter would be asking who did respond well? The South Koreans were uniquely prepared because they got smoked on SARS and they’ve been on a war footing for 70+ years which leads to an incredibly compliant society. It’s not as if every western country is handling this well. To the contrary, virtually all of them are getting hammered.

To me, I look at the left trying to score political points, the right trying to defend trump, and trump himself being...well...himself. A sound bite factory. Say what you will about that s***show in a crisis, but it’s not the reason we are where we are. IMO trump had very little to do with this other than being the public face of it. What was he going to do, offer CDC help? He did. Shut down the borders with China? He did. I don’t give him credit really for either because I think any president would have done the same things.

Plagues happen throughout human history. This isn’t anything new. What’s particularly concerning is how this virus is so contagious and so deadly at the same time. But the idea that a global pandemic is somehow trumps fault. It just smells like electoral gamesmanship.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. It's nice to actually have a discussion instead of being called naïve. No way can Trump be blamed for the pandemic or the shortcomings in the lack of our INIITIAL preparedness. But he, like so many on both sides of the aisle, have been inadequate in the management of this crisis. The U.S. will have more infections and deaths than any other industrialized country on a per capita basis. That is unacceptable for a country with our capabilities and resources.

And to this day his focus and that of his administration defy logic. One small example: While there is ridiculous focus on hyrdroxychlorinquine, there is actually an acute and dangerous shortage of Fentanyl and Dilaudid, the two drugs used to sedate ventilated patients. Some hospitals are out of these meds and others are dangerously low. Without these sedatives patients will be pulling out their intubation tubes, a common reflex action. What is the government doing to make sure we have adequate supplies of these important meds? What coordination is being done? Or are we going to allow these meds to be bid up by individual hospitals like the we've seen with ventilators.

We would know more about these issues if the White House briefing room would be cleared of the WH press corp and stocked with medical reporters and doctors. But instead we allow this theatre of the absurd to continue. And that is on the present administration. They are in charge.
 

jferretti

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Nope, it was the HW Bush, Clinton, W Bush and Obama administrations that got caught napping. They foolishly believed that China would become a responsible global citizen and embrace democracy. For almost forty years China's economy boomed and it was because Western insititutions and the World Bank assisted that Chinese government in achieving a rate of growth of about ten percent. China before then was an economic basket case. And now this CV obfuscation is how they repay the West? The Chinese government has corrupted The World Health Organization and the World Trade Organization and that reality is well documented. There is quite a bit of bipartisan agreement as to that corrupting influence. And yet you ignorantly come here to post some silly bullshit you heard from the radicals at CNN or MSNBC.

Sadly jferretti, you are totally clueless with who China is and how they operate and how they lie. Your post is laughable.
Perhaps you missed where I said my sources are management types from Fortune 500 companies. They saw what our current administration could not, even with all of their resources. As soon as it was apparent in January and early February that the shit was down in China and they were not being honest about it we should have gone on red alert. China reportedly refused to give the CDC the information on the virus in January. Do you think we should have put it in high gear then? Instead of praising President XI on January 24th for his "transparency" do you think Trump should have confronted him for the information? Plenty of missed opportunities to avoid the unbelievable distinction that will soon materialize: the most infections and deaths per capita amongst all advanced countries. While still a crisis, this could have been less taxing.
 

m.knox

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Perhaps you missed where I said my sources are management types from Fortune 500 companies. They saw what our current administration could not, even with all of their resources. As soon as it was apparent in January and early February that the shit was down in China and they were not being honest about it we should have gone on red alert. China reportedly refused to give the CDC the information on the virus in January. Do you think we should have put it in high gear then? Instead of praising President XI on January 24th for his "transparency" do you think Trump should have confronted him for the information? Plenty of missed opportunities to avoid the unbelievable distinction that will soon materialize: the most infections and deaths per capita amongst all advanced countries. While still a crisis, this could have been less taxing.
Yeah, we should have put it in high gear back in January.....


How'd that work out for Bill?
 
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jferretti

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I will remind you China is a closed society. Don't think so. Count the urns in Wuhan. The tally defies the official account of the dead. Thanks for playing.
So there was nothing to be learned from Chinese textile and clothing manufacturers shutting down for 2 months? There was no significance to drug manufacturing grinding to a halt? There was nothing to be made of the alarming troops movements within the country to Wuhan? We have intelligence agencies for a reason and if they were unable to ascertain the magnitude of what was happening in China with the reports of the virus then that is on the administration. Who cares what the Chinese said. It's what they did that matters and it was plain to see that their actions did not match the rhetoric. That alone should have put us on alert.

All too convenient to say "Chinese lied, people died". It's quite an indictment of our intelligence sourcing if we can only say we were duped. And the sad fact is that it did not take sophisticated intelligence to figure this one out.
 

jferretti

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Yeah, we should have put it in high gear back in January.....



How'd that work out for Bill?
Good thing he does not run the country. Perhaps you will join me in voting the likes of DeBlasio and Trump out.

@realDonaldTrump

China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!

125K

5:18 PM - Jan
 

psuted

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January and early February. According to reports he was marginalized because he had yet to come up with a plan for Vaping.
That time frame doesn’t surprise me one bit. Tom Cotton was also concerned about the information coming out of China at the time as well. But based on the actual events and timeline, I’m not ready to blame the CDC for not acting earlier. They were trying their best to get information and determine the nature of the threat. I’m not a fan of the WHO as i think they were playing a “political correctness“ games with China, and relied way to much on the propaganda coming out of China. And to suggest that our intelligence agencies had a good handle on this much before mid to late January is ludicrous.

Once the “cat was out of the bag” with people traveling from China and then around the world, it was just a matter of trying to understand the characteristics and nature of the virus, and to figure out the extent, the location, and then how best to mitigate the damage.
 

psuted

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Perhaps you missed where I said my sources are management types from Fortune 500 companies. They saw what our current administration could not, even with all of their resources. As soon as it was apparent in January and early February that the shit was down in China and they were not being honest about it we should have gone on red alert. China reportedly refused to give the CDC the information on the virus in January. Do you think we should have put it in high gear then? Instead of praising President XI on January 24th for his "transparency" do you think Trump should have confronted him for the information? Plenty of missed opportunities to avoid the unbelievable distinction that will soon materialize: the most infections and deaths per capita amongst all advanced countries. While still a crisis, this could have been less taxing.
Oh, bull shit, you’re nothing more than a liberal political hack that has no clue on anything. You’re nothing more than an arm chair quarterback that whines about the great efforts of many honest people that were trying to mitigate a problem unleashed on them by China. You have no inside information, no solutions, no perspective, and no clue.
 

psuted

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Good thing he does not run the country. Perhaps you will join me in voting the likes of DeBlasio and Trump out.

@realDonaldTrump

China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!

125K

5:18 PM - Jan
Like I said before, you are a naive fool.
 
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LioninHouston

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So there was nothing to be learned from Chinese textile and clothing manufacturers shutting down for 2 months? There was no significance to drug manufacturing grinding to a halt? There was nothing to be made of the alarming troops movements within the country to Wuhan? We have intelligence agencies for a reason and if they were unable to ascertain the magnitude of what was happening in China with the reports of the virus then that is on the administration. Who cares what the Chinese said. It's what they did that matters and it was plain to see that their actions did not match the rhetoric. That alone should have put us on alert.

All too convenient to say "Chinese lied, people died". It's quite an indictment of our intelligence sourcing if we can only say we were duped. And the sad fact is that it did not take sophisticated intelligence to figure this one out.
Our intelligence agencies have done quite a bit to hurt their reputations. How is that Steele dossier looking?
 

jferretti

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Oh, bull shit, you’re nothing more than a liberal political hack that has no clue on anything. You’re nothing more than an arm chair quarterback that whines about the great efforts of many honest people that were trying to mitigate a problem unleashed on them by China. You have no inside information, no solutions, no perspective, and no clue.
Have we ever met? I could have sworn I don't know you. Thanks for the substantive response.
 

jferretti

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That time frame doesn’t surprise me one bit. Tom Cotton was also concerned about the information coming out of China at the time as well. But based on the actual events and timeline, I’m not ready to blame the CDC for not acting earlier. They were trying their best to get information and determine the nature of the threat. I’m not a fan of the WHO as i think they were playing a “political correctness“ games with China, and relied way to much on the propaganda coming out of China. And to suggest that our intelligence agencies had a good handle on this much before mid to late January is ludicrous.

Once the “cat was out of the bag” with people traveling from China and then around the world, it was just a matter of trying to understand the characteristics and nature of the virus, and to figure out the extent, the location, and then how best to mitigate the damage.
My point is that our intelligence agencies should have had a handle on this. The evidence of a shit storm in China was there. Either they did appreciate the danger and failed to communicate the concerns up the chain or they did express alarm and had no audience. Either way, this administration will not be covered in glory.
 

BicyclePete

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The opposite actually. I am informed by those who work for Fortune 500 companies who knew this shit was coming early. To think our intelligence agencies were completely unaware while folks in the medical field, clothing industry and auto industry felt the impacts on China IN JANUARY is laughable and nothing more than an attempt to cover up for the incompetence at the highest levels of our government. And I have completely shifted my thinking on Alex Azar, who I thought was just a tool. Turns out he was sounding the alarms early and often. Unfortunately his concerns fell on deaf ears.
Where was the House Intelligence Committee when all this was happening? Probably focused on a sham impeachment instead of monitoring the intelligence community like they are supposed to do.

Who is the chair of that committee again?

 

psuted

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My point is that our intelligence agencies should have had a handle on this. The evidence of a shit storm in China was there. Either they did appreciate the danger and failed to communicate the concerns up the chain or they did express alarm and had no audience. Either way, this administration will not be covered in glory.
That’s your biased opinion.
 

m.knox

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My point is that our intelligence agencies should have had a handle on this. The evidence of a shit storm in China was there. Either they did appreciate the danger and failed to communicate the concerns up the chain or they did express alarm and had no audience. Either way, this administration will not be covered in glory.
The Italian intelligence agencies should have had a handle on this too. Same with the French intelligence agencies. Same with the Swiss intelligence agencies.... Same with the Spanish intelligence agencies. Same with the Iranian intelligence agencies.....

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/coronavirus/
 
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