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Climate change is real.......

LOL - Hilarious watching you grovel around in your own dishonest delusions LaJolla.

Thanks for being the poster child for low information puppets, driven by blind bigotry, who can't think rationally.

You demonstrate the anti-science lunacy very well,

so getting you to continue to respond like an idiot is priceless!

Hilarious stuff!!

======

No thanks - I'll stick with the high road of rational skeptical evaluation of claims via the scientific method.

It's so easy to get you to play the fool, because that's all you've got.

Funny stuff... Thanks for the laughs!

;)
giphy.gif
 

LOL - Hilarious watching you grovel around in your own dishonest delusions LaJolla.

Thanks for being the poster child for low information puppets, driven by blind bigotry, who can't think rationally.

You demonstrate the anti-science lunacy very well,

so getting you to continue to respond like an idiot is priceless!

Hilarious stuff!!

======


No thanks - I'll stick with the high road of rational skeptical evaluation of claims via the scientific method.

It's so easy to get you to play the fool, because that's all you've got.

Funny stuff... Thanks for the laughs!

;)
 
LOL - Hilarious watching you grovel around in your own dishonest delusions LaJolla.

Thanks for being the poster child for low information puppets, driven by blind bigotry, who can't think rationally.

You demonstrate the anti-science lunacy very well,

so getting you to continue to respond like an idiot is priceless!

Hilarious stuff!!

======


No thanks - I'll stick with the high road of rational skeptical evaluation of claims via the scientific method.

It's so easy to get you to play the fool, because that's all you've got.

Funny stuff... Thanks for the laughs!

;)
giphy.gif
 
Oh my where do we begin
"Houston's rain is a result of climate change" - I agree with the premise that a warmer climate should result in more rain.Any thoughts about California's drought? So I clicked on drought .gov and it looks like a lot of the world could use some more warming as there are lots of droughts around the world. On the same subject where are those extra hurricane's we were supposed to be getting? I think the last 10 years have been the calmest in a century.

Whale oil vs kerosene- How much and how long did the govt subsidize the kerosene industry?

Did you really say wind energy is cheaper and more efficient than FF? If so why isn't it taking over the industry?

If wind and other renewables are cheaper why does the IPCC suggest the US and others should support countries use of them.
35 gigatons of CO2 and it is already affecting the climate. I'm sure you are aware that the US CO2 emissions were lower in 2014 than they than they were in 1994. So we have actually reduced our emissions while increasing the GDP by 70%. How did we get there? Nat gas not wind. If we can reduce our emissions over a 20 year period and things are still critical then we truly are screwed. Again does any plan put forth yet by the IPCC or any group stop CO2 emissions immediately which is what you say we need to do.

Oh my where do we begin
"Houston's rain is a result of climate change" - I agree with the premise that a warmer climate should result in more rain.Any thoughts about California's drought? So I clicked on drought .gov and it looks like a lot of the world could use some more warming as there are lots of droughts around the world. On the same subject where are those extra hurricane's we were supposed to be getting? I think the last 10 years have been the calmest in a century.

Oh my, maybe you should read my post again. It didn't say anything about "more" rain. It was talking about the increased intensity of the rain. Higher temps are not enough, you still need moister. If you increase the temps in a desert, you don't get more rain.

HeavyDownpours-Social_660_371_s_c1_c_c.jpg



Whale oil vs kerosene- How much and how long did the govt subsidize the kerosene industry?

All forms of energy are subsidized.

Did you really say wind energy is cheaper and more efficient than FF? If so why isn't it taking over the industry?

That can't be happening because you would see things like this:

https://climatecrocks.com/2016/06/07/uk-solar-outproduces-coal-in-may/

Solar power in the UK produced more electricity than coal across the whole of May, the first ever month to pass the milestone, according to research by analysts at Carbon Brief. Solar panels generated 50% more electricity than the fossil fuel across the month, as days lengthened and coal use fell. Solar generated an estimated 1,336 gigawatt hours (GWh) of electricity in May, compared to 893GWh output from coal.

Coal was once the mainstay of the nation’s power system but the rapid rise of solar panels and of climate change concerns has seen its use plummet, leading to a series of milestones in recent weeks.

Or this:

US-Electricity-Generation-Capacity-Q1-2016-570x425.png
 
the results of a major scientific study on the effects of anthropogenic aerosols on clouds are going to have large implications for climate change projections—

substantially lowering future temperature rise expectations.

Less enhanced cloud cooling means that greenhouse gases have produced less warming than the climate models have determined.

aerosol-cloud interactions are weaker than simulated by climate models – and perhaps even weaker than the preliminary [research] estimate.
the results of this new study seem to confirm the results of an analysis published last year by Bjorn Stevens of the Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology and pro which also showed a much smaller anthropogenic enhancement of the cooling property of clouds.

If this Stevens/Lewis result holds up, it is the death blow to global warming hysteria.
The findings being reported by Nicolas Bellouin show, in fact, the Stevens/Lewis result to be holding up quite nicely.

=======

The Climate Alarm Death Knell Sounds Again



By PAUL C. “CHIP” KNAPPENBERGER and PATRICK J. MICHAELS

Currently, details are few, but apparently the results of a major scientific study on the effects of anthropogenic aerosols on clouds are going to have large implications for climate change projections—

substantially lowering future temperature rise expectations.


In a blog post from the Department of Meteorology of the University of Reading, Dr. Nicolas Bellouin describes some preliminary results from a research study he leads investigating the influence of aerosols on cloud properties.

The behavior of clouds, including how they are formed, how long they last, how bright they are, etc., plays a very large role in the earth’s climate system, and is considered the weakest part of global climate models.

The climate model cloud deficiency results from a combination of scientific uncertainty about cloud behavior, as well as the modeling challenges that come from simulating the small spatial and temporal scales over which the important processes take place.

When it comes to the influence of human aerosol emissions on cloud properties, the scientific mainstream view is that aerosols modify clouds in such a way as to result in an enhanced cooling of the earth’s surface—a cooling influence which has acted to offset some portion of the warming influence resulting from human emissions of greenhouse gases (primarily from the burning of fossil fuels, like coal, oil, and natural gas to produce energy).

In the absence of this presumed aerosol cooling effect, climate models predict that the earth should warm at a much faster rate than has been observed. A large cooling effect from aerosols was thus introduced in the early 1990s as a way to “fix” the climate models and bring them closer in line with the modest pace of observed warming.

Despite that “fix,”climate models continue to overpredict the observed warming rate—which is bad enough news for climate models already.

But the new results, reported by Bellouin, make things much worse for the climate models.

His team’s investigations show that the anthropogenic cooling impact from clouds is much less than “assessed” by the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and also much less than employed by climate models.

Less enhanced cloud cooling means that greenhouse gases have produced less warming than the climate models have determined.

Another way to put it is that this new finding implies that the earth’s climate sensitivity—how much the earth’s surface will warm from a doubling of the pre-industrial atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration—is much below that of the average climate model (3.2°C) and near the low end of the IPCC’s 1.5°C to 4.5°C assessed range. This result comports with the concept of “lukewarming” (which you can read more about here).

Bellouin summarizes his findings:

Radiative forcing is a measure of the imbalance in the Earth’s energy budget caused by perturbations external to the natural climate system, such as the emission of aerosols into the atmosphere by human activities.

Our preliminary [research] estimate of radiative forcing due to aerosol-cloud interactions, based on satellite observations of aerosol amounts and cloud reflectivity, is –0.6 W m−2. The negative sign indicates a loss of energy for the climate system. The estimate of climate models for the same radiative forcing is stronger, typically larger than –1 W m−2.

What causes that discrepancy? Over the past few months, I have discussed with experts in aerosol-cloud interactions, and there are reasons to expect that aerosol-cloud interactions are weaker than simulated by climate models – and perhaps even weaker than the preliminary [research] estimate.

Bellouin promises a more formal and detailed release of his team’s findings in August.

As they stand, the results of this new study seem to confirm gthe results of an analysis published last year by Bjorn Stevens of the Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology which also showed a much smaller anthropogenic enhancement of the cooling property of clouds.

When the Stevens results were incorporated into a determination of the earth’s climate sensitivity made by Nic Lewis, the result was a best estimate of the earth’s climate sensitivity of 1.5°C with a narrow range of 1.2°C to 1.8°C. This is a significant lowering and narrowing of the IPCC’s assessed range (again, 1.5°C to 4.5°C). The lower the climate sensitivity, the less future warming will result from our greenhouse gas emissions, the smaller any resultant impact, and the less the “need” to “do something” about it. Also, Lewis’ narrow range of uncertainty increases our confidence that climate change will not be catastrophic—that is, will not proceed at a rate that exceeds our ability to keep up.

At the time, we wrote:

If this Stevens/Lewis result holds up, it is the death blow to global warming hysteria.

The findings being reported by Nicolas Bellouin show, in fact, the Stevens/Lewis result to be holding up quite nicely
 
Last edited:
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W h y the space between the m and y? Are you drunk? I don't live in a state where that is legal and I don't partake. It's odd how stupid the assumptions are on this site. I guess pointing out that Scientists also make money and pay taxes contradicts the statement you just made, but instead of addressing that you made a dumb assumption. You say I'm reasonable which I usually am, but I don't like false generalizations based on one view on a political matter that really isn't political anymore.

Sorry I don't tow either party line because I'm truly cannot get behind either morally corrupt party. I don't smoke weed and I do believe NASA and other scientific agencies/Universities over a political party tied to the fossil fuel industry. I know in some peoples world that makes me a liberal, but I'm just as hard on NJPSU and his give the world handouts with less work routine. Now if you want to engage in a rational discussion you are free to do so. If you want to make idiotic assumptions, don't cry foul when it is returned.

I just noticed this response. I don't read this as much as some you folks as evidenced by the number of posts. Sorry if I offended you but I think you may have been a little too sensitive to what I thought was a lighthearted comment. Now to respond.
1. If you read my response I never suggested anything about scientists and their income or taxes. You seem to quite often comment on the billions and billions the Oil and gas industry makes, how much their CEO makes and how much they spend to "tilt the scales". All I was pointing out was they also pay lots and lots of taxes and employ lots of people so they aren't all so evil. I also said "as an aside" which usually means I realized it was not directly related to the subject.
2.You claim to not tow either party line but also repeatedly claim the R's and the oil and gas industry are tied at the hip.[agreed] Considering your disdain for the oil and gas industry it seems a stretch to think you embrace many of the ideas of the R's. My point here is not that O&G and the R's are aligned but that you more than anyone else interjects the political piece of the equation.
3. Finally while I can't site any sources [maybe you or Rumble can] it would be interesting to compare the R's and D's in the O&G industry and in academia. My guess would be there are as many or D's in the oil and gas industry as there are R's in academia.
 
From Roswellion

This thread is a perfect example. Both sides of the debate trot out there scientific "experts" and the other side rather than reviewing the facts presented says
. bought by big oil
. corrupt academia
. not a climatologist.
. part of UN cabal
no one ever really listens to the other side

An underlying question is, "Is science for sale?"
YES! Unfortunately
 
the results of a major scientific study on the effects of anthropogenic aerosols on clouds are going to have large implications for climate change projections—


substantially lowering future temperature rise expectations.

Less enhanced cloud cooling means that greenhouse gases have produced less warming than the climate models have determined.
the results of this new study seem to confirm the results of an analysis published last year by Bjorn Stevens of the Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology and pro which also showed a much smaller anthropogenic enhancement of the cooling property of clouds.

If this Stevens/Lewis result holds up, it is the death blow to global warming hysteria.
The findings being reported by Nicolas Bellouin show, in fact, the Stevens/Lewis result to be holding up quite nicely

=======

The Climate Alarm Death Knell Sounds Again



By PAUL C. “CHIP” KNAPPENBERGER and PATRICK J. MICHAELS

Currently, details are few, but apparently the results of a major scientific study on the effects of anthropogenic aerosols on clouds are going to have large implications for climate change projections—

substantially lowering future temperature rise expectations.


In a blog post from the Department of Meteorology of the University of Reading, Dr. Nicolas Bellouin describes some preliminary results from a research study he leads investigating the influence of aerosols on cloud properties.

The behavior of clouds, including how they are formed, how long they last, how bright they are, etc., plays a very large role in the earth’s climate system, and is considered the weakest part of global climate models. The climate model cloud deficiency results from a combination of scientific uncertainty about cloud behavior, as well as the modeling challenges that come from simulating the small spatial and temporal scales over which the important processes take place.

When it comes to the influence of human aerosol emissions on cloud properties, the scientific mainstream view is that aerosols modify clouds in such a way as to result in an enhanced cooling of the earth’s surface—a cooling influence which has acted to offset some portion of the warming influence resulting from human emissions of greenhouse gases (primarily from the burning of fossil fuels, like coal, oil, and natural gas to produce energy).
In the absence of this presumed aerosol cooling effect, climate models predict that the earth should warm at a much faster rate than has been observed. A large cooling effect from aerosols was thus introduced in the early 1990s as a way to “fix” the climate models and bring them closer in line with the modest pace of observed warming.

Despite that “fix,”climate models continue to overpredict the observed warming rate—which is bad enough news for climate models already.

But the new results, reported by Bellouin, make things much worse for the climate models. His team’s investigations show that the anthropogenic cooling impact from clouds is much less than “assessed” by the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and also much less than employed by climate models. Less enhanced cloud cooling means that greenhouse gases have produced less warming than the climate models have determined. Another way to put it is that this new finding implies that the earth’s climate sensitivity—how much the earth’s surface will warm from a doubling of the pre-industrial atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration—is much below that of the average climate model (3.2°C) and near the low end of the IPCC’s 1.5°C to 4.5°C assessed range. This result comports with the concept of “lukewarming” (which you can read more about here).

Bellouin summarizes his findings:

Radiative forcing is a measure of the imbalance in the Earth’s energy budget caused by perturbations external to the natural climate system, such as the emission of aerosols into the atmosphere by human activities. Our preliminary [research] estimate of radiative forcing due to aerosol-cloud interactions, based on satellite observations of aerosol amounts and cloud reflectivity, is –0.6 W m−2. The negative sign indicates a loss of energy for the climate system. The estimate of climate models for the same radiative forcing is stronger, typically larger than –1 W m−2.

What causes that discrepancy? Over the past few months, I have discussed with experts in aerosol-cloud interactions, and there are reasons to expect that aerosol-cloud interactions are weaker than simulated by climate models – and perhaps even weaker than the preliminary [research] estimate.

Bellouin promises a more formal and detailed release of his team’s findings in August.

As they stand, the results of this new study seem to confirm gthe results of an analysis published last year by Bjorn Stevens of the Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology which also showed a much smaller anthropogenic enhancement of the cooling property of clouds.

When the Stevens results were incorporated into a determination of the earth’s climate sensitivity made by Nic Lewis, the result was a best estimate of the earth’s climate sensitivity of 1.5°C with a narrow range of 1.2°C to 1.8°C. This is a significant lowering and narrowing of the IPCC’s assessed range (again, 1.5°C to 4.5°C). The lower the climate sensitivity, the less future warming will result from our greenhouse gas emissions, the smaller any resultant impact, and the less the “need” to “do something” about it. Also, Lewis’ narrow range of uncertainty increases our confidence that climate change will not be catastrophic—that is, will not proceed at a rate that exceeds our ability to keep up.

At the time, we wrote:

If this Stevens/Lewis result holds up, it is the death blow to global warming hysteria.

The findings being reported by Nicolas Bellouin show, in fact, the Stevens/Lewis result to be holding up quite nicely
Poll, will the response be "bought by big oil", "not really meteorologists", "even at the low end the world will still end" OR "go ahead TJ keep spouting your nonsense" I pick 3 or 4.
 
Oh my where do we begin
"Houston's rain is a result of climate change" - I agree with the premise that a warmer climate should result in more rain.Any thoughts about California's drought? So I clicked on drought .gov and it looks like a lot of the world could use some more warming as there are lots of droughts around the world. On the same subject where are those extra hurricane's we were supposed to be getting? I think the last 10 years have been the calmest in a century.

Oh my, maybe you should read my post again. It didn't say anything about "more" rain. It was talking about the increased intensity of the rain. Higher temps are not enough, you still need moister. If you increase the temps in a desert, you don't get more rain.

HeavyDownpours-Social_660_371_s_c1_c_c.jpg



Whale oil vs kerosene- How much and how long did the govt subsidize the kerosene industry?

All forms of energy are subsidized.

Did you really say wind energy is cheaper and more efficient than FF? If so why isn't it taking over the industry?

That can't be happening because you would see things like this:

https://climatecrocks.com/2016/06/07/uk-solar-outproduces-coal-in-may/

Solar power in the UK produced more electricity than coal across the whole of May, the first ever month to pass the milestone, according to research by analysts at Carbon Brief. Solar panels generated 50% more electricity than the fossil fuel across the month, as days lengthened and coal use fell. Solar generated an estimated 1,336 gigawatt hours (GWh) of electricity in May, compared to 893GWh output from coal.

Coal was once the mainstay of the nation’s power system but the rapid rise of solar panels and of climate change concerns has seen its use plummet, leading to a series of milestones in recent weeks.

Or this:

US-Electricity-Generation-Capacity-Q1-2016-570x425.png
IMO - weak response I usually like your charts but not these. A couple comments
1.Kerosene. Not sure at the time of Kerosene there were subsidies to support that industry. This would be a good spot for one of your links.
2. UK wind vs coal. I thought we were referring to the "free market" choosing wind and solar vs Fossil fuels. Embedded in your link was the statement that the Govt. has PLEDGED to eliminate the coal industry.by 2025. That doesn't sound like a free market decision to me.
3. Most of your comparisons are wind or solar vs coal. I have stated repeatedly that the solution isn't coal but it sure as heck could be natural gas.
4 Finally all these charts on % or relative growth are apples to oranges. [I am sure you are aware of this.] A new industry vs a mature industry. Sort of like saying football team A improved from ranked 50th to ranked 40th and football team B slipped from ranked 5th to 6th. One improved by 20% while the other slipped by 20%. Doesn't mean team A is better than team B, or that A will ever be as good as B.
 
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Reactions: T J
Poll, will the response be "bought by big oil", "not really meteorologists", "even at the low end the world will still end" OR "go ahead TJ keep spouting your nonsense" I pick 3 or 4.

LOL - Yeah, we've seen plenty of those kinds of lame and false replies from the low info, anti-science and alarmist types.

They are generally clueless about the made-up assumptions used in the climate models and as the basis for the alarmists' exaggerated nonsense temperature projections.

If you point out the science, show specifically how the climate models are not grounded in science and post the latest ongoing research, they illogically attack the messengers and spew bs from paid extremist propaganda sites, that don't address the science that debunks the exaggerated alarmist claims.
 
I just noticed this response. I don't read this as much as some you folks as evidenced by the number of posts. Sorry if I offended you but I think you may have been a little too sensitive to what I thought was a lighthearted comment. Now to respond.
1. If you read my response I never suggested anything about scientists and their income or taxes. You seem to quite often comment on the billions and billions the Oil and gas industry makes, how much their CEO makes and how much they spend to "tilt the scales". All I was pointing out was they also pay lots and lots of taxes and employ lots of people so they aren't all so evil. I also said "as an aside" which usually means I realized it was not directly related to the subject.
2.You claim to not tow either party line but also repeatedly claim the R's and the oil and gas industry are tied at the hip.[agreed] Considering your disdain for the oil and gas industry it seems a stretch to think you embrace many of the ideas of the R's. My point here is not that O&G and the R's are aligned but that you more than anyone else interjects the political piece of the equation.
3. Finally while I can't site any sources [maybe you or Rumble can] it would be interesting to compare the R's and D's in the O&G industry and in academia. My guess would be there are as many or D's in the oil and gas industry as there are R's in academia.

You're assumptions are really just awful. This is about climate change and whether not I think it is real and that man is having an impact. The simply answer is I do and I trust NASA over chevron bought politicians. That is just me though. Does that mean I wanted Obama care? No. Does that mean I love the left playing to the minorities simply because they know they have their vote if they simply dump on the right...no, it's a joke to me. I will not vote for Trump or Hilary in this elections and I am more aligned with the libertarian party than anything else. The far religious right on the GOP ruined that part as did the hand out give everyone a trophy portion of the left. This thread and why I mock TJ is that for a decade now this has been his obsession. He doesn't have the balls to admit his occupation...why is that and how come nobody here on the right calls out that BS on him? I find that odd. He links blogs that run by people who deny climate change and don't even have a degree....period. Not in the field...not even a degree. If you want to say every scientist around the globe is on this...have at it. I'm not buying it.

More than anything I am goofing on TJ's OCD with this topic. He is literally nuts over it and a big reason why the Test board is a politics/freak show board.
 
You're assumptions are really just awful. This is about climate change and whether not I think it is real and that man is having an impact. The simply answer is I do and I trust NASA over chevron bought politicians. That is just me though. Does that mean I wanted Obama care? No. Does that mean I love the left playing to the minorities simply because they know they have their vote if they simply dump on the right...no, it's a joke to me. I will not vote for Trump or Hilary in this elections and I am more aligned with the libertarian party than anything else. The far religious right on the GOP ruined that part as did the hand out give everyone a trophy portion of the left. This thread and why I mock TJ is that for a decade now this has been his obsession. He doesn't have the balls to admit his occupation...why is that and how come nobody here on the right calls out that BS on him? I find that odd. He links blogs that run by people who deny climate change and don't even have a degree....period. Not in the field...not even a degree. If you want to say every scientist around the globe is on this...have at it. I'm not buying it.

More than anything I am goofing on TJ's OCD with this topic. He is literally nuts over it and a big reason why the Test board is a politics/freak show board.


The problem is LaJolla is you can't think rationally. Your assumptions are false and you make up lies so you don't have to face reality.

To repeat - I support the scientific method, which is what science is all about. It uses independent, skeptical review of claims via valid statistical methods and evaluation vs experiment and real world data. Note: That Is NOT what the climate models are based upon. They are NOT grounded in science.

You're too stupid to realize that hundreds of studies and millions of real world data readings are the focus of the reviews and analysis that does not support the alarmists' NON-Science based propaganda.

=====

You are also clueless about NASA.

NASA GISS is NOT your daddy's NASA. It is a separate group. These guys have been outed for decades, making moronic claims that have been proven false, over and over again.

The atmospheric satellite data you reject is solely funded by the real NASA, NOAA, the National Science Foundation and government grants, with no funding from any special interest groups. But you are too stupid to even look, before you spew you moronic lies about big oil.

Ie... It is hilarious watching you, because you are not only clueless and dishonest, you are totally unwilling to learn.

As such, the climate extremists have you pegged and make you dance like a mindless puppet. They are well versed in misleading propaganda techniques and you don't even know you're being had.

That's just the way it is for you.
You don't have to remain ignorant and irrelevant, but you intentionally choose to remain so.

Your choice of course, but your position is not based in reason, logic or science. Nobody can help you, if you stubbornly refuse to use your brain.
 
The problem is LaJolla is you can't think rationally. Your assumptions are false and you make up lies so you don't have to face reality.

To repeat - I support the scientific method, which is what science is all about. It uses independent, skeptical review of claims via valid statistical methods and evaluation vs experiment and real world data. Note: That Is NOT what the climate models are based upon. They are NOT grounded in science.

You're too stupid to realize that hundreds of studies and millions of real world data readings are the focus of the reviews and analysis that does not support the alarmists' NON-Science based propaganda.

=====

You are also clueless about NASA.

NASA GISS is NOT your daddy's NASA. It is a separate group. These guys have been outed for decades, making moronic claims that have been proven false, over and over again.

The atmospheric satellite data you reject is solely funded by the real NASA, NOAA, the National Science Foundation and government grants, with no funding from any special interest groups. But you are too stupid to even look, before you spew you moronic lies about big oil.

Ie... It is hilarious watching you, because you are not only clueless and dishonest, you are totally unwilling to learn.

As such, the climate extremists have you pegged and make you dance like a mindless puppet. They are well versed in misleading propaganda techniques and you don't even know you're being had.

That's just the way it is for you.
You don't have to remain ignorant and irrelevant, but you intentionally choose to remain so.

Your choice of course, but your position is not based in reason, logic or science. Nobody can help you, if you stubbornly refuse to use your brain.
giphy.gif
 
Lol - Again you prove the points.
Thanks!
You are ignorant, irrational and are brain/washed to not think and instead to respond like a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

Hilarious stuff!
 
You're assumptions are really just awful. This is about climate change and whether not I think it is real and that man is having an impact. The simply answer is I do and I trust NASA over chevron bought politicians. That is just me though. Does that mean I wanted Obama care? No. Does that mean I love the left playing to the minorities simply because they know they have their vote if they simply dump on the right...no, it's a joke to me. I will not vote for Trump or Hilary in this elections and I am more aligned with the libertarian party than anything else. The far religious right on the GOP ruined that part as did the hand out give everyone a trophy portion of the left. This thread and why I mock TJ is that for a decade now this has been his obsession. He doesn't have the balls to admit his occupation...why is that and how come nobody here on the right calls out that BS on him? I find that odd. He links blogs that run by people who deny climate change and don't even have a degree....period. Not in the field...not even a degree. If you want to say every scientist around the globe is on this...have at it. I'm not buying it.

More than anything I am goofing on TJ's OCD with this topic. He is literally nuts over it and a big reason why the Test board is a politics/freak show board.

Well maybe we have more in common than it seems. I too will not vote for H or D and am more Libertarian than anything. If your response had just stopped at you trust NASA over Chevron, it would have been completely logical. I also thought this thread was about Climate Change. I may have missed it in threads but it seems it is your responses the always invokes the politicians. No big deal.
AS AN ASIDE it is hard as a libertarian to address something like climate change. At it's core the traditional libertarian stance would be let the market dictate the winners and losers. However if you let the market dictate the winners and losers the cheapest fuel will always win because the public is very shortsighted and IF AGW is real that presents a real danger.
I think the true libertarian would say the govt.'s job is to educate and not regulate and through education the market will demand wind, solar and other renewables even if the prices go higher because they want less CO2. Not to beat a dead horse but that is a major reason why I think Nat gas makes so much sense. It provides an immediate cheaper fuel [public acceptance] and is much cleaner and leads to lower CO2. As i stated before the US CO2 emissions were lower in 2014 than anytime in the last 20 years in large part due to nat gas, and that was with GDP being up 70% in the same time period.
 
Well maybe we have more in common than it seems. I too will not vote for H or D and am more Libertarian than anything. If your response had just stopped at you trust NASA over Chevron, it would have been completely logical. I also thought this thread was about Climate Change. I may have missed it in threads but it seems it is your responses the always invokes the politicians. No big deal.
AS AN ASIDE it is hard as a libertarian to address something like climate change. At it's core the traditional libertarian stance would be let the market dictate the winners and losers. However if you let the market dictate the winners and losers the cheapest fuel will always win because the public is very shortsighted and IF AGW is real that presents a real danger.
I think the true libertarian would say the govt.'s job is to educate and not regulate and through education the market will demand wind, solar and other renewables even if the prices go higher because they want less CO2. Not to beat a dead horse but that is a major reason why I think Nat gas makes so much sense. It provides an immediate cheaper fuel [public acceptance] and is much cleaner and leads to lower CO2. As i stated before the US CO2 emissions were lower in 2014 than anytime in the last 20 years in large part due to nat gas, and that was with GDP being up 70% in the same time period.
Gary Johnson or bust!!!!!
 
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IMO - weak response I usually like your charts but not these. A couple comments
1.Kerosene. Not sure at the time of Kerosene there were subsidies to support that industry. This would be a good spot for one of your links.
2. UK wind vs coal. I thought we were referring to the "free market" choosing wind and solar vs Fossil fuels. Embedded in your link was the statement that the Govt. has PLEDGED to eliminate the coal industry.by 2025. That doesn't sound like a free market decision to me.
3. Most of your comparisons are wind or solar vs coal. I have stated repeatedly that the solution isn't coal but it sure as heck could be natural gas.
4 Finally all these charts on % or relative growth are apples to oranges. [I am sure you are aware of this.] A new industry vs a mature industry. Sort of like saying football team A improved from ranked 50th to ranked 40th and football team B slipped from ranked 5th to 6th. One improved by 20% while the other slipped by 20%. Doesn't mean team A is better than team B, or that A will ever be as good as B.

1.Kerosene. Not sure at the time of Kerosene there were subsidies to support that industry. This would be a good spot for one of your links.

http://www.dailyclimate.org/tdc-newsroom/2014/03/whale-oil-myth


Meanwhile, new products were coming onto the market. One of these, "camphene," is almost unknown today but was by far the most popular lamp fuel in the 1840s and '50s. Made of turpentine and alcohol, camphene and similar fuels reached about 100 million gallons per year by 1862.

That year, the oil industry got the first of many helping hands from Uncle Sam. Congress slapped a $2 per gallon tax on alcohol to help fund the Civil War, and that was that: Kerosene, taxed only at 10 cents a gallon, swept camphene off the market and into history books.
2. UK wind vs coal. I thought we were referring to the "free market" choosing wind and solar vs Fossil fuels. Embedded in your link was the statement that the Govt. has PLEDGED to eliminate the coal industry.by 2025. That doesn't sound like a free market decision to me.

All forms of energy of subsidized. You would never be able to privately finance and insure a nuclear power plant for example.


3. Most of your comparisons are wind or solar vs coal. I have stated repeatedly that the solution isn't coal but it sure as heck could be natural gas.

Natural gas isn't cheap in Europe like it is in the US. All fossils, even natural gas will eventually lose out to solar and wind.

4 Finally all these charts on % or relative growth are apples to oranges. [I am sure you are aware of this.] A new industry vs a mature industry.

Isn't that how every industry starts? Why would wind and solar be any different?

Besides I was responding to this question - Did you really say wind energy is cheaper and more efficient than FF? If so why isn't it taking over the industry?

When you see renewables growing and fossils fuels shrinking would that qualify as "taking over the industry"?

Sort of like saying football team A improved from ranked 50th to ranked 40th and football team B slipped from ranked 5th to 6th. One improved by 20% while the other slipped by 20%. Doesn't mean team A is better than team B, or that A will ever be as good as B.

Except for one big difference - the more team A plays the less it needs to pay it's players. For team B it has to continually increase spending on it's players the more it plays. Which team is going to find success in the long run?

Solar panel costs go down 20% for every doubling of production. It's called Swanson law. Currently just over 1% of the worlds electricity is generated via solar pv panels. How many doublings are possible?

1. The cost of wind power has decreased 58% over the past 5 years

Wind energy is one of the most affordable forms of electricity today, and the Lazardreport shows that it is also the most cost-effective generation option for reducing carbon emissions. Lazard’s numbers show the levelized cost of energy for wind power has decreased 58% since 2009, and 15% in the last year alone.

 
1.

3. Most of your comparisons are wind or solar vs coal. I have stated repeatedly that the solution isn't coal but it sure as heck could be natural gas.

Natural gas isn't cheap in Europe like it is in the US. All fossils, even natural gas will eventually lose out to solar and wind.


1. The cost of wind power has decreased 58% over the past 5 years

Wind energy is one of the most affordable forms of electricity today, and the Lazardreport shows that it is also the most cost-effective generation option for reducing carbon emissions. Lazard’s numbers show the levelized cost of energy for wind power has decreased 58% since 2009, and 15% in the last year alone.

British Renewables Chief: “England is not Windy Enough”



by Eric Worrall

The British CEO of RenewableUK, the British Wind Industry Trade Association, thinks England is not windy enough to justify building any more onshore wind turbines.

England is not windy enough to justify building any more onshore wind turbines, the chief executive of wind industry trade body has admitted.
 
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1.Kerosene. Not sure at the time of Kerosene there were subsidies to support that industry. This would be a good spot for one of your links.

http://www.dailyclimate.org/tdc-newsroom/2014/03/whale-oil-myth


Meanwhile, new products were coming onto the market. One of these, "camphene," is almost unknown today but was by far the most popular lamp fuel in the 1840s and '50s. Made of turpentine and alcohol, camphene and similar fuels reached about 100 million gallons per year by 1862.

That year, the oil industry got the first of many helping hands from Uncle Sam. Congress slapped a $2 per gallon tax on alcohol to help fund the Civil War, and that was that: Kerosene, taxed only at 10 cents a gallon, swept camphene off the market and into history books.
2. UK wind vs coal. I thought we were referring to the "free market" choosing wind and solar vs Fossil fuels. Embedded in your link was the statement that the Govt. has PLEDGED to eliminate the coal industry.by 2025. That doesn't sound like a free market decision to me.

All forms of energy of subsidized. You would never be able to privately finance and insure a nuclear power plant for example.


3. Most of your comparisons are wind or solar vs coal. I have stated repeatedly that the solution isn't coal but it sure as heck could be natural gas.

Natural gas isn't cheap in Europe like it is in the US. All fossils, even natural gas will eventually lose out to solar and wind.

4 Finally all these charts on % or relative growth are apples to oranges. [I am sure you are aware of this.] A new industry vs a mature industry.

Isn't that how every industry starts? Why would wind and solar be any different?

Besides I was responding to this question - Did you really say wind energy is cheaper and more efficient than FF? If so why isn't it taking over the industry?

When you see renewables growing and fossils fuels shrinking would that qualify as "taking over the industry"?

Sort of like saying football team A improved from ranked 50th to ranked 40th and football team B slipped from ranked 5th to 6th. One improved by 20% while the other slipped by 20%. Doesn't mean team A is better than team B, or that A will ever be as good as B.

Except for one big difference - the more team A plays the less it needs to pay it's players. For team B it has to continually increase spending on it's players the more it plays. Which team is going to find success in the long run?

Solar panel costs go down 20% for every doubling of production. It's called Swanson law. Currently just over 1% of the worlds electricity is generated via solar pv panels. How many doublings are possible?

1. The cost of wind power has decreased 58% over the past 5 years

Wind energy is one of the most affordable forms of electricity today, and the Lazardreport shows that it is also the most cost-effective generation option for reducing carbon emissions. Lazard’s numbers show the levelized cost of energy for wind power has decreased 58% since 2009, and 15% in the last year alone.

I knew you could come through with a good link. IMO it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that a tax on alcohol to help fund the civil war was a subsidy to oil and gas but that is my opinion.
I am against any subsidies to any industry so if there are oil and gas subsidies let's get rid of them too.
If wind and solar become the cheapest form of energy, great. no beef here. Just don't legislate OR regulate them into that position. Let the best energy win. If wind is now cheaper than nat gas in Europe let them go for it.
I don't think a combined 3% of energy use is taking over the energy business, anymore than I think the University of Toledo is on it's way to consistently beating Ohio State even though Toledo improved it's ranking while OSU did not..
I did like the whale oil story though.
 
I knew you could come through with a good link. IMO it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that a tax on alcohol to help fund the civil war was a subsidy to oil and gas but that is my opinion.
I am against any subsidies to any industry so if there are oil and gas subsidies let's get rid of them too.
If wind and solar become the cheapest form of energy, great. no beef here. Just don't legislate OR regulate them into that position. Let the best energy win. If wind is now cheaper than nat gas in Europe let them go for it.
I don't think a combined 3% of energy use is taking over the energy business, anymore than I think the University of Toledo is on it's way to consistently beating Ohio State even though Toledo improved it's ranking while OSU did not..
I did like the whale oil story though.

I don't think a combined 3% of energy use is taking over the energy business

Do you still use a landline instead of a cell phone?
 
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I don't think a combined 3% of energy use is taking over the energy business

Do you still use a landline instead of a cell phone?

Do you still use an 8-Track?
It had booming sales, until people found out how poor it was vs other options.
 
LaJolla -

Look at the latest published research from the UK U of Reading which supports the same results as and the recent research from Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology.

Try to focus on the science.

This is the latest, showing that the climate physics research does not support the climate models' exaggerated claims about CO2.

This climate research shows the climate models need to significantly "lower future temperatute rise expectations."

Ie - The existing exaggerated extremist claims about CO2 and temperature by climate alarmists at NASA GISS and other biased, heavily conflict-of-interest alarmist groups, are Not supported by the ongoing real world climate science research.

======

"The Climate Alarm Death Knell Sounds Again" - Cloud Cooling Study Means CO2 has Less Impact on Temps

the results of a major scientific study on the effects of anthropogenic aerosols on clouds are going to have large implications for climate change projections—

substantially lowering future temperature rise expectations.

Less enhanced cloud cooling means that greenhouse gases have produced less warming than the climate models have determined.

the results of this new study seem to confirm the results of an analysis published last year by Bjorn Stevens of the Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology and pro which also showed a much smaller anthropogenic enhancement of the cooling property of clouds.
If this Stevens/Lewis result holds up, it is the death blow to global warming hysteria.

The findings being reported by Nicolas Bellouin show, in fact, the Stevens/Lewis result to be holding up quite nicely

=======

The Climate Alarm Death Knell Sounds Again



By PAUL C. “CHIP” KNAPPENBERGER and PATRICK J. MICHAELS

Currently, details are few, but apparently the results of a major scientific study on the effects of anthropogenic aerosols on clouds are going to have large implications for climate change projections—

substantially lowering future temperature rise expectations.


In a blog post from the Department of Meteorology of the University of Reading, Dr. Nicolas Bellouin describes some preliminary results from a research study he leads investigating the influence of aerosols on cloud properties.

The behavior of clouds, including how they are formed, how long they last, how bright they are, etc., plays a very large role in the earth’s climate system, and is considered the weakest part of global climate models. The climate model cloud deficiency results from a combination of scientific uncertainty about cloud behavior, as well as the modeling challenges that come from simulating the small spatial and temporal scales over which the important processes take place.

When it comes to the influence of human aerosol emissions on cloud properties, the scientific mainstream view is that aerosols modify clouds in such a way as to result in an enhanced cooling of the earth’s surface—a cooling influence which has acted to offset some portion of the warming influence resulting from human emissions of greenhouse gases (primarily from the burning of fossil fuels, like coal, oil, and natural gas to produce energy).
In the absence of this presumed aerosol cooling effect, climate models predict that the earth should warm at a much faster rate than has been observed. A large cooling effect from aerosols was thus introduced in the early 1990s as a way to “fix” the climate models and bring them closer in line with the modest pace of observed warming.

Despite that “fix,”climate models continue to overpredict the observed warming rate—which is bad enough news for climate models already.

But the new results, reported by Bellouin, make things much worse for the climate models. His team’s investigations show that the anthropogenic cooling impact from clouds is much less than “assessed” by the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and also much less than employed by climate models. Less enhanced cloud cooling means that greenhouse gases have produced less warming than the climate models have determined. Another way to put it is that this new finding implies that the earth’s climate sensitivity—how much the earth’s surface will warm from a doubling of the pre-industrial atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration—is much below that of the average climate model (3.2°C) and near the low end of the IPCC’s 1.5°C to 4.5°C assessed range. This result comports with the concept of “lukewarming” (which you can read more about here).

Bellouin summarizes his findings:

Radiative forcing is a measure of the imbalance in the Earth’s energy budget caused by perturbations external to the natural climate system, such as the emission of aerosols into the atmosphere by human activities. Our preliminary [research] estimate of radiative forcing due to aerosol-cloud interactions, based on satellite observations of aerosol amounts and cloud reflectivity, is –0.6 W m−2. The negative sign indicates a loss of energy for the climate system. The estimate of climate models for the same radiative forcing is stronger, typically larger than –1 W m−2.

What causes that discrepancy? Over the past few months, I have discussed with experts in aerosol-cloud interactions, and there are reasons to expect that aerosol-cloud interactions are weaker than simulated by climate models – and perhaps even weaker than the preliminary [research] estimate.

Bellouin promises a more formal and detailed release of his team’s findings in August.

As they stand, the results of this new study seem to confirm gthe results of an analysis published last year by Bjorn Stevens of the Max-Planck Institute for Meteorology which also showed a much smaller anthropogenic enhancement of the cooling property of clouds.

When the Stevens results were incorporated into a determination of the earth’s climate sensitivity made by Nic Lewis, the result was a best estimate of the earth’s climate sensitivity of 1.5°C with a narrow range of 1.2°C to 1.8°C. This is a significant lowering and narrowing of the IPCC’s assessed range (again, 1.5°C to 4.5°C). The lower the climate sensitivity, the less future warming will result from our greenhouse gas emissions, the smaller any resultant impact, and the less the “need” to “do something” about it. Also, Lewis’ narrow range of uncertainty increases our confidence that climate change will not be catastrophic—that is, will not proceed at a rate that exceeds our ability to keep up.

At the time, we wrote:

If this Stevens/Lewis result holds up, it is the death blow to global warming hysteria.

The findings being reported by Nicolas Bellouin show, in fact, the Stevens/Lewis result to be holding up quite nicely
 
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LaJolla - Tell us the problem with providing the latest peer-reviewed, published climate studies from top climate research organizations.

It blows away your entire ignorant, dishonest, head-in-the-sand nonsense.
 
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Het Rumble.
You got me thinking about the alcohol tax back at civil war time as a subsidy to the kerosene business. Is that the same as the gasoline tax I pay at the pump each fill up should be considered a subsidy to the renewable industry? Hmm I never thought of it that way.

Landline or cellphone? Both actually and the really neat thing is I get to choose which I have. To my knowledge no govt. agency [yet] has pledged to put the landline companies out of business.
 
Het Rumble.
You got me thinking about the alcohol tax back at civil war time as a subsidy to the kerosene business. Is that the same as the gasoline tax I pay at the pump each fill up should be considered a subsidy to the renewable industry? Hmm I never thought of it that way.

Landline or cellphone? Both actually and the really neat thing is I get to choose which I have. To my knowledge no govt. agency [yet] has pledged to put the landline companies out of business.


How about this nice coal subsidy?

http://www.sightline.org/2015/03/05/wyoming-legislature-embraces-socialism-for-coal/


A budget amendment making its way through the Wyoming legislature could grant the Wyoming Infrastructure Authority (WIA) the power to pursue projects like coal ports in other states…The bill also provides $1 billion in bonds to the WIA for the express purpose of pursuing infrastructure projects, like coal ports.

So the allegedly die-hard conservatives in the Wyoming legislature want to commit a billion dollars in bonding authority, backed up by financial resources of the state government, specifically to build coal export facilities that the private sector itself won’t fund. And even though the residents of Wyoming would ultimately bear the risk from a failed infrastructure project, they even want to the bond money out of state, to build projects in Oregon or Washington.

It’s easy to see why Wyoming legislators are so panicked about the state’s coal industry. Coal output in the state hasfallen by double digits since the 2008 peak. Domestic coal prices remain weak, pulled down by cheap natural gas and by reduced coal demand by domestic utilities.

Meanwhile, the international coal market—which once seemed to hold promise for reviving Wyoming’s coal fortunes—is in a shambles. Asian coal prices are now so low that there’s simply no way for a private company to ship coal from the southern PRB to Asia at a profit. Heck, even Cloud Peak’s export operations, using higher-quality Montana coal, are hemorrhaging millions of dollars per month at today’s prices.

So it’s no wonder that the private sector is steering clear of coal port investments.There’s just not enough money in exports, and the risk of bankruptcy is just too high.

Yet even though the market has spoken, the “conservative” Wyoming legislature thinks it knows better. They’re perfectly fine with using the government authority to foist massive financial risks onto the residents of the state. And they’re fine with spending bond proceeds out of state in ways that minimize the benefits to Wyoming residents.

And for a state as small as Wyoming, a billion dollars is a lot of money: almost $2,000 for every man, woman, and child in the state. It’s also a lot of money for the coal industry: a billion dollars is enough to buy three of Wyoming’s largest coal companies—Arch Coal, Alpha Natural Resources, andCloud Peak—with lots of money to spare. Which means that Wyoming is planning to put up a sum that represents a significant share of the total value of the US coal industry on a bet that the rest of the private sector won’t touch.
 
Rumble you truly are fixated on coal.
In case you missed my question are gasoline taxes a subsidy to the renewable industry?

While I am against subsidies of pretty much any kind there is a big difference in state given subsidies. Almost all states operate on a balance budget so if a state gives a subsidy it is usually to generate more revenue through other methods [income taxes, other suppliers etc.]
I really don't have much beef with Wyoming"s tax breaks to coal or to Nevada's to Tesla. In both cases it is more about jobs and other taxes than picking winners and losers IMO.
 
Rumble you truly are fixated on coal.
In case you missed my question are gasoline taxes a subsidy to the renewable industry?

While I am against subsidies of pretty much any kind there is a big difference in state given subsidies. Almost all states operate on a balance budget so if a state gives a subsidy it is usually to generate more revenue through other methods [income taxes, other suppliers etc.]
I really don't have much beef with Wyoming"s tax breaks to coal or to Nevada's to Tesla. In both cases it is more about jobs and other taxes than picking winners and losers IMO.

While I am against subsidies of pretty much any kind there is a big difference in state given subsidies. Almost all states operate on a balance budget so if a state gives a subsidy it is usually to generate more revenue through other methods [income taxes, other suppliers etc.]

Read it again. They are going to use the state backing to sell bonds to build export facilities in other states. That is really awesome for the state receiving the spending. It's really, really bad for the state backing the bonds. Those coal export terminals will dead on arrival, let alone being profitable for 20-30 years to pay back the bonds.
 
While I am against subsidies of pretty much any kind there is a big difference in state given subsidies. Almost all states operate on a balance budget so if a state gives a subsidy it is usually to generate more revenue through other methods [income taxes, other suppliers etc.]

Read it again. They are going to use the state backing to sell bonds to build export facilities in other states. That is really awesome for the state receiving the spending. It's really, really bad for the state backing the bonds. Those coal export terminals will dead on arrival, let alone being profitable for 20-30 years to pay back the bonds.
My point was this is about economics. I have no idea why a state would issue a bond to create revenue and jobs for another state unless they are receiving more income from the facility manufacturer than the bond will cost them. Regardless it is about the economics not picking winners and losers.
 
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