Cenzo and 165 predictions

[Ban Basketball]

Angry? You don't know me very well. The day you make me angry will be a cold one. Just presenting facts, while you change the narrative, which seems to be your MO.

It's ok really, it's a message board, with dozen's of differing thoughts...some are just outrageous, that's all.

I changed no narrative at all; my words make sense to me, which is all that matters.

I'll still stand behind, "overhyped," "vulnerable," and the perception by many (James Witters III nailed it) that he was, "unbeatable." All of them make sense to me, and I'll stand behind all of them, within their proper contexts, which, again, makes sense to me.

 

[Ban Basketball]

I think using phrases like "Overhyped" and "VERY Beatable" are far different & much more specific and more demeaning than saying "No one is unbeatable" Your phrases and "No one is unbeatable" are not in the same ballpark...…..perhaps not even in the same state.

See above. They mean the same thing in this context to me, which is all that matters to me.

 

[kps7987]

See above. They mean the same thing in this context to me, which is all that matters to me.

Quite frankly I respect IMar's accomplishments and his ability as a wrestler but similar to Ban B. I have always questioned the heart when things when challenged. I point to both times he was on his back and the last match against Cenzo where he was challenged and he seemed to lack the fight I would expect. As an outside observer it seems many are critical of Ban B's opinion and are arguing semantics instead of respecting opinions which is something that cannot be proven.

That being said I was impressed by IMar back in May against Burroughs and developed a different opinion following that match. I still question his fight when challenged but his abilities are not questioned.

 

[jrd23psu]

Maybe a better word for him was "vulnerable." I always saw him as someone VERY beatable, and that's how I felt in his last two NCAA's.

I disagree here. IMar only has 3 losses in his college career. And those three losses came to the same two guys. For a guy who you think was very beatable almost nobody beat him. He won 4 straight B1G titles and wrestled in 4 straight NCAA finals. The guy was as close to unbeatable as college wrestlers get. There were only two guys who ever beat him.

 

[jrd23psu]

Quite frankly I respect IMar's accomplishments and his ability as a wrestler but similar to Ban B. I have always questioned the heart when things when challenged. I point to both times he was on his back and the last match against Cenzo where he was challenged and he seemed to lack the fight I would expect. As an outside observer it seems many are critical of Ban B's opinion and are arguing semantics instead of respecting opinions which is something that cannot be proven.

That being said I was impressed by IMar back in May against Burroughs and developed a different opinion following that match. I still question his fight when challenged but his abilities are not questioned.

I won't disagree that when the chips are down he doesn't show as much fight as you'd expect from a guy as successful as he is. However, I'd chalk that up to inexperience. How many times has he ever had to fight back? Or fight off his back? The guy was so good that he almost never in that position.

When Spencer Lee wrestled Austin DeSanto in the finals two years ago at the Giant Center there was a moment in the third period where Spencer gets taken down for the second time in that period and he has a deer in the headlights look. Spencer Lee is an insane talent but like IMar those scenarios are foreign to them. It's strange to look at it as inexperience, but that's what it is.

 

[nerfstate]

I really think we're splitting hairs here. Anyone who can see with eyes know Isaiah is good at wrestling. Very, very good. I can also see that the intensity he brings to the mat can become difficult to manage when faced with major adversity. He's wound pretty tight.

Seems to me Ban is advocating that rhetorical embellishments over how good some of these very elite guys are gets tiresome--and I'd agree. People can obviously and do get beat, or, since we're quoting Gibbons this morning "guys show up."

 

[diggerpup]

Realized that a “key date” for Cenzo could occur at the Scuffle:


Marsteller vs Joseph is a “probable” Scuffle final. (Could see JoJo Smith)

 

[Ban Basketball]

For me personally, I wasn't even speaking to his ability to either get on or off his back, as I rarely saw that happen, so my ability to judge that is limited.

I base it mainly on the fact that he always seemed to be struggling with his wind by second, and especially third period. I always felt that if his opponents didn't have the deer in the headlights look against him and just pour on the pressure as he begins running out of gas I was convinced that the guy would eventually just roll over and quit.

Again, JUST MY OBSERVATION, but, of course, I'm probably wrong.

 

[y2jriden]

For me personally, I wasn't even speaking to his ability to either get on or off his back, as I rarely saw that happen, so my ability to judge that is limited.

I base it mainly on the fact that he always seemed to be struggling with his wind by second, and especially third period. I always felt that if his opponents didn't have the deer in the headlights look against him and just pour on the pressure as he begins running out of gas I was convinced that the guy would eventually just roll over and quit.

Again, JUST MY OBSERVATION, but, of course, I'm probably wrong.

People are arguing against your opinion, not your right to have one.

My opinion is IMar was 2 or 3 wins from being top 5 of recent times. I agree that he looked winded at a few points in his career but if you watch the big ten finals against Nolf where he beat Nolf in double OT/TB, they were both exhausted. No one has ever done that Nolf other than that one match. IMar is the only guy to ever beat Nolf and other than the PSU guys, I can't think of too many times when he was really in trouble.

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

I-Mar presumed his loss to VJ was a fluke and he was a shoe-in for 3x-er. (His twitter says as much).

Couple that with a filled in circle tattoo (which makes zero sense on so many levels) and you have the perfect reasons to doubt the guy.

 

[SRATH]

People are arguing against your opinion, not your right to have one.

My opinion is IMar was 2 or 3 wins from being top 5 of recent times. I agree that he looked winded at a few points in his career but if you watch the big ten finals against Nolf where he beat Nolf in double OT/TB, they were both exhausted. No one has ever done that Nolf other than that one match. IMar is the only guy to ever beat Nolf and other than the PSU guys, I can't think of too many times when he was really in trouble.

What you said there is profound.......the only guy to beat Nolf. Twice. Outlasted Nolf.

Imar is a cyborg too?

 

[tomsc]

Realized that a “key date” for Cenzo could occur at the Scuffle:


Marsteller vs Joseph is a “probable” Scuffle final. (Could see JoJo Smith)

I've seen a couple of references to OSU being at the Scuffle this year. Do we have reason to think that they're bringing their starters? I know last year they had the dual in Italy preventing their starters from coming, but still am not sure that they're bringing their starters this year. I hope they do!

 

[raslen007]

Just curious...first you say "overhyped", then back off to say "VERY beatable", even emphasizing VERY, in caps.

Dude lost 3 times in college, to only two different wrestlers, was a 4-time finalist, with something like a 114-3 record and about a 70% bonus point rate. Even has a winning overall record against the two guys that beat him. If he was VERY beatable, he would have lost more.

And a win over Nolf. Not to shabby.

 

[lobo lion]

I-Mar presumed his loss to VJ was a fluke and he was a shoe-in for 3x-er. (His twitter says as much).

Couple that with a filled in circle tattoo (which makes zero sense on so many levels) and you have the perfect reasons to doubt the guy.

Not sure I follow you. It seems like you're saying that, because IMar is extremely confident and he has a tattoo that you don't understand, we should question his abilities. Maybe I'm just missing a TIC comment.

 

[nerfstate]

Couple that with a filled in circle tattoo (which makes zero sense on so many levels) and you have the perfect reasons to doubt the guy.

You may know more than I do--but you know he's said the tattoo is a tribute to his late father, right?

 

[nitlion6]

Quite frankly I respect IMar's accomplishments and his ability as a wrestler but similar to Ban B. I have always questioned the heart when things when challenged. I point to both times he was on his back and the last match against Cenzo where he was challenged and he seemed to lack the fight I would expect. As an outside observer it seems many are critical of Ban B's opinion and are arguing semantics instead of respecting opinions which is something that cannot be proven.

That being said I was impressed by IMar back in May against Burroughs and developed a different opinion following that match. I still question his fight when challenged but his abilities are not questioned.

So you are comfortable using less than 3% of his available sampling to define his wrestling character.
His fight when challenged? You mean like his finals match against Jason? Maybe you are talking about how he responded to Ness in the 2015 Big10 finals.

Just an opinion, but I think your opinion is silly and incorrect.

 

[El-Jefe]

So you are comfortable using less than 3% of his available sampling to define his wrestling character.
His fight when challenged? You mean like his finals match against Jason? Maybe you are talking about how he responded to Ness in the 2015 Big10 finals.

Both wins over Jason. The national semi OT win over Ian Miller, too -- he dug deep for that one.

The "he doesn't fight off his back" meme never fails to crack me up either. In one match, he was off his feet for 4 seconds with his arms tied up. In the other, he got (inadvertently) kneed in the neck.

 

[RoarLions1]

Dude lost 3 times in college, to only two different wrestlers, was a 4-time finalist, with something like a 114-3 record and about a 70% bonus point rate. Even has a winning overall record against the two guys that beat him. If he was VERY beatable, he would have lost more.

And a win over Nolf. Not to shabby.

Thanks, though it's already in my post. IMar was 2-1 vs Nolf, and 3-2 vs Cenzo.

 

[diggerpup]

.... not sure how the the “Joseph / 165 predictions” thread spiraled into an IMar obsession. Sigh.

I've seen a couple of references to OSU being at the Scuffle this year. Do we have reason to think that they're bringing their starters? I know last year they had the dual in Italy preventing their starters from coming, but still am not sure that they're bringing their starters this year. I hope they do!

OkieSt has Reno TOC & Scuffle both scheduled.

Northern CO - 12/16
Reno - 12/20
Scuffle - 1/1-1/2
Princeton - 1/12
Rutgers - 1/13

The large gap between duals + better completion at S.S. leads me to believe Okie St:

All Starters —> Scuffle
Others / some starters —> Reno

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

You may know more than I do--but you know he's said the tattoo is a tribute to his late father, right?

Never heard/saw that. Since that's the case, I should never have said something like I did.

 

[kps7987]

So you are comfortable using less than 3% of his available sampling to define his wrestling character.
His fight when challenged? You mean like his finals match against Jason? Maybe you are talking about how he responded to Ness in the 2015 Big10 finals.

Just an opinion, but I think your opinion is silly and incorrect.

First and foremost there is no need to lower our level to elementary school tactics of belittling another person with "silly and incorrect".

Although not necessary if you read my post it said based on those times pointed out that I questioned his heart but it also points out that continuing to watch him I came away impressed. So my opinion of IMar evolved and continues to evolve. Quite frankly the only opinion in my post was that I think IMar has shown heart so saying my opinion was 'silly and incorrect" means that you think IMar lacks heart and ability?

 

[KTG119]

Realized that a “key date” for Cenzo could occur at the Scuffle:


Marsteller vs Joseph is a “probable” Scuffle final. (Could see JoJo Smith)

junior world champ Mekhi Lewis will be at Scuffle as well. this event could tell a lot about how he will fit into the picture, including if he has closed gap on Marstellar since his RS year.

 

[dbldoofus]

In all of this Imar talk, I just realized. Chance is a senior. Wow. That went by fast.

 

[nitlion6]

First and foremost there is no need to lower our level to elementary school tactics of belittling another person with "silly and incorrect".

Although not necessary if you read my post it said based on those times pointed out that I questioned his heart but it also points out that continuing to watch him I came away impressed. So my opinion of IMar evolved and continues to evolve. Quite frankly the only opinion in my post was that I think IMar has shown heart so saying my opinion was 'silly and incorrect" means that you think IMar lacks heart and ability?

I wasn't attempting to lower it anywhere.
Martinez is a 2 time champion, a 4 time NCAA finalist, a 4 time Big10 champion who lost a total of 3 matches in his 4 year career. Those three loses were to 2 kids who might end up with 7 NCAA championships and 8 finals appearances, and he has a winning record against each of the two.
Maybe the kid was the most talented wrestler ever who got by with minimal fight and toughness, or maybe he was extremely talented, dedicated and tough as nails with plenty of fight. I know what kind of competitor I believe I watched beat up Dylan Ness, or suck it and get past Jason Nolf. May I point out, the only wrestler to defeat a non redshirting Jason Nolf.

It is my opinion that an opinion that questions the kids fight, which is also questioning his toughness and heart is simply a silly opinion.

 

[Dogwelder]

... I always felt that if his opponents didn't have the deer in the headlights look against him and just pour on the pressure as he begins running out of gas I was convinced that the guy would eventually just roll over and quit ...

That top-secret advice should go into a 1/8-inch binder! I just hope it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Wasn't Spyker an honest man?

I thought Spyker transferred to Rutgers? I saw him lose to Spencer last March. Am I confusing my relics?

 

[kps7987]

I wasn't attempting to lower it anywhere.
Martinez is a 2 time champion, a 4 time NCAA finalist, a 4 time Big10 champion who lost a total of 3 matches in his 4 year career. Those three loses were to 2 kids who might end up with 7 NCAA championships and 8 finals appearances, and he has a winning record against each of the two.
Maybe the kid was the most talented wrestler ever who got by with minimal fight and toughness, or maybe he was extremely talented, dedicated and tough as nails with plenty of fight. I know what kind of competitor I believe I watched beat up Dylan Ness, or suck it and get past Jason Nolf. May I point out, the only wrestler to defeat a non redshirting Jason Nolf.

It is my opinion that an opinion that questions the kids fight, which is also questioning his toughness and heart is simply a silly opinion.

And what was said was that when confronted with difficult situations I did not see the fight I expected which made me question his heart. It is similar to when Cael went with Shak over Cassar for the tournament after Cassar beat Moore. As fans we question the decision. We don't change our overall opinion of Cael as a coach because of a decision he makes however as a fan you can take in a body of evidence and formulate an opinion.

Here is my stated opinion from the original post:

"That being said I was impressed by IMar back in May against Burroughs and developed a different opinion following that match. I still question his fight when challenged but his abilities are not questioned."

 

[Ban Basketball]

That top-secret advice should go into a 1/8-inch binder! I just hope it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

Feel free to mock it, but isn't it funny as to how few people actually turn it on when "unbeatables" start running out of gas?

I'll never claim to be a smart guy, but it IS one observation that I've made after decades of following the sport.

 

[y2jriden]

Feel free to mock it, but isn't it funny as to how few people actually turn it on when "unbeatables" start running out of gas?

I'll never claim to be a smart guy, but it IS one observation that I've made after decades of following the sport.

I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you've seen in the past these guys who people claim to be unbeatable but when the pressure is put on them, they gas out and lose?

Care to name any one wrestler who was claimed to be an "unbeatable" that gassed out and lost to a non-unbeatable?

Given that was there was only ever one true unbeatable, I guess we're defining "unbeatable" to be almost unbeatable.

Last thing, this IMAR thing has gotten a little out of hand. No matter what you or anyone thought or hoped for or observed, the guy lost 3 times to a combined possible 7 national titles and beat those same guys more than he lost so I just don't see it. Other than those matches, who exactly had him anywhere near gassed?

 

[nitlion6]

Feel free to mock it, but isn't it funny as to how few people actually turn it on when "unbeatables" start running out of gas?

I'll never claim to be a smart guy, but it IS one observation that I've made after decades of following the sport.

Generally the guy pushing the near unbeatable has run his gas tank nearly empty to push the near unbeatable to the breaking point.

Just saying.

Of course, along your point, sometimes when the underdog realizes what he is close to accomplishing the brain freezes the muscles with a "don't blow it" warning.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

Other than those matches, who exactly had him anywhere near gassed?

Maybe somebody could help me out here, but I seem to remember him having difficulties on more than one Friday at NCAAs where the matches were much closer than anybody would have expected. My memory isn't what it once was, but I thought there was lots of commentary about him gassing.

 

[nitlion6]

Considering Zain >>>>>>> Caldwell, Palmer

I will take Zain.

 

[Ban Basketball]

I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you've seen in the past these guys who people claim to be unbeatable but when the pressure is put on them, they gas out and lose?

Nope. Many opponents of "unbeatables" get a deer in the headlights look when they face that opponent. Translation: they are intimidated by them and don't wrestle their normal style.

On the other end, some "unbeatables" have issues with running out of gas. I felt that Martinez was the poster boy for that. I never saw him in a 2nd or 3rd period when his hands weren't on his hips, head down, and huffing and puffing for dear life.

So, my ultimate point: I've always been amazed at how the deer in the headlights look prevented a lot of wrestlers from really turning on the heat in the 3rd period when that "unbeatable" is out of gas, and for the "lesser opponent" to not literally wear them down to the point of beating them, due to being out of gas.

THAT is primarily why I always found Martinez very beatable.

 

[y2jriden]

Nope. Many opponents of "unbeatables" get a deer in the headlights look when they face that opponent. Translation: they are intimidated by them and don't wrestle their normal style.

I agree with this. No doubt about it.

On the other end, some "unbeatables" have issues with running out of gas. I felt that Martinez was the poster boy for that. I never saw him in a 2nd or 3rd period when his hands weren't on his hips, head down, and huffing and puffing for dear life.

So, my ultimate point: I've always been amazed at how the deer in the headlights look prevented a lot of wrestlers from really turning on the heat in the 3rd period when that "unbeatable" is out of gas, and for the "lesser opponent" to not literally wear them down to the point of beating them, due to being out of gas.

THAT is primarily why I always found Martinez very beatable.

But c'mon, you never saw him where he wasn't huffing and puffing or tired in the 2nd and 3rd. Please. Never?

Most people couldn't push him to the 2nd or 3rd, he's got many tech falls so just taking him 7 minutes isn't easy.

But the bottom line is, I don't get how you can find someone who lost 3 times to the elite of the elite to be VERY BEATABLE.. C'mon

 

[Ban Basketball]

I agree with this. No doubt about it.




But c'mon, you never saw him where he wasn't huffing and puffing or tired in the 2nd and 3rd. Please. Never?

Most people couldn't push him to the 2nd or 3rd, he's got many tech falls so just taking him 7 minutes isn't easy.

But the bottom line is, I don't get how you can find someone who lost 3 times to the elite of the elite to be VERY BEATABLE.. C'mon

Don't take it so seriously. I know I'm wrong, I'm an idiot, and should shut up.

Got it. Hence, my moniker.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Don't take it so seriously. I know I'm wrong, I'm an idiot, and should shut up.

Got it. Hence, my moniker.

Your problem is you don't seem capable of shutting up as you have proven repeatedly. You are supposed to learn from your mistakes but you seemed to have missed that lesson.

 

[Ban Basketball]

Your problem is you don't seem capable of shutting up as you have proven repeatedly. You are supposed to learn from your mistakes but you seemed to have missed that lesson.

Must be why you keep doing the same thing too, eh, boy?

In our parts we call that, "picket fence, meet snow."

 

[ClarkstonMark]

Maybe somebody could help me out here, but I seem to remember him having difficulties on more than one Friday at NCAAs where the matches were much closer than anybody would have expected. My memory isn't what it once was, but I thought there was lots of commentary about him gassing.

that is what I remember as well (the chatter, like better to get him Friday than Saturday), but he made it to Saturday night all 4 years

 

[dbldoofus]

I can’t wait for the season to start.

 

[Dogwelder]

It's surprising there is no spectator sport entitled "Let's see someone get the last word in!" It's so entertaining!