Bucco fans; Will the Pirates ever have an actual big league first baseman?

[The Spin Meister]

Can't remember when they last did. Garret Jones doesn't count as he didn't hit all that well. Sid Bream maybe? OK but not all that good either. And he was 20-25 yrs ago. Have to go all the way back to Stargell? I think they have had 6-7 first basemen just this year! Ishy, Pedro, Morse, Rameras, Rodriguez, did they try Snider there this yr? I am sure I left out someone.

They keep making trades saying 'this is the guy we have been watching/wanting' and they flame out.

How many people have they tried there in the last 20 yrs? Bet there are at least 50. Can anyone name them all?

Pedro had another error and leads the league. Almost cost them another game. He doesn't hit well enough to play and I am tired of waiting on his 'potential.' With even an average first baseman that can hit 25-35 homers, hit .270-.290 and have less than a dozen errors, the Bucs would be in first place.

 

[fairgambit]

Can't remember when they last did. Garret Jones doesn't count as he didn't hit all that well. Sid Bream maybe? OK but not all that good either. And he was 20-25 yrs ago. Have to go all the way back to Stargell? I think they have had 6-7 first basemen just this year! Ishy, Pedro, Morse, Rameras, Rodriguez, did they try Snider there this yr? I amsure I left out someone.

They keep making trades saying 'this is the guy we have been watching/wanting and they flame out.

How many people have they tried there in the last 20 yrs? Bet there are at least 50.can anyone name them all?

Pedro had another error and leads the league. Almost cost them another game. He doesn't hit well enough to play and i am tired of waiting on his 'potential.' With even an average first baseman that can hit 25-35 homers, hit .270-.290 and have less than a dozen errors, the Bucs would be in first place.

It's hard to argue with what you said.

 

[SteveMasters]

Can't remember when they last did. Garret Jones doesn't count as he didn't hit all that well. Sid Bream maybe? OK but not all that good either. And he was 20-25 yrs ago. Have to go all the way back to Stargell? I think they have had 6-7 first basemen just this year! Ishy, Pedro, Morse, Rameras, Rodriguez, did they try Snider there this yr? I amsure I left out someone.

They keep making trades saying 'this is the guy we have been watching/wanting and they flame out.

How many people have they tried there in the last 20 yrs? Bet there are at least 50. Can anyone name them all?

Pedro had another error and leads the league. Almost cost them another game. He doesn't hit well enough to play and i am tired of waiting on his 'potential.' With even an average first baseman that can hit 25-35 homers, hit .270-.290 and have less than a dozen errors, the Bucs would be in first place.

Willie Stargell was the last good first baseman that the Pirates have had.

 

[ras5051]

I don't remember much of his playing days, but Kevin Young had a pretty good offensive stretch between 1997 and 2000 where he hit between .258 and .300. He also had 91 homers in that 4 year stretch along with 376 rbi's. We'd probably be in 1st place if we could somehow just replace Pedro w/ him.

 

[rjg82]

I would agree with OP

 

[androcles]

... How about Elbie Fletcher?...

 

[SteveMasters]

I don't remember much of his playing days, but Kevin Young had a pretty good offensive stretch between 1997 and 2000 where he hit between .258 and .300. He also had 91 homers in that 4 year stretch along with 376 rbi's. We'd probably be in 1st place if we could somehow just replace Pedro w/ him.

I liked KY and he was an ok first baseman, but the Pirates overpaid him and regretted giving him a big contract.

 

[john4psu]

Jason Thompson and Adam LaRoche not pleased with the OP. (Sarcasm font)

 

[PSU-CPA]

Wait for Josh Bell. Could be next year!

 

[jim cummings]

They blew it when they allowed Morneau to walk.

 

[PSU-Knocker]

... How about Elbie Fletcher?...

Is that a body part?

 

[psu_83_drummer]

Can't remember when they last did. Garret Jones doesn't count as he didn't hit all that well. Sid Bream maybe? OK but not all that good either. And he was 20-25 yrs ago. Have to go all the way back to Stargell? I think they have had 6-7 first basemen just this year! Ishy, Pedro, Morse, Rameras, Rodriguez, did they try Snider there this yr? I am sure I left out someone.

They keep making trades saying 'this is the guy we have been watching/wanting' and they flame out.

How many people have they tried there in the last 20 yrs? Bet there are at least 50. Can anyone name them all?

Pedro had another error and leads the league. Almost cost them another game. He doesn't hit well enough to play and I am tired of waiting on his 'potential.' With even an average first baseman that can hit 25-35 homers, hit .270-.290 and have less than a dozen errors, the Bucs would be in first place.

Bob Robertson?

 

[bjf1984]

They blew it when they allowed Morneau to walk.

Uh.....no

Morneau was "done" when he came to Pittsburgh in 2013.

Last two years (granted, he missed most of this year due to injuries)....he has a total of 7 home runs away from Coors Field.

His OPS this year....away from Coors Field.....is about equal to Chris Stewart's

 

[john4psu]

Pedro's way of bringing back memories of Dr. Strangeglove Dick Stuart.

 

[wbcincy]

They blew it when they allowed Morneau to walk.

Eh. Morneau cannot stay healthy, and he did nothing in 25 games with the Pirates, so why sign him? 0 HRs and a .681 OPS in 25 games. Hardly justifies $6M+ per year. And yes, he had a great year with the Rockies in 2014 (who doesnt have great years at the plate w/ them), but also note that he's played 39 games this year. Because being hurt is what he does. So I wouldn't say they "blew it" by not retaining him, even with the benefit of hindsight.

I'd also support ras5051 who said Kevin Young was a good 1B. It may not have been for long, but he definitely was. For 3 seasons from '97 to '99, he had a combined WAR of 9.8. No way to argue he wasn't a good 1B for that stretch.

And as PSU-CPA said, help is on the way soon in the form of Josh Bell, likely late june of next season. He's a really smart kid (son of 2 doctors, I believe), who just has to learn a new position at first, which began this year. Still a work in progress there, but there's no reason to believe he can't figure it out. In 2014, between Hi-A and AA, he hit .325/.375/.834 with only 55 Ks in 425 ABs. In 2015, between AA and AAA, he hit .317/.393/.838, again showing great plate discipline with a 1:1 BB to K ratio. His power hasn't really come around yet, but his eye and size lead everyone to believe it's just a matter of time. And even if it doesn't, a .300+ AVG, .375+ OBP guy at first base will be huge.

 

[fairgambit]

Pedro's way of bringing back memories of Dr. Strangeglove Dick Stuart.

Ah, that brings back memories of the Gunner..."Don't boo Stu, he's overdue".

 

[bjf1984]

Wait for Josh Bell. Could be next year!

Ya' never know how a rookie will adjust......and Bell has - to date - shown a relatively surprising lack of HRs for a big guy with such a good-looking swing. (and VERY good hitting numbers otherwise).
He also has a rep as a butcher around 1st base (IIRC, this was his first FULL year at 1B, after transitioning from the OF).

So.....I'm not sure its real high probability he has early success (in any event, I would certainly expect he spends 6 weeks in AAA in 2016, so as to max out his arbitration clock)

All that said, he probably has the best POTENTIAL to be a long-term legit 1B in Pittsburgh over anyone in the last two decades.

______________

Still time for the Buccos to evaluate.....but I'd expect they offer arbitration to both Pedro and Walker......with the idea of:

- Trading one of them (even at their likely arbitration salaries - around $10 M for Walker....probably $8-10 M for Pedro....I would think they could move them and their salaries, and at least pick up a middling prospect in the process.....so, that would be better than just letter them go as non-tenders)
and
- Using the other as a placeholder at 1B until Bell comes up.....and an insurance policy if Bell struggles.

 

[LemonEars]

Look for the Bucs to dump Pedro after the season. His 25 - 30 homers will entice an AL team to try him as a DH. Hopefully the Bucs will get somebody decent in return.

 

[PSU-Knocker]

All that said, he probably has the best POTENTIAL to be a long-term legit 1B in Pittsburgh over anyone in the last two decades.

I don't care if he never hits a home run. If he can hit near what he's hitting in the minors and field as well as the average first baseman, he'll produce at least 6-8 more victories than Pedro.

 

[bjf1984]

I don't care if he never hits a home run. If he can hit near what he's hitting in the minors and field as well as the average first baseman, he'll produce at least 6-8 more victories than Pedro.

Agree

Even if he fields like the 2nd worst first baseman in the league (which he may, from what I am told).....he'd still be a 20 runs per season upgrade defensively than Pedro

I am not sure if people realize (actually, I guess most people do realize) what a HISTORICALLY awful defensive liability Pedro is:

-2.1 WAR defensively

21 CHARGED errors (which doesn't consider the 50 plays he screws up that are not charged as errors....and he generally only plays 2/3 of the game before being subbed out)

Next worst 1B in the majors, 9 errors.

Going back 10 years....I only found 2 first baseman with even 2/3 the number of errors in a season as Pedro (Ryan Howard, and Mo Vaughn)

 

[The Spin Meister]

First base needs to be our first priority. And this time get a bonafide FB.
I don't think we can count on Bell If he had played some other infield position I would feel a little better about his prospects. Transitioning from outfield to FB isn't easy as they aren't used to the speed that liners get to them or how to play bad hops. Takes a lot of time to develop those reflexes needed.

Best option it sign a FA or trade for someone to play a full year there so Bell get really learn the position first.

I'm just hoping that Pedro goes on one of his tears right away to carry the Bucs through the WS. He is way over due for a really hot streak.

 

[ZepGraffiti]

Agree

Even if he fields like the 2nd worst first baseman in the league (which he may, from what I am told).....he'd still be a 20 runs per season upgrade defensively than Pedro

I am not sure if people realize (actually, I guess most people do realize) what a HISTORICALLY awful defensive liability Pedro is:

-2.1 WAR defensively

21 CHARGED errors (which doesn't consider the 50 plays he screws up that are not charged as errors....and he generally only plays 2/3 of the game before being subbed out)

Next worst 1B in the majors, 9 errors.

Going back 10 years....I only found 2 first baseman with even 2/3 the number of errors in a season as Pedro (Ryan Howard, and Mo Vaughn)

Are those 21 errors all from 1B? Or, does that count all the throwing E's from 3B earlier in the year?

I'm on board with letting Pedro go the Amer League route in the off-season. Bucs don't really need him anymore (although it is nice having someone on the roster who can hit a ball 500+ ft on any given AB].
Pedro is what he is at this point in his career. Weaker link on a good team, but not a disaster. Could be better, but could definitely be worse [see last few decades @1B]. Solid base runner for a big man too. And he hits well vs Cards, which could have value yet this season.

 

[bjf1984]

Are those 21 errors all from 1B? Or, does that count all the throwing E's from 3B earlier in the year?

I'm on board with letting Pedro go the Amer League route in the off-season. Bucs don't really need him anymore (although it is nice having someone on the roster who can hit a ball 500+ ft on any given AB].
Pedro is what he is at this point in his career. Weaker link on a good team, but not a disaster. Could be better, but could definitely be worse [see last few decades @1B]. Solid base runner for a big man too. And he hits well vs Cards, which could have value yet this season.

They are all from 1B

FWIW, I do not recall him playing a single inning anywhere else this year.

 

[wbcincy]

They are all from 1B

FWIW, I do not recall him playing a single inning anywhere else this year.

You're correct, the 3B throwing problems were last year. Pedro has played nothing but 1B and DH this season. Frankly I'm surprised he hasnt managed any Es at DH.

 

[LemonEars]

Are those 21 errors all from 1B? Or, does that count all the throwing E's from 3B earlier in the year?

I'm on board with letting Pedro go the Amer League route in the off-season. Bucs don't really need him anymore (although it is nice having someone on the roster who can hit a ball 500+ ft on any given AB].
Pedro is what he is at this point in his career. Weaker link on a good team, but not a disaster. Could be better, but could definitely be worse [see last few decades @1B]. Solid base runner for a big man too. And he hits well vs Cards, which could have value yet this season.

Pedro is an enigma to me. About the time I get really down on him -- usually after 3 consecutive strikeouts and an error -- he hits one into the river. He really has a beautiful swing when he connects.

 

[BBG65]

Pedro's offensive stats are pretty good. I think he has 25 HRs and 72 RBIs. He probably has the best RBI/AB ratio on the team despite hitting low in the order. Cutch would be the only one who might be better. Yeah, the errors are frustrating as I thought he'd do better. He is athletic and was a pretty good 3B if you take away his throwing issues which is what they thought they were doing when they moved him to 1st. I imagine in the off-season, they will shop him around and see what they can get. Not that he's the answer, but I believe Michael Morse is under contract another year. Bell's not ready.

 

[mn78psu83]

Can't remember when they last did. Garret Jones doesn't count as he didn't hit all that well. Sid Bream maybe? OK but not all that good either. And he was 20-25 yrs ago. Have to go all the way back to Stargell? I think they have had 6-7 first basemen just this year! Ishy, Pedro, Morse, Rameras, Rodriguez, did they try Snider there this yr? I am sure I left out someone.

They keep making trades saying 'this is the guy we have been watching/wanting' and they flame out.

How many people have they tried there in the last 20 yrs? Bet there are at least 50. Can anyone name them all?

Pedro had another error and leads the league. Almost cost them another game. He doesn't hit well enough to play and I am tired of waiting on his 'potential.' With even an average first baseman that can hit 25-35 homers, hit .270-.290 and have less than a dozen errors, the Bucs would be in first place.

Dick Stuart and Don Clendenon - may they both rest in peace.

 

[bjf1984]

Pedro's offensive stats are pretty good. I think he has 25 HRs and 72 RBIs. He probably has the best RBI/AB ratio on the team despite hitting low in the order. Cutch would be the only one who might be better. Yeah, the errors are frustrating as I thought he'd do better. He is athletic and was a pretty good 3B if you take away his throwing issues which is what they thought they were doing when they moved him to 1st. I imagine in the off-season, they will shop him around and see what they can get. Not that he's the answer, but I believe Michael Morse is under contract another year. Bell's not ready.

Pedro, HRs notwithstanding, is a net negative to a "replacement level" player.

What I'd like to see, is the Buccos hold on to Walker and move him to 1B (he is NEARLY as poor at 2B - due to lack of range - as Pedro is at first)

Use Walker and Morse (against LHP) - Morse, you are right, is under contract for 2016 - at first until Bell is ready.

That gives you a lot more flexibility .....since, in a pinch, Walker could move to 2B, when they needed to rest Harrison (2B), Kang (3B), or Mercer (SS). Also gives you some insurance if Kang misses a significant amount of next spring (could live with Walker at 2B for a while, with Harrison playing everyday at 3B)
Assuming Bell is ready by June....you can then still get some value from Walker as a de facto "utility guy", since he could relieve Harrison at 2B, and allow Harrison to fill in where needed.

Pedro doesn't give you any of those options....and, if dealing with an AL club, Pedro may actually bring back more in return (he actually will probably cost a couple million less than Walker in arbitration as well....which would help in generating some return)


Not to mention....and I think this is worth consideration:

Walker is not the asshole that Pedro is.

Pedro is one of the most selfish ballplayers to wear a Bucco uniform since Bonds left (wouldn't go to winter ball to work at 1B, NEVER adjusts his approach to move guys over, put the ball in play, etc).
Walker - who I DO NOT think is worth the $$$ for an extension - is still one of the good guys (even though I think his skills are declining) and having him around for another year - maximizing his time in Pittsburgh - would, I think be the decent thing to do and best for all involved.
Heck, moving from 2B, and to a less "wear-and-tear" position may even lead to a jump in his offensive numbers.
Assuming Bell works out OK, let Walker go after the 2016 as a free agent and get one nice 2-4 year payday before he is no longer able to command a nice contract.

 

[wbcincy]

Pedro, HRs notwithstanding, is a net negative to a "replacement level" player.

What I'd like to see, is the Buccos hold on to Walker and move him to 1B (he is NEARLY as poor at 2B - due to lack of range - as Pedro is at first)

Use Walker and Morse (against LHP) - Morse, you are right, is under contract for 2016 - at first until Bell is ready.

That gives you a lot more flexibility .....since, in a pinch, Walker could move to 2B, when they needed to rest Harrison (2B), Kang (3B), or Mercer (SS). Also gives you some insurance if Kang misses a significant amount of next spring (could live with Walker at 2B for a while, with Harrison playing everyday at 3B)
Assuming Bell is ready by June....you can then still get some value from Walker as a de facto "utility guy", since he could relieve Harrison at 2B, and allow Harrison to fill in where needed.

Pedro doesn't give you any of those options....and, if dealing with an AL club, Pedro may actually bring back more in return (he actually will probably cost a couple million less than Walker in arbitration as well....which would help in generating some return)


Not to mention....and I think this is worth consideration:

Walker is not the asshole that Pedro is.

Pedro is one of the most selfish ballplayers to wear a Bucco uniform since Bonds left (wouldn't go to winter ball to work at 1B, NEVER adjusts his approach to move guys over, put the ball in play, etc).
Walker - who I DO NOT think is worth the $$$ for an extension - is still one of the good guys (even though I think his skills are declining) and having him around for another year - maximizing his time in Pittsburgh - would, I think be the decent thing to do and best for all involved.
Heck, moving from 2B, and to a less "wear-and-tear" position may even lead to a jump in his offensive numbers.
Assuming Bell works out OK, let Walker go after the 2016 as a free agent and get one nice 2-4 year payday before he is no longer able to command a nice contract.

Yeah I really like that plan. A lot of people don't realize what a liability Walker is at 2B because of his lack of range. By mid-season, having an infield of Kang at 3rd, Mercer at short, Harrison at 2nd and Walker at 1st with Josh Bell and Alen Hanson ready to play significant roles based on injuries/performance is pretty ideal and once again likely the deepest infield in baseball.

As for those saying they should shop Pedro around this offseason. Nobody was interested in him this year when they tried to do that. He'll be more expensive next year. So I'm not sure why anyone would be more interested this winter, but perhaps. The market for an expensive platoon DH is pretty darn light.

 

[bison13]

bjf my fiend and I were just saying the exact same thing during the game last night. Completely agree

 

[LemonEars]

Pedro, HRs notwithstanding, is a net negative to a "replacement level" player.

What I'd like to see, is the Buccos hold on to Walker and move him to 1B (he is NEARLY as poor at 2B - due to lack of range - as Pedro is at first)

Use Walker and Morse (against LHP) - Morse, you are right, is under contract for 2016 - at first until Bell is ready.

That gives you a lot more flexibility .....since, in a pinch, Walker could move to 2B, when they needed to rest Harrison (2B), Kang (3B), or Mercer (SS). Also gives you some insurance if Kang misses a significant amount of next spring (could live with Walker at 2B for a while, with Harrison playing everyday at 3B)
Assuming Bell is ready by June....you can then still get some value from Walker as a de facto "utility guy", since he could relieve Harrison at 2B, and allow Harrison to fill in where needed.

Pedro doesn't give you any of those options....and, if dealing with an AL club, Pedro may actually bring back more in return (he actually will probably cost a couple million less than Walker in arbitration as well....which would help in generating some return)


Not to mention....and I think this is worth consideration:

Walker is not the asshole that Pedro is.

Pedro is one of the most selfish ballplayers to wear a Bucco uniform since Bonds left (wouldn't go to winter ball to work at 1B, NEVER adjusts his approach to move guys over, put the ball in play, etc).
Walker - who I DO NOT think is worth the $$$ for an extension - is still one of the good guys (even though I think his skills are declining) and having him around for another year - maximizing his time in Pittsburgh - would, I think be the decent thing to do and best for all involved.
Heck, moving from 2B, and to a less "wear-and-tear" position may even lead to a jump in his offensive numbers.
Assuming Bell works out OK, let Walker go after the 2016 as a free agent and get one nice 2-4 year payday before he is no longer able to command a nice contract.

Completely agree. Great post.

 

[TheGLOV]

I don't remember much of his playing days, but Kevin Young had a pretty good offensive stretch between 1997 and 2000 where he hit between .258 and .300. He also had 91 homers in that 4 year stretch along with 376 rbi's. We'd probably be in 1st place if we could somehow just replace Pedro w/ him.

Ya mean Kevin Multiple Wives Young?

 

[androcles]

...OK, if you don't want Elbie how about another 40's Pirate...Babe Dahlgren?...

...a little bit of trivia...

...Babe was the player who replaced Lou Gehrig at 1B for the Yankees and ended his consecutive games streak...