BOHICA:

Discussion in 'BWI / McAndrew Board' started by stormingnorm, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. stormingnorm

    stormingnorm Well-Known Member
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  2. PeetzPoolBoy

    PeetzPoolBoy Well-Known Member
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    It would seem to be easy to circumvent the new policy. A student simply gets the cheapest Bronze Plan insurance available, provides evidence of insurance to PSU and then cancels the policy shortly thereafter.
     
  3. Cletus11

    Cletus11 Well-Known Member
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    What will PSU require next that students have in order to be able to enroll. If PSU wanted to help students without insurance get some cheap insurance (ie...just be able to tack onto essentially the existing PSU insurance policy and pay the cost of that policy), that is one thing. But requiring health insurance to enroll, what does that have to do with anything.
     
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  4. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    Is this the first time that PSU is requiring health insurance for students? If so, I'm surprised. We'd provided evidence of insurance for our children going back quite a way. Can say that we never had to prove a level of insurance dictated by the schools in question, just that they were insured by a reputable company.
     
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  5. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    Again, we went through something similar going back more than ten years ago. The difference, and it can be significant, is that the schools did not dictate coverage parameters.
     
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  6. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    Everyone in this country should have health insurance. Healthcare costs in the USA take up 25% of the GDP, yet we lag behind many countries with lower costs in the quality of care, access to care, and life expectancy. I see nothing wrong with requiring coverage or assisting those uninsured students with obtaining a low cost plan.
     
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  7. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    $2,600 is not a low cost plan for people in the 17-23 age bracket.
     
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  8. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    So, d'ya think the University will self-insure? Nah, that would never happen.:rolleyes:
     
  9. PeetzPoolBoy

    PeetzPoolBoy Well-Known Member
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    But....but....but it's labeled as a "Low-deductible Platinum Plan".:)

    What college student needs a "Platinum Plan"?
     
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  10. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    Exactly.
     
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  11. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    It says United Healthcare, but a lot of plans have the name of an insurer on it and said insurer is simply a plan administrator. The financial risks and rewards are borne by the employer or, in this case, a school.
     
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  12. cvilleelkscoach

    cvilleelkscoach Well-Known Member
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    This is not a surprise. Many universities have this requirement including OSU.
     
  13. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    What surprises me is that PSU took so long to get around to it. I do find the description of the "resources" PSU will offer students to help deal with the financing of this requirement amusing. No doubt, that's because I'm nothing more than a spectator.
     
  14. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    Not really. The bankruptcy comes after an uninsured student gets appendicitis or gets into a car accident. Try paying a hospital bill if you’re uninsured. Oh yeah, they’re all young and therefore healthy, so no worries.
     
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  15. Ten Thousan Marbles

    Ten Thousan Marbles Well-Known Member
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    Isn't there a larger discussion to be had here?
     
  16. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    Maybe PSU should require PIP coverage, too, and make available a "low cost" alternative to those students who don't have it or aren't, in PSU's estimation, adequately covered.
     
  17. Ten Thousan Marbles

    Ten Thousan Marbles Well-Known Member
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    This makes sense, because many and/or most foreign students and their families would not have had to purchase health insurance previously in their lives
     
  18. PeetzPoolBoy

    PeetzPoolBoy Well-Known Member
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    That’s why they apply for (and get auto-approved) highly-subsidized, after-the-incident insurance without any limitations as to pre-existing conditions:)
     
    18 PeetzPoolBoy, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  19. Keyser Soze 16801

    Keyser Soze 16801 Well-Known Member
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    [QUOTE="stormingnorm, post: 3541600, member: 83369"

    If Dambly or Lubert ran Car Dealerships, they would require all students to show "Proof of Reliable Personal transportation", since - after all - it is critical to PSU's Missions that students have reliable and safe transportation to and from campus.

    [/QUOTE]

    Of what health care companies are they owners? I loathe those 2 but is there any actual evidence that they or other trustees will benefit from this change?
     
  20. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    Of what health care companies are they owners? I loathe those 2 but is there any actual evidence that they or other trustees will benefit from this change?[/QUOTE]

    Evidence? If there is, they didn't do a particularly good job of hiding it.
     
  21. Ten Thousan Marbles

    Ten Thousan Marbles Well-Known Member
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    Root cause?
     
  22. 83wuzme

    83wuzme Well-Known Member
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    I can see this with students who are minors. But why should a University assume a parental role with persons who are not minors ?
     
  23. Nittany Ziggy

    Nittany Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    Is it possible that, maybe, just maybe, we would all be better off if nobody had insurance and we had market driven prices instead of prices negotiated by lowlife, scumbag attorneys from companies drawing billions of dollars of premiums from disparate client bases?

    Why does a visit to the dermatologist cost $500.00 if you are uninsured but the $500.00 is reduced to $75.00 ($35 co-pay, the rest covered by insurance) if you have a health insurance plan? There are no economies of scale involved here. The doctor looked at the pimple and gave you a shot to fix it. In one case, $500. In the other $75 (with a copay of $35 and the rest covered by Aetna). How is that right? It is the attorneys and insurance men driving up the costs for the uninsured.
     
    23 Nittany Ziggy, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  24. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    It is possible because Aetna has negotiated rates of compensation to thousands of networks of physicians and can cover their costs through the payment of premiums by the insured they represent. The individual uninsured have no leverage in an open market.

    If no one had health insurance only the rich would be able to receive medical care. The system is broken as I said in an earlier post about costs and quality, but it won’t get fixed by eliminating coverage. That is a gross over simplification to a a very complex public policy issue. Look at the differences in England between private coverage and the national health system. Do you really want to queue up for months waiting for an operation? Care will always go to those who can afford to pay, and won’t go to those you can’t. Same with drugs, medical devices, and disease research. We are better off with a single payer system with universal coverage, than a system where no one is insured and most would not be able to afford high quality medical care, the drugs and medical devices they need to survive, or the research to prevent and cure their diseases. When you have a heart attack, are you going to shop for the lowest cost Dr. to revive you? I hear there is a quack on the corner who will give you an oxygen tube for only $39.95. Maybe you can do better at Costco. They are running a special on coronary bypasses this week. Good luck with that.
     
    24 Nitwit, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  25. Nittany Ziggy

    Nittany Ziggy Well-Known Member
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  26. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    What I said was that Aetna negotiated the lower price for its insured population. If you’re uninsured you’re not eligible for the lower price. You are on your own. So maybe you can get a flu shot cheaper at CVS than your Dr will charge, but mostly a single uninsured individual has no negotiating strength for what he will be charged for medical care. A physicians network or hospital will negotiate with Aetna because it gives them access thousands of patients, but it doesn’t care about a single patient acting indivually.
     
    26 Nitwit, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  27. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    Believe the question here is why will the same doctor who ordinarily charges $500 for a procedure accept $75 for the same procedure? In this case there is no qualitative difference (same doctor, same timing). There is more to it than the doctor having "access" to a larger patient pool. Presumably he achieves an acceptable return at the lower price.
     
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  28. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    He charges $500 because he can. It’s simple as that. He has no incentive to lower the price for an uninsured patient.
     
  29. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    How many patients do you believe the doctor receives $500 from? Answer: none or close to it. Most have insurance. Those that don't because they can't afford it also can't afford the $500 fee (ever notice how the doctor's office confirms insurance coverage before your visit?).
     
  30. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    The bigger problem is that the consumer of medical services in large part has no idea what he's paying for them and that results in sub-optimal decision making and resource allocation.
     
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  31. ForesterGump

    ForesterGump Well-Known Member
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    I remember when there wasn't much insurance. I think my Dad got it in the late '50s or early '60s. It was hospitalization insurance back then. It wasn't a catchall medical, dental, vision plan. We could afford to go to the doctor's office, as he wasn't burdened by all the bureaucracy that went on. His office visit was $3 and he would see the whole family for that, and give you the drugs. He would come to the house for $5. Patient treatment was between the doctor and the patient. Outcomes were pretty good, considering the technology of the time.

    When insurance started to cover everything, costs escalated. The primary reason is that they industrialized medical care. Patient care and treatment is no longer between the doctor and patient, but between the doctor and the insurance company. Drug companies used the same avenue to push more drugs on the consumer. The consumer didn't object since there was no money out of pocket. Doctors used more tests to protect their butts, and because those tests can also be an income generator. If you can get someone else to pay the bill, who cares?

    The only time in this century that the rate of increase in medical costs slowed down was during the Recession. Amazing. The reason was fewer people had insurance. Making insurance either single payer or mandatory increases demand without increasing supply. Costs must go up.

    There are doctors that are starting to go into the direct primary care business model. They are not taking insurance, and they have reduced their costs by up to 40%. For better service, people can go to concierge doctors. They may or may not take insurance, but there is an annual fee. I'm also hearing that its cheaper to buy some of the drugs without insurance.

    I'm not saying that insurance should be abolished. I think you need catastrophic insurance. Whether there's insurance or not, rich people will always have the best care.
     
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  32. Art

    Art Well-Known Member
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    One of the major barriers to change are the cultural aspects you've described above. Those will not be changed easily.

    Nitwit suggests that doctors are willing to accept far less than MSRP from insurance companies because of access to a wider patient pool (insurance company subscribers). How can that be replaced? Have doctors publicly post rates for procedures. There is more to comprehensive reform of medical economics (unbundling the prepaid medical service and insurance components of medical insurance could be a Gordian knot), but who said it would be easy?
     
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  33. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Well-Known Member
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    I was required, as a Study Abroad student, in 1978 to have local (i.e., German) heath insurance--but it was part of the program fees/program arrangement. Some of my classmates made extensive use of it (dental was one thing it covered) before going home as it was a good plan. Turned out to be a good thing for me, too, as I got a nasty cut on my thumb (still have the scar) while hiking in the Black Forest later in the year. I just went to the local doc in a very small town (where a classmate of mine was working at a local hotel) in the Black Forest and he fixed me up--the only thing he needed was the insurance form.

    So I'm not against this requirement by PSU in the 2010s. The only issue I see is the potential conflict of interest.

    I'm also trying to figure out how it worked when I was in school. I had to use the Student Health system a couple of times (once was when I had a bad tooth issue that developed right before finals that led to a root canal). I don't recall paying much if anything for it and I don't recall any forms.
     
  34. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    There has been some decent discussion in this thread about how to fix the healthcare cost problem in the USA. I’ll just post a few more items and then bow out as this again is a very complex issue, and we could go on forever, but it won’t be solved on a message board.

    First, wellness programs work. If we didn’t get sick, our healthcare costs would be lower. It sounds simple but if we rode bikes as they do in Norway instead of driving everywhere, or if we ate the Japanese diet of rice and fish instead of smoking our meats at our tailgate, we would have a healthier population. Really, do we need a 12 oz hamburger in a restaurant? We’ve done a pretty good job of quitting smoking, but many still drink to excess in this county. Have you been through an airport lately and noticed the number of overweight people who need carts for mobility because they are unable to walk? We have an epidemic of type II diabetes. And it goes for children too. The unhealthy diets among young children lead to childhood obesity which leads to diabetes and that results in a lifetime of medical costs. French fries are the leading vegetable consumed by kids between 6 months and 2 years of age. The Happy Meal is easy on the parents, but is a bad healthcare choice for the kids. Of course part of the differences between countries are genetic. Latinos tend to be more overweight than Asians, etc. but as a nation, we can do better in taking care of our own health, and if we do the costs would be lower.

    Second, the largest proportion of healthcare costs in this county are incurred by the elderly. The time preceding death is very expensive. Elderly people need hospitalization far more often than the rest of the population. Are we keeping people alive too long? Diseases that used to kill people in their 50s and 60s have become chronic conditions that people can live with, albeit expensively, in their 70s and 80s. This is just the result of medical advances in research and technology that have enabled us as a county to keep our sick people alive. So there is a moral issue to be dealt with as well. How should we manage death in this country? How many many rounds of chemo should someone get before you give up and let them die? What if it was your parent? Or you?

    So there are programs like Medicare for the elderly, or Medicaid for the poor, the CHIP (children’s health insurance program), WIC (women infants children) to help with proper nutrition of expectant mothers, school breakfast and lunch programs to provide nutrition for poor children, and even the food stamp program, now called SNAP (supplemental nutrition assistance program) for poor families, and many others to attempt to deal with helping Americans lead healthy lives, or insuring their costs when they are sick.

    I won’t even get into the opioid crisis, the no helmet motorcycle laws, or other tangential issues which can impact the cost of healthcare. The Iowa game last year almost gave me a coronary❤️

    The one bright light in all of this is that, if you can afford it, America has the finest hospitals and best physicians in the world. Sure you can go to Mexico for their cheap dentistry, or to Brazil for cheap cosmetic surgery, but If you are sick, this is the county where you are able to get the best care and treatments, but it will be expensive. You only live once! And you only die once too.
     
    34 Nitwit, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  35. Nittany Ziggy

    Nittany Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, Nitwit, you pretty much pointed out all of the problems (or are they symptoms) with the current system. You’re solutions are simple too: BAN EVERYTHING! Thanks for bowing out, that was kind of you.
     
  36. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    I never suggested we ban anything. Where did I say that? I just made the correlation between a healthy lifestyle and medical costs. I’m all for letting people choose whether they want to be healthy or not. It’s something you have control over that can affect your medical costs. Now excuse me while I go get some pie for dessert.
     
  37. Nittany Ziggy

    Nittany Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    Don’t forget to cover it with vanilla ice cream and bacon bits.
    It did sound like you want to ban driving, smoking meats, 12oz burgers and French fries at a minimum.
     
  38. Nitwit

    Nitwit Well-Known Member
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    I’m generally opposed to the government over regulating our lives. Everything in moderation I suppose. We can make our own choices, but we should know there are consequences. So I left the ice cream and bacon bits off.
     
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  39. Nittany Ziggy

    Nittany Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    Good man! Please tell me that you will go on a “bacon bender” occasionally or, if you don’t favor smoked meats, a true bourbon bender will suffice! ;) LOL!!!
     
  40. ralphster

    ralphster Well-Known Member
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    I too am generally in favor of keeping government intervention out of our lives. However sometimes these libertarian ideas of autonomy are not as simplistic as you might imagine. For example, if one decides to exercise their so-called right to ride around on a motorcycle without a helmet and then smashes into a guardrail, who is it that picks up the tab? They may spend several months in the ICU racking up millions of dollars of charges, getting cared for by highly educated (well-paid) professionals and using million-dollar equipment. They they may spend months, years, or even a lifetime getting rehabilitative services. Who do you think will pay for this?:

    A) the guy on the motorcycle
    B) taxpayers
    C) the insurance company (driving up your premiums)
    D) the hospital (causing them to raise fees for everything else)

    Answer: probably not A.

    What really kills me is when I hear people talk about being against "government interference in their lives", but they have no problem taking advantage of society whenever they need help or they are ill or injured. Perhaps those who are against helmet laws should also be in favor of a rule that allows ambulances to bypass motorcycle accidents when the victim was not wearing a helmet. Right? Or maybe they should wear a special sticker on their license that indicates "I Ihave relinquished my right to spend millions of dollars of other folks money." Then the ER knows to just let them die.

    Maybe some of you so called "libertarians" are really "tax and spend other folks' money liberals" when it comes down to it!
     

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