Fair enough. I see no reason for debate anymore. After 8 years, this does seem like a pretty closed case.
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8 years ago today, the program was left for dead!!!
- Thread starter RTRMR
- Start date
Fair enough. I see no reason for debate anymore. After 8 years, this does seem like a pretty closed case.
IMO, there is no statute of limitations on treason.
No - there's no statue of limitations. But you need to prove the treason. Wick Sollers needs to produce his "indisputable evidence."
8 years.
96 months.
417+ weeks.
2,922 days.
70,128 hours.
4,207,680 minutes.
252,460,800 seconds.
All that time, and neither you, Wick, Jay or the other Paterno Loyalists have done it.
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It is amazing how my mindset changed from then to now.. I talk with Red Lion Cookie often about PSU. The thoughts just continue to be better.... From the beginning... our conversations...
Boy...I hope we can keep some players and win a couple games 3-4 maybe
It would be great if we could be 500.. have a winning season...
Dude.... Id take a bowl win... it would be awesome to finish that way
It would be great if we could get 8 wins... dang....
It would be great if we could get 9 wins....
If we could crack the top 20 so the highlights were on tv
We really need a big win... we are getting slapped by the good teams
It would be great to be ranked in the top 15
If we could split with the good teams... I can live with that...
I would love to win this bowl game and end in the top 10
I can not believe we won the Big 10
11 wins 2 of the last 3... finished in the top 10
These recruits are ridiculous... 4 stars all over
11 wins 3 of the last 4.... we could be really good on D next year
We need to crack into the final 4....have to beat OSU... has to happen.
This is team could really be great.....no glaring weakness.
The mindset of winning a couple games and being happy to top 10 and 11 win seasons and being happy. It is an insane transition.... BOB was right at the time and Franklin is great for PSU.... Franklin has some swagger and PSU is back...mentioned as one of the top 10 teams and certainly as exciting as ever. All of it.. the WhiteOUt... is off the chart... its all good... All the while... less and less talk of the past, sanctions etc... and the focus in on how good the football team is... You hear it less and less each year... will it ever go away...nope... but it is in the past....
Boy...I hope we can keep some players and win a couple games 3-4 maybe
It would be great if we could be 500.. have a winning season...
Dude.... Id take a bowl win... it would be awesome to finish that way
It would be great if we could get 8 wins... dang....
It would be great if we could get 9 wins....
If we could crack the top 20 so the highlights were on tv
We really need a big win... we are getting slapped by the good teams
It would be great to be ranked in the top 15
If we could split with the good teams... I can live with that...
I would love to win this bowl game and end in the top 10
I can not believe we won the Big 10
11 wins 2 of the last 3... finished in the top 10
These recruits are ridiculous... 4 stars all over
11 wins 3 of the last 4.... we could be really good on D next year
We need to crack into the final 4....have to beat OSU... has to happen.
This is team could really be great.....no glaring weakness.
The mindset of winning a couple games and being happy to top 10 and 11 win seasons and being happy. It is an insane transition.... BOB was right at the time and Franklin is great for PSU.... Franklin has some swagger and PSU is back...mentioned as one of the top 10 teams and certainly as exciting as ever. All of it.. the WhiteOUt... is off the chart... its all good... All the while... less and less talk of the past, sanctions etc... and the focus in on how good the football team is... You hear it less and less each year... will it ever go away...nope... but it is in the past....
You can’t possibly have that as a true opinion now after seeing the way other schools have handled similar situations. I can see why you may have thought so at the time but with the benefit of hindsight we know that was a flawed approach.
The silence is deafening and damning.....OSU,MSU and UofM. The answer for the difference in consequences .... the actions of their respective Board of Trustees.
I love Penn State football but I would rather see a losing season than plead guilty to a bunch of lies so we can “move on”. There has to be some integrity and truth among us or what is everything else worth? We may be better off as a healthy football team, is it worth the cost? The cost of crucifying good men for a winning team makes us no better than the “pay for play” teams we constantly speak out against. It is the world upside down.
I actually agree with much of this, to synthesis a bit, he also had very very good players at Penn State during 2012. Jordan Hill, Mike Mauti, Gerald Hodges, Zordich, Stephan Morris, Allen Robinson, DaQuon Jones just to name a few hanging around during those years. I still find it hard to believe we lost to Ohio and Virginia that year, yuck.
smh
I'm not going to get into a long reply, detailing the inaccuracies in your post, and the many facts that prove your approach was mistaken.
You 100% absolutely believe that the approach you advocated was correct. I 100% absolutely know that it was a huge mistake.
smh
This thread reminds me of: With the score X, 4th and whatever at the X with X left in the game! There would be all kinds of opinions! The one thing I do remember is, we only had the capability to punt 20 yds (I exaggerate) so O'B went for it on 4th down a hell of a lot!
I like @JmmyW 's thought-provoking hypothetical. It's an interesting take. Although, since we're talking hypothetically, I'd say that what Jimmy poses assumes a "change" in the action of just the NCAA and B1G, with PSU standing pat.
I wonder if maybe the lack of a threat of immediate sanctions would not have given PSU a chance to breathe and really take stock of the situation and what the options were. The OGBOT panicked, forgot what they knew about crisis management, and wanted to separate their TSM ties quickly and quietly. So, let's "what if" some things that could have - should have? - taken place in that time where they had some breathing room.
They could have had time to figure out the PR angles, such as they were. Yes, the PR ops were bad, but they had time to move the narrative with fresher evidence. They could have listened to the voices of the newly-elected A9, even. If the televised games wanted to talk it up, they could have had plenty to say in the pre-production meetings about the "PSU side" of where things stood. e.g. 'Old staff and admin are gone. Action taken. Let the courts decide the remaining legal cases.' Even a pre-emptive one-year bowl ban, and/or a moderate fine to a relevant organization without acknowledging guilt, etc.as a bit of a compromise to the angry public mob. Or how about 'We heard and appreciate what Freeh said, but we have also found out that what he concluded regarding a cover-up may not be accurate as we continue to look into the evidence.' Something where Rod could have rehearsed enough to not pee himself at the thought of feigning a workable backbone. (Or, putting someone other than Rod in place to actually lead and calm things down).
What ifs are often interesting (PSU vs. Nebraska on Jan. 1, 1995, for example!), but they can be played a number of ways. @JmmyW always has great insights and provides facts and offers excellent discussion points, as he does here. In this case, we can extend the hypothetical to 'what if our OGBOT didn't screw up every day for 8 or 9 months starting in Nov. 2011... or for 15 or 16 months starting in March 2011?'
I wonder if maybe the lack of a threat of immediate sanctions would not have given PSU a chance to breathe and really take stock of the situation and what the options were. The OGBOT panicked, forgot what they knew about crisis management, and wanted to separate their TSM ties quickly and quietly. So, let's "what if" some things that could have - should have? - taken place in that time where they had some breathing room.
They could have had time to figure out the PR angles, such as they were. Yes, the PR ops were bad, but they had time to move the narrative with fresher evidence. They could have listened to the voices of the newly-elected A9, even. If the televised games wanted to talk it up, they could have had plenty to say in the pre-production meetings about the "PSU side" of where things stood. e.g. 'Old staff and admin are gone. Action taken. Let the courts decide the remaining legal cases.' Even a pre-emptive one-year bowl ban, and/or a moderate fine to a relevant organization without acknowledging guilt, etc.as a bit of a compromise to the angry public mob. Or how about 'We heard and appreciate what Freeh said, but we have also found out that what he concluded regarding a cover-up may not be accurate as we continue to look into the evidence.' Something where Rod could have rehearsed enough to not pee himself at the thought of feigning a workable backbone. (Or, putting someone other than Rod in place to actually lead and calm things down).
What ifs are often interesting (PSU vs. Nebraska on Jan. 1, 1995, for example!), but they can be played a number of ways. @JmmyW always has great insights and provides facts and offers excellent discussion points, as he does here. In this case, we can extend the hypothetical to 'what if our OGBOT didn't screw up every day for 8 or 9 months starting in Nov. 2011... or for 15 or 16 months starting in March 2011?'
Even assuming arguendo you are correct about taking the hit and then Erickson working behind the scenes, the free agency provision of the consent degree made it absolutely, positively the wrong decision to accept it. It was entirely possible that we could have had 40 or 50 kids transfer. We wouldn't have a team. When the consent decree was signed, no one could anticipate that we would lose as few people as we did. The free agency provision alone was enough to tell the NCAA to stuff it. Because in reality, at the time, with the free agency, essentially it was a death penalty. It worked out in spite of President Sits Down to Pee, not because of him.
BS...should have fought back like O$U, MSU and others who actually did do something institutionally wrong. Nothing would have happened and PSU would likely be sitting much better right now. And with our honor intact!
As awesome as Franklin has been we are only back to the level that Joe left the program. And things appear to be stalling out a bit with this year’s recruiting. Franklin has had to do a whole bunch of right things just to get back to about the 50th percentile of Joe’s many seasons. We have a long way to go to be elite (Joe’s 80th percentile). And with football talent in PA evaporating before our eyes, the hill is getting steeper. That said, I am thrilled that CJF is leading the climb back!
Yeah, his offense was very advanced for the conference at the time.
Recall going into Iowa in 2012, rolling up 500+ yards of offense, and winning 38-14! That just doesn't happen very often. That offense would run some plays where the receiver ended up wide open -- no defender around. The schemes and coaching blew away the B1G for a period of time.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=322942294
No complaints with what BOB brought to the program during a very difficult time, and the transition to Franklin was the right thing to happen for the long run.
N to the O as sanctions should have never even been a consideration !!!
Consider this, jackass: In all of the evidence regarding the discussions and conduct of Joe, Curley, Schulz, and Spanier there is never mentioned the need to protect the football program. So what cause does the Big Ten and NCAA have to impose penalties?
Funny that all of these smart people who dealt with this case, the academics, the lawyers, politicians, journalists and business leaders overlooked that. Not surprise that a dumb fvck like you did.
There is a lot of speculation and opinion mixed in there with the "facts".
"During his tenure as OC the Pat's did not win a SB" - O'Brien was their offensive coordinator for one season, one in which they went 13-3, won the AFC, and lost in the Super Bowl. They had one of the highest scoring offenses in the NFL, but a pretty average defense. This season's performance is supposed to reflect negatively on O'Brien?
"When JM got fired and wanted to come back as OC of the Pat's, BOB was not offered a contract by NE. " - Is this a fact? McDaniels was fired in Denver a few months before O'Brien was named the Offensive Coordinator in NE. In fact, McDaniels took the job as the Rams OC before NE even hired O'Brien formally into the role. If McDaniels wanted to come back so badly, why wasn't he coaching in NE in 2011?
"Bill who needed a job" - you really believe that Bill O'Brien, as he was coaching NE on the path to the Super Bowl, "needed a job"? That's a fact?
I fondly remember the tight ends coming out of the backfield and being open in the flat all the time
and BOB allowed Matt McGloin to go full moxie and flash his big brass ones, which was really entertaining
oh...almost forgot to add that it took a few games to figure out but Zack Zwinak was like Alstott lite, that was pretty freaking sweet too
You climbed out of your hole in the test/politics board for this gem?
Do us a favor and climb back in
I pleasured myself for years to the Ohio U (MAC) victory in Obrien's debut.
Member how he looked crossing the field... towel and all? Like... "ohh shit... this really happened to me/us?".
Later that season, I watched Kent State beat Ohio U.
This year's KSU team, w future NFL QB, WR, K, would have probably made a good showing. Pisser it's cancelled.
Member how he looked crossing the field... towel and all? Like... "ohh shit... this really happened to me/us?".
Later that season, I watched Kent State beat Ohio U.
This year's KSU team, w future NFL QB, WR, K, would have probably made a good showing. Pisser it's cancelled.
Fair enough.
I do know this - I was pretty consistent in my optimism during the dark days of July & August 2012.
I was consistent even then in my belief that our best days were AHEAD of us, and not behind of us. I was pretty consistent even then in my belief that the next 10 years would be more successful than the last 10 years of the JoePa regime. I was pretty consistent even then in my belief that Penn State, as a university and as a football program, would be best served by looking forward instead of backwards.
And with the path we did follow, these things happened:
(1) we never risked any further sanctions from either the B1G or NCAA,
(2) we never risked expulsion from either of those organizations either,
(3) the sanctions were reduced very early, probably because we didn't complain or sue,
(4) we were B1G Champions within 53 months, and
(5) we have been a consistent NYD6 Bowl team over the 2016-2019 era.
(6) the University's reputation is in good shape. I attend quite a few road games a year, and I've lived in 3 different states (all not named Pennsylvania) in the 2012-2020 time period. It is rare that I hear trash talk about either the school or program. There will always be some clowns (e.g., some internet message board fans who have too much of their own self-esteem wrapped up in the achievements of a college football team) who will always define us by Sandusky and JoePa. But those clowns are irrelevant in the big picture.
We are, of course, a good bet to be near the top of the B1G in 2020 also, if there is a season.
Perhaps things would have been better in your alternate universe - we'll never know. So neither of us can definitively say that "I was right, and you were wrong."
But I do know that THIS universe, a universe that we DO inhabit as opposed to your theoretical alternate universe, is pretty good.
(perhaps CoronaVirus doesn't exist in your universe. That would be one good reason for trading universes.)
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To me it seemed the 2011 BOT didn’t forget anything about crisis management. Of course that doesn’t include the clueless board members who wouldn’t know a crisis from a crocus. The corporate board members used the corporate solution - accept blame, pay cash, get past the news cycle, and hope everyone forgets about it. Peetz made this clear when she said it would all be a distant memory by 2014.
However I do agree there was also an effort from the highest levels to cover up all connections with TSM. Public knowledge would have killed some political careers.
Combine all that with people like Corbett and Surma who wanted to settle personal scores. Nobody wanted to defend the university because they all were working their own angles. It was a complete and utter failure of leadership.
Yeah, BOB got good production out of Zwinak and then also got the most out of Bill Belton, after moving him from WR to RB.
Neither Zwinak nor Belton were at the same talent level of many RBs of the Franklin era.
If you accept blame for something you didn’t do and allow innocent people to be prosecuted, you my friend are morally bankrupt. That makes you no different than the scum who sold us down the river.
Team still had a lot of talent and probably would have been 10-2 in 2011 and 2012. Who knows, maybe even better with Urban at the helm!
Don't ever forget Delany in al of this either EVER
You need to get some facts straight and I wish I had time , but I will return but again you need to get some facts right Your a little off on some things
So did I For joe bots it was not the O they liked They prefer punting and D to scoring
