Roberto Clemente or Frank Robinson?

[john4psu]

Greetings. I got in a discussion about who was the better ballplayer, Roberto Clemente or Frank Robinson. In truth, one couldn't go wrong having either Hall of Famer, much like a debate of who you find the more attractive, Jennifer Anniston or Diane Lane.

I admit my bias to The Great One. However, I based my selection on the following criteria:

Who had more power: Robinson, not that Clemente was void of power but playing in cavernous Forbes Field, 457 feet to straightaway center field, it was wiser for Clemente to hit line drives.
Who hit for higher average: Clemente
Who had the better arm defensively: Clemente
Who was better defensively: Clemente
Who had more speed: Clemente
Who performed better in the clutch: Clemente (see '71 WS and Clemente had a hit in each of the 14 World Series games he appeared in '60 & '71, a 14-game World Series hitting streak if you will against excellent pitching.)

Thoughts from BWI's esteemed baseball experts? Thank you in advance.

 

[fairgambit]

I also have a Clemente bias, but trying to be as objective as possible, Clemente was the better player. That aside, even if they were equal, I would give edge to Clemente because he had language & cultural barriers to overcome and his problems with English led many media types to demean him and treat him like he was stupid. Through it all he maintained his dignity and never lashed out at his detractors. Finally, while this has nothing to do with baseball, he died while personally trying to help those suffering through an earthquake. How many athletes, in any sport, would do that today? I give the edge to Roberto. May he rest in peace.

 

[TTman]

I'm old enough to have see the great Roberto play in person. He was one of a kind! He had a flair for the game that Robinson could never match. Probably the best fielding outfielder I ever saw, complete with basket catches and an arm that we will never see the like of again. Nobody went from 1st to 3rd on a single to right, and a batter hitting a sharp drive to right often ran it out to first like it was a infield grounder, because the throw from right would be right behind him if he rounded the turn towards 2nd. Roberto, you left us way too soon!

 

[Mister Magoo]

Greetings. I got in a discussion about who was the better ballplayer, Roberto Clemente or Frank Robinson. In truth, one couldn't go wrong having either Hall of Famer, much like a debate of who you find the more attractive, Jennifer Anniston or Diane Lane.

I admit my bias to The Great One. However, I based my selection on the following criteria:

Who had more power: Robinson, not that Clemente was void of power but playing in cavernous Forbes Field, 457 feet to straightaway center field, it was wiser for Clemente to hit line drives.
Who hit for higher average: Clemente
Who had the better arm defensively: Clemente
Who was better defensively: Clemente
Who had more speed: Clemente
Who performed better in the clutch: Clemente (see '71 WS and Clemente had a hit in each of the 14 World Series games he appeared in '60 & '71, a 14-game World Series hitting streak if you will against excellent pitching.)

Thoughts from BWI's esteemed baseball experts? Thank you in advance.

1. Who cares about higher avg? Who had higher obp? Robinson .372 to .359
2. Better arm and defense Clemente from what I've read. Only saw very little of each.
3. Robinson had 204 steals to Roberto's 83. Not so sure about speed.
4. Robinson had a higher post-season OPS .887 TO .803 Scratch clutch off your list.
5. I'll take the significant edge in power over the significant edge in defense. 586 hr to 240 and 1812 rbi to 1305. Robinson won 2 MVP's, came in 2nd twice and 4th twice. Clemente has 1 mvp, 1 3rd and 1 5th.

 

[auxgym]

1. Who cares about higher avg? Who had higher obp? Robinson .372 to .359
2. Better arm and defense Clemente from what I've read. Only saw very little of each.
3. Robinson had 204 steals to Roberto's 83. Not so sure about speed.
4. Robinson had a higher post-season OPS .887 TO .803 Scratch clutch off your list.
5. I'll take the significant edge in power over the significant edge in defense. 586 hr to 240 and 1812 rbi to 1305. Robinson won 2 MVP's, came in 2nd twice and 4th twice. Clemente has 1 mvp, 1 3rd and 1 5th.

I'll take the guy that died heop

 

[auxgym]

I'll take the guy that died helping others in need.

 

[Mister Magoo]

I'll take the guy that died helping others in need.

The question is who was the better ballplayer. I've also read that sometimes Clemente's teammates thought he didn't play when he should have. I heard Mazeroski say it on a show. Robinson was a tough hard-nosed competitor and unquestionably the team leader on every team he was on. I've heard Palmer and Brooks Robinson mention that his coming to Baltimore is what turned their org. around.

 

[Coultr77]

1. Who cares about higher avg? Who had higher obp? Robinson .372 to .359
2. Better arm and defense Clemente from what I've read. Only saw very little of each.
3. Robinson had 204 steals to Roberto's 83. Not so sure about speed.
4. Robinson had a higher post-season OPS .887 TO .803 Scratch clutch off your list.
5. I'll take the significant edge in power over the significant edge in defense. 586 hr to 240 and 1812 rbi to 1305. Robinson won 2 MVP's, came in 2nd twice and 4th twice. Clemente has 1 mvp, 1 3rd and 1 5th.

Clemente had 12 Gold Gloves to Robinsons 1
Clemente was a 4 time NL batting Champion to Robinsons 0
Robinson also played 4 additional seasons
Clemente is in the 3,000 hit club

 

[Mister Magoo]

Clemente had 12 Gold Gloves to Robinsons 1
Clemente was a 4 time NL batting Champion to Robinsons 0
Robinson also played 4 additional seasons
Clemente is in the 3,000 hit club

Batting avg. is irrelevant. OBP is more important. I said Clemente was significantly better defensively. Big deal 3000 hits. Robinson had 2943. And, he had a grand total of 185 ab's his last two years as player/manager. First African-American manager I might add.

 

[john4psu]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how Clemente did against four 20-game winners (a HOFer in Jim Palmer) and how Robinson fared against the likes of Steve Blass, Nellie Briles, Luke Walker and Bruce Kison when it mattered most.

 

[Mister Magoo]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how Clemente did against four 20-game winners (a HOFer in Jim Palmer) and how Robinson fared against the likes of Steve Blass, Nellie Briles, Luke Walker and Bruce Kison when it mattered most.

I mentioned Robinson has a higher post-season OPS.

 

[fairgambit]

I mentioned Robinson has a higher post-season OPS.

Yes, but Clemente was higher in the World Series at .918 to Robinson's .903, and when they went head to head in the 71' Series, Robinson's OPS was .877 and Clemente was 1.210 (not a typo). In addition, Clemente hit .318 in the post-season, including .362 in the World Series. Robinson was at .238 post-season and .250 World Series. Head to head in the the 71' Series, Clemente hit .414 and Robinson .280. Of course, we could go round and round with this stat or that. Both were great players and I'd love to have either (or better yet, both) on my team. If I can only have one, it's Clemente.

 

[jj410]

Greetings. I got in a discussion about who was the better ballplayer, Roberto Clemente or Frank Robinson. In truth, one couldn't go wrong having either Hall of Famer, much like a debate of who you find the more attractive, Jennifer Anniston or Diane Lane.

I admit my bias to The Great One. However, I based my selection on the following criteria:

Who had more power: Robinson, not that Clemente was void of power but playing in cavernous Forbes Field, 457 feet to straightaway center field, it was wiser for Clemente to hit line drives.
Who hit for higher average: Clemente
Who had the better arm defensively: Clemente
Who was better defensively: Clemente
Who had more speed: Clemente
Who performed better in the clutch: Clemente (see '71 WS and Clemente had a hit in each of the 14 World Series games he appeared in '60 & '71, a 14-game World Series hitting streak if you will against excellent pitching.)

Thoughts from BWI's esteemed baseball experts? Thank you in advance.

Are you kidding?
Ridiculous.
I saw them both play and it's Frank Robinson by a mile.
The idea that Clemente, who was a line drive hitter, was more powerful is beyond laughable. They painted seats in stadiums to show how far Robinson hit them.
Only Pirate fans think otherwise.
Clemente was better on defense, but Robinson was a far superior hitter.
Robinson had 586 HRs. Clemente 240.
Robinson OBP .389. Clemente .359.
Robinson SLG .537. Clemente .475.
Robinson OPS .926. Clemente .834.
Robinson RBI 1812. Clemente 1305.
Robinson SB 204. Clemente 83.
Robinson MVP 2. Clemente 1.
Robinson Wins above Replacement 24th all time, Clemente 39th.
Robinson offensive WAR 15th, Clemente 54th.

 

[Fac]

Good thread ahh I mean topic, now who was better Horace Clarke or Mario Mendoza?

I'll go with Mendoza as he has a hitters milestone named after him.

 

[Mister Magoo]

Good thread ahh I mean topic, now who was better Horace Clarke or Mario Mendoza?

I'll go with Mendoza as he has a hitters milestone named after him.

Horace Clarke was like Ted Williams compared to Mendoza. OPS .621 TO .507 and BA .256 TO .215.

 

[acksallstars]

Robinson!

 

[fairgambit]

Are you kidding?
Ridiculous.
I saw them both play and it's Frank Robinson by a mile.
The idea that Clemente, who was a line drive hitter, was more powerful is beyond laughable. They painted seats in stadiums to show how far Robinson hit them.
Only Pirate fans think otherwise.
Clemente was better on defense, but Robinson was a far superior hitter.
Robinson had 586 HRs. Clemente 240.
Robinson OBP .389. Clemente .359.
Robinson SLG .537. Clemente .475.
Robinson OPS .926. Clemente .834.
Robinson RBI 1812. Clemente 1305.
Robinson SB 204. Clemente 83.
Robinson MVP 2. Clemente 1.
Robinson Wins above Replacement 24th all time, Clemente 39th.
Robinson offensive WAR 15th, Clemente 54th.

I also saw both play also and I disagree. You barely mention defense where Clemente won 12 Gold Gloves and Robinson only 1. Clemente won dozens of games on the strength of his arm alone. You cite statistics you like but leave off ones that don't suit you....Clemente was a lifetime .317 hitter...Robinson .294. Clemente won 4 batting titles, Robinson 1. I could offer further debate but I will not because, for me, you lose all credibility by using words like "ridiculous" and "Robinson by a mile". If it is Robinson, and I respect the opinions of those who think so, it is not "by a mile". That is ridiculous.

 

[GulfCoastLion]

s

1. Who cares about higher avg? Who had higher obp? Robinson .372 to .359
2. Better arm and defense Clemente from what I've read. Only saw very little of each.
3. Robinson had 204 steals to Roberto's 83. Not so sure about speed.
4. Robinson had a higher post-season OPS .887 TO .803 Scratch clutch off your list.
5. I'll take the significant edge in power over the significant edge in defense. 586 hr to 240 and 1812 rbi to 1305. Robinson won 2 MVP's, came in 2nd twice and 4th twice. Clemente has 1 mvp, 1 3rd and 1 5th.

Hey in no way am I going to talk negatively about Frank Robinson. I saw both players play and both were outstanding all time great players. I can only defend Clemente were he needs to be defended. Stats are obviously one key barometer and both played in the same era. No doubt Robinson had the better power stats and it has already been pointed out that Clemente played most of his career in what was considered toughest/longest ballpark in the National League for right hand hitters, Forbes Field. Clemente absolutely adjusted his swing accordingly and often went to the power alleys with incredible power and line drive capability and could hit a ball as hard and as far as about anyone in his era. All you have to do is read about his exploits from other power hitters from his era to understand that he had outstanding power. He didn't play in Atlanta as a comparison, which was considered one of the easiest, best ballparks for HR's...... The Pirates were often the best hitting team in the NL during his era and they essentially never stole bases. Clemente hit in front of Willie Stargell most of his career and rarely attempted to steal a base. That is why his SB's are low. He had incredible speed and could run the bases with lighting speed and explosion. My guess is he was definitely faster than Frank Robinson, but gauging it by SB stats would never depict that. Same for Henry Aaron, he stole far more bases than Clemente, but no way was he faster than Clemente. As for his arm, he had the best of his era and likely the best of all time from the outfield, which has been attested to by many, many baseball pundits and players of that era and others...... There are a few mentioned in his league, but Frank Robinson is not one of them regarding throwing a baseball. Frank Robinson was one of the best hitters/power hitters of his era and 2 time MVP for his exploits with the Reds and Orioles, so no denying his greatness. Lastly they met in the 1971 World Series and its on the record who was MVP in leading his team to the World Series over the (4) 20 game winner Baltimore Oriole pitching staff. I should also add Clemente died while still on top of his game statistically and likely had 3-4 years of outstanding production if he continued to play, since he showed little signs of lost production, although played less due to injuries. He athletically looked like he was still 25 years old at the age of 38.

 

[Mister Magoo]

You're losing me at Batting Avg. Totally irrelevant. OBP is more important.

 

[Coultr77]

You're losing me at Batting Avg. Totally irrelevant. OBP is more important.

You sir have a one track mind, leading directly to Crazyville

 

[Mister Magoo]

You sir have a one track mind, leading directly to Crazyville

I'm into stats. Key to offensive baseball is to not make outs. I have never read an article that says BA is more important than OBP. I can find thousands arguing OBP is more important.

 

[fairgambit]

s

Hey in no way am I going to talk negatively about Frank Robinson. I saw both players play and both were outstanding all time great players. I can only defend Clemente were he needs to be defended. Stats are obviously one key barometer and both played in the same era. No doubt Robinson had the better power stats and it has already been pointed out that Clemente played most of his career in what was considered toughest/longest ballpark in the National League for right hand hitters, Forbes Field. Clemente absolutely adjusted his swing accordingly and often went to the power alleys with incredible power and line drive capability and could hit a ball as hard and as far as about anyone in his era. All you have to do is read about his exploits from other power hitters from his era to understand that he had outstanding power. He didn't play in Atlanta as a comparison, which was considered one of the easiest, best ballparks for HR's...... The Pirates were often the best hitting team in the NL during his era and they essentially never stole bases. Clemente hit in front of Willie Stargell most of his career and rarely attempted to steal a base. That is why his SB's are low. He had incredible speed and could run the bases with lighting speed and explosion. My guess is he was definitely faster than Frank Robinson, but gauging it by SB stats would never depict that. Same for Henry Aaron, he stole far more bases than Clemente, but no way was he faster than Clemente. As for his arm, he had the best of his era and likely the best of all time from the outfield, which has been attested to by many, many baseball pundits and players of that era and others...... There are a few mentioned in his league, but Frank Robinson is not one of them regarding throwing a baseball. Frank Robinson was one of the best hitters/power hitters of his era and 2 time MVP for his exploits with the Reds and Orioles, so no denying his greatness. Lastly they met in the 1971 World Series and its on the record who was MVP in leading his team to the World Series over the (4) 20 game winner Baltimore Oriole pitching staff. I should also add Clemente died while still on top of his game statistically and likely had 3-4 years of outstanding production if he continued to play, since he showed little signs of lost production, although played less due to injuries. He athletically looked like he was still 25 years old at the age of 38.

Well stated.

 

[Coultr77]

I'm into stats. Key to offensive baseball is to not make outs. I have never read an article that says BA is more important than OBP. I can find thousands arguing OBP is more important.

U r missing the point best player not best hitter and to that not best one stat.

 

[Mister Magoo]

U r missing the point best player not best hitter and to that not best one stat.

Right. Slugging is even more important than OBP. Frank Robinson wasn't Manny Ramirez in the OF. Clemente would have had to have saved 25-30 runs per year more than Robinson to be his equal.

 

[Coultr77]

Right. Slugging is even more important than OBP. Frank Robinson wasn't Manny Ramirez in the OF. Clemente would have had to have saved 25-30 runs per year more than Robinson to be his equal.

You do realize that the game has changed over the years and even if Robinson was a better offensive player it is not a landslide victory. When the topic is best ballplayer, not hitter you have to look at the defensive side of things and that is definitely a landslide for Clemente

 

[jj410]

Right. Slugging is even more important than OBP. Frank Robinson wasn't Manny Ramirez in the OF. Clemente would have had to have saved 25-30 runs per year more than Robinson to be his equal.

No fielder is worth a lot of games, especially a left or right fielder. Defensive WAR stats indicate that Clemente might have been worth a couple games more than Robinson per season. Offense, especially power, is far more important for an outfielder.
Clemente's greatest asset as a fielder was his great arm. But the best defensive outfielders on a team, especially in a big park like Forbes, play center field, which Clemente never did. So most of the time he probably wasn't even the best outfielder on the team.
Clemente was a notorious bad ball hitter. That's why Robinson had about twice as many walks (1420 to 621), hence Clemente's BA was higher but that is the only offensive stat he led in.
Contemporaries would have laughed at anyone saying Clemente was better: In MVP voting Robinson finished first twice, third twice and fourth twice. Clemente finished first once, third once and fourth once. In "career shares" Robinson was 12th all-time and Clemente was 42nd all-time.
You really have to be a diehard Pirates fan to think a team would rather have Clemente than Robinson. Clemente was never considered the equal of Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Musial or even Robinson, until he died a martyr's death, and then only in the minds of the public that doesn't know baseball but knows a great story.

 

[EPC FAN]

Clemente had 12 Gold Gloves to Robinsons 1
Clemente was a 4 time NL batting Champion to Robinsons 0
Robinson also played 4 additional seasons
Clemente is in the 3,000 hit club

Robinson won the MVP in BOTH Leagues. He also won a Triple Crown.

 

[jj410]

s

Hey in no way am I going to talk negatively about Frank Robinson. I saw both players play and both were outstanding all time great players. I can only defend Clemente were he needs to be defended. Stats are obviously one key barometer and both played in the same era. No doubt Robinson had the better power stats and it has already been pointed out that Clemente played most of his career in what was considered toughest/longest ballpark in the National League for right hand hitters, Forbes Field. Clemente absolutely adjusted his swing accordingly and often went to the power alleys with incredible power and line drive capability and could hit a ball as hard and as far as about anyone in his era. All you have to do is read about his exploits from other power hitters from his era to understand that he had outstanding power. He didn't play in Atlanta as a comparison, which was considered one of the easiest, best ballparks for HR's...... The Pirates were often the best hitting team in the NL during his era and they essentially never stole bases. Clemente hit in front of Willie Stargell most of his career and rarely attempted to steal a base. That is why his SB's are low. He had incredible speed and could run the bases with lighting speed and explosion. My guess is he was definitely faster than Frank Robinson, but gauging it by SB stats would never depict that. Same for Henry Aaron, he stole far more bases than Clemente, but no way was he faster than Clemente. As for his arm, he had the best of his era and likely the best of all time from the outfield, which has been attested to by many, many baseball pundits and players of that era and others...... There are a few mentioned in his league, but Frank Robinson is not one of them regarding throwing a baseball. Frank Robinson was one of the best hitters/power hitters of his era and 2 time MVP for his exploits with the Reds and Orioles, so no denying his greatness. Lastly they met in the 1971 World Series and its on the record who was MVP in leading his team to the World Series over the (4) 20 game winner Baltimore Oriole pitching staff. I should also add Clemente died while still on top of his game statistically and likely had 3-4 years of outstanding production if he continued to play, since he showed little signs of lost production, although played less due to injuries. He athletically looked like he was still 25 years old at the age of 38.

This entire post is ludicrous but has been mostly dealt with.
Regarding SBs: It's silly to say Clemente is underrated because he had Stargell behind him. Hitting in front of a good hitter HELPS a player.
Robinson hit in front of Johnny Bench much of his career, so both had similar hitting advantages and a stealing disadvantage.
But if Clemente was such a great base stealer, why did he steal only 83 bases and GET CAUGHT 43 times? Robinson was probably a smarter base runner, and had superior stats: 204 SBs, caught 77 times, which is a much better % that actually HELPED his team
In fact, you have to have a two-thirds success rate to not hurt your team, and Clemente is under the borderline. so at best he didn't help or hurt.
The argument that "he would have been greater if..." never cuts it. It's the same bogus argument of the clueless romantics who think Williams should be rated over Ruth because he was in the military. Clemente gets the same consideration because he died tragically. Next we're going to hear Thurmond Munson was the greatest Yankee catcher. What about the players who were late bloomers or had to wait behind a star? What about the players with career ending injuries? Should Koufax be "the greatest pitcher" since his bad arm ended his career?

 

[EPC FAN]

This entire post is ludicrous but has been mostly dealt with.
Regarding SBs: It's silly to say Clemente is underrated because he had Stargell behind him. Hitting in front of a good hitter HELPS a player.
Robinson hit in front of Johnny Bench much of his career, so both had similar hitting advantages and a stealing disadvantage.
But if Clemente was such a great base stealer, why did he steal only 83 bases and GET CAUGHT 43 times? Robinson was probably a smarter base runner, and had superior stats: 204 SBs, caught 77 times, which is a much better % that actually HELPED his team
In fact, you have to have a two-thirds success rate to not hurt your team, and Clemente is under the borderline. so at best he didn't help or hurt.
The argument that "he would have been greater if..." never cuts it. It's the same bogus argument of the clueless romantics who think Williams should be rated over Ruth because he was in the military. Clemente gets the same consideration because he died tragically. Next we're going to hear Thurmond Munson was the greatest Yankee catcher. What about the players who were late bloomers or had to wait behind a star? What about the players with career ending injuries? Should Koufax be "the greatest pitcher" since his bad arm ended his career?

Speaking of a ludicrous post. Frank Robinson NEVER played on the same team with Johnny Bench.

 

[jj410]

Greetings. I got in a discussion about who was the better ballplayer, Roberto Clemente or Frank Robinson. In truth, one couldn't go wrong having either Hall of Famer, much like a debate of who you find the more attractive, Jennifer Anniston or Diane Lane.

I admit my bias to The Great One. However, I based my selection on the following criteria:

Who had more power: Robinson, not that Clemente was void of power but playing in cavernous Forbes Field, 457 feet to straightaway center field, it was wiser for Clemente to hit line drives.
Who hit for higher average: Clemente
Who had the better arm defensively: Clemente
Who was better defensively: Clemente
Who had more speed: Clemente
Who performed better in the clutch: Clemente (see '71 WS and Clemente had a hit in each of the 14 World Series games he appeared in '60 & '71, a 14-game World Series hitting streak if you will against excellent pitching.)

Thoughts from BWI's esteemed baseball experts? Thank you in advance.

By the way: To add to the Robinson advantages, Clemente was never considered a great team player. For example, in an interview with Bob Prince, he said he never wore his 1960 WS ring because Dick Groat won the MVP rather than him. Frank Robinson was considered a clubhouse leader on every team he played on. Both suffered from racism, but it has been said that it turned Clemente temperamental and pouty. It just made Robinson more aggressive.

 

[GulfCoastLion]

This entire post is ludicrous but has been mostly dealt with.
Regarding SBs: It's silly to say Clemente is underrated because he had Stargell behind him. Hitting in front of a good hitter HELPS a player.
Robinson hit in front of Johnny Bench much of his career, so both had similar hitting advantages and a stealing disadvantage.
But if Clemente was such a great base stealer, why did he steal only 83 bases and GET CAUGHT 43 times? Robinson was probably a smarter base runner, and had superior stats: 204 SBs, caught 77 times, which is a much better % that actually HELPED his team
In fact, you have to have a two-thirds success rate to not hurt your team, and Clemente is under the borderline. so at best he didn't help or hurt.
The argument that "he would have been greater if..." never cuts it. It's the same bogus argument of the clueless romantics who think Williams should be rated over Ruth because he was in the military. Clemente gets the same consideration because he died tragically. Next we're going to hear Thurmond Munson was the greatest Yankee catcher. What about the players who were late bloomers or had to wait behind a star? What about the players with career ending injuries? Should Koufax be "the greatest pitcher" since his bad arm ended his career?

I never stated that Clemente was a smarter base runner, or could have been a better base stealer, simply that he rarely stole bases and that the Pirates rarely stole bases. That was how Danny Murtaugh managed his teams. I stated he hit in front of Willie Stargell only to suggest another reason why the Pirates rarely stole bases and Clemente was no different. They did have Maury Wills come over from the Dodgers late in his career and leadoff and play 3b in 1967, 1968 and he stole some bases, but way less than he ever did as a Dodger. Lastly, I did state that I believe Clemente was faster than Robinson and Aaron and I stand by that statement. No proof, but I don't think many would argue that point. Willie Mays was likely as fast, or perhaps faster than Clemente in his prime. I saw these players play, so I'm going by what I saw. I also don't contest Robinson's better power and power production numbers.

 

[jj410]

Speaking of a ludicrous post. Frank Robinson NEVER played on the same team with Johnny Bench.

My bad. But it makes Robinson's hitting superiority even more obvious. And Clemente's mediocre base running, despite his speed, remains.

 

[jj410]

I never stated that Clemente was a smarter base runner, or could have been a better base stealer, simply that he rarely stole bases and that the Pirates rarely stole bases. That was how Danny Murtaugh managed his teams. I stated he hit in front of Willie Stargell only to suggest another reason why the Pirates rarely stole bases and Clemente was no different. They did have Maury Wills come over from the Dodgers late in his career and leadoff and play 3b in 1967, 1968 and he stole some bases, but way less than he ever did as a Dodger. Lastly, I did state that I believe Clemente was faster than Robinson and Aaron and I stand by that statement. No proof, but I don't think many would argue that point. Willie Mays was likely as fast, or perhaps faster than Clemente in his prime. I saw these players play, so I'm going by what I saw. I also don't contest Robinson's better power and power production numbers.

He was probably faster but probably not smarter and almost certainly less of a team player.
Also, his poor results in stealing bases cannot be explained away - if anything, his success % should be higher as the pitchers had to concentrate on Stargell and he tried to steal so infrequently.
Maybe he didn't want to steal much because he was afraid of being hurt, as he was a notorious hypochondriac, something you could never say about Robinson, who was known to crowd the plate and get hit by a pitch on purpose. Robinson was hit by a pitch 198 times, Clemente 35.
(Lest I be misunderstood in all this, I think Clemente was a great and exciting player, may have had the best outfield arm ever and overcame a lot of disadvantages of a black from PR. I once saw him face Sandy Koufax - he was the only player in the lineup that could hit him, everything else was a bad mismatch.)

 

[todd brewster]

And the winners are Mr. Magoo and jj410.

BTW, Hank Aaron was probably faster than Roberto and in the 60's a much better base stealer.

 

[auxgym]

Clemente is regarded by many astute baseball people as the greatest right fielder of all time, Frank is not referred as such at his positions.

"He gave the term 'complete' a new meaning. He made the word 'superstar' seem inadequate. He had about him the touch of royalty." - Baseball Commissioner Bowie Kuhn (1973 eulogy)

Do we need to say more?

Ok. One more.

"The big thing about (Roberto) Clemente is that he can hit any pitch. I don't mean only strikes. He can hit a ball off his ankles or off his ear." -Hall of Fame pitcher Juan Marichal

 

[GulfCoastLion]

The real issue in debating all time players from eras gone by, or even from different eras is that it becomes insane to try to dogmatically claim one is better than the other, especially when they are without question among the greatest professional athletes/players during their era. Comparing Frank Robinson to Roberto Clemente is akin to comparing Franco Harris to Tony Dorsett, or Oscar Robertson to Jerry West, or Phil Esposito to Bobby Hull..... Bottom line these are all time great, hall of fame ~ first ballot players (Clemente was actually voted in immediately after his untimely death).... Of course there are give and takes, i.e. power vs. batting average vs. speed vs. base running vs. OBP vs. defensive prowess vs. team player vs. throwing arm, vs.....etc................. Two of the greatest MLB players to ever play the game.

Some good debate when it's all said and done, but fairly insane to even argue one is better than the other IMO......

 

[WDLion]

Greetings. I got in a discussion about who was the better ballplayer, Roberto Clemente or Frank Robinson. In truth, one couldn't go wrong having either Hall of Famer, much like a debate of who you find the more attractive, Jennifer Anniston or Diane Lane.

I admit my bias to The Great One. However, I based my selection on the following criteria:

Who had more power: Robinson, not that Clemente was void of power but playing in cavernous Forbes Field, 457 feet to straightaway center field, it was wiser for Clemente to hit line drives.
Who hit for higher average: Clemente
Who had the better arm defensively: Clemente
Who was better defensively: Clemente
Who had more speed: Clemente
Who performed better in the clutch: Clemente (see '71 WS and Clemente had a hit in each of the 14 World Series games he appeared in '60 & '71, a 14-game World Series hitting streak if you will against excellent pitching.)

Thoughts from BWI's esteemed baseball experts? Thank you in advance.

How many home runs would Robinson have hit if he played half his games in this ball park? How many would Clemente have hit if he played half his games in Crosley Field and Memorial Stadium?
That 365' down the left field line also had to clear a 30' high scoreboard. In right field there was a 40' high screen that ran from the foul pole to the end of the bleachers.

 

[Mixolydian]

The real issue in debating all time players from eras gone by, or even from different eras is that it becomes insane to try to dogmatically claim one is better than the other, especially when they are without question among the greatest professional athletes/players during their era. Comparing Frank Robinson to Roberto Clemente is akin to comparing Franco Harris to Tony Dorsett, or Oscar Robertson to Jerry West, or Phil Esposito to Bobby Hull..... Bottom line these are all time great, hall of fame ~ first ballot players (Clemente was actually voted in immediately after his untimely death).... Of course there are give and takes, i.e. power vs. batting average vs. speed vs. base running vs. OBP vs. defensive prowess vs. team player vs. throwing arm, vs.....etc................. Two of the greatest MLB players to ever play the game.

Some good debate when it's all said and done, but fairly insane to even argue one is better than the other IMO......

Exactly. Nothing else really needs to be said.

 

[fairgambit]

I'm into stats. Key to offensive baseball is to not make outs. I have never read an article that says BA is more important than OBP. I can find thousands arguing OBP is more important.

It doesn't matter if it's more important. It's one barometer of greatness.

How many home runs would Robinson have hit if he played half his games in this ball park? How many would Clemente have hit if he played half his games in Crosley Field and Memorial Stadium?
That 365' down the left field line also had to clear a 30' high scoreboard. In right field there was a 40' high screen that ran from the foul pole to the end of the bleachers.

EXCELLENT!

 

[WDLion]

It doesn't matter if it's more important. It's one barometer of greatness.

EXCELLENT!

Another interesting stat. Clemente hit 82 home runs in Forbes, 25 in Crosley.
Pretty telling considering the difference in games played in those venues.